Dispelling the Loosh myth

[Korpo]

Yesterday morning something came together for me, from something I've read years ago; Monroe's story about the "Loosh" garden, and the theosophic material I've been reading for quite a while. I hadn't thought about the Loosh story for quite a long while, but in a moment of quiet it came back to me and made sense in a new way.

Monroe had received the story as an information download. It's supposed to be some introductory information about the Earth learning system. Supposedly the purpose the system exists is to create a substance name Loosh of an ever-refined quantity. Plants, animals and finally humans were put into the garden to produce that substance (which equals unselfish love pretty much), and then it's “transported off” somewhere where it's a valuable commodity or something.

The Loosh story I've seen from time to time referenced as a fear-based scenario, similarly to "The Matrix",with the same message. 'See, they're using us!' Though it tells us nothing about who 'they' are and we cannot assess the accuracy of the information. An information download of this kind is said to be as accurate as the receiver allows for. Partial download and distortion of the information are to be expected with someone who is learning this skill – remember this is from Monroe's second book. To verify that Monroe was still evolving those skills one has only to look at “Journeys out of Body,” his first book, which is full of undecoded symbolism. But that was what Monroe was *seeing* (with his own astral eyes) at that point!

The theosophic idea about how we learn and grow as humans is as follows:

Material I haven't reviewed much yet says that before we become humans there's for example evolution in the plant and animal kingdoms. Then, a causal body is formed as our permanent soul, for as long as we incarnate as humans. This is supposedly the first time one has an individual soul.

The process of incarnation works like this: the causal body extends part of itself into the lower planes and a mental body is formed around that, then an astral body, finally an etheric body, which then becomes a blueprint for our growing physical body. This process is called 'involution',  whereas spirit comes into matter. Each lifetime brings new lower bodies, and each lifetime is a new mix of energies.

The purpose of all this is to learn and grow as a human, to experience certain lessons. The lower bodies are temporary vehicles for this purpose while the causal body is the permanent storehouse for the wisdom gained from each lifetime. Almost every lifetime contributes something to the growth of this soul or causal body.

Now, here's the thing. The causal body is only affected by the higher energies, for lack of a better word. Unselfish love, for example. Whenever a human serves the greater good, or commits an unselfish act, and so on, it's causal body stores that and it is positive growth from that particular lifetime. The causal body is not affected the other way round by negative emotions, so, even if many incarnations experience very little of these unselfish moments, the soul will grow.

So far, the story is rather similar to the Loosh story; some entity needs something from us, and this higher, refined quality is transmitted to it and stored there. But there are several vital differences that change the meaning of the story a lot for me.

First and foremost, seeing the soul and the incarnate as different entities is just half of the story, one possible viewpoint. But the soul and its incarnate are one. In fact, in later stages of soul evolution it can happen, and will happen ever more often, that an incarnate gets so aligned with its soul that it accesses the causal body more and more and finally gets totally identified with its soul. From this day on the incarnate will basically be his soul in a body on this planet, there is no more difference.

As causal body and lower bodies are just different levels of the same identity, nothing is ever handed over to someone else. Nothing is taken away. The gardener who sows and harvests plants a bit of itself, and in the best of circumstances that bit even grows back to make the full connection to this gardener. (In fact, the relationship between soul and incarnate is also explained with a gardener metaphor in the theosophical texts.)

But in the Loosh story energy gets handed on from the gardener, too, to somewhere else. In Theosophy, the causal body is not the highest level of identity possible, but the Monad. The Monad is basically a part of the Source itself, a part that chose to participate and evolve in the Universe the Source creates and witnesses. In this case a Monad chose to evolve by being a human, which is one possible choice, so it adopted a causal body. As the incarnate can grow to identify with the soul, the soul can grow to identify with the Monad, which will be the end of its evolutionary cycle. By this time it returned to Source.

This whole system makes it possible to define what spiritual growth is. Spiritual growth means agreeing to the process that is in place, evolving back to the Source by learning and growing; and willingly participating in it. This accelerates this process enormously. This is but one aspect of the relationship between soul and incarnate. It is a slightly different story from the one Monroe tells us, but in terms of the ultimate message it carries it couldn't differ more:

It's always you. Nothing is taken away. All the "Loosh" you create contributes to your own growth and well-being as a spirit.

Oliver

[Beekeeper]

I must say, the loosh idea stayed with me after reading Monroe. I like the connection you've made.

I don't take anyone's astral experiences as absolute truth. I think they're too easily shaped by personality factors. At the same time, they do present possibilities for consideration and it is interesting when sources appear to line up, presuming one hasn't already been exposed to the other.

I confess, I often tire of the speculation. I can see why people simply say it's unknowable or accept religious doctrine as truth or opt for more sinister explanations or reject the notion that there is a purpose at all when even the direct knowledge on these big questions (if you accept the possibility of such things) can apparently be distorted.

[Ouroboros]

Hey Korpo, if you haven't read My Big TOE yet, you might be interested in checking it out. It's a scientific take on very similar principles. Instead of the commonly used metaphors you see with spirituality, Campbell uses computers as the base of his metaphor.

In Campbell's model, the physical world is a virtual reality simulation used by the One Consciousness (AUM) as a system to lower it's entropy. The non-physical world is also a virtual reality, but of a different order (fewer limitations in the rule-set). The purpose of incarnating is to lower the entropy of your personal Independent Unit of Consciousness (IUOC), which in turn lowers the entropy of the Whole. Entropy is lowered by acting with caring intent (love) - in essence the same kinds of actions that generate "loosh." This loosh, or lowering of entropy, is needed for AUM to continue growing, as its options are the same as those of the IUOC's (and this is where Campbell's TOE differs from theosophy) - grow and evolve, or stagnate and devolve.

Now, I may not have a complete understanding of his theory because I haven't read the whole trilogy, but from what I've read the above is what I have gathered. Just thought there was an interesting parallel there. :)

[CFTraveler]

I just want to add to the metaphor- in Alchemy/Hermetic theory, the 'quintessence' is what you get after you do all the great works- but the nature of quintessence is that it already was there, the act of doing the works (which consists of resolving opposites)- extracts it, but it is actually the nature of everything.
I feel this is another way to describe what you're saying- that what seems separate from one point of view is actually the same from the point of view of the whole.

Good job.

[Korpo]

Hey Korpo, if you haven't read My Big TOE yet, you might be interested in checking it out. It's a scientific take on very similar principles. Instead of the commonly used metaphors you see with spirituality, Campbell uses computers as the base of his metaphor.

Oh my...


In Campbell's model, the physical world is a virtual reality simulation used by the One Consciousness (AUM) as a system to lower it's entropy. The non-physical world is also a virtual reality, but of a different order (fewer limitations in the rule-set). The purpose of incarnating is to lower the entropy of your personal Independent Unit of Consciousness (IUOC), which in turn lowers the entropy of the Whole. Entropy is lowered by acting with caring intent (love) - in essence the same kinds of actions that generate "loosh." This loosh, or lowering of entropy, is needed for AUM to continue growing, as its options are the same as those of the IUOC's (and this is where Campbell's TOE differs from theosophy) - grow and evolve, or stagnate and devolve.

This made my head hurt. Ouch! :lol: (Must have been the many acronyms... ;) )

There's usually as many different conceptual frameworks as there are kinds of people, potentially infinite. But in practical terms there are just as many frameworks as people who can explain theirs and find people who want to adopt them, which is thankfully much less.

As you observed theosophy really has no concept of devolving - you may stagnate, but you can only progress in the long run. Mind you, you can be stuck for quite a long time, but in the end in theosophy there's always the pull of the Source/Logos on the one hand, which is irresistible in the long run, and the piling up of karma, which sooner or later makes it impossible to follow dead-end paths. There's a subtle attraction in the "right" direction and there's mounting resistance in all other directions. In this model you cannot be lost forever - just seemingly forever. ;)

Oliver

[Ouroboros]

Hehehe, sorry to make your head hurt. :P That is one thing about My Big TOE, it's very acronym heavy. A sad parallel to my current career field, IT Networking. The acronym rules all...maybe that's why I find his theory so appealing, lol.

One of the things I really like about Campbell is how often he says "don't take my word for it, find out for yourself and make your own Theory of Everything." He notes that the model he has developed is just a model, and shouldn't be confused for reality, as everyone's experience of that reality will be subjective.

Out of curiosity Korpo, do you follow Theosophy, or is it just your current area of study? (I notice you have a quote from Annie Besant in your sig).

[Korpo]

Hehehe, sorry to make your head hurt. :P That is one thing about My Big TOE, it's very acronym heavy. A sad parallel to my current career field, IT Networking. The acronym rules all...maybe that's why I find his theory so appealing, lol.

I already have acronym overload in my day job... :P


Out of curiosity Korpo, do you follow Theosophy, or is it just your current area of study? (I notice you have a quote from Annie Besant in your sig).

Well, if there was a theosophic society or lodge round here, I'd consider joining. Currently I'm learning from teachings and channeled material that heavily references theosophic material as a basic framework.

Oliver

[Ouroboros]

Cool. I've done some reading of Theosophical material, nothing overly extensive, but enough to have an interest in it and keep it in consideration for an operating framework.

Keep us posted ;)

[Korpo]

Well, till now I didn't know about what "My Big TOE" was about either, so - thanks. :)

Oliver

[Circe]

I think he is trying to ineterpret the basis of chi, energy, you know, the reason we are alive. He is trying to put it into terms that the west can appreciate.

but, the problem is, there is some fool woman online using his theory to try and get people not to meditate. I found this place attempting to refute her arguements, which worked, because none of the trolls on the particular forum could refute what I did to her articles.

If you would like to check out this lunatic's rants, check it out here.... she calls herself the whistleblower on enlightenment.
http://brontebaxter.wordpress.com/blowing-the-whistle-on-enlightenment-confessions-of-a-new-age-heretic/

So, after reading that she is a propagator of his theories, I am a bit skeptic to follow them.

Though, I do accept the Michael Talbot book about Pribram and Brohm's holographic universe book.

Makes more sense.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

but, the problem is, there is some fool woman online using his theory to try and get people not to meditate. I found this place attempting to refute her arguements, which worked, because none of the trolls on the particular forum could refute what I did to her articles.

Disagreeing with someone's major premises and general philosophy is all well and good, but where does she recommend against meditation? I've read a good deal of her articles, and it seemed to me she was just anti-guru, suspicious of the concept of enlightenment and a proponent of RM's take on the loosh concept. Mantra meditation, maybe, though I'd be inclined to agree with the premise there -- know and understand where you're sending your energy and intention, and whether you actually condone what you're putting it into, rather than just repeating a phrase. I can understand how that would be problematic, as no doubt many of those mantras come with well established thoughtforms attached, or may be associated with a specific entity. At the very least, it's going to program the subconscious mind just as an affirmation would, which I'd think would make it important to have a good working knowledge of what you're putting in there.

[Korpo]

Hence why Eknath Easwaran recommends chosing your mantra yourself from a holy scripture. If you find your mantra attractive and want to learn more about it, all the better, because repeating the mantra connects you with the energy behind the lines, the energy/information that is not expressed in the words.

Oliver

[eyeoneblack]

Wow, pretty deep stuff. What a great wrap-up of 'involution' and the bit about love lowering entropy, very thought provoking.

I knew (I guess it's 'Oliver') pretty much who the possible authors of the theosophical input were, probably Bessant or Leadbeater - they worked together quite a bit, but I really don't believe they are representative of the general doctrines of theosophy. Well, certainly they are if you are in their camp. I'm not howver. The founder of the modern movement in the late 1870s, Helena Blavatsky, relegates the soul to the astral and speaks of the spirit thereafter in various terms; nous comes to mind, but whatever, it is that undifferntiated spark of the Monad returning to its origin.

This really makes little difference except that in the first model there is wiggle room for the survival of the individual, whereas in the second there is hardly any. So difficult is it for us in the West to imagine our personality not surviving that even Blavatsky argues against the presumed anihilation of the individual even in the attainment of Nirvana (becoming as a drop in the ocean). Personally, I'll drop the soul at the level of the astral as it being only the vehicle of astral embodiment of the spirit. Beyond that (mental, causal, Buddhic) anything related to 'I' will have lost any significance.

And if love lowers entropy, why was it high to begin with? One would assume that the condition before conditions must have been of very low entropy, i.e. The Limitless Light is of the lowest possible entropy. So, entropy increases over time. Why would love be concerned with lowering it again? Unless of course your purpose is to create stars and galaxies where a region of low entropy might produce a random fluctuation disturbing the smoothness of the cosmic sea and setting the stage for the organization of matter. But then love would be involutionary, not evolutionary. Now I'm lost :|

[Korpo]

Hello, eyeoneblack.


Beyond that (mental, causal, Buddhic) anything related to 'I' will have lost any significance.

You are talking of a model. Personal experience of explorers does not necessarily validate this. Models provide frameworks for experience, but where they replace experience it becomes difficult. There is no longer a real way to assert their usefulness. They just float around in mental space never being validated or invalidated.

The branch of theosophy fueled so heavily by Besant and Leadbeater is a source of information others have used to give a framework of understanding that has proved to be highly useful in making sense of my own experiences, it has expanded my understanding and has brought me in touch with more aspects of myself than I've ever hoped for. That's the true test for me, that's what helps me discern which information is useful and which is not.

As to the issue quoted above - from experience this one could be resolved - your mind of concrete thought comes from the "mental level" - that's basically the definition of it. There is most definitely an "I" there. As I write this, there is a sense of "I am writing this." There is a sense of "I am thinking my thoughts." While this is also to an extent an illusion which I know from an experience with my mind I once had, this sense of "I" is real at least on the mental level.

Meditation is part of bit by bit dispelling this illusion of "I am this, I am that." Once you have started observing your emotions, how they arise without your doing and how they vanish without you being able to hold on to them your sense of "I am my emotions" weakens. Similarly once you have observed how even your thoughts can arise and be observed without your doing you will realise that you are not your thoughts.

From a more conceptual point of view I'd say these stages transcend the more limited sense of "I" present in the lower bodies and slowly diminish this sense of separate self. But a sense of "I" is there. Identification with your physical self ("I am my body") leads to physical/etherical experiences, identification with your emotional self ("I am my feelings") leads to the astral experiences and identification with the concrete mind ("I am what I think / I think therefore I am") leads to the lower mental experiences.

Oliver

[eyeoneblack]

I want to get back to Korpo's last entry, but this has come to mind and it has to go, now.

NOT THE ENGINEER'S ENTROPY

Entropy to the engineer represents degradation and decay of a physical system which is a bad thing. However, from the perspective of the involution and evolution of Spirit, entropy represents the exhaustion of potential - a good thing.
If I, in my subjective 'existence', have an idea of three particles and I cast them down into the objective world they are free to interact with each other. Particle 'A' will bump into particle 'B' and in so doing will share information relative to mass and angular momemtum. Whereas they were identical to each other initially, they are now different from each other in some way depending on the nature of the collision. Now let's say 'B' bumps into 'C', there's another exchange of information.

Entropy maintains that the three particles will explore every possible combination of colliding with each other to the end that they are once again identical and in a state of equilibrium. And yet each particle arrived at the new-found condition by a unique combination of collisions.

This oversimplified anology is rather how I understand evolution of Spirit. Whereas God represents low entropic condition of pure potential, the prefected soul represents the the high entropic condition of the exhaustion of that potential with a history. And with a nod to Korpo, perhaps it is just that unique combination of collisions, that history, that is the 'I' of the evolved mental and causal self.

[eyeoneblack]

I'm sorry Oliver for getting so far off topic. You were discussing Monroe's Loosh and the possibility that we Earthlings might merely be a colony of some super-race farmed for our ability to produce a commodity called Loosh (or unselfish love). If I remember correctly I was inspired by the Loosh story when I read it, of course Monroe was the one to introduce me to all this fantastic stuff and I was a quick convert and book-thumping disciple of ROBERT MONROE. I bet many of us have a similar story.

But I have hung in the smoke house (cured) many years since then :P, not that I am any less enthusiastic, but I have lost practically any sense of sentimentality and by golly, if any Beings are farming our poor people for the production of Loosh? well, let them make their own dam Loosh. It's the hardest thing we do down here and we need every bit of it. :evil:

But seriously, Loosh is not a commodity. Loosh belongs to a dimension where if it is one place, it is every place. It's always right at hand no matter where you are on the planet or in the universe. It is a signal that permeates all space, not that it wouldn't hurt to make it stronger, make it louder.

[Korpo]

Now I think you lost your original train of thought. ;)

I really don't take the Loosh story literally at all. I think it got garbled by Monroe's developing inner senses, and tried to find out what the symbolism is actually pointing to.

I think Monroe just received a download that told him that in our Earth Learning System we pass on refined qualities of our learning to higher aspects of our self. Similarly Monroe could not identify his particular INSPEC friend as a future variation of himself, either.

I don't believe in the Loosh farm at all. :)

Oliver

[eyeoneblack]

I don't believe in the Loosh farm at all. :)
Oliver

Didn't reckon ya' did. :lol:

I understood you, too, were reframing your thoughts from an earlier time - like me. Afterall, we needn't fix Monroe, no excuses are necessary and even if you find a forward thinking rationale, it's just good work. Personally, I never thought to BELIEVE a word Monroe wrote, I only marvel at the journey that gave him the story. Writers on astral projection and such should stay away from depositions on the meaning of life. Their talent does not equal nor even compare to true mystics.

I'll probably regret that :? .

[Korpo]

That would be a misrepresentation of Monroe as well. He made definite progress. He became much deeper than that. Surely the Monroe of "Ultimate Journey" is a far different person.

Oliver

[eyeoneblack]

That would be a misrepresentation of Monroe as well. He made definite progress. He became much deeper than that. Surely the Monroe of "Ultimate Journey" is a far different person.

Oliver
So see? I need to get up to speed. It's been too long since I've read the gurus latest thoughts and experiences; they have surely evolved. Give me a few days and I'll see.

Most respectflly,

Eye

[Tiny]

Now I see where you're coming from, Korpo.


Loosh however is a reality that anyone can see by simple observation of Earth nature.

One may just look how this reality, the physical World is constructed. One species is constructed and genetically designed to prey upon another, so there is mutual exploitation, more exploitation and even more exploitation - a food chain, so every species is naturally, in continual conflict with another. This causes in animals, plants and humans incredible pain, suffering and various forms of fear.
A few examples: The storm arrives the wind blows harder and harder and the trees fear it may blow them over. Hundreds of thousands of trees fear they are about to get killed! Massive amounts of loosh are released into the air. The antilope is faced with the tiger. The tiger fears if it doesn't kill the antilope it'll have to die a slow horrible death of starvation. The antilope fears it will brutally be ripped appart by the tiger if it doesn't run like hell now. Both are releasing loosh now. And we all know how it feels like when humans are in conflict with one another.
Guess how plants or animals feel when they are about to be harvested/slaughtered by humans.
In summary - Earth nature is a very brutal reality where suffering is the norm AND upon close inspection consequently the suffering causes a leak in a beings' spiritual bodies that releases enormous amounts of energy that is then collected by "someone".
This is exactly what the Loosh story is about.
This is a simple observation ANYONE can make and that I have made reference to in my thread http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19978.

Is it really spiritual growth to ignore that?

I think we should dispell wishful thinking and grow by observation and see things as they really are.



kind regards,

Paul

[Palehorse Redivivus]

Minor peeve -- the Loosh thing didn't actually start with Monroe; its been around in various forms in various Shamanic paradigms, and was then recognized by the Gnostics. I actually find Monroe's story more compelling for the fact that he had been an atheist at the time he started having experiences, likely hadn't read much Shamanic or Gnostic material (the latter of which is notoriously inaccessible, especially in the 50s-60s when most of it hadn't been published yet), and then basically said the same thing they've been saying for centuries. Then you've got the Matrix and other popular movies, which to me seems to indicate this theme has been in our collective consciousness in a powerful way, for a long time. There's probably a reason for that; there usually is.

I can say from personal experience that there definitely is a solid real-life basis for the "loosh farm" theme, though I would frame it a bit differently than most sources I've seen. Basically, there is what Jung would call a massive autonomous complex loose in the collective consciousness and various planes which self-assembles into systems, in a robotic fashion for the harvesting of resources, without regard for anything but. Said resource is not limited to what Monroe called "loosh"; it could be emotional energy, but also money, power, and anything else one might consider a resource. I don't believe there is any single centralized "farm," but as the programming is set for maximum efficiency and effectiveness, it tends to self-refine into more centralized systems over time.

We can see this in nature as Tiny pointed out. It can also be readily seen all across society, the workforce where people put in most of their time and effort for comparatively little reward, the "slot machine programming" I pointed out in another thread which is designed to capitalize on our psychology and can be found in many areas other than literal slot machines, the way corporations tend to get increasingly centralized and merged and have very little regard for the human toll, factory farming that is solely concerned with efficiency and profit but is also very brutal, and finally, the way a lot of negative interference operates at the individual level. Eventually the trend is toward all these different "farms" merging into one system, since for instance it screws with our emotions to have our money harvested and constantly be worrying about debt and security, which benefits both the corporations and the nonphysical beings who feed on emotional output.

[eyeoneblack]

Basically, there is what Jung would call a massive autonomous complex loose in the collective consciousness and various planes which self-assembles into systems, in a robotic fashion for the harvesting of resources, without regard for anything but. Said resource is not limited to what Monroe called "loosh"; it could be emotional energy, but also money, power, and anything else one might consider a resource. I don't believe there is any single centralized "farm," but as the programming is set for maximum efficiency and effectiveness, it tends to self-refine into more centralized systems over time.

We can see this in nature as Tiny pointed out. It can also be readily seen all across society, the workforce where people put in most of their time and effort for comparatively little reward, the "slot machine programming" I pointed out in another thread which is designed to capitalize on our psychology and can be found in many areas other than literal slot machines, the way corporations tend to get increasingly centralized and merged and have very little regard for the human toll, factory farming that is solely concerned with efficiency and profit but is also very brutal, and finally, the way a lot of negative interference operates at the individual level. Eventually the trend is toward all these different "farms" merging into one system, since for instance it screws with our emotions to have our money harvested and constantly be worrying about debt and security, which benefits both the corporations and the nonphysical beings who feed on emotional output.

Thanks for that focus and insight - very ahead of the curve. "the way corporations tend to get increasingly centralized and merged and have very little regard for the human toll, factory farming that is solely concerned with efficiency and profit but is also very brutal". Listen, I work at WalMart and I see it, real time, by its largest champion. Your words will be quoted, if you don't mind.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

Go for it. :)

[pondini]

i wasn't half-way through korpo's thread-starting post when i thought of 'My Big T.O.E.' and Bernard Haisch's The GOD Theory. (http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/haisch.html)

at times, my memory pretty much sucks -which is why many times my posts contain the disclaimer 'if i remember correctly'. so with that in mind, it seems like the loosh story was included in a brief historical pamphlet (rote) of earth, that was provided by the 'travel agency' that brought RM to earth in the first place -or at least an aspect of him. in the book, the tale was presented just as if he were reading it from the pamphlet, and i don't recall him pushing the theory as fact. i remember feeling a bit miffed about the possibility of being used as a loosh farmer, as well, and i felt resentment over it until the bigger picture of RM's 'Ultimate' (this was in his 3rd book, yes?) theory emerged towards the end of the book. i remember feeling as if his ultimate conclusion contradicted the credibility of earth beginning as a loosh farm, but it's possible that that conclusion was rooted in wishful thinking.

[Sinera]

The process of incarnation works like this – the causal body extends part of itself into the lower planes and a mental body is formed around that, then an astral body, finally an etheric body, which then becomes a blueprint for our growing physical body. This process is called “involution,” whereas spirit comes into matter. Each lifetime brings new lower bodies, and each lifetime is a new mix of energies.

The purpose of all this is to learn and grow as a human, to experience certain lessons. The lower bodies are temporary vehicles for this purpose while the causal body is the permanent storehouse for the wisdom gained from each lifetime. Almost every lifetime contributes something to the growth of this soul or causal body.

Now, here's the thing. The causal body is only affected by the higher energies, for lack of a better word. Unselfish love, for example. Whenever a human serves the greater good, or commits an unselfish act, and so on, it's causal body stores that and it is positive growth from that particular lifetime. The causal body is not affected the other way round by negative emotions, so, even if many incarnations experience very little of these unselfish moments, the soul will grow.


Korpo, I really like this interpretation, makes sense and relieves one of the disquieting nature of the original (but obviously unclear and distorted) loosh story. I was also shocked a bit by this, but just viewing it as the incarnation creating and working on karma / loosh and so servicing one's own "soul" is really a good analogy.

By accident, I recently stumbled upon this interesting website by L. Bladon (esotericscience), and there are some articles and diagrams of which I felt immediately reminded when I read your description of the theosophical teachings, especially the causal body as the starting point of the incarnation. I think it is pretty cool and I'd share it here for whoever is interested. Of course, I cannot really judge how much "sense" it all makes. However, this can be said of many teachings. And it's interesting anyway.

http://www.esotericscience.org/articles.htm

Here are some of the nice diagrams:

http://www.esotericscience.org/diagrams/Human%20subtle%20bodies.jpg
http://www.esotericscience.org/diagrams/Cosmology.jpg
http://www.esotericscience.org/diagrams/Reincarnation.jpg
http://www.esotericscience.org/diagrams/Human%20being.jpg
http://www.esotericscience.org/diagrams/mind%20body%20spirit.jpg

[eyeoneblack]

This is great, thank you Volgerie :D

Maybe I can use this to translate next time I chat with Korpo :P

[Korpo]

Good grief! :shock:

I've tried to make sense of it, but I already think I've spotted some mismatches with the model I've been exposed to...

To say the least I have my doubts. I already take all the theosophic information with a grain of salt, especially where it tries to sound like science... I'm really no fan of "big models" (I used to be for sure), as they limit the mind with concepts, but I know the mind needs some structure to order the information it gets. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Wherever there are concepts, there is misunderstanding.

Charles told me this in the third session:

The mental body has ideas about the truth. The causal body has a felt sense of the truth.

My take on it:

Therefore the mental body can get stuck in obsessing with certain ideas about the truth. Especially if they sound convincing or if they are well-formulated. It's the beauty of how the idea is laid out. Logic can only prove consistency. But that's what the mental body knows and does. Logic, reasoning, comparing.

What I increasingly do for myself is to take every piece of information and try to get a feel for it. I did not choose the theosophical system for its formal appeal, anyway, but because it proved to be helpful in my development, because the information given to me in this context by Kurt was helpful and aiding my growth in manifold ways. I got connected into this system by placing my experiences into various categories and ideas within the framework and starting to realise a bigger picture for my own life.

The model helps me talk about this. But whenever it comes to the point where I would say "Ah, this happened, now that must happen" (because of the model) that builds expectations and creates problems. The model is helpful for interpreting what happened. It can help decode and translate what was experienced. It is not really helpful for getting any idea about what goes beyond experience, instead it limits and shuts down. Nothing can block perception of what is going on better than a belief of what should be going on.

In this sense, my life and experience are best when I live a life of surprises. Every experience I had and made while not expecting it was deep and significant, and may have taken quite some time to decode, understand and may still keep giving me new insights. I use the model to process what happened where it makes sense. But how it unfolds is very individual and beyond any model.

Cheers,
Oliver