How much choice is involved in the process of reincarnation? [Archive]

Wallbridge

9th October 2009, 01:47 PM

Thank you both for your responses. Thinking it over today, I found that I don't really mind what circumstances I'm born into (though, as I said, I have preferences). In actuality, I want to be born into similar circumstances my next life so I can continue the things I'm not able to in this one. That is to say, I want to come back as a similar person, but with different options and a different life path. So I guess my two new questions I would like everyone's opinions on are:

1. Is Earth a popular enough place for training souls to develop that I might not be able to come back, or at least not be able to come back for a long time? I want to return as soon as possible after I die so I can continue, basically, My Life Part 2... just as a new guy.
2. Can a situation arise where even after I come back, I will completely lose who I am today and become something utterly different? For example, I want to travel and help others, but could I come back as an office worker with no desire to see the world? Could I lose the wanderlust and desire to be charitable that I wish to act upon, simply because I am a new person? How much of the soul/ego of the person I am now can survive, or be lost, in the transistion?

Thank you again for any and all insights!

Serpentarius

9th October 2009, 04:13 PM

Timotheus

9th October 2009, 05:17 PM

RyanParis

10th October 2009, 12:14 AM

When I was a little kid, starting out in kindergarten, I kinda sorta had a feeling in the back of my mind that we are here on earth to learn. It was just something I knew in a sense, without thinking about it. I guess it could've been from my subconscious or soul.

Here's a real story: before I was born, my family had a cat that jumped on top a telephone pole across the street from their house. I remember this happening, although my parents insist I wasn't born than and it only happened once. I remember how their front door was kinda messed up by the opening handle, and how my mom brought out food to get the cat down. I remember this happening, though they say I wasn't born than and have never been in the house.

To this day I'm not sure what to make of that. But if my soul was actually lingering around their house, there would be a very good chance I choose to reincarnate on my own.

ymunio

10th October 2009, 02:29 AM

In response to Wallbridge... the desire you have now to be born into that future life will factor in to your final decision. BUT before that happens, you will rejoin the other parts of yourself, and remember the understanding of who you are, where you've been already, and all the choices available to you in the future... so very likely you (as a totality of who you are as a soul) will have an even better idea of what you want to experience next. You're correct in assuming we have say in these types of things. In the spirit world (and consequently in our incarnations) everything we experience is of our choosing. We're not locked into anything. But that gets complicated. Some people are in a type of independent study where they choose each and every life, one at a time, down to the last detail, with little oversight. That may be you. Others (like me) are on a long-term path or curriculum under the guidance of spirit guides, tutors, and life planners. Where we trust them more than we trust ourselves, to pine over minute details of future incarnations. That may be you as well. In either case, it's still of your choosing whether or not you continue with your curriculum, whatever it is. Chances are you are not taking things one life at a time, so be ready for that.

To reword my own rambling, as much as we may wish for one thing, as soon as we 'die' and leave body, go home, and remember the bigger picture... our minds change. That's happened to me several times, where I promise myself R&R after my life is done and instead I just jump to my next one when the time comes even if I'm exhausted spiritually. Right now, even, I really want to just rest and reflect after this life but I'm supposed to reincarnate in 2040's Denmark as a girl named Eden. And while I already know what happens to Eden and want to part in it, I know that in the end I'll change my mind. And there's not much I can do about it. It feels icky, like being chained to destiny, because I still can't quite wrap my mind around it. But that's my experience and it's my understanding of how things work.

Of course your higher self understands your desire to live that life as much as you do, since it is you, and since it has immediate access to all your lives simultaneously and in parallel, including this moment right now... the necessity of your nudging your HS, or HS nudging you, in any direction, becomes impossible and/or unnecessary. It if feels like you need to nudge your HS one way or another in regards to that future life, then you should say kindly 'wtf?' and explore why there's a discrepancy there.

Wallbridge

10th October 2009, 05:56 AM

I appreciate the responses again, and thanks for the memory, RP!

Giving this even more thought, I think I've made a mistake in thinking of the ol' HS as a firm taskmaster, trying desparately to achieve multiple goals and ascension for itself, when I should have been viewing it as a buddy who's trying to help me out. As for the lessons of what I should learn in this life, Serp, if the repetition of certain situations is any indication, I came to learn responsibility, self-reliance, charity, empathy, and duty. I've learned well all these lessons, except I need to put charity into practice more often.

Thanks for the detailed response, too, ymu. I hope that my HS knows that I don't want to lose the goals that I couldn't achieve in this life, and that it will hold off on rejoining the other pieces of myself for just a little longer. That is to say, that I will continue as a similar person in the next life and achieve what I wanted to as the person I am now, instead of putting me in a place that the whole of me wants to go. When my goals are complete, I'll gladly join everything up together and see what's next on my mission.

Perhaps after I die, I could quickly end up in an astral waiting room, get a short briefing of the next life, then shove on out to take on my next challenge ASAP. Also, now that you mentioned that people could live life by life or by a "story arc" of sorts, the former definitely sounds a whole lot more my style, so that may just be the life I'm leading. These ideas are very interesting, and I thank you for sharing them.

dallen9998

22nd October 2009, 06:44 PM

Giving this even more thought, I think I've made a mistake in thinking of the ol' HS as a firm taskmaster, trying desparately to achieve multiple goals and ascension for itself

"K'IA! ~cracks whip~ TOIL, MY LITTLE ASPECTS! TOIL FOR MY ASCENSION!" <-Heh, that's the mental image I got when I read that.

So, I'm just going to throw out this odd thought. If time is non-linear, it's safe to assume that in my next life, I could be the brilliant caveman who invents the wheel, but honestly, what's stopping me from doing a "do-over" ... like ... Ya know, that last life stunk, let's try it again and make it better.

CFTraveler

22nd October 2009, 08:32 PM

what's stopping me from doing a "do-over" ... like ... Ya know, that last life stunk, let's try it again and make it better. Who knows, it could be happening right now.

dallen9998

22nd October 2009, 08:37 PM

Knowing me, this is probably the 7th or 8th time. "Weeeell, last run was good, but it'd like to have acomplished ..."

Wallbridge

28th October 2009, 06:25 AM

"K'IA! ~cracks whip~ TOIL, MY LITTLE ASPECTS! TOIL FOR MY ASCENSION!" <-Heh, that's the mental image I got when I read that.

When I was younger, between the age where I first learned about the astral realm and reincarnation and the age when I eliminated my depression and anger, this is exactly what I thought. I believed the HS was selfishly pursuing goals of personal, spritual fulfillment, and I was its slave... no better than a beatup old Volkswagen to be discarded when it had served its purpose.

I no longer consider myself a slave to anything else than what I bring upon myself, but I'm still concerned that my current ego will be absorbed by my HS when I die, my ego's dreams and wishes will be wiped away, and I will no longer be able to continue what I wanted to do in the next life. At the very least, however, if this does happen, I will know that I made all the correct choices in this life and lived it as an honorable man would have.

ButterflyWoman

28th October 2009, 06:49 AM

I'm still concerned that my current ego will be absorbed by my HS when I die
Why is this a problem? I mean, I don't know nor do I even postulate on the supposed permanence of the soul (not sure I even believe in a discrete soul), but why is your current ego so important that it needs to worry about not existing? (I hope that doesn't sound rude; I promise it's not intended to be, but I can't find any more elegant way to word it.)

I will no longer be able to continue what I wanted to do in the next life
Who is this "I" you're talking about? Seriously. Who/what is behind the ego? Find that, and you'll find much greater peace.

For what it's worth, I doubt very much that anything is ever really "lost". Time is not linear, and everything that has ever or will ever or can ever exist does so all at once. We can't fully appreciate this because of the limitation of ego, but I've had experiences where I've seen things that make me know for sure that time is not what we think it is. To quote Dr Who, it's just a ball of timey-wimey, wibbly-wobbly stuff. It's not a nice neat line like a filmstrip. Everything is, all the time. Nothing is lost, nothing is gained, nothing is destroyed, nothing is created. It's all there, all the time, right now.

Mind you, that's only my perception, based on many mystical experiences that I've managed to retain and process into something I can describe in words. The real truth is a lot bigger and absolutely defies silly things like language to define it. ;)

Wallbridge

28th October 2009, 02:07 PM

Why is this a problem? I mean, I don't know nor do I even postulate on the supposed permanence of the soul (not sure I even believe in a discrete soul), but why is your current ego so important that it needs to worry about not existing? (I hope that doesn't sound rude; I promise it's not intended to be, but I can't find any more elegant way to word it.)

Who is this "I" you're talking about? Seriously. Who/what is behind the ego? Find that, and you'll find much greater peace.

It's ok, I know you're not being rude. Thank you for clarifying, though.

The reason this is a connundrum to me is the answer to your second question, actually. "I" is the human me, the one who resides within this body and is experiencing this world through it. This is the person whose goals and personality I don't want to lose. I wouldn't mind in the slightest if my next life were a different nationality, a different race, a different gender, a different body type or anything else, but I really don't want to come back as a murderer, a drug addict, a boring office worker, or any other honorless, dead end or boring (respectively) life like that. I can lose this body and this identity, but I don't want to lose what I, that is, the human me, want to do with my lives: see the world, meet thousands of people, make friends, work hard, and donate at least half of my paychecks to charity. I don't want to lose my love of people, my strong sense of self-reliance, duty and honor, or my love of freedom.

I really enjoy this illusory physical realm. If I were given the choice of a thousand lifetimes to come back here and grow, or to ascend to the next plane of existence full of beauty and wonder right now, I would choose to stay here. I like to earn what I keep, to wake up not knowing what's going to happen next, to watch myself grow bit by bit, to nurture and care for something and watch it take root. I love to fail in the things I don't like so I can abandon them and move on, and succeed in the things I love and feel pride in my accomplishments. I enjoy the pain as well as the pleasure, because the pain makes the pleasure that much sweeter.

That's why I'm not really interested in advancing beyond this plane to a place of pure love and beauty right now. When I want to learn how to play guitar in the physical, I have to work for the money to buy one, invest scads of time to practice, weather the bad times when my skill doesn't advance, and accept the fact that I will make mistakes, even as a master. If I want to compose a beautiful work of music in the astral, I just ask to. That doesn't sound fulfilling to me.

As such, there are things in this life I wanted to do, but because of present circumstances, I can't complete those goals now. That's why I'm concerned about being wiped clean to start anew as something this ego, that is, the human me, doesn't want. This is also the reason I'm trying to get into contact with my HS to confirm that I can continue the next life as the person I am now, just without the memories of this life, and be able to complete what I wanted to do. It's also why I teach myself every day to have faith in Mr. H, and myself, to not give up when I'm so close. :)

If I live a few more lives and find that this love of freedom and travel doesn't suit me, I will gladly find another way to spend my precious time here in the physical. What I don't want is to have this desire erased like chalk on a chalkboard, simply because of the nature of reincarnation. That's why I asked what I asked in this thread, and why I'm so thankful for all of your responses to get an idea of your opinions on the matter. Thank you all again for your support!

And when I get into contact with Mr. H, I'll let you guys know what he said, too. :)

Palehorse Redivivus

28th October 2009, 04:36 PM

This is also the reason I'm trying to get into contact with my HS to confirm that I can continue the next life as the person I am now, just without the memories of this life, and be able to complete what I wanted to do. It's also why I teach myself every day to have faith in Mr. H, and myself, to not give up when I'm so close.

Just wanted to say -- keep goin'. :)

I had the half-suspicion of "HS as spiritual taskmaster," though more than that I think my view was "HS as detached non-personality that has moved "beyond" caring what goes on here (as well as personality) and thus can't be consistently relied upon for any sort of support while I keep on with the daily slog."

At this point I have found to my satisfaction that neither is true. I have also found there to be a thread of continuity that runs through all my lives, so that while culture and circumstances are different, it's like... when I find things out about how other lives have gone, there's less a sense of "me as totally different person and no continuity with this life" and more the sense of "me in different circumstances, recognizably doing what I'd do under said circumstances." It's not that the HS just mixes and matches a bunch of traits and throws them into a lifetime as totally different people each time, like a Sims character; more like, a 3D microcosm of the HS, who plays the same evolving character at all levels but has to account for historical and personal circumstances here.

What I've observed is that there is continuity, but there's also the issue of the between-life memory wipe, followed by a bunch of programming and redirection (and in many cases, trauma) that obscures, distorts and fragments said continuity. As you've seen, while full of potential, this place is very good at putting people in situations where they've got the willingness, the awareness, the ability, pretty much everything BUT the tools they'd need to fully express and self-realize. Most who are able to move beyond the tendency to succumb and identify with and never question the programming and misdirection, go the route of trying to get rid of the Self in order to overcome the disparity and the discomfort it causes. My approach is a bit different -- IMO it is not the Self that is the problem, it's the fact that we forget ourselves each time and then have to spend decades just going "wait, what was I doing, again?"... and that's if we even think to ask. Then there are those who discover a strong sense of who they are, but feel like they've woken up in a life that completely doesn't match, and have no way to get from A to B, which you may be able to relate to. So, I'm aiming, not for self-annihilation, but to overcome the lapses in continuity and establish a working flow of energy and information between the HS and all lifetimes in real-time. That should expedite this whole business of integration and expression methinks.

Anyway, I don't want to bias your own exploration before you've established reliable communication with your HS -- take whatever encouragement you can from this, discard the rest and keep on truckin'. :)

JoSac

28th October 2009, 05:43 PM

I've been reading a lot of Robert Monroe and he seems to think after a few cycles through the human process, you start to choose you're next life and the duration of it. He also says humans can get caught in the process or repeated reincarnation because they get so foucused on the physical world. Idn if this is for sure, but its something to think about.

JS

Ouroboros

28th October 2009, 07:20 PM

what's stopping me from doing a "do-over" ... like ... Ya know, that last life stunk, let's try it again and make it better. Who knows, it could be happening right now.

I've always wondered if that's where deja vous originated. :P

CFTraveler

28th October 2009, 09:42 PM

Me too. Or that feeling that 'something's changed about how things work and I can't put my finger on it.'

ButterflyWoman

28th October 2009, 10:31 PM

"I" is the human me, the one who resides within this body and is experiencing this world through it.
Well, that's not really who you are. Look behind that, look beyond it. Seriously, if you can get out of the material "I" (the one with all the ideas about how things are supposed to be and who you are and what you're supposed to do, etc.) and start to observe from that perspective rather than the material, your concerns and fears will start to dissolve.

That's really the only way I know of to get past this kind of thing. What you're really saying, when you get down to it is, "Oh, no, I've realised I'm going to die, and I don't want that to happen." You're not that worried about physical death, it seems, but it's still about death. Get past the fear of death and you'll find whole new vistas opening up in ways you couldn't even have imagined. :)

Wallbridge

29th October 2009, 02:00 PM

Palehorse, you really touched on something, and OW, you are really helping me to understand it better (plus, Jo is giving me some excellent encouragement!). Again, thanks to everyone for your views.

That Sims example really helped me to understand this situation. I'm kind of like a Sim, acting out what Mr. H has set up for me, but even if he starts a new Sim in a new life, there's still the same driving force behind everything. Even though I become a new person, it's still me under there, just in a different situation, constantly evolving. The things I worry about losing upon death, like the fundamental person I am and the lessons I have learned, carry over.

Also, OW's point has got me thinking that it's not death that I fear, but being trapped in a situation that doesn't match the kind of person I am (the aforementioned murderer, drug addict or office worker example). But taking into account that the me who wants to continue on DOES continue on, and that I simply dump all the things that don't matter to me (skin color, nationality, gender, etc...) is cause for hope. My desire to act with honor, travel and meet people stems from an underlying desire for pure love, duty and freedom, and as long as I am nurturing that aspect of me, I think I will be ok. Even if I come back as a drug addict, Fundamental Me will be crying out for me to rise above addiction (or shame, or guilt, or whatever other bad emotions I cultivate in my less than ideal life) the whole way. Who knows, I may even learn something from it in the process. It's not like I found my true calling in this life right off the bat; it took eight years of depression and four years of anger for me to confront my personal issues, find peace and see the world with fresh eyes.

On that note, I tried to connect to Mr. H last night with simple questions and greetings, and though I didn't receive a response of words or pictures, I did have a more lucid dream than normal last night. I will be happily keeping this up until I finally strike up a meeting and get some questions answered, for sure. It also helps to have you fine people bouncing your views off of mine and encouraging me along the way. :)

ButterflyWoman

29th October 2009, 02:13 PM

I fear [...] being trapped in a situation that doesn't match the kind of person I am
Except you're only "that kind of person" because of the beliefs, memories, ideas, thoughts, and other material concepts you've gathered around you in this lifetime and decided to adopt as who you are. You aren't those things. Or, to put it another way, it's not who you are, it's just what you do.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the values you've adopted, of course, but they're only beliefs, and beliefs are only thoughts you think over and over until it becomes a habit. This is the soap opera character you're playing in this lifetime. It's not the fundamental Self, only a mask and a limited perspective that the Self is adopting in order to experience Creation in a unique way.

(the aforementioned murderer, drug addict or office worker example)
The thing is, if you were born into a life where you became a drug addict, that's what the Self would be then. The "you" that you are now wouldn't be "trapped" anywhere because the you that you are now is the you that you are now, and the you who (could be) a drug addict or a prostitute or a burger flipper or whatever is not the same you. Each perspective is unique, and as time is not linear, they all exist at once.

Not sure if that makes any sense. It's the whole wibbly wobbly timey wimey thing again. Hard to explain. :)

Anyway, here's something to ponder. How do you think other incarnations of "you" like being the "you" that "you" are now? Do you suppose they're sitting around inside your head somewhere going, "Man, I hate being this guy!" or "Wow, I love being this guy, it's way better than who I was!" or something like that? Trapped in your life, with your values (which they may or may not even like or appreciate, who knows?), in your gender, with your skin colour and your parents and your job... What if you were Genghis Khan in a past life, how do you suppose old Genghis would feel about having to be you?

Does that all sound kind of silly? If so, that's good, because it's meant to be, but there is a point to it. Who you become is who you will be when you become it. The "you" that is you right now isn't even the "you" who will exist in a week or a year or ten years. The "you" who will exist in some other lifetime, past or present or simultaneously (wibbly wobbly timey wimey again ;)) is who they/you are. The you who is you is only going to be the you who is you. Not the you who is not you. Or something. Hmm. ;)

Wallbridge

1st November 2009, 03:50 PM

That makes me very hopeful, and my ideas on reincarnation are molding ever so slightly to something much more calming. If I were Genghis Khan in a past life, I think there would be no Genghis Khan yelling for me to slaughter others from the beyond, because he has evolved into the completely different someone that I am now. In essence, I feel there are two mes: the one typing now, and Mr. H. When I die and return, there will still be two mes, but the next Ego me will simply have a different name, look and memories. Hopefully, I'll find what I'm looking for, now, at that time.

And yes, I could very well abandon the things I want to do this life for something new before I even finish this life. Who knows, right?

About the loopy time thing, you can try and explain it to me, if you wish. I would like to know what you know! I have some familiarity with the very basics of quantum physics, astronomy and the like, so if you mention things like time loops, parallel universes, membranes and causality, I should know what you mean.

I tried to contact Mr. H the past few nights, but I've been so wiped from work that I've had nothing more than dark and blank dreams that I can scarcely remember. I'll keep trying.

ButterflyWoman

1st November 2009, 03:59 PM

About the loopy time thing, you can try and explain it to me, if you wish. I would like to know what you know!
Well, it's not what I know, just what I've experienced. Different thing, that.

Basically, time is not linear. We experience time sort of like a filmstrip. This happens, then that happens, then something else happens, and with everything that happens, things change. But time is only linear from our limited human perspective. It's actually all happening at once. Everything. There is no "before" or "after", there is no "past" or "future". It's just a matter of everything at the same time. The "me" I was when I was seventeen (and a real piece of work she was, let me tell you) still exists at that particular point in the space-time continuum. So does Genghis Khan. So does everything and every one.

I also very strongly suspect, from things I've seen, that reality is actually unlimited. Every decision you make, every step you take, every move you make (every vow you break... sorry, had a Sting moment), it can all be different, and all of those possibilities exist, at some point in the multiverse. It's four dimensional as far as I can tell.

However, these are just words, and they're not really adequate to explain it. Wibbly wobbly timey wimey... I love Dr Who... ;)

Palehorse Redivivus

1st November 2009, 06:33 PM

I'm pretty much with what she said above. ^ Although one thing I'd add, is that I strongly suspect that the "past" continues to evolve along with the present and future, all communicating, exchanging energy and information, and influencing each other. So to refer back to our old buddy Genghis -- if he has an incarnation in 2009, then the Genghis from centuries ago who is connected to him-now is not necessarily "locked" into the same self-expression as the guy we read about.

Then again, our beliefs that history is fixed and unchanging (and that we actually have an accurate view of it) may impose an artificial lock on it in practice, since that would be influencing it too... not sure on that. Maybe that's the basis for the whole "doomed to repeat it" thing; we've got all these selves imposing such a rigid and fixed view on each other. Hm.

ButterflyWoman

1st November 2009, 09:50 PM

Then again, our beliefs that history is fixed and unchanging (and that we actually have an accurate view of it)
I don't believe that, but I've studied quite a lot of history, so I'm entirely familiar with how theoretical it all is. There's a reason why history is an art and not a science. ;)

Maybe that's the basis for the whole "doomed to repeat it" thing; we've got all these selves imposing such a rigid and fixed view on each other. Hm.
Interesting thought.

Wallbridge

2nd November 2009, 04:58 AM

I had an interesting experience last night. I read up on all the ways people try to contact the Higher Self and put them into practice to see what would happen.

I imagined the most comfortable place I have ever experienced, a youth hostel where I stayed a few years ago, and decided that that was the place where I would meet Mr. H. I also imagined him looking like I did when I was at my happiest. To get to this comfortable place, I imagined walking in the back door of the hostel and riding the elevator up to the eleventh floor where my room was, remembering the feel of the elevator buttons, the sounds of my echoing footsteps, and so on. Then, I walked past the reception area where the hostel owner and a very good friend of mine were, said hello to the both of them, then went to the living area where I had once slept.

When I got there, Mr. H was there, looking just as I was at that time in my life, and was radiating light with a welcoming smile. We sat down together on the bed, and after we said hello, we began to talk.

I asked if my next life would let me continue the goals I wanted in this life, and he said, "Of course!" I then asked if time was all here at every time, and whether everything I would do had already been planned out and was unchangeable. He said that it didn't really matter, because no matter the nature of time or my lives, I would continue on with the values and lessons I had learned in this life, exactly what I was hoping for.

Then I asked why I couldn't be these things in this life, and what he said next really struck me.

He said that, first of all, I asked for this life. And it's true, I distinctly remember the moment when I told myself, "I'm ready. I'm ready to meet the love of my life and settle down. This is the greatest gift I could ask for, and I'm ready."

A little background: when I was younger, I always wanted to have a girlfriend and get married and have kids, and I spent years trying to attain this goal of mine, to express love and be loved back. But when I finally got married and had a son, I found life to be much more mundane, boring and repetitive than I had originally planned. It was certainly no match to the life I used to lead, living alone, touring about the city, meeting hundreds of people, volunteering my time and money to charity, and so on.

Continuing on, Mr. H said that if I had continued on in this blissful life with this amazing freedom (a goal I only realized when I was free of my depression and anger), and not gotten married, I would have always wondered, "What if?"

What if I had gotten married instead of drifting about with pure freedom? Would that life be better than this one? These thoughts would have poisoned the happiness of freedom that I had finally attained, and I would never have been as happy with my free life if I had never put my first (and less interesting, as I found out) goal to the test. Now that I've had the chance to live and feel a married life as good, but very boring, my next life would not be filled with the same questions of "What if?" and "Did I make the right choice?"

He then brought some examples to the table. He showed me images of how I always lived my life, and showed me that it was always like this. He showed me the video games I play, where I play all the boring parts first and save the amazing stuff for last. He showed my meal habits of eating bread or drinking juice before I dived into the pizza. He showed me the times I came home from school, barreled straight into my homework to get it done, then spent the rest of the day watching TV or with friends. He basically told me that I always prepare future bliss by doing all of the work first, and leaving the great stuff for last, and that is exactly what this life was.

Thinking more on it now, I see exactly what he was saying. My life from age 13-25 was a total garbage dump of depression and anger, but though I didn't understand it then, I was trying to cultivate, better and cure myself before I allowed myself the opportunity to live the life I always dreamed of. The brief six months of freedom I had between depression and anger (13-25), and my subsequent married life (25 1/2 to today), was a small peek into what I was storing up for myself in the next life.

At this time, the side of my body started to hurt in my bed, so I turned over to get more comfortable. When I tried to contact Mr. H again, there was no response, so I traced my steps back up the elevator, past the reception area and my friends to my room, and there he was again. I thanked him for his help, and he continued.

He also warned me not to think of this life as a waste, and to realize that although this life was boring to me and not what I had planned or wanted from the getgo, that I should still realize that it's a good life. My family is good, my relatively comfortable life is good, and I should view what I'm experiencing now as not only preparation of what is to come, but also a chance to receive love, as well as express it.

After I got all this information, I thanked him, disconnected and came back to awareness of my body, then went to sleep.

I'm not sure if this whole thing was just my own mind trying to console me or a true meeting between the two of us, but it did make me realize a lot of things. It was a great experience, and I will try and repeat it over and over until I get a true astral projection/lucid dream experience to the same place. :)

ButterflyWoman

2nd November 2009, 07:41 AM

Just a comment on "boring" (I did read the rest of the post; I just had a comment on this ;)). Boredome is totally relative. Being bored is an ego-based emotional/mental response we have to certain situations, and nothing more.

I used to get bored and restless very easily, and I went to great lengths to alleviate that boredom. I never get bored now, despite the fact that my life is, by most standards, quite mundane and unexciting. I relish the lack of drama. I can sit in complete silence for an hour or more, just staring contentedly at some object or out the window, with no need to be entertained or stimulated or otherwise "not-bored". I don't know how this happened, other than it seems to be a by-product of expanding awareness and, frankly, a life so "exciting" and dramatic I got sick of it. I also think that meditation has helped with my ability to just be at peace without the need to assess the situation as boring or not.

I have to say, the ability to just BE, without needing drama or excitement or stimulation or entertainment, is one of the greatest things I've experienced. Psychic ability, OBE, unity-consciousness, that stuff is all perfectly fine and useful and interesting, but being able to enjoy a quiet life and never get bored is... Well, I guess it's "the peace that surpasses all understanding". :)

Well worth cultivating, if you can. It's a great pleasure to lead a mundane, boring life. :D

(I think this went a little off topic. Apologies for that. I just felt like writing that and I'm glad I did, because even if it doesn't help anyone else, it was helpful to me to write it down, so I'm thankful for that opportunity. ;))

Wallbridge

4th November 2009, 02:16 PM

Although I am still looking forward to a future life of freedom, I have taken your advice to heart. I am actively trying every day to see the beauty in everyday things, and to view life with amazement as I did when I was totally free a few years ago. Thanks! :)

As an example, when I was on my own during my blissful time, I once looked at the world like this:

"Whoa! A furniture store! I wonder what they sell there, and how many people work inside... cool chair! Wow, nice tree! How old is it? It's real green."

Which changed to this after marriage:

"Identify: building. Don't drive into it. Identify: scooter. Avoid. Identify: students. Teach. Identify: bed. Sleep."

Just today, I came out of McDonalds and took the time to check out the grass out front, and I actually thought, "Hey, grass! Haven't seen that in a while. Cool." Sounds dorky, I know, but it beats the alternative. :o

ButterflyWoman

4th November 2009, 03:12 PM

Doesn't sound dorky to me. I do the same thing. Since I started to take deliberate pleasure in everyday things, my life has just gotten much sweeter. Grass, flowers, the way raindrops run down a window pane, the feeling of cold water in my mouth as I drink it, all of that is wonderful, when I pay attention to it. ;)

Palehorse Redivivus

7th November 2009, 03:18 AM

Every now and then some intuitive insight comes through for me in a pithy "Zen wisdom" sorta way, and that happened earlier; may or may not resonate for you, Wallbridge...

The gist of it was that "To allow one relationship to put arbitrary restrictions on one's ability to enjoy other relationships, prevents full enjoyment of ALL relationships, including the original one."

While never married, I've been in relationships that had the effect you describe, and I've been in others that didn't. IMO the problem is not relationships or even marriage per se -- it's that most people equate "relationships" with "having to put artificial restrictions on the way I relate to my world and other people." A marriage contract, which comes with a lot of associated thoughtforms attached, even has it built in, what with the whole "forsaking all others" bit. It is possible to remove the thoughtforms from your energy body (and thus probably get back much of the dynamic and "color" that you're missing) without ending the relationship, though I'd recommend a lot of open communication if you go that route, because the energetic changes will likely change the dynamic of the relationship in a way that may shake up your partner.

ButterflyWoman

7th November 2009, 08:10 AM

I've been in relationships that had the effect you describe, and I've been in others that didn't. IMO the problem is not relationships or even marriage per se -- it's that most people equate "relationships" with "having to put artificial restrictions on the way I relate to my world and other people." A marriage contract, which comes with a lot of associated thoughtforms attached, even has it built in, what with the whole "forsaking all others" bit.
Agreed. There's a LOT of baggage that tends to come with the idea of what "married people" are supposed to do, think, be like, etc. There's even more associated with how a parent is supposed to act. What they might be depends on one's particular conditioning.

I can tell you firsthand that sometimes, everything is fine until the ring goes on the finger, and then, suddenly, everything changes. This is not due to any particular change in the relationship, usually, but in the expectations, perceptions, ideas, beliefs, etc. associated with "marriage".

Not all marriages are like that, of course. I've been very happily married for more than a decade and I don't feel at all restricted, bored, constricted, or otherwise hampered by the relationship. That has not, however, always been the case (see above). Get rid of the thoughtforms and beliefs that marriage is supposed to be like X or you're supposed to act like Y or feel like Z, and the relationship will take on completely new dynamics (which may be quite disturbing, as mentioned).

Palehorse Redivivus

7th November 2009, 05:38 PM

What she said. *nod*

I theorize that by default, "marriage" comes with a sort of energetic "template," and if it is not entered into consciously, then that's what you end up with. You go from the individuals you started out as, to "placeholders" within a role that has been externally defined. Said template has evolved over the centuries; I might go as far as to say "degraded." The one that's attached to marriage today in 2009 actually seems to have the opposite effect that it's "supposed" to -- which is to say that it comes with a lot of restriction, and division that turns the two people more into adversaries than allies, and helps explain why the divorce rate is through the roof. In short: the two people end up serving the thoughtform, rather than entering into an arrangment that benefits and enriches both parties. Not surprising that this arrangement tends to suck the life out of people!

But... it doesn't have to.

You can observe the template, know that it's an energetic template imposing itself rather than "the way things are" or "the way marriage is," and you can make something that is the product of the unique (and evolving) wants and needs of two unique individuals. In general, anytime you can take something and make it your own, either alone or as a joint creative collaboration with someone else, you get back that experience of life-as-art.

ymunio

8th November 2009, 11:07 AM

To impose external rules on a personal relationship just begs for trouble. Marriage is such a personal thing. No legal system on earth should ever recognize any marriage, for the same reason it shouldn't recognize friendships. Because unlike business arrangements, it's not a government's place to govern social relationships. Same applies to family members. If you want to have a meaningful and romantic wedding... just disinvite everyone. Then you've got a very personal and intimate ritual between two people who are focused on each other instead of on creating some big expensive and disgusting display of wealth.

Isn't that what a wedding should be? What a marriage should be? Something personal between two people? Try to impress your parents or your friends, or invite their arbitrary religious or cultural nonsense into your relationship, and you might as well be inviting them all into your bedroom as well. Because you're asking for a messy and frustrating ride that will likely end in chaos and embarrassment. I"m so lucky to have married a woman who is as disinterested as in cultural norms as I am. We got married in a private ceremony in Las Vegas. In the years since we've been happy and our relationship has been laid back and friendly. We treat each other as equals, neither of us has any authority over the other. At least not for long. And this confuses people who assume we're like everyone else. Rigid, traditional, hierarchical. That's not to say that we're not constantly testing each others' boundaries, and arguing from time to time. We even flirt with other people in front of the other, because that's normal human nature and we aren't in denial about that. Sometimes I look around at other relationships and I see how empty they are, founded on insecurity and other people's opinions, and restrictions. No wonder the divorce rate is so high.

ymunio

8th November 2009, 11:49 AM

I forgot to say, more to the subject of this thread, how frustrating it is to have no actual memory of ever choosing this incarnation or the lessons to be learned here. I feel powerless like I'm chained to a roller coaster on a path of destiny that I have no control over. Because, for all I know, this path could lead to an unimaginable hell. And I'm just supposed to just feel good about wherever it takes me because supposedly I agreed to it all ahead of time? Come on. What's especially fishy is that I'm not SUPPOSED to remember choosing all of this (oh how convenient) because there's some sort of amnesia barrier that's put in place to keep me lost and isolated from my spiritual identity, and somehow that is also supposed to be there for my best interests? And I'm just supposed to trust that this is all a perfect system and that everything is jolly and grand.

But it makes me wonder, what else could I have agreed to? What if I agreed to be tortured to death and to have my soul shattered into foam and scattered across the earth to float around aimlessly in enormous spiritual pain for hundreds of millions of years? I don't know that I didn't agree to that. That's terrifying to think about.

This brings the question, how ethical is it to have someone agree to endure something awful, and then impose upon them a cloud of amnesia that makes them forget they ever made the agreement? Because if you swallow that this is what happens from one incarnation to the next then you're a prisoner in just that type of system. It seems unethical because beyond that point of amnesia you have a poor frightened soul that is just looking around in powerless horror wondering why things are so awful, with no idea why they are there, with no say in their fate even though they may know more about the situation now than they did before and might not make the same agreement.

How is it we're supposed to be okay with this during an incarnation? What if I approached a stranger on the street and just punched him in the mouth with all my strength? And when he demands to know why I did such a thing, I say, "oh, yesterday we arranged this face-punching together and you even signed a constract saying it would be okay. Oh, and nevermind that you have no idea what I'm talking about. You really did agree to this, you just don't remember, because, oh yeah, you wanted me to erase your memory of it. Now while you think about how rediculous that all sounds, I'm going to punch you seven more times, just like you asked me to..."

How do we know we're not in that situation with this reincarnation thing? What if we're all just being held captive in this 3-d matrix having our negative emotions and physical pain harvested from us routinely as tasty food for our captors who are masquerading as spirit guides?

CFTraveler

8th November 2009, 02:01 PM

But it makes me wonder, what else could I have agreed to? What if I agreed to be tortured to death and to have my soul shattered into foam and scattered across the earth to float around aimlessly in enormous spiritual pain for hundreds of millions of years? I don't know that I didn't agree to that. That's terrifying to think about.
What I have to wonder, is why would anyone agree to such a thing, and what makes you think you would? Why think about this at all? Feed your fear with fear, and you are making it true.

ButterflyWoman

8th November 2009, 02:47 PM

You also have to ask: With whom would you be agreeing, anyway?

In my personal ever-expanding awareness and experience (not that I claim all-knowingness or anything, but it is always expanding), the bottom line is that there is no "me and you" or "us and them", it's all One.

Palehorse Redivivus

8th November 2009, 07:19 PM

This brings the question, how ethical is it to have someone agree to endure something awful, and then impose upon them a cloud of amnesia that makes them forget they ever made the agreement?

My hunch is that this is one of the many New Age beliefs carried over from mainstream religion. Really, how is it much different from telling someone with no inclination toward your religion of choice, "you didn't accept my brand of religion, so you deliberately chose to be tortured / killed / burn in hell for all eternity"?

On the other hand, I can say that there are things in the subconscious mind that are willing and capable of inflicting every last bit of suffering you've endured with uncanny precision, regardless of your choices, intentions or awareness that they exist. Your unconscious "stuff" comes into resonance and proximity with a person, entity or situation that resonates with that specific type of suffering, and voila: you've got a shyte sammich; bon appetit.

If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.
- Gospel of Thomas, verse 70.

Yeah, that. :P Kind of a raw deal at times, but that seems to be what the situation is. Doesn't mean those who choose to "help" our darkest aspects play out in the physical aren't responsible for their choices; it would be much more efficient and effective if we were able to observe and point out each other's blind spots and say "yo, dude, you might want to be aware of this before it plays out," rather than this situation where those in power are essentially the most proficient at both causing and evading responsibility for suffering (though to some extent, we all do this, it should be said).

The situation is that we've got suffering, we've got amnesia, and we know those two are pretty closely connected. What we can only speculate on is the origin of this whole situation... until we figure out how to cure the amnesia. Thus, I'd say focusing on the solution, rather than the problem, would probably be the most effective way of not perpetuating the problem.

Wallbridge

11th November 2009, 04:46 AM

That quote and my epiphany/possible Mr. H meeting helped, Pale, ymu and OW, thanks!

Marriage and parenthood have required me to give up a lot in my life, and to accept many restrictions that are very much not artificial. I can no longer wake up when I wish, meet the people I want to meet, move to or tour new cities, or even go for a walk as long as I have two other people to care for. But thanks to my experience last week and your support, I no longer view this situation as something to suffer. I once viewed my life as a cage, and I was waiting for the release of death to get me out of the box and into the sunshine of a new life. Now I view my life as eating a delicious plate of spaghetti and cheese, with a big ol' malt milkshake waiting when this life is done and I accept my new life. It's getting much better to be me, frankly.

It's weird, because I have gone through this stage of emotional trouble being cured by deep meditation and support from others, and the timelines went like this:

8 years - Depressed
4 years - Angry
2 years - Faithless

I wonder what the next emotional situation to arise will be, and whether it will take 1 year to conquer. :)

As for your concern, ymu, I felt that way before, too. It took a lot of looking inwards to find my answer, and though I claimed to trust the otherside two years ago, it seems I had even more to learn once I got married. From where I stand now, what I feel is that there are pieces of our lives that are pre-destined to happen, such as parents' divorce, marriage, college, etc..., but everything in-between is up to us to choose willingly. During that time, we can enjoy our free time watching TV, spend it with friends and family, meditate, study, or even choose entire new paths to follow in our lives. Everything that was chosen by us to experience before we came here was agreed to, not just as a willy-nilly whim, but because every experience we chose has something to help us learn and grow. I once hated my life for everything that was going wrong in my mind and family, but as I confronted and rose above my circumstances, I learned to appreciate what I took away from each experience. Even the worst things that we can imagine can leave us stronger, happier and more free in the end.

I guess what I want to say is have faith that you made the right choices before you came here, and keep your eyes peeled and mind open for the things you wanted to learn so you can achieve the goals you set for yourself. Have faith that the "other" you knows what's best for the you reading these words.

ButterflyWoman

11th November 2009, 05:10 AM

I once viewed my life as a cage, and I was waiting for the release of death to get me out of the box and into the sunshine of a new life.
Ouch. Been there, done that. (Not in relation to parenthood or marriage, though.)

Now I view my life as eating a delicious plate of spaghetti and cheese, with a big ol' malt milkshake waiting when this life is done and I accept my new life. It's getting much better to be me, frankly.
Fantastic! I'm gratified to have been of some help to you.

ymunio

21st November 2009, 07:08 AM

I guess what I want to say is have faith that you made the right choices before you came here, and keep your eyes peeled and mind open for the things you wanted to learn so you can achieve the goals you set for yourself. Have faith that the "other" you knows what's best for the you reading these words.
That was my first inclination, to just trust the other side, when i was first regaining my spiritual memory of past/future/between-life events. You remember life-planning sessions where you discuss with spirit guides ad nauseam what karmic accounts you still have open, what life lessons you need to work on, you map out timelines with life-planners as if free will is just an illusion you enjoy during incarnations. You really want to hope that during those times you really had your best interests in mind. However if there's one thing I've learned in this life, it's the necessity for constant discernment, for always questioning assumptions, for re-evaluating trust placed in even the closest of relationships. Not out of fear, but out of the need for constant and ongoing discernment, which I think comes with understanding and experience with negatively-oriented entities and how they operate. It's a whole series of lessons we go through after we're done with power/control lessons and have learned to empathize with others. We get to learn how negative entities use our own tendencies for trust and love until we learn to balance those things with wisdom and understanding. My own mother tried to kill me in 2002. Naturally I'm going to question motives of my spirit guides.

Palehorse Redivivus

21st November 2009, 04:47 PM

Ymunio -- I reached pretty much the same position you did on it, though not in the same way. Suffice to say that bureaucracy "up there" is serving roughly the same purpose as it is down here, and the only real purpose served by either, other than the best interest of the bureaucracy itself, is to present another set of obstacles to overcome.

As an aside, if you're having problems that seem to originate with mom -- check your anima (unconscious female aspect in men). Not saying some problems *don't* originate with mom in some cases, but the anima is where they all end up (and then originate from and self-perpetuate, from then onward). Being unable to trust one's biological mom additionally tends to create trust issues, and manifest *reasons* to mistrust, across the board.

Wallbridge

20th December 2010, 03:05 AM

A whole year, huh? Cool. Here's a little update.

I started doing lucid dream work by keeping dream journals, and 100% of the eighty or so dreams I recorded over a six month period fell into three categories:

1. I'm having a hugely fun time with my life, then someone or something comes along to force an end to all of it.
2. I'm living in a video game (which is just a reference to how I spend my free time).
3. A combination of 1 & 2.

I had two experiences where I was close to separating. In one dream I was climbing to the top of a haunted apartment building to exorcise the spirits on the top floor (Ghostbusters?), there was a loud "pop" and I knew I was dreaming. The second, I don't remember the dream, but I felt a rushing feeling in my body, knew I was dreaming, then partially separated with minimal consciousness before "going back to sleep."

I stopped doing dream work when real life drama reared its ugly head and I no longer had the strength to continue on with it. So then, I turned my attention to what I could physically do to assure stronger spirituality, which would lead to being more awake when I die, and therefore having more choice on my next life.

To that end, I quit smoking cold turkey three months ago and haven't touched a cigarette since. This is to avoid a possible situation of dying early, then being told, "Hey, you did really well taking care of your family, but you didn't finish your life as you were supposed to! You didn't have the experience of being a grandfather, and an old married man! Now you have to go back and get married again the next life and do it all over again!"

Also, and more importantly, I pray for misfortune, trouble and pain to befall me, and only me. This way, I can temper my own spirit as much as possible this life, which feels like little more than a training life to me. This will also leave the next life to live in the service of others, but also give me the opportunity to follow my dreams and enjoy myself, too.

I think I'll go back to the dream journals and try to AP some more tonight. Six months is the longest I've ever done consecutive astral projection training... so maybe I can bump it up to twelve this time.

Wallbridge

20th December 2010, 10:48 AM

Thanks for your kind words, friend. Itry to do the right thing at all times, though I still make mistakes. You are correct that I could try to help out more people now, too. I try to keep my eyes peeled for people who need help, though I could be doing more.

I'm hoping that by shovelling out and dealing with all my major karmic baggage now, that I can use this life that didn't turn out as I hoped as a springboard to the one I want to live next time around. That way, I'll spend less time moping around and accomplishing nothing in this life that I don't particularly like, and use that time to get some real work done. Lord knows, given my history of depression, I've probably spent more than enough of my past lives sitting around and feeling sorry for myself without trying to better things.

The stronger I become, the more people I can assist, and the better my chances of finding happiness for myself, too. Honor and service come first, but if I can suffer and endure enough this life, I think I can shoot for it all the next time around.

Korpo

20th December 2010, 12:27 PM

Hello, Wallbridge.

Karma is a lot about learning what you have to learn. Suffering isn't synonymous with karma, it's something that has a lot to do with our attitudes and expectations. However, it's not as easily transcended as just realising that, it takes some work.

So, instead of asking for bad luck, which isn't karma at all, you might ask for the lessons that will help you to grow (they will be challenging) and the discriminating wisdom and endurance you might need to successfully learn them.

Learning through suffering without understanding is probably the slowest way. You don't realize yet what opportunity lies before you by the simple fact that you can lucidly reflect your circumstances. You can explore this opportunity. There's no guarantee that whatever you originally thought worthwhile is actually your plan for this lifetime, nor is there any reason to think of a lifetime as a failure as long as you have opportunity to grow and learn.

Cheers,
Oliver

Wallbridge

20th December 2010, 02:09 PM

Sorry, I didn't explain anything very well at all. I'm a dork that way; please let me try again, if I may.

When I ask for suffering and pain, Korpo, it is for the express purpose of helping me to overcome hidden karmic debt and emotional baggage I haven't dealt with yet. For example, I didn't know that I had trouble with anger due to the disobedience and poor behavior of those in my charge (my students and son), and I have irrationally blown my top several times with really bad kids over the last three years.

But when I asked for suffering to help highlight and overcome my inner faults, very shortly after, I had an entire week of godawful students and temper-santrum son moments. And because I knew I was training myself every minute of my life, I was able to step back and reflect on how I could act at those moments, and chose a path that didn't involve me screaming at them to stop.

When I had successfully solved several similar student and son situations (alliteration ftw), I knew I had made major headway into my anger issues, and asked for the next test to make me stronger. Later, I fought with my wife over something stupid and walked out of the house to clear my head, returned, then vowed never to leave in the middle of a fight again. I learned a little humility, then I asked for more trials. And so on! :D

Also, I haven't been depressed for about seven years. When I decided I wanted to stop being a victim and start taking control of my life, I firmly set my mind to getting better and didn't stop until I was done. But I thank you for your advice all the same, Ether. :)

I also heavily subscribe to the Buddhist principle that "Attachment Leads to Suffering." In fact, when a Buddhist friend of mine told me that a few years ago as just an off-hand comment, it changed my life. Unfortunately, I didn't take the advice to heart before I got married, but after I've learned my lessons, and taken care of and loved my family this life, I hope to make this adage a part of my next life, right behind "Honor First," "Grow and Experience" and "Never Give Up."

I'm dream journalin' again tonight. Wish me luck!

Korpo

20th December 2010, 03:18 PM

Hello, Wallbridge.

Understood. What I tried to say, however, is that your wish/intention/affirmation would allow for a lot more positive outcomes and lessons if you used a neutral term like "learning." You're kind of excluding that possibility by allowing only for bad stuff, possibly because of a limited understanding of karma. Karma isn't bad by itself, that's a human concept that got attached to it.

Your lessons might not always show up in a different way if you switch terms - but sometimes they might. Also, it involves breaking down the belief structures about a connection between suffering, "bad karma" and hardship of some kind. Changing the way you talk about it can be an important step in opening up to that possibility.

Cheers,
Oliver

Beekeeper

21st December 2010, 11:01 AM

Wallbridge,I suggest you read Brian Weiss, Many Lives, Many Masters.

Wallbridge

21st December 2010, 02:33 PM

Evening, everybody.

Thanks for the tip, Korpo. I'll try to change my language around a bit to get more lessons through. I think the reason I'm asking for the karmic lessons that are learned through pain, though, is because I want to get through all of the ones that require physical suffering, emotional torment and spiritual black nights, and save the happier lessons for my next life.

For example, I would rather learn humility through shame, or strength through loss this life, but save learning open-mindedness through experience, or confidence through responsibility next life. If I'm going to be eating bland oatmeal for the rest of my current life, I'd prefer to eat my vegetables while I was at it, and save pie for the next life. I know I'm looking at karma through a physical lens of what composes "fun" and "boring," or "pleasure" and "pain," but hey, I may be spirit deep down inside, but while I'm reincarnating on earth, I'm human... and I enjoy being one. :D

I'm glad to be out of that cycle, too, Ether. It only started because a good friend of mine simply asked me, "Do you want to get better?" and I just answered, "Yes." After that, I didn't stop until I identified, scooped out and fixed every problem within me. It took about four years to do (only because I didn't know what I was doing), but I eventually made it.

And Beekeeper, is Dr. Weiss the guy who wrote a book about a woman who was coming to him for therapy, and she started remembering past lives where she was constantly intertwined with the same man, and that he was also seeking therapy with the same doctor? Then they met on an airplane, got married and had a kid who loves butterflies? Or is that a different book/author? That book gave me hope in reincarnation existing!

Unfortunately, only an off-hand comment by Robert Bruce in one of his blogs, that we have more choice in reincarnation the more spiritually advanced we are, helped to explain my role in the process. I sure hope he's right, but I'm glad you reminded me of that book and gave me a bit more courage. Thanks!

CFTraveler

21st December 2010, 04:38 PM

Hey Wallbridge.
Just a couple of comments- Karma is the result of a process, not a mathematical equation in which the result is zero- so 2 pains won't make 2 pleasures. It seems to me that the idea behind it is to lose the attachment to both pleasure and pain, so that no karma is accumulated.

And, I think the key behind Robert's comment is awareness- the more 'spiritually advanced' you are the more aware you are of what the effect of your choices are, and the more you can control this effect. Awareness of this connection is what makes the difference, and the ability to choose.

Bye, CF.

CFTraveler

21st December 2010, 06:31 PM

got to agree with ya CFT Well, you don't have to, it's just comments.

but think of this their is billions of us and as you know we get help from above Spirit World, i dont know yet but im learning how do they know who gets to take the spiritual path ? I do not understand this question- how does who know who gets to take the spiritual path? Please elaborate, it may be the way the question is constructed, but I don't get what you mean by it.

then problems would not have existed Problems have never existed for spirit, only for ego.

i think even if we are spititually advanced in one life we dont get to live it in the next or even another I don't know if we even get to reincarnate, but we may come here for a specific reason. Or not.

but may happen in another? If parallel multidimensionality is a fact, then everything is happening at the same time, and it's all adjusting itself. But our material self only perceives part of it, thus the idea of sequential lives and afterlife/betweenlife states.

i know they see them selves as all equal to each other with in reason i think their is age differences but i know (taught by above) the true basis of the meaning of life is to live for each other Because in essence, we are each other. We just don't perceive it like that from here. But from 'up' there, well, maybe.

Beekeeper

22nd December 2010, 07:37 AM

And Beekeeper, is Dr. Weiss the guy who wrote a book about a woman who was coming to him for therapy, and she started remembering past lives where she was constantly intertwined with the same man, and that he was also seeking therapy with the same doctor? Then they met on an airplane, got married and had a kid who loves butterflies? Or is that a different book/author? That book gave me hope in reincarnation existing!

Yeah, I think it is but I wrote the wrong title and I meant "One Soul, Many Bodies" because it makes the point that enjoying each life is part of what you're supposed to do and illustrates karma in a more lived, less theoretical way. It also shows how good choices end particular, less enjoyable karmic patterns. A "good choice" isn't at all about embracing suffering but about doing what is for the greatest good. This generally entails a response that is both loving and authentic.

Wallbridge

24th December 2010, 04:53 PM

CF - That sounds right; awareness lights a new path. Thansk for that!

I don't think I have a problem with being attached to broad concepts like compassion or freedom, or avoidance of things like murder or marriage. If that brings karmic debt to be attached (or completely opposed) to certain things, I'm ok with that. My goal right now isn't to enter heaven, or lose myself to Nirvana, or to become one with Source. I want to finish what I started this life, and avoid the only two things that can permanently ruin or fade my life and the lives around me: dishonor, and marriage.

The only thing that bothers me is if karma will keep throwing me into situations where I get married life after life until I learn something I don't know that I'm supposed to be learning. That's the reason I keep asking for trials and tough times (though now I'll ask for lessons), because I want to finish the major spiritual training this life so I can free up the next ones for service, experience and fun.

I spent long enough, when I was younger, ignoring others' good advice on how to stop being depressed. I was content to wallow in my own laziness and self-pity, despite people telling me clear paths to get out of that bad situation. But now, if there's an unclean issue lying deep in my soul, I want me and my HS to work together to root out the problem and fix it ASAP. I'm through with being a scrub. :D

At the very least, if I can't get to the astral realm again and ask in person about how to set up an excellent next life, I can verbally ask to be tested again and again until I'm ready to take the next life with gusto.

Bee - That's a good lesson to learn. I think I've proved both my loving nature and my authenticity by choosing to marry my wife and care for her and my son, rather than running away like my father, or being abusive and neglectful like my mother. This, despite the fact that I had to sacrifice and give up everything that made me happy in the process. Though I am unhappy with the way my life turned out, I love my family deeply.

That said, though, I really don't want to come up on this situation again... and if that is interpreted as fear by the other side (and as a fear I/my HS wants to shed ourselves of), then again, I'd love to get the lesson learned this life to leave my future incarnations (future mes) free to pursue my unfinished goals.

CFTraveler

24th December 2010, 05:23 PM

A couple of comments on Wallbridge's post:
One, how old are you? You are never too old to have a satisfying life, you have the right to change whatever you want about yourself. That is the benefit of being a cocreator of your experience. So don't give up on your life and consider it 'wasted'- experience is never wasted. If there is one thing that I agree with just about everybody (and I don't agree on much when it comes to life, you will find) is that we're here to experience- everything else is debatable.
Another thing is that (at least according to the Buddha, and I agree with him on this point) attachment is not the problem- the idea is not to lose attachment to things or people or ideas- the idea of liberation is to understand where the attachment comes from, and know that you don't need it. This is liberating in itself.
I see an underlying theme in your posts- the theme of 'uncleanliness'. I don't know where this comes from, but please apply the idea of losing attachment to this- you don't have to lose attachment to life, but I would explore the question of how this idea came about and why you are attached to it.
I wish you peace, and I hope that you can reconcile the parts that you consider 'uncacceptable' in your life now, before you go on to the next, because it'll make for a better next life, if you believe in it. If you don't, it'll make for a better 'right now' life.
Remember this though: You have the Divine Right to change your mind about anything in your life, right now, and you don't have to wait.

Korpo

24th December 2010, 09:15 PM

I agree with CF.

Spiritual growth is not an all-or-nothing proposition. To my understanding it is also easier to let life show you what needs improvement and changing in your way of relating to things. It will be a gradual process, an unfolding of the truth - if you let it.

Cheers,
Oliver

Wallbridge

26th December 2010, 04:36 AM

Merry Christmas, everyone! And thanks for your continued sharing with me.

I absolutely agree, ether. Even though I feel like raging at my situation, or being depressed about it, I force myself to be happy about the way my life turned out. I try to see the good side of things, and look ever forward to the day I can finally follow my dream again. Luckily, I don't have to die for that to happen; when my kids have moved out and are going to college, I can resume traveling the world again. Next life is the life where I can have the experience of being a young, wide-eyed, honorable youth abroad.

CF, I'm 28, and I'm totally on board with you. I also believe the meaning of life is to experience and grow. Thanks also for clarifying Buddha's message; I try not to "need" as much as possible in this world to keep myself free. Only honor and freedom matter to me, but unfortunately, I had to sacrifice the latter to the former in service of my family. I didn't realize that these two concepts were all that mattered to me until after I got married.

It was hyperbolic of me to say this is a wasted life, because even if I don't feel challenged or engaged by it, it still presents me the knowledge that I don't ever want to get married or have kids again, which will hopefully serve me well in future incarnations.

As for uncleanliness, this is something that I am focused on at all times. If I didn't constantly check myself for how I were acting with other people, I would default to the apathetic, rude, selfish, demanding and lazy person that I was until I "awakened" this life. I don't know if it was poor parenting, a genetic issue, or karmic issues raising themselves to the top, but there is a darkness within me that wants to hurt people, to take everything and give nothing back, and sit around feeling both entitled and depressed. For the sake of those around me, (and partially for selfish reasons, to avoid shame), I do my very best to remain internally clean and externally moral.

I have taken your advice very close to heart. I try to accept my situation mentally, even though I can't change things physically. At the very least, I only have another 20 or so years until my kids are old enough to go to college, and I can resume living my life. Until then, I'm trying to look on the bright side.

The only thing I'm confused about is how I should think about things to achieve the best result. If I dwell on the negatives of child-rearing and marriage, I might be compelled to return to the physical realm next life to get married and raise more kids, until I no longer feel attached to the unhappiness it breeds within me.

However, if I try to love marriage and child-rearing at all times, I might be compelled to return to the physical realm for another life of the same, because that's what I'm attuned to.

How can I desire not to get married or have kids again, without being compelled into the same position life after life? For me, I try to skirt the line and remember why marriage and child-rearing are bad for my life, but not to let it get me down. I hope the middle ground leads me to my next life, where I'm perpetually single and free to follow my dreams.

And Korpo, do you think it would be better to stop asking for lessons, and just let things happen naturally? I trust the other side to show me the path either way, but if not asking for lessons will be better for my overall spiritual health, I'm all for it.

Thanks!

Korpo

26th December 2010, 11:31 AM

Hello, Wallbridge.

Lessons will keep coming, but giving consent might help set the shape of those lessons. It might also give you a feeling of participating consciously, which will be very helpful in dealing with lessons, be them joyful or challenging ones. So, giving consent might change the way in which you learn your lessons, you might get involved in your dreams, your intuition might point to solutions and so on.

You could start to see each experience you have as contributing something to your overall self. It all depends on your reaction to it. Make some room for things that you enjoy for yourself, to recharge. Then deal with everything that comes your way for a while. Then relax, recharge. Keep a balance. It gets easier after a while.

Believe it or not, that would be learning to fulfill part of the challenge of living. Doing service for others and doing service to yourself are both required. This will help not feeling like you're sacrificing your life for others, but also not like your behaviour is only "self-serving."

You can ask your dreams for help if you want to keep this part in check:

[T]here is a darkness within me that wants to hurt people, to take everything and give nothing back, and sit around feeling both entitled and depressed.

Everyone has this part, but it's part of emotional hygiene to maintain it. Over time it will release. Dreams can help in this regard. Just pick one thing you want to release, and ask specifically for a dream for releasing it. It's part of the path to inner peace to learn to regulate and take care of this aspect of yourself.

You can also do this: Lay down, close your eyes, relax. Imagine a platform in front of yourself. Say inwardly "Everything I do now is just for inward release. It will bring no harm, just release." Then think of something you want to release - even a person who upsets you. Give it a picture. If you put a person there, you really put the problematic energies there that keep unhelpful ways of relating with that person alive. Now destroy it. And remember - this is just happening inside your energy field - it's for cleaning out problematic energies. And it will help dealing with that part, because that part will be the one inspiring the images.

Cheers,
Oliver

Tutor

26th December 2010, 04:58 PM

hiya Wallbridge,

like ether said, to be aware of negative thoughts is a huge step ahead, placing one in the driver seat of responce to negatives outlying their chosen path or course. imagine, if you will, if these thoughts instead of being of your awareness, just rose up and you reacted to them without question. this is what some folks do, they react with little or no question to the arising thought, as if their personal spontaneous arising will is justification enough, regardless of shared laws discouraging overt negative reactions.

given the mission to carry a volatile substance, this mission is given to one whom having a sense of responsibility is going to carry the substance without setting off the volatile nature of the substance. certainly fear would overwhelm one in the prospect, yet that fear should remain mindful for caution's respected sake, and should not overcome the ability to respond accordingly.

it is like being given the capacity to defuse negativity within one's self, negativity that would otherwise have to be reacted upon by another whom is yet unable to defuse such. all this running about as if the sky is falling doesnt change the fact that within one is the given mission to respond accordingly, given simply because the ability to respond is without a doubt in place.

you see, being a spiritual 'warrior' is not about pointed outlying blame, pomposity and holier than thou-ness, it is about doing 'within' one's being that which without being's doing within is left to reactive destructive outcomings. it is about peace, and peacemaking, keeping what should be kept from it's otherwise volatile nature. most imagine that being spiritual is going to be like a vacation from human woes, a get out of jail free card that allows them to abundantly monopolize upon the world's best offerings. hell, even i imagined that at one time, only to awaken from such a pipe dream to my own sense of hellish volatility. oh, it is never easy, always a challenge, always waiting for that one second of forgetfulness to remind one to wake back up from the reformulating pipe dream. but like any process, challenge delivers ease, comfort within the discomfort, natures reaching resolve, instead of conflicting.

like Korpo suggests, the life before any one is sufficient as holding the day's challenge to grow. but each has to accept whatever challenge they are able to accept, for shrugging it off to blame of subjective fear, merely throws it back out into play, wherein it will most likely be played out as opposed to having been defused through the objective mission assigned to a one whom possesses a healthy responce mechanism.

it is no different than our outlying crisis, hard working folks pointedly blaming folks that seem to have no motivation to work in these uncertain times, therefore these get the blame for the working man's woes, his tax bucks have to support these. well, through that pointed blame is the reactivity given out to add injury to insult, from blames thoughted outlying insult to internal injury.

it is like a parable of a woeful man, praying to god to lift his heavy cross off and give him a lighter smaller one. so god wisps him up, takes him to a warehouse filled with seemingly infinite crosses of all different sizes, all of them around a Cross so ginormous that it dwarfs the overall scene of many disimilular crosses. so the guy timelessly sorts throught the given choices, looking through all of the crosses, scoping out the smallest one that he can possibly find. waalaa, he finally finds a cross, the tiniest cross in the whole of all the choices. he takes it to god, saying this is the one for me. god turns it over, reads the inscription on the back of it, shows it to the guy, the guy reads it, and what do ya know, it has the guys name on it. the guy asks god, why is my name on this smallest of crosses? god answers, why this is the cross you had before, the one which you begged for me to exchange because it was too heavy.

my two cents,

tim

Wallbridge

27th December 2010, 01:27 PM

Thanks again for the advice on my primal self whispering at me to be selfish. It hasn't been an issue for several years, mostly because I keep focused on my goal of honor at all times, which is why my thoughts and posts are always focused on cleanliness and integrity. The alternative is to accept darkness back into my life, but more unacceptably, into the lives of others.

I'm more concerned with wrenching control of my destiny back, and making sure I never give it up again in the future. To that end, I will skirt the line of remembering and reminding myself why marriage is a terrible idea, but still remaining positive about my life in general. And I'll keep trying to astral project over the next two decades to get official answers on how to conduct myself, in order to never be in this situation again... while I remain focused on the prize of limitless freedom ahead.

Antares

16th February 2021, 06:53 AM

Karma is the result of a process, not a mathematical equation in which the result is zero- so 2 pains won't make 2 pleasures.
I think there is a mathematical equation involved in the karmic burdens, but yes, not in that sense as CFTraveler indicated. Rather, on the higher level: where lack of understanding finally meets an adequate realization. In this sense, each thought (or thoughts thread) awaits until realized - both metaphorically and literally. So that the final sum is zero.

The problem here refers to the time concept. It is linear thinking that considers a number of "pains" or even "punishments" as put in certain scenarios in life time(s) which 'need' to be opposed by a number of "rewards" or something.

If you remove the time concept and the underlying linear events, there are no events left, only a stream of a... process of the same thread. So: one thread unerealized is released by the thread finally realized. So in the end, we are not talking of a number of numbers (events), but about a simple equation: you may refer to it as E = mc2* :)

* metaphorically: your energy (left side of the equation, or unrealized energy) is opposed to the heavy mass multiplied by squared speed of light - mass is something that bounds your freedom and awaits for realization. Here's the time secret behind so called 'karma' and 'karmic beliefs'. The heaviness (and the related karmic-driven events in your life) simply disappear when the related thoughts-thread is realized.

Long story short: free will - you can choose whatever you want any time you want. This is called realization (freeing from boundaries). (you do not do that because you are not free - yet; hence so-called karmic events, or rather your perception of those).

olyris

19th February 2021, 05:52 AM

Yes, e = mc^2 is the formula(tion) for true freedom.

Meanwhile, true freedom once beyond karma, clears karma, by being conscious of its energetic onus - e.

Chrysalis

19th February 2021, 06:01 PM

I believe we get a say, from everything that I've read.

Antares

15th February 2022, 06:27 PM

There are typically assumptions that "karma" is something really existing, not a concept - while I think it's the opposite: there is no karma as such. No one "suffers", or in other way is affected, because of some karma.

However, I found a case in the Adrian Dvir's "X3" book on his paranormal experiences and meetings with extraterrestials, which is going to interest you. This was a treatment (healing "past incarnations") of a man with lots of psychological problems, previously tortured during the WW2, who was under the hypnosis - and this case was then generalized that it was not just a single exception, but is actually typical. This confirms many ancient believes (that many people are going to have no consciousness after their death) - and at the same time contradicts so commonly believed many NDE / after-life experiences. I cannot recall any after-life case with no consciousness that I have read about so far - all were like "death is not bad, I feel free without a physical body and do not want to come back" - which implies having consciousness...

Well, then look at this - I made a summary from the mentioned book concerning that man:

- his ethereal bodies (plural in the book) were, just like his physical body, devastated and NOT recovered (so called "spiritual beings", as mentioned in the book, do NOT recover ethereal bodies)
- he was unconscious after the death
- as such, he was NOT able to make any choice after the death
- he did not choose his present parents as his family (they were "chosen" for him, without his will involved)
- he was moved to the "next body" immediately, i.e. without a recovery and - as mentioned - with no consciousness after the death in the past life