Astral Projection vs. Religion?

[Samuel431]

HI

I know this is probably a no-go topic but would really like to know the opinions of the readers of the forum...

This topic is regarding Astral Projection vs. Religion

I know for instance that Christian beliefs strictly prohibid any such forms of practice.
I'm assuming a lot of the readers and AP's do it for religious purposes aswell as other points of interest???Maybe you want to know what life after death is. Or maybe you want to reconnect with someone you've lost, or maybe you just want to explore your options or even just to fool around or whatever. And I'm also assuming a lot of readers are Christian(Going on the fact that it is the worlds most dominate religion, not trying to offend anyone).

Also I think AP would probably fall under magic if it was to be placed in a category, you know in religious beliefs. You make use of energy which is a strict no-no in christian belief and in most other religions aswell...I think(again, not trying to offend anyone)

Personally I like to have a delicate balance of logic vs. faith. Everything can be explained, we just aren't at the point where we can. There are a lot of reasons why I would suggest that AP would both be considered good and bad.

So, what do YOU think?

[CFTraveler]

I know for instance that Christian beliefs strictly prohibid any such forms of practice. Not so fast. Certain sects of christianity do so; the more fundamentalist/evangelical do, but this is not true of all forms of christianity.
I, for example, am studying to be a minister some day, and practice AP. I know another minister (this one Baptist) who also practices AP.
I consider it a gift of the spirit, and not 'prohibitable by man'.
To be more exact:
"1 Cor
2:15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man. 2:16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
3:16Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? "

So no, I don't accept the premise right from the start.

[Serpentarius]

As a non Christian I have no trouble with AP. :)
I personally don't give AP any religious significance, but since I have no religion it's understandable. ;)
On the side note, Christianity is not as dominant as you might think. More than 2/3 of the world's population is not Christian. :)


Four largest religions__________Adherents _________________% of World Population
World Population_____________6.671 billion
Christianity_____________1.637 billion - 1.923 billion__________24.54% - 28.82%
Islam__________________1.525 billion - 1.8 billion____________22.752% - 23.312%
Buddhism_______________489 million - 1.512 billion___________7.33% - 22.67%
Hinduism_______________965 million - 971 million____________14.47% - 14.55%
Total__________________4.541 billion - 5.920 billion___________68.08% - 88.74%

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

[Samuel431]

@CF


I consider it a gift of the spirit, and not 'prohibitable by man'.

See that's what I said...but, most people would tell you that it's not prohibited by man but by "God"{In quotation marks because i'm reffering to the genaral idea of a God and not religion specific}(and they would probably quote a passage from -their- bible).

Something I've picked up on in religion is that it's not so much about good vs. evil then it is about who you worship. Almost every religion states that, that is the real truth and that if you don't believe solely in that religion you will go to a place of eternal suffering. Off point but, thought I should include it...

I'm going on conversations and personal experiences with other people from differant religions and not on facts, so if any of my statement are less then true please point them out.

Most people I've talked to(the majority of them being aged(not senior but, still with "life experience") stood firmly that any such practices are "in fact" a sin or as another guy said... "playing with a blow torch". I would like to be part of a religion where everything is fair and emphasis is not so much put on who you worship but more of Good vs Evil. For instance: Lets say a small boy in a 3rd world country's parents are of one religion(doesn't matter which one) and lets say that it's the wrong religion. If that boy was to die at a young age where he would have been unable to make his own choice of religion he would go to "the place of eternal suffering". Most people I've talked to quoted the bible where it says that "the sins of the father are passed on to his children" (sorry if that quote is less then accurate). For me the simple fact is how can you be punished for something you had absolutely no control over...See my point, unfair. (Again, not trying to offend anyone or pick a fight, i'm just curious to know what you think)

Personally I think that if AP is a natural ability and uses energy it would be seen as any other talent or natural ability. Seeing as how we use energy every day to survive, the way I see it we (AP'ers) are simply controlling the flow of energy.

On a side note: I read in the book of Enoch that in early times the three most guarded secrets of heaven (Astrology, Herbology and Magic) was leaked and eventually lead to the destruction of Earth in Noah's time.Which is probably where the witch hunts stemmed from(this is my own opinion!) because the book of Enoch was found around the same time(by a free mason no less). Opinions???

[daveyboy63]

Check my similiar topic:
"Is the practice of Astral Projection against Christianity?"
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15391 (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15391)

As CFTraveller said, it's prohibid in only certain sects of Christianity. In my personal opinion, if you don't use it for evil and don't let it rule your life/have any more significance than God/Jesus, then there's no problem. Some Christians are pro astral projection and back up this belief through Bible quotes (seen in above topic). However, remember that certain sects of Christianity will follow the Bible's complete word as they believe it is the Word of God, therefore practicing Astral Projection would be prohibid as it would fall under the category of Witchcraft or Black Arts. Sorry for being too lazy to find passage.

[ButterflyWoman]

I'll repeat some of my posts from that other thread, for ease of reading:

Paul very clearly reference OOBE here:


I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.
2 Corinthians 12:2

He goes on, in that passage, to talk about the things he saw/experienced.

I also found another reference to OOBE in direct Christian experience. This time it was St Catherine of Siena. She was very much a mystic from the word go, and had all kinds of interesting visions and ecstatic experiences, but on one particular occasion she fell into a kind of trance for three days. Some people observing thought she might be dead, so I assume it was a coma or something similar. Some other observers who knew her and knew about her mystical experiences wondered if her soul had actually been removed from her body and she taken to "the third heaven" (not sure what that is, but it crops up from time to time in Christian mystical literature). After three days and nights, she did "return" but apparently she was quite disoriented and maintained that she had, indeed, left her body. She said she could never describe the things she saw and experienced because there were no words to do so.

Now, you really have to take stories of the lives of saints with a grain of salt, but the point is that this is a recognised Christian saint, and she is widely reported to have experienced OOBE. (As an interesting sidenote, Catherine of Siena was also said to occasionally levitate when she was in a prayer trance, and occasionally witnesses would see things around her like a visible aura of light. I don't know what to make of that, but it's interesting.)

There are probably other Christian saints and mystics who have similar OOB experiences, as well. I've only read about the lives of a handful of them, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to find more references.

So the notion that Christianity is against OOBE is a gross misunderstanding of Christian spirituality and mystical experience. Certainly there are some sects of Christianity (it's a very, VERY large area, with a multitude of different denominations, sects, traditions, etc.) which would take a dim view of OBE, but given that St Paul, St Catherine of Siena, and almost certainly other saints experienced it, it would have to a fairly ignorant or very narrow-thinking sect, or it would have to be ignorant and narrow-thinking people.

[CFTraveler]

Hi Samuel.

Most people I've talked to(the majority of them being aged(not senior but, still with "life experience") stood firmly that any such practices are "in fact" a sin or as another guy said... "playing with a blow torch". I would like to be part of a religion where everything is fair and emphasis is not so much put on who you worship but more of Good vs Evil. For instance: Lets say a small boy in a 3rd world country's parents are of one religion(doesn't matter which one) and lets say that it's the wrong religion. If that boy was to die at a young age where he would have been unable to make his own choice of religion he would go to "the place of eternal suffering". Most people I've talked to quoted the bible where it says that "the sins of the father are passed on to his children" (sorry if that quote is less then accurate). For me the simple fact is how can you be punished for something you had absolutely no control over...See my point, unfair. (Again, not trying to offend anyone or pick a fight, i'm just curious to know what you think) Well, I think we established that most religions (not just the abrahamic ones, mind you) as they are practiced, are full of unfairness, because religion is usually about control, or social control, if you will, and not 'knowledge of God' which is how they all start, as mystical movements.
So there's no point in going on about details in where this religion or that religion prohibit this or that thing specifically, because they all have their core assumptions about reality, and all have different sects that believe this or that about specific things.
My point is that because a vocal group prohibits AP or magic, doesn't mean that "christianity" as a group is against it. Like OW pointed out, most catholic mystics (and catholicism is the original christianity) practiced AP, and other mystical arts. Whether they were burnt or executed as witches depended on the time. There were times of tolerance, (like the Renaissance) and there were times like the burning of the witches in Salem, which was at a time where everything was considered of the Devil- read for example the Malleus Maleficarus. It very plainly states that all women are essentially evil (or weak against satan) and therefore everything that can possibly happen is their fault, therefore it's 'compassionate' to kill them.-etc.


Personally I think that if AP is a natural ability and uses energy it would be seen as any other talent or natural ability. Seeing as how we use energy every day to survive, the way I see it we (AP'ers) are simply controlling the flow of energy. And some religions understand this.


On a side note: I read in the book of Enoch that in early times the three most guarded secrets of heaven (Astrology, Herbology and Magic) was leaked and eventually lead to the destruction of Earth in Noah's time.Which is probably where the witch hunts stemmed from(this is my own opinion!) because the book of Enoch was found around the same time(by a free mason no less). Opinions???The book of Enoch has had two incarnations, and are different books written in different eras. The apocryphal book of Enoch was supposed to have been written at the same time as Exodus, which was written before Genesis, if I remember correctly.
I don't know if a mason found 'it' (which one?), but it wouldn't surprise me, they were the ones who built most of Europe and America (the buildings, that is) and founded our nation (the US). Obviously had the money, and whoever has the money and power has the books to learn stuff. :wink:

[CFTraveler]

Check my similiar topic:
"Is the practice of Astral Projection against Christianity?"
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15391 (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15391)

As CFTraveller said, it's prohibid in only certain sects of Christianity. In my personal opinion, if you don't use it for evil and don't let it rule your life/have any more significance than God/Jesus, then there's no problem. Some Christians are pro astral projection and back up this belief through Bible quotes (seen in above topic). However, remember that certain sects of Christianity will follow the Bible's complete word as they believe it is the Word of God, therefore practicing Astral Projection would be prohibid as it would fall under the category of Witchcraft or Black Arts. Sorry for being too lazy to find passage.
The problem in following the Bible literally, is that it follow some people's translation of the Bible, and some are different than others. as any catholic who takes a look at the King James' version will soon realize-and in the Bible, there are many specific prohibitions towards certain things (such as divination, interpretation, casting of lots, human sacrifice, etc.) while in other parts they are reversed (astrology is allowed in some parts, casting of lots is exempt from prohibition, and other previously prohibited things are allowed as 'gifts of the Spirit'- so from a biblical point of view, which one are you going to believe?
I'd then go here, to a more general (and later) consensus, at least to christians:
""Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. … Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" (Matthew 7:20-23)." In other words, what is in your heart, the intention (to help? to harm?)-your motivation is what matters.
Like everything else in life, IMO.

[Samuel431]

@OW

For information sakes the third heaven is explained in details in the book of Enoch(don't know if its the same heavens?). Basically it says that there are 7 heavens and 7 Earths(some ppl interpret it as "hells"). It explains every one of those in detail...If you want I can e-mail it to you or something...


So the notion that Christianity is against OOBE is a gross misunderstanding of Christian spirituality and mystical experience. Certainly there are some sects of Christianity (it's a very, VERY large area, with a multitude of different denominations, sects, traditions, etc.) which would take a dim view of OBE, but given that St Paul, St Catherine of Siena, and almost certainly other saints experienced it, it would have to a fairly ignorant or very narrow-thinking sect, or it would have to be ignorant and narrow-thinking people.

Another interesting example is Enoch. The whole book is about how he travels through these heavens and hells and is accompanied by various other Angels including the arch angels ect. Accourding to the book of Enoch there are orders to Angels and their duties, Enoch was of the lowest class and had a physical body which made AP relevant.

To add to this I think it might have been humanity that started that point of thinking. If one was to look through history one would see that the leaders of the world usually started something to gain power and later banned it because everyone could do it and that leader would lose his power over the people...IMO.

@CF


Whether they were burnt or executed as witches depended on the time. There were times of tolerance, (like the Renaissance) and there were times like the burning of the witches in Salem, which was at a time where everything was considered of the Devil- read for example the Malleus Maleficarus. It very plainly states that all women are essentially evil (or weak against satan) and therefore everything that can possibly happen is their fault, therefore it's 'compassionate' to kill them.-etc.

It's amazing how cruel and stupid our race can be...I read somewhere what the number of people executed at the stakes in the witch hunt era was and can't recall the specific number but, can remember that it was a ridicioulas number. "It's on the pressibus that we change"...


The book of Enoch has had two incarnations, and are different books written in different eras. The apocryphal book of Enoch was supposed to have been written at the same time as Exodus, which was written before Genesis, if I remember correctly.
I don't know if a mason found 'it' (which one?), but it wouldn't surprise me, they were the ones who built most of Europe and America (the buildings, that is) and founded our nation (the US). Obviously had the money, and whoever has the money and power has the books to learn stuff.

I'm not sure if I'm familiar with both. I know that the one I'm talking about was lost for over 2000 years. In 1773 James Bruce brought it back from a expedition in Ethiopia. Interesting fact that a lot of religions put much emphisis on blood lines and keeping them pure, if you were to have intercourse with a demon you would be lost for eternity(or so most religions argues) and the same goes for Angels. As I said before Enoch was of the lowest Watchers(Angel) order...

The two main reasons for writing the book was 1. Because the higher orders of Watchers ordered him to and 2. To save his family. Let me just add that before Noah's Ark, accourding to this book, co-watchers of Enoch disregarded Gods rule not to interfere with humans. They had intercourse with them and started a hybrid race of their own. FYI: those watchers are said to have been locked away in earthly prisons(as in on Earth) awaiting judgement on the big day.
And to purify the Earth of hybrid demon babies aswell as the three secrets God destroyed everything except for Noah, his wife, their son and his girlfriend(and obviously Enoch and his family survived).

So here is food for thought...If God destroyed the Earth for those two reasons then why was Enoch allowed to have a family when he was himself a watcher and why do we still have the three "secrets" of heaven? Who passed that knowledge along?

[CFTraveler]

I own the Apocryphal book of Enoch, and my former minister had the Ethiopian book of Enoch. A long time ago, before I had one of those readers, someone gave me a link to the ethiopian version and I lost it. *wink wink, nod nod*
I have a reader now, so I can snuggle by the fire and read it. *hint hint* :wink:

[Samuel431]

Here's two Translations...I have five but, the other three couldn't fit because of size. Very interesting and addictive in my opinion but, then again I might be the only one...I am a mystic at heart.

[CFTraveler]

Thanks, Samuel.

[daveyboy63]

I was watching a movie, and this quote made me think:

"All religion is flawed because man is flawed. Even this one." - Catholic Priest

Does this mean religion is at the very least, partially man-made because man can't interpret the absolute truth in it's purest form if it were presented to him?

[Samuel431]

Does this mean religion is at the very least, partially man-made because man can't interpret the absolute truth in it's purest form if it were presented to him?

I don't know...I think you might be underestimating the human race. I think if we were presented the absolute truth we would be able to comprehend it at least partially. And even if we wouldn't be able to, I would still like to uncover it. Plus-- If religion wasn't extremely complex and challenging it wouldn't be interesting, IMO.

Which reminds me...@CF

How good are you at accessing the Akashic Records? And what are your techniques?

[CFTraveler]

I was watching a movie, and this quote made me think:

"All religion is flawed because man is flawed. Even this one." - Catholic Priest
Does this mean religion is at the very least, partially man-made because man can't interpret the absolute truth in it's purest form if it were presented to him? Yes, but not because of that- religion is the institutionalization of what starts out as direct revelation- and the institutionalization and dogmatization is man made. And if the religion gets old enough, the original revelation gets pushed aside, and the control structure is what remains. The original prophet's direct revelation is understandable by him (or her), but it doesn't mean that the subsequent worshippers are equipped to "get it".


...Which reminds me...@CF

How good are you at accessing the Akashic Records? And what are your techniques? I've done it time and again, and with some validations- but I wouldn't say I'm 'good' at it, as I've not gone there 'on conscious purpose'. It's been more like 'when I needed it'.
My technique is simple, just go into meditation and pay attention.

[daveyboy63]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but it would be interesting to hear people's opinions on this concept:

Let's assume that there is no such thing as God, Jesus, Heaven, etc. Now think about the saying, "Your thoughts create your reality," and then maybe think about something similiar to the Law of Attraction. If our assumption is true... is heaven, God, and 'all the above' created by widespread solid belief in such things? (Such as the Christian community)

Let me know what you think.

[CFTraveler]

God is a title, which can be understood in many ways.

Some think of God as an entity in itself, set apart in space and time. Or to some, from space and time.
Some people think of God as an energy, the energy that makes things happen.
Some people think of God as the sum total of all that is, (or the universe/multiverse) and others think God is that, and also the potentiality of all that can be.
If the Law of Attraction is true (that is, you create what you think about in one form of another) this means that we are part of the creative force of the universe; i.e. 'agents of God', or 'God in expression'. So it depends on what your opinion of what God is.

So, when you say "if God doesn't exist", you are also saying "The Law of Attraction doesn't exist" either.
At least in my understanding.

Which is why the question is so prickly; it makes so many presuppositions right from the start.

[CFTraveler]

ps.
Friendly admin warning:
If this post is intended to have a philosophical discussion on the nature of God, religion, metaphysical laws, it's allowed within the bounds of this forum. However, if it deteriorates into an insult to religion, an attack on religion, proselytizing of one form or another, (my religion is better than yours) or (all of you are idiots for believing a, b, or c) then the thread will be locked.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

Let's assume that there is no such thing as God, Jesus, Heaven, etc. Now think about the saying, "Your thoughts create your reality," and then maybe think about something similiar to the Law of Attraction. If our assumption is true... is heaven, God, and 'all the above' created by widespread solid belief in such things? (Such as the Christian community)

What I think is a mix of possibilities. If you take Jesus for instance (and don't dispute that the man existed as some do), then the being that the man was part of, still exists, and has always been independent of anyone's beliefs about himself. Then you have "thoughtform Jesus(es)" which also exist... and probably have a lot more influence in the functioning of the Christian religion than the actual "original" Jesus. Whether the original guy chooses to have any dealings at all with religion, followers, etc. etc. is solely up to him, as a sovereign being. Whereas, the thoughtforms are actually the ones that "perform" as expected, because they're basically software programs that can't do much else. A software program with a sense of self preservation is in direct conflict with the concept of sovereignty though, and that's where we get various systems of control, whether it's the thoughtforms in command of the people, rather than the people learning how to be masters of themselves. Ironically this means that "following Jesus" and following the Christian religion may well be mutually exclusive.

Same goes for most religious figures IMO -- there is whatever being originally went by the name, and then there are various images of said being that take on a life of their own. There are probably also some of the "big names" who originated as thoughtforms as you describe, and I personally think they can become sovereign and free themselves from the need to self-perpetuate via controlling others, though I don't have much solid idea of how that comes about.