Science Cannot Fully Describe Reality

[ButterflyWoman]

The link to this article was in Robert's blog, but in case you didn't see it:


What is reality? French physicist Bernard d'Espagnat, 87, has spent a lifetime grappling with this question. Over the years, he has developed the idea that the reality revealed by science offers only a "veiled" view of an underlying reality that science cannot access, and that the scientific view must take its place alongside the reality revealed by art, spirituality, and other forms of human inquiry.

Read more: http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/co ... 316/1?etoc (http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2009/316/1?etoc)

[megraelyn]

I suppose that would make sense and always be the case if the underlying reality were perfect oneness and spirit. Measurement implies separation and the need for it implies lack. Plus science would be meaningless in a state of complete knowledge. His next question should have been, "how do I experience/become fully aware of the underlying reality?" I want to meet the person with the answer to that!

[Tutor]

Reality cannot fully describe science

[megraelyn]

That's duality. Which also means only one of the two can actually BE Real.

[Ouroboros]

Fortunately for us, reality isn't real!

:P

[megraelyn]

Very true. I just wish I knew how to actually experience that more!!

[Ouroboros]

Me and you both! Well, actually...I know HOW to (meditation)...it's just a matter of devoting the appropriate time to the processes. Something I haven't been very good about.

[ButterflyWoman]

Very true. I just wish I knew how to actually experience that more!!
What the unreality of so-called reality? My advice would be to intend to experience it, understand it, etc. Intend it sincerely, and make sure you acknowledge that you may have beliefs, ideas, habits, etc., which make it difficult, and that you're willing for those to be broken down or dissolved. Then submit to the process, whatever that ends up being.

For me, the first real experience of it was the sensation that I was in a dream, exactly like when you have a lucid dream. Except I was awake at the time.

I will tell you it's a weird ride sometimes. Very Alice in Wonderland at times. I've had a lot of bizarre existential crises that made me quite disoriented (not so much that I couldn't function), strange fluctuations in reality, reality shifts, and so on. It takes some getting used to. Eventually, though, you get your "sea legs" so to speak. ;)

Sincere intention plus surrender to the process. That always works for me.

[Tutor]

CaterpillarWoman,

agreed, ride that reality till the wheels fall off..integrate.

Duality in the sense of two is the illusion, however both seeming sides of the coin are very real towards an integral pov, that pov being the third component of wholeness.

kinda like the number 132, where 1 is our 'real' sight, 2 is our second sight, and 3 is that insight which beholds 1 and 2 from 3, such that 1 and 2 know what the other is doing.

if one is constrained to either 1 or 2, or leaps back and forth without rhyme or reason, then duality reigns over them. if one is one in 3, then one reigns over, as in dominion over.

dominion is not mastership, it is rather the skillset of one letting it (1&2) be 'as it is'. no need for virtue caused by rooted vice, no want for vice caused by an ascetic bent toward vice.

the human is ever in both complimenting of oneness, yet neither contigent is too rule or embattle against the other. perhaps, the deeper roots of utilizing 'the art of war' have been lost to history's strategists having only taken notice in a superficial external use alone, they forgetting the 'of' wherein Peace rests in Oneness.

as arjuna, all things need be considered from the center where the seeming two line up for what seems as empending battle. So many clamoring voices awaiting the Voice of Oneness to take the reins. all those voices heard through and within one...the beleaguered YOU.

T

[megraelyn]

CaterpillarWoman:

That's pretty much the perfect thing for me to hear...thanks. When you talk about sincere intention, is that just the unhindered desire to experience Reality as it is or is there something more to it for you?

I had a similar experience once, it was like I was experiencing eternity and oneness and it was awesome, but I have not been able to get back. As a 25 year old (with ADD) I understand that a lot of my problem is being able to calm the hell down and "submit to the process", but for some reason I still have a difficult time actually doing that. Sometimes I feel like fear of the process prevents me from being completely open to it, but when I ask myself what I'm so afraid of, I draw a blank.

I'm actively working on breaking down the barriers you spoke of, but I'm pretty stuck at not being fearful of the Alice in Wonderland-ness of it all. I was raised Mormon and then went born again Christian until a few years ago, so I think there is a very childish voice in me that keeps getting scared of "evil" (although I can acknowledge that ultimately it is my own creation-just don't remember that in the moment) and of parting with the idea of a body during certain experiences, as though I'm doing something "sinful" (although in my "normal" waking life, I feel as though sin doesn't really exist in the way I thought it did before). Any ideas on how to let that go?

Thanks a lot for your help and advice! Much appreciated!

:)

[ButterflyWoman]

When you talk about sincere intention, is that just the unhindered desire to experience Reality as it is or is there something more to it for you?
Just intention in general. I intend all sorts of things. An intention can be thought of as a sort of turn signal, broadcasting your intention to change lanes or turn. You turn it on and notify the Universe that this is what you intend, and then wait for the opportunity to do so. :)


Sometimes I feel like fear of the process prevents me from being completely open to it, but when I ask myself what I'm so afraid of, I draw a blank.
When I started this crazy transformation awakening thing, I couldn't have articulated anything about it. All I knew was a heartfelt desire for my life and my "self" to be "fixed".

A lot of times, though, the process will continue with or without your cooperation. Once things are set in motion, build momentum, they tend to keep going. The surrender is just to make it easier. ;)


I was raised Mormon and then went born again Christian until a few years ago, so I think there is a very childish voice in me that keeps getting scared of "evil"
I can understand that. I recommend reading the Bible. I don't mean read what people have told you is there, I mean really READ it (particularly the New Testament). Seriously and truly read what Jesus was saying, without all the ecclesiastical "add on dogma" that religion throws in. Reading the Bible was what utterly convinced me that organised religion was pretty much missing the point in all cases.


parting with the idea of a body during certain experiences, as though I'm doing something "sinful"
Paul "went" away, out of his body. So did a lot of perfectly well respected Christian saints and mystics through the centuries. Just saying. ;)


I feel as though sin doesn't really exist in the way I thought it did before
Julian of Norwich, the Medieval Christian mystic, said the same thing. She was given a series of visions which were quite powerful and which took her years to decipher in full. In one of them, she was shown the whole of creation and she noticed there was no "sin", essentially, that it's a delusion. She said that when people "love sin" they're putting their love in the wrong place, because sin isn't real. I was very deeply struck by that, because I've seen the same thing. "Missing the mark" is basically putting your energy and attention, and worse, faith, into something illusionary.

A lot of people who have a Christian background end up totally throwing that away, and I can understand that, but I always knew that there was a baby in the bathwater, and I set out to find it. Then I got rid of the bathwater and the tub and the illusion of babies and everything else... :P

[Ouroboros]

As a 25 year old (with ADD) I understand that a lot of my problem is being able to calm the hell down and "submit to the process", but for some reason I still have a difficult time actually doing that.


Wow, I can relate. I am both 25 years old AND suffer from ADD. :P

I was heavily indoctrinated into born-again Christianity growing up. Every time I think I've overcome the programming, a new block presents itself that I can trace back to indoctrination. It's hard to get rid of the programming, but I'm making pretty good progress. I'm finding CaterpillarWoman's advice quite useful in that setting the intent can do A LOT to push the momentum of change forward.

[RyanParis]

Well, of course not. Science by definition is the observation and experimentation of the physical world. If souls, for example, exist, science wouldn't necessarily be able to observe them or explain them.

Go to your doctor for instance and ask about souls. He may believe it but there's no way he could put a soul under a microscope and look at it, no more than you could.

[ButterflyWoman]

I'm finding CaterpillarWomans's advice quite useful in that setting the intent can do A LOT to push the momentum of change forward.
Glad to hear it helps. :)

[Tutor]

reality is a singular expression, as well as is a co-expression. if it isn't real, then please feel free to stop posting on the internet, for why would anyone continue to do something within the confines of what isnt real?

there is a difference between mindless banter denying its own existence and mindful presence owning reality that everything within it is checked and balanced.

the latter would write a check that does not bounce like rubber, thus not landing the author in further ruin of reputation.

this idea that right here is not real, that there is a heaven that arrives and/or mother ship that takes us to the real, is what perpetuates the trashing of right here right now.

its kinda like spoiled kids who refuse to clean their rooms, they all together in one big house.

this is why 'reality' cannot fully describe science, because reality wont even clean its own rooms up first and foremost.

this earth and us in, on and of it, is where we make our room/s to be. folks who keep up this childish refusal of reality get grounded and/or spanked by the very reality denied as being real.

nothing wrong with being childlike however, we cant help but be childlike. but, we can certainly commit to disciplining ourselves, revealing an expression beyond the norm of mindless.

[Alaskans]

Sorry about the length. I dont like reading long posts either.

I definately disagree with the title of this thread. I think that one day, in perhaps 300 years, science will have a full enough understanding to be able to offer salvation to the general population. Unfortunately at this time there are some major snags in science holding it back. 'Psychic abilities' are still considered superstition by much of the science community (rediculous! :lol: ). The hard evidence of ghosts and aliens is dismissed as circumstantial. These are things that are at work in every day life and should have been investigated long ago. Science has long been a religion, and that is why obvious "paranormal" stuff is not investigated and explained with scientific theory; it is not part of the 'orthadox religion of science'. I beleive that one day that will all change. The recent acceptance and popularity of quantum theory has been a huge leap in the right direction.


reality is a singular expression, as well as is a co-expression. if it isn't real, then please feel free to stop posting on the internet, for why would anyone continue to do something within the confines of what isnt real?
Exactly. In expressing no reality of our own we are shown the reality of the general population - the reason imagined creatures rarely show themselves nowdays.


Fortunately for us, reality isn't real!
I understand this, I use it myself. It is a belief used as a tool to understand other levels of reality, but the belief itself is not true. We use it to deny the outermost layer of what we see in order to see the layers beneith it.


Go to your doctor for instance and ask about souls. He may believe it but there's no way he could put a soul under a microscope and look at it, no more than you could.
The human energy feild can be detected, measured, and demonstrated by current scientific instraments. So that is not actually true. Infact, i wouldnt be suprised if it were possible to see the particles of the soul under a microscope under the right conditions.
It is no big contreversy to point out that the energy of particles and stars is well accepted in science, and yet the idea that humans have an energy field of thier own is frowned apon. Despite that we are the same stuff as the universe. The point of the LargeHadronColliderhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider#Cost is to find the existence of other dimensions, unofficially to find the 'soul' of matter. Funny, they let the few true charlatains and superstitions, and the fighting with religion cloud thier logic so much that everyday, obvious things have been labeled as superstitious and unworthy of scientific investigation. Instead of investigating the human soul, they spend 9 billion building a machine in the hope that they might get the chance to "see" the soul of matter, since humans are off limits to investigation. (actually, 'not see' is more acurate) I'm not saying this to say that science cannot explain reality, but to show that it can, and that there are only a few social mental devices (created as a result of the intent to remove untruth) that now deny the exploration of some aspects of truth. Once these few mentalities are removed, science will be able to logically explain and explore God, ascention, the soul, E.T.s, etc. Science has been accelerating at an alarming pace lately because scientists are thinking less like religious fanatics, and more like someone who just wishes to see the truth without bias. Other civilizations have developed to that level of science, and humans will as well. "Religion without science is blind. Science without religion is lame." - Einstien
Religion is just another level of scientific theory waiting to be explored, science is the details of religion. Like I say 'there isnt anything more paranormal than science'

[ButterflyWoman]

I definately disagree with the title of this thread.
It was just the title of the article on the end of the link. ;)

Did you read the article? It's pretty interesting. That's why I originally posted the link.

[Alaskans]

Wasnt working, but used jedi power (lightsaber through screen). Cant say I agree with Dr Bernard at my current understanding of the situation. I think he is jumping to conclusions on something not understood well enough to create a conclusion on (I have great experience there!). Also, like I so raved about earlier, basic science isnt even complete, large sections are unexplored, that could effect our ability to understand later science. For instance, because the minds ability to effect matter and its laws has never been studied, theyre unable to explain why particles act like waves when nobody is watching, then act like particles when someone does. It's caused by the way we naturally percieve our surroundings, under the right mindstate and intent you can see particles in thier wave form (could be proven/disproven if done during the 'shoot particles at paper test').
According to my brain-poking, the laws of physics gets less and less confining the smaller the particles. Quantum particles are the tip of the iceberg. Eventually, at the smallest, there are no laws of physics, everything is a matter of mind. If you were at that level and thought 'universe' then a snowball effect would accur that would create a universe for you, planets and all (thats a very extreme example).
I beleive the laws of physics can be altered by changing them at quantum or smaller level, that in turn can effect the larger particles they occupy, and so on.
Thats why 'God works in mysterious ways'. The event that happened at the perfect time in the perfect way looks totally natural, it had to be a coincidence.. but its not, a mind set it in motion at a deep level, it snowballed through the physics, that in turn made it appear to be a natural coincidence when it apeared at the physical layer. In reality we are ourselves elements of the universe, and we act like elements, all our actions and desires are the motions of particles. We think we are smarter than a rock, but we are the same as the rock, except that we have a brain and sensors, wich ironicly severly limits our ability to sense and percieve. I like watching astrological programs because I see the whole picture, I get to see the physical bodies of great beings and gods.
I better stop, could go on and on.

[Tutor]

reality is a singular expression, as well as is a co-expression. if it isn't real, then please feel free to stop posting on the internet, for why would anyone continue to do something within the confines of what isnt real?

Exactly. In expressing no reality of our own we are shown the reality of the general population - the reason imagined creatures rarely show themselves nowdays.

bravo!

and in one disallowing one's true expression, even as they may 'think' that they are, the co-reality determines outcome for that one and all.

as far as "imagined creatures rarely showing themselves nowadays", it is not so rare, and on the increase, that 'imagined creatures' are being seen within the individual imagination, and individuals finding commonality of imagined creatures within are increasingly grouping together in search of co-resolve.

it is a kind of flip in the collective consciousness. there was a day when the collective instinctual fears would combine to give external formation to an 'imagined creature', such as a dragon which is a cohesive combination of mankind's instinctive fears of nature seeming set against them.

through time mankind has for the most part collectively subdued this seeming external nature, and thereby forced 'imaginary creatures deep within the shared consciousness, as well as each individual consciousness.

having dwelled deeply for ages, the age has arrived wherein individual imaginations bubble up these nature symbolic creatures, as if a pond seasonally rolling over, and in kind groups form around their shared like individual stories of creatures within, that by the imagination assault each within.

the 'kingdom' would have us each to discover it within, as opposed to that which kicked off 'kingdom' where imagination collectivelively brought out the worst to be seen in the external by all.

yet, it is beyond that, that mankind, being each in mankind, may come to the truth that within each is an individual source of power (imagination>thought) that gives itself either consciously or unconsciously to a collective consciousness dimensionally productive of our co-world.

everyone dreamed and collectively saw the nightmare as external world, and now each dreams their nightmare and feels alone in it, and are thus driven to find others who share the same dream/s within.

the keyword is 'dream',and what is 'dream' relative to what is 'reality', these both individually personal and collectively that power productive of 'world'.

reminds me of a scifi movie that was way before its time, cant remember the name of it, about a planet out there somewhere with incomprhensible technology under its surface, but no sign of the living entitys which brought it to be. anywho, the movie was about the power of deep emotions and imagination, i think they called it "Id" in the movie.

one wonders, that after a time of grouping in shared personal dreams, will this then flip our co-perception again, where that the 'imagined creatures" once again appear to all in the external.

the dragons return....strory at 11...

of course, we merely make conjecture here, well i do, cuz i aint really got a clue.

for lack of an expression we takingly give impression, and in that we beg for pardon.

salvation given by science, unlikely. why? because science is part and parcel to the field of consciousness which within dreams dimensionally materialize. same

human doesnt need an expression or impression to be. everything is because mankind is. it is us and we are it. human's need only re-member themselves at that origin, an origin which is not part and/or parcel, for from this origin all else is membered from and to.

what is human/s is whole, having no parts or parcels, except in it's own freewill to imagine it so to be. that is what is conscious being dimensionally as/in consciousness.

thus, freewill would seem to be an individually owned byproduct, however, as mankind and/or humanity, we together realize that freewill is first a byproduct of cohesiveness of kind in its oneness.

ergo, we endure a larger world wherein the individual loses itself to a thought to be identity caught up in the stream of current themes that are collectively accepted in temporary co-agreement.

T

[Ouroboros]

Fortunately for us, reality isn't real!
I understand this, I use it myself. It is a belief used as a tool to understand other levels of reality, but the belief itself is not true. We use it to deny the outermost layer of what we see in order to see the layers beneith it.


Then in what way are we in disagreement? I find it odd the reaction that statement received, especially from Tutor. Humor can be hard to express in all its subtleties within the narrow confines of text.


reality is a singular expression, as well as is a co-expression. if it isn't real, then please feel free to stop posting on the internet, for why would anyone continue to do something within the confines of what isnt real?

there is a difference between mindless banter denying its own existence and mindful presence owning reality that everything within it is checked and balanced.

the latter would write a check that does not bounce like rubber, thus not landing the author in further ruin of reputation.

this idea that right here is not real, that there is a heaven that arrives and/or mother ship that takes us to the real, is what perpetuates the trashing of right here right now.

its kinda like spoiled kids who refuse to clean their rooms, they all together in one big house.

this is why 'reality' cannot fully describe science, because reality wont even clean its own rooms up first and foremost.

this earth and us in, on and of it, is where we make our room/s to be. folks who keep up this childish refusal of reality get grounded and/or spanked by the very reality denied as being real.

nothing wrong with being childlike however, we cant help but be childlike. but, we can certainly commit to disciplining ourselves, revealing an expression beyond the norm of mindless.

I don't remember advocating irresponsibility... :P You sure you're not just projecting that onto my statement?

[Tutor]

I don't remember advocating irresponsibility... :P You sure you're not just projecting that onto my statement?

Ourosboros,

I don't remember saying that you advocated anything. I merely reply "in addition to" what has been stated by all thus far.

my sort of feel for the overall offerings. I did not intend to point out any one or all of whom has offered.

truth is all of us often do not know we are, or that we have been, irresponsible. it is hard to see it in the moment, and we most often react to the action given, mostly when we are in relative surrounding dealing with relative folks.

certainly no one advocates irresponsibility, for if anyone could look ahead of themself and see the consequence/s they'd surely be responding accordingly.

but, since you read yourself as the appointed target, perhaps there is something within yourself that crys foul. I imagine that the reflex of offense is sign that within is something surrounded in a defense.

i find that to be true within myself, so i look within for my own cause of dysfunctional reflexive jerks.

when i write this diatribe, or diatripe, i write from seeing myself, my conditioning and behaviors therefrom. Lord knows i gets me ole self in some scrapes sometimes, especially with the misses.

those most familiar to us, being the ones we are most comfortably with, are the real challenges. and its always the little things that get ya....

I, like you, land in a thread, read it, cogitate on it, and add from myself that which is me. That folks wish to read anything that you or I offer as an ultimated judgement has to do with them as the reader, and not the writer.

folks often read in a tone that would hear it just so. some come to debate, others come to act as if they've nothing to offer at all; and some few come to help build toward the topics co-resolve.

I often find in here, this forum, with all due respect to this AD Forum and it's Author by the way; that there is a king of the hill modality, and anything constructive added is often ignored, or challenged as it has in error been read as challenging, and regretfully often the thread's potential direction and/or scope is completely abandoned in hopes that the constructive poster and offering are put in their place, and sometimes an offering radically read is radically uprooted and replanted.

but alas, few are up to any challenge, thinking to take the easier route where brawn of intellect would claim top of the heap.

again Ourosboros, i am not speaking of you personally or any member in particular. only the reader reading proves them self as having anything to do with what is said by any other in this forum or any forum.

it's kinda like fishing, ya know, can't see the fish, don't know where the fish are gathered up, but in your cluenessness ya cast out the alluring tidbit into the unseen abyss.

sometimes ya hook what seems as if the biggest darn fish in the water, the line tugs and dives as if a whale has just grabbed on to a tiny bit of hope; you reel it in and it is barely bigger than a minnow.

sometime you hook what seems as the tiniest darn fish in the water, the line stays slack as if no care at the hook is felt. ya reel in the slack and my goodness it's the biggest darn fish ya ever did see, and with a great tug of your having been fooled the line snaps.

rarely though, is that time when you've put your best arbogast lure on, ya throw it out, and just before it hits the water a monster fish comes beaming out of the broken surface, lure in mouth, ya wait in slow motion for the splashing monster to go below, and having reeled in the slack during heart palpitations, ya tug that line, set those treble hooks, and the fight of your life is on....

ya reel in that big fella with kid gloves, letting out when the line gets tight, waiting for the turn, reeling in the slack, back and forth making tiny incremental gains, until biggun is within netted reach. ya bring it on in, get out your needle nose pliers, gently take the hook/s loose, tell the biggun what a great fish that it is, and then release it back to it's peaceful domain.

all the above metaphorically reside in this forum and all forums where such topics are offered. and that's alright, the way that it should be, because it takes all kinds to factor within yourself wherethat you fit or do not fit.

but, if you're not into fitting or not fitting, just being your own true self, then you can be all the above when that you see the occassion's call for what is momentarily required.

but, Ourosboros, we might agree, that if the moments require one to all to routinely assume the position of the minnow, then boredom sets in despite any intent in the posting reply.

also, to have to play small, get hooked, just to break free in the moment of apparent sight, is as well boredom setting in.

truly the fisherman and the fish are the same person, for either is not without the other.

yet, forums such as this one is, what this one offers in the practice of what is originally authored as intent; does cause a certain sadness of heart and mind, when in fact the reader clearly sees the players gaming for the trophied catch as they pose for the photo that gets pinned to the bulletin board of the bait shop alongside the abyssmal waters.

therein, the sacred is by personal playing forced to be the mundane. sad indeed for those whom mundanely apply themselves to such practices.

so, what is sacred responds as it's own accord being; and what is mundane reacts to any and every action in it's personalized accord doing.

the latter is 'science' reactively thinking to study 'reality', and the former is 'reality' respondingly reciprocal to every reaction that from the first respondant action did follow.

this is why a scientist by his/her own will may with thoughts produce a certain outcome within the confinement of the laboratory, but when it is set outside the confinement that certainty proves itself as false, because what had been thoughtfully willed by one is now open to the thoughtful wills of the many.

one sees the world, and from that world backwardly follows back into them self to think on it for an opinion.

one yearns for what is not seen in the world, and from that response forwardly projects from them self what otherwise would not be seen in the world by any other.

and if others concur, it is only that they themselves also yearned for it to be seen, though they had yet to project it from themselves.

once projected and concurred, the object becomes by co-yearning in union with all whom yearn, and without any communication at all, the object will by co-projection find itself projected all over the world.

science scratches its thinking and posturing head, with that wonder as to how on earth did this one object occur in its conception in this seemingly disconnected way.

well...'reality' winks from behind the veil of ignorance.

we have a word in the hills of appalachia called 'agnorance', it defines when a person knowingly ignorant continues to cultivate that ignorance on into even greater ignorance. get it? ag as in agriculture, to farm and grow from seed to fruit.

well, ya can't get around the fact that each is known by their personal fruit.

but, who isn't ignorant, yet how few will readily admit said ignorance in their pretentious posturing as if to know. those whom posture to know cannot see beyond that posturing, they entangled in their hard held opining.

to pine is to yearn. to opine is to ignore the pining, as to forget that from pining did and does all arrive.

ok, out of breath...

T

[Ouroboros]

Ourosboros,

I don't remember saying that you advocated anything. I merely reply "in addition to" what has been stated by all thus far.

but, since you read yourself as the appointed target, perhaps there is something within yourself that crys foul. I imagine that the reflex of offense is sign that within is something surrounded in a defense.



Accurately noted. This has been the second repetition of this lesson for me. It has been my nature to react defensively to any single perceived slight or admonition, as I have for so long viewed myself as intrinsically abominable. Apologies, then, for my reaction to your offering.

I don't regret it, though. Your response has been...instructive. ;)

[ButterflyWoman]

This has been the second repetition of this lesson for me.
Expect it to keep coming up until you really, truly "get it" and it resolves in your conscious awareness. And expect other stuff to do the same. It's a well-known pattern, and it's a good sign. ;)

[Alaskans]

I know that science occupies a different frequency. The things known in science is assigned a different energy than other knowledge. I learned that when looking at the moon one night. First I looked at it as a scientist, created was an energy scientists feel, and a particular part of my brain activated (top left I think). next, I looked at the moon as a mystic, created was a more energetic energy that a mystic would feel, the part of the brain that was activated was in the front-center of the brain my guess was that it was one energy of many not within the confines of the brain.
That is one hurdle. but not an insurmountable one, hemi-sync is one way science helps create higher energies through the mind. the other hurdle is the realization that the laws of physics at deeper dimensions are effected by humans perception of them. (I cant say if surface level physics can be directly changed by the mind, but I do know they can be changed by actions in deeper levels underneith the physics, like an avalanche, or shaking a tree; small movement at the base creates large movement at the top)

[Tutor]

:wink:

[Tutor]

:wink: