particles in spirituality

[Alaskans]

I dont know if this is common knowledge, I prefere to find things out on my own :wink: You must excuse me for being scientificly inaccurate (if I am), Truth is my forte not memorizing. I see existence, "paranormal", even our actions in a very simple and non-judgemental universe. We are simply undefined energy particles, we make the complexities beyond that, and decide what particles we want. I was watching a show explaining how emotions are created as protiens in our brain. It hit me how similar the creation of those protiens were to acting in spirit (intentions, psychic and magic stuff etc). Earth emotions are particles. When we feel the effects of anger, thats a particle. Each basic emotion has a particle, and more complex ones contain multiples. Intent is emotion also in my opinion, except that righteous ones contain more microscopic particles/energy and may or may not contain a protien depending on how divine it is. The formation of an intent is the same, it is a specific cocktail of particles created by the person to represent something (wich may be why immages can be communicated telepathicly, because it is an actual formation of tiny energy particles in space.) I think everyone has experienced how thoughts become external things, coming out of our hands and face. That is the more microscopic layer of particles coming off our brain molecules in the shape of a thought. ( :lol: Makes me laugh how obvious the Truth is after all these eons of mystery and superstition...)

People seem to not understand how many layers a molecule has, how much energy is stored in one. What always perplexed me is how when things decay scientists dont ask where all the energy went. Energy can never vanish, it can only disipate or change form. So you have a person, large visible molecules on the outside, atoms, electrons, protons, nuetrons, quarks and so on. Layers and layers of increasingly smaller and less visible matter. Plus we have energy holding all the particles together and an energy aura. The particles change in size, but they stay in the same shape of the person.
The person dies, the energy holding the particles together 'mysteriously' vanishes and the largest particles go thier own ways.
Im illistrating that spirit and matter are the same thing. Dimensions are simply just different layers of particles existing in space. A person in heaven may be made of quarks (just an example, I think heaven is even smaller), if that same person were to go to earth and wanted to be visible, then his body must rearrange into the complex orbits and physics of earth molecules. If he just wanted to see earth then he could just go, but the only way someone could see him is under a very powerfull microscope.
When we die we dont die, we just loose the largest layer of particles of our body (though not neccicarily the largest portion of energy.)
Think I'll leave it at that, for now.

[CFTraveler]

I would say what you're writing is pretty close to current scientific belief, but instead of identifying endorphins as particles, I'd say they're molecules (they're not proteins, they're peptides, which is half a protein) and I'd say that it's not how big particles are (particles have very little mass, and are too small to see), but how tightly packed they are, or how they're combined.
I'd also say that scientists don't worry about where the energy goes, because physically, it's transformed into what the worms eat.
No one has figured out what holds everything together- that is the great mystery.

[Mystikal]

You must excuse me for being scientificly inaccurate (if I am), Truth is my forte not memorizing.


What always perplexed me is how when things decay scientists dont ask where all the energy went.

You're being scientifically inaccurate.

"Decay", when speaking of particle physics, refers a transformation of particles and energy that happens spontaneously. In such a reaction, typically, scientists know precisely where the energy goes. For example, one Uranium-238 atom (146 neutrons, 92 protons) decays into one Thorium-234 atom (144 neutrons, 90 protons) plus one alpha particle (2 neutrons, 2 protons). None of the energy is unaccounted for.

Scientists know very well that the energy in any reaction has to go somewhere (first law of thermodynamics). If it's not apparent where the energy in any particular reaction went, scientists are the first people who would start investigating and trying to find it. They are always asking "where all the energy went".

You're welcome to come up with all the pseudoscientific theories you like. But if you're going to dismiss the work of scientists with glib lines such as "Truth is my forte not memorizing", please at least take care to be truthful about what scientists say. Misrepresenting science only makes it seem like you don't have a very good grasp on your forte.

P.S. Scientists aren't interested in memorizing, either. They're interested in truth.

[Alaskans]

Ahh.. thank you Mystikal. It was a theory that felt beautifull to me, but obviously I missed the mark. I am quite an idiot in some areas, I dont mean to insult real scientific minded people. It is something I need to work on. Thank you for your honesty.

I am aware that they often ask where energy went, thats what the recent multi trillion dollar collider is being made for. - I meant I believe they arent accounting for all the kinds of energy.- Just trying to combine science with spirituality in my mind, because I dislike all the eons of preconceptions and superstitions built on top of anything you think of as 'paranormal' wich is obviously scientific at some level if it exists. Supernatural stuff has too many strings, mostly bad. I see that I am adding to that by speaking with a too little exercised scientific mind, but my intention was good. I think I do have a grasp on what it means to be good.
Love you

[Mystikal]

:)

I too would like to see better combinations of science and spirituality, but I'm rather disappointed with most attempts to unite the two. Too many people get involved with one side and start believing it's unimportant to really understand the other side. They only see the superficial trappings of the side they're not familiar with. Maybe they attempt to explain those trappings in terms which they are familiar with, maybe they wrap those trappings about what they do understand thinking that doing so will transform their knowledge into something greater - either way, their attempts always break down when examined by someone who knows a decent amount about the other side.

Even worse, there seems to be a fair bit of animosity between the sides, perhaps generated by those failed attempts. Smart atheists who proclaim that spirituality is a mental disease, blissful mystics who declare that understandings of the physical and of the abstract are worthless... well, most people aren't that strongly one-sided in what they feel, but they often cleave to such beliefs to some degree.

As someone who is both highly intelligent and quite spiritually-minded, I see a fair bit of what people on both sides are like... sometimes it gets really really annoying! I realized after my earlier post that I had some pent-up frustration with this, which I hadn't noticed or been able to express until now. Hopefully you don't mind me yanking your topic off so far in this direction. ;)

[journyman161]

Alaskans I started a post in here in response to your OP but then realised it was wandering a long way from your ideas. I still think it relevant to you though so it's over here (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=14064)

[Alaskans]

I understand Mystical. I have some pent up frustrations too because of the scientists who wont accept things that are already scientificly proven and measured. I didnt mean to sound like I was openly attacking science, I very much wish for science to be all encompassing.

I... actually am posting again because.. the comment about me not knowing Truth hurt me more than I thought and I couldnt let it go. If it was from someone else I dont think it would have been so bad. Truth and love is me, my God, my teacher, my master, though my earth identity isnt all there yet.. if I've been chasing a lie, then Im less than nothing. But if I am I want to know.

Maybe I'm just feeling over dramatic, I did have a wierd day.

[Mystikal]

What is Truth to you? You've said how it relates to you... but what is Truth? How does it relate to the things that scientists and others tell you? What would "chasing a lie" be like for you, what does that mean, and why do you think doing so is worthless?

I have quite a lot of thoughts related to this, but I don't want to go too far off on a tangent before I understand better what your thoughts are... plus I've been up a long time and I need to sleep. ^^;

[Alaskans]

You can go off on tangents, I would rather people did even, we can always come back to the topic.
You dont need to answer my last post, Im over it, and we are talking about two different forms of truth anyways. Its just that its my only real vulnerable spot because I cant allow my Truth to be rock solid, I always have to be willing to give up everything I beleive.
Truth to me (with a big T) is an intellegent being that encompasses the universe and it tells the highest good that can be, and it also tells the how the universe actually is. I believe our real self is Truth and we are all that one being. And theres another being Lies, and the interaction between the two creates us, identities who think we are seperate. My Truth relates to science because Truth can be translated with our minds to say how reality really is. I want science to break through to greater truth that really matter to our spirit. Science is no different from buddism, taoism, christianity, gnostistism or any others except that it is much more thorough and takes great detail in everything, the only problem is science too often puts itself in a box, and all the details bog it down. The result is a religion that, in the gigantic picture of the true state of the universe.. has covered very little and cannot save anyone. Mystics can cross dimensions, aliens explored that phenomina and now have ships that can enter other dimensions to travel accross the galaxy, nothing is out of the grasp of science. Science is widely accepted throughout the world, and believed in by even athiests, if science broke into the areas of Truth that concern immortality then all the souls of mankind will be saved. It has recently broken into some truths that are personally important, the link between the mind and the body is being realized. I rarely get exited, but I did about Quantum theory, I consider it the first real science because it is all personally relevant and will lead to truely important discoveries. If it is proven then humanity will be completely changed.

The reason why science is not combining well is because thinking in great detail about how something works makes the knowledge useless in a practical way for mystics, and not thinking in great detail about something makes the knowlege useless in a practical way to scientists. For a mystic its like trying to teach someone to walk by telling them the scientific mechanics of walking. Also, there comes a point where spiritualists have to start taking things on faith, believing things without proof.. in order to make progress, and that really turns off scientists. There is so much out there to understand that without jumping over the more 'trivial' stuff to focus just on the personally relevant truths, it would take a mystic many thousands of years to get to the end of his journey. That causes gaps in his understanding where he didnt think it was worth the time to explore, such as the whole physical dimension, he doesnt care about it, he just skipped it, otherwise he would have studied physics because it is part of the great Truth. Im not putting down science, physics is great because it is stable, clean, thorough, and predictable, but it has only explored a tiny portion of reality. You could spend 500 trillion years exploring every planet and cosmic body in the galaxy, sometimes you need to skip to the less complex, unifying areas.

All science needs is for logic to be REAL logic. That means knowing that not everything has been explored by science YET but will be. That EVERYTHING can be explained logically, and logically does not mean only by current scientific understanding. That just because there is superstition surrounding a phenomina does not mean that it is all the immagination of ignorant minds and does not exist. That everything is worth exploring even if it appears to disagree with current scientific knowledge, because if it does disagree then that means there is something to be learned, thinking otherwise is not logical, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY SCIENCE CAN PROGRESS. It is not logical in any way to say that every account of crop circles and alien contact was the result of pranksters, con artists and halucinations. Its not logic, it's blind faith in the religion of science.

What is needed for science to benifit from mystics is for the mystic to tell the scientist how he sees it at the point where science leaves off and the mystics understanding continues (or for the scientist to be part mystic himself). Then the scientist must translate, measure where possible, and formulate to make it a functional, working, ALL UNIFYING scientific theory. Einstien had 2 main things going for him that set him appart. He had TRUE logic. And he knew that EVERYTHING is connected. The universe is like a tree, with earth being at the tips of the branches, very complex, it gets more and more simple and unifying the farther you travel down the tree to the base. A good theory is very simple and combines and explains EVERYTHING observed (in the dimension being observed). It predicts things that havent even been observed yet, if anything is left out then it is wrong. Einstien was part mystic, he connected to the being Truth and translated what he felt into human thoughts (because it doesnt speak words), then scientific theory. He tried very hard to convey this to the scientists of the time, but they couldnt understand it at all.

It is true logic is what will free science, and I am very happy to see that true logic is beginning to bloom.

[Mystikal]

What's the hurry? Exploring everything in this galaxy sounds like great fun to me, even if it would take 500 trillion years. You also mentioned something about the souls of mankind being saved - saved from what? Why? Do you believe there is some sort of time limit on all this?

Also, about something from earlier, I'm curious: why do you say that memorization isn't your forte? Have you had problems with it? Been unable to memorize something as well as others wanted you to?

Lastly, and most important to me: why do you say that thinking in great detail about how something works makes the knowledge useless for mystics? Is it just a matter of limited time, or is there something more? Personally, I've always found that understanding how something works helps me greatly in any application of it. I've become rather suspicious of people who tell me that something is too hard to understand or that I shouldn't understand it - it makes me think that they don't really want me to understand whatever it is they're telling me.

I wouldn't want to work with a manager who uses a lot of buzzwords but won't explain what they mean. I'd be likely to think that she says them to create the appearance that she has a lot of knowledge, and that she doesn't really understand what it is to actually have knowledge. So why would I want to study a mystic who says a lot of mysterious things but steers people away from understanding them?

[ButterflyWoman]

Scientists aren't interested in memorizing, either. They're interested in truth.
So long as the "truth" is measurable and repeatable in a laboratory, and preferably material.

Richard Feynman pnce said, ""I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy."

He was right. ;)

[Mystikal]

Science may not be a pursuit of all truth, but I think it is a pursuit of truth nevertheless.

My main point with that was that memorization doesn't really have much to do with science. (Unless the science in question is really cargo cult science - another interesting thing Feynman talked about. ;)

[ButterflyWoman]

Science may not be a pursuit of all truth, but I think it is a pursuit of truth nevertheless.
It's pursuit of facts that can be put together to form theories and hypotheses.


My main point with that was that memorization doesn't really have much to do with science.
A lot of things have nothing to do with science. :)

For what it's worth, my husband is a scientist. He's currently working with the human genome project. Before this he was working with nanotech. I'm not anti-scientist. I just really have issues with the idea that science is about truth. It's about facts more than anything else. Very useful facts sometimes, definitely. But truth and fact aren't always the same.

Mostly I was just musing, not arguing. I do apologise if it seemed that I was. I have a lot of things to say about science as a field of human endeavor, and your post afforded me the opportunity to say one of those things. ;)

[Mystikal]

Hm. Can you give me an example of a nonfactual truth, or an untrue fact? I can't think of any, but maybe I'm using a different flavor of the words than you are.

[ButterflyWoman]

Hm. Can you give me an example of a nonfactual truth, or an untrue fact? I can't think of any, but maybe I'm using a different flavor of the words than you are.
Well, there are things that are true in your own experience, intangibles. These are your truths. They can't be measured, nor can they be proven or disproven, nor are they facts. They just are, and they exist in your own reality. Maybe in other peoples', too, or maybe not.

Some examples would be mystical experiences, ecstatic experiences, most kinds of supernatural phenomena, etc. Can't really measure them, nor reproduce them with any reliability, but that doesn't make them untrue or unreal.

Does that make sense?

[Timotheus]

:D

[CFTraveler]

As a Puerto Rican, I can vouch for the many uses for Ductape. :mrgreen:

Anyway, you're talking cell physiology. I was talking 'strong force', the force that keeps atom nucleuses together, happily.

[Alaskans]

Good questions. Its 3am but I will try to answer best I can.


What's the hurry? Exploring everything in this galaxy sounds like great fun to me, even if it would take 500 trillion years. Then thats great :D Hell, why not explore.



You also mentioned something about the souls of mankind being saved - saved from what? Why? Do you believe there is some sort of time limit on all this?
Saved from the being Lies :P Theres a time limit for some, not for any of us.



Also, about something from earlier, I'm curious: why do you say that memorization isn't your forte? Have you had problems with it? Been unable to memorize something as well as others wanted you to?
Sometimes I forget I did something seconds after the fact. It happens to many of us spiritual people. I think it has to do with multiple things. Not paying attention to the physical world, being literally out of your head (dreams and astral projections can be hard to remember), being so open minded and used to disreguarding ego (wich is partly created by stimulus recorded in the brain) that other than those used for spiritual purposes much of your neural pathways are weakened or loose. All creating someone who is very wise, adaptable, openminded and creative but not very intellegent in certain ways. I was of both, intellegent and wise. I could split atoms with my mind (figuratively), it was actually even scary to me. A mind that is both wise and intellegent is many times more powerfull than one specialized in either. However, my heart suffered badly as a result. Still, Im thinking of trying something like chemistry or engineering to balance things out again.



Lastly, and most important to me: why do you say that thinking in great detail about how something works makes the knowledge useless for mystics? Is it just a matter of limited time, or is there something more? Personally, I've always found that understanding how something works helps me greatly in any application of it.
Time is a bit of an issue, we only live so long, however, your knowledge is not erased apon death, it can eventually be recieved apon your next lifetime (hopefully!).
Knowing the proper scientific terminology doesnt help at all in practical aplication unless you are a scientist. When someone does a 'supernatural' act, the proper way is exactly that, super-natural. You dont think about sending electrical signals down particular nerve pathways to the particular muscle of your arm in order to move it. You just move your arm. (Not that 'moving your arm' spiritually cant have its particularities.) The issue is that thoughts are our translation and complication of something abstract and more simple. In the translation we may create limitations to what we can do with our minds and soul. Like someone said in the telekinesis forum awhile ago. He had a TK instructor who used to be a physicist. His instructor was really good, he could spin many targets at once without even looking at them, but he was never able to move a golf ball because he couldnt get over the idea that the golf ball had too much air friction. If you can set aside your scientific side when you are being a mystic then its no problem. Coupling science and spirituality will make you understand the universe very very fast, but when it comes to actually taking action on that knowledge you may have to put aside your scientific thinking or your mystical thinking depending on how you are using your knowledge. But dont limit yourself with such a box, It's only how it seems to me.


I've become rather suspicious of people who tell me that something is too hard to understand or that I shouldn't understand it - it makes me think that they don't really want me to understand whatever it is they're telling me.
Too hard to understand :D Nothing is impossible to understand in some way. People always say God cannot be understood, God works in in mysterious ways, its not true. Gods actions make perfect sense, its just that they dont have a good enough grasp of Truth. Some of those people were probably challenging you to figure it out.

It is better to scatter seeds in all the fields so that the farmers learn how to sow and take pride in thier accomplishment than to spend all your time growing the vegetables yourself to place the harvest in just one field.
I try to just scatter seeds, but too often I'm handing out the whole plant :roll: Scattering seeds sounded simple enough! (I'll try not to feel guilty about this post!)

That is why things are often not explained in detail, we need the sense that it was US who discovered it in order for us to truely believe it, they are just tryng to get you to find it out yourself. On top of that some things need to be kept abstract in order to work, I stopped writing in my journal because I was turning something explained perfectly without words into something very inaccurately translated when I would write my thoughts.


I wouldn't want to work with a manager who uses a lot of buzzwords but won't explain what they mean. I'd be likely to think that she says them to create the appearance that she has a lot of knowledge, and that she doesn't really understand what it is to actually have knowledge. So why would I want to study a mystic who says a lot of mysterious things but steers people away from understanding them?
When I started my spiritual life. I decided to disreguard what everyone in the world thinks about reality and how to live. I even disreguarded what I believed. My thinking was that if I emptied my mind of all influences, including my own, then Truth itself would trickle through. It will, but it is abstract, you must use true logic to turn it into thoughts. That is the doorway to all knowledge in the universe. Imagine, everything in the universe, abstract yet right there within grasp. It is actually the same way we use our 'psychic powers'.

[star]

Too hard to understand Nothing is impossible to understand in some way. People always say God cannot be understood, God works in in mysterious ways, its not true. Gods actions make perfect sense, its just that they dont have a good enough grasp of Truth. Some of those people were probably challenging you to figure it out.

It doesn't seem to me that god is omi-potent, Even archangels are too big to fully focus all there attention on one being without it bursting into flames. I think for god it would be more difficult for him to know whats going on with one of us, as it would be for one of us to constantly pay attention to - and follow a single cell. :mrgreen:

[star]

Too hard to understand Nothing is impossible to understand in some way. People always say God cannot be understood, God works in in mysterious ways, its not true. Gods actions make perfect sense, its just that they dont have a good enough grasp of Truth. Some of those people were probably challenging you to figure it out.

It doesn't seem to me that god is omi-potent, Even archangels are too big to fully focus all there attention on one being without it bursting into flames. I think for god it would be more difficult for him to know whats going on with one of us, as it would be for one of us to constantly pay attention to - and follow a single cell. :mrgreen:


When I started my spiritual life. I decided to disreguard what everyone in the world thinks about reality and how to live. I even disreguarded what I believed. My thinking was that if I emptied my mind of all influences, including my own, then Truth itself would trickle through. It will, but it is abstract, you must use true logic to turn it into thoughts. That is the doorway to all knowledge in the universe. Imagine, everything in the universe, abstract yet right there within grasp. It is actually the same way we use our 'psychic powers'.

Managing oneself is the quickest way, combined with energy building techs. The ebst way to know if its working are recieivng lots of good vibes. Random laughter is a good one too.

[ButterflyWoman]

It doesn't seem to me that god is omi-potent, Even archangels are too big to fully focus all there attention on one being without it bursting into flames. I think for god it would be more difficult for him to know whats going on with one of us, as it would be for one of us to constantly pay attention to - and follow a single cell. :mrgreen:
This assumes that "God" is some sort of discrete entity which is somehow separated from "us". My sense of God is that God pretty much IS ever living thing. The life force that makes something alive, that's God. We, as individualised beings with a clear perception of separation are like "lenses" through which God can and does experience Creation. The reason God can constantly pay attention to every living thing is because God IS every living thing.

That's my experience, anyway. I suppose your mileage may vary. ;) (And so might mine.)