castaneda - second attention

[Epoche]

I would like to know> what do you imagine when somebody tells you/or when somebody explicitly claims/ that he/she writes stories that should activate second attention, a term used by c. castaneda? Do you think that any paranormal powers are used/abused by writer in order to produce such a story?

[CFTraveler]

Not necessarily- all writers write stories to elicit some sort of response in the readers, whether this result is self-awareness, consciousness shift, or simple basic animal emotion. So I don't see why the motivation of an author striving to create a consciousness shift is any different.
My problem is that many authors that espouse some sort of spiritual agenda are better at elucidating their point than telling an interesting story.
.02.

[wstein]

Second attention is from the Toltec tradition which is described in the writings of Castaneda among others.

What makes you jump to abuse from such a claim?

I claim that I can put you in an altered state. First the claim may be true or false. As you don't know me or my reputation, you don't know if it's true. Secondly, you don't know what that really means. It could mean that I am going to hypnotize you and make you perform like a dog in a circus. Or is could mean that I am going to teach you meditation. It could mean that I am going to cast a spell on you. It could mean that I am going to feed you hallucinogenic herbs. As you can see, it may be to your benefit or it may not be. It may include use of paranormal powers, it may not.

Still, this sheds no light on abuse. Abuse is when one takes advantage or harms another. Simply shifting your state (attention) does not indicate if you or they are being abused in any way. It also does not indicate that you are not being abused.

Likely, you do not know at all the implications of being in the second attention. It's clear that it took Castaneda many years to understand any of it, and in my opinion, he never fully got it. Disclosure, This is my opinion based on his books and having met him only once. Reading about the Second Attention may clarify for you if it's something you might want to experience. It might give you some sense if the claims might be true or not.
General description here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagualism_(Carlos_Castaneda)

It would seem that there is something in the claim that makes you cautious. This is probably a good thing, listen to it. Like all claims, you have to decide if it's a good risk for you.

Questions welcome.

[Tutor]

question...

need anyone 'get it', as it is, that it gets anyone?

maybe what seems as 'second' is first, and what seems first is second or even third. we here tend to overembellish our relatively insignificant placement in it, even as it is us, et all.

i have tasted it and it is as if something i kinda remembered, sort of pleasantly familiar, yet i couldnt 'quite put a finger on it. and i've tasted this here from it, and this tastes like black carbon charcoal. i say that, yet i dont quite 'get it', but i know that it gets me.

i imagine that when it came time to go that carlos was more than ready to remember the familiar taste, seeing that he needed no finger whatsoever to put on it.

yet, it seems to me as quite sad to have to go from here. i doubt any of us can quite put a finger on why we don't want to go from here, so much so that when we are gone from here to familar taste, we'd taste such a foul tasting substance to 'get it' back.

i am not sure that makes sense. but, it doesn't have to make sense to be-gotten.

T

[Epoche]

"What makes you jump to abuse from such a claim?"

Well the fact that a complete stranger, a psychic, knows probably more about me thanks his abilities. When I bumped into such stories for the first time /on the internet/ I was scared that somebody possesses such powers. I think that such stories can be used to manipulate the /concrete/ reader. And Im still talking about publishing on internet as anonymous /blogs, message boards/.

From my point of view second attention is something like Alice in wonderland, life is but a dream, neverending LSD trip. It looks like I have created an alternative persona for my internet LSD trips when reading stories / being in touch with people dealing with esotericism.

[CFTraveler]

Yet I would postulate that everyone has the same potential- that the idea of the second attention, the 'unreal reality' is part of everyone's reality, even if not conscious- so I don't see any issue of power. If you feel vulnerable, all you have to do is look at your own unconscious processes, and make them conscious. Or am I missing something? Is something else bothering you?

[wstein]

Well the fact that a complete stranger, a psychic, knows probably more about me thanks his abilities. When I bumped into such stories for the first time /on the internet/ I was scared that somebody possesses such powers. I think that such stories can be used to manipulate the /concrete/ reader. And I'm still talking about publishing on internet as anonymous /blogs, message boards/.

From my point of view second attention is something like Alice in wonderland, life is but a dream, never ending LSD trip. It looks like I have created an alternative persona for my internet LSD trips when reading stories / being in touch with people dealing with esotericism. I hope I don't make the problem worse by responding. I am a complete stranger after all. I'll try to be direct without alarming you too much.

These like all powers and capabilities can be put to many uses. Some are to your benefit, some to your detriment, but most neutral to you. Many kinds of powers can be used to manipulate people. Toltec 'powers' are included here. It also includes ordinary powers like political power. It may come as a complete shock to you but there are many powers that you do not know about. There are many that I do not know either.

As to your fears specifically about the Second Attention: It may interest you to know that Carlos (and the other sorcerers of his group) all started by taking hallucinogens. Even they don't recommend them as they cause long term damage (as you suggest). I certainly won't tell you that one's first 'trips' beyond the 'normal' world, no matter what the cause, aren't bizarre and often scary. If you choose to have one of these experiences, seeking a safe place and a safe way to do so is highly recommended. This means in a way that you can make stop at any time if it gets to be too much. Like most trips, ventures into the Second Attention end after a short-ish time. In fact those who embrace them, find them ending way too quickly. There are not usually lingering side effects like those caused by drug use or involving entities.

Perhaps I would recommend a more measured venture into these kinds of things rather than just letting someone take you for a ride. Venturing somewhere you are not ready, no matter how expertly done, is just going to scare you.

Robert's books on NEW are a safe and simple way to begin. If that's not your liking, you might try meditation, energy healing, tarot, or self hypnosis. All of these you can ease into and are very safe place to begin. Unless you live in a very isolated place, you should be able to find classes taught by competent instructors. That way you can get a taste before deciding to completely shift your awareness.