western high magick is extraordinarily complex

[alwayson4]

I dont know how many people have delved into western ceremonial/high magick, but it is extraordinarily complex.


I wonder if it is any more effective than working with spoken affirmations.

[wstein]

I don't know how many people have delved into western ceremonial/high magick, but it is extraordinarily complex.

I wonder if it is any more effective than working with spoken affirmations. Personally, I find affirmations almost useless. I know others swear by them. What magick I've participated in, was more effective. I find energy or sound magic WAY more effective for me. Again this is not true for everybody.

Most of the 'unnecessary' complexity of Magick relates to ritual. Some people require or thrive on ritual. For them its important, even necessary.

Also be aware that use of a lot of 'power' objects is woven into magick. Use of objects complicates any system but the boost is necessary to be effective for most. Until you can source your own energy (practice lots of NEW), you may be stuck with them.

Personally, I like ultra streamlined direct methods. They can be a little abstract and require an innate sense of what needs to be done (intuition). Often they can be too unstructured for beginners. Starting with an energy system tends to lead to a less complex set of powerful skills.

[ButterflyWoman]

I'm with wstein on this one. I find high magick to be incredibly fiddly. Low magick (such as simple witchcraft) is better, but the ritual is still annoying, at least to me. I am of the studied opinion that the ritual is just a way of seriously focusing your intent and energy (and that applies to religious ritual, as well, though most practitioners of religious ritual don't fully appreciate that they're meant to be actually invoking Deity).

I use affirmations, after having heard one of Robert Bruce's podcasts on the topic, but for the most part, I haven't had much luck with them. I actually find it easier to just say what I want/expect and then expect it to happen. That works for me more often than not, provided I'm centered and not getting a lot of interference from my own thoughts, emotions, etc.


Personally, I like ultra streamlined direct methods. They can be a little abstract and require an innate sense of what needs to be done (intuition).
Yup. That's the ticket.

[alwayson4]

Affirmations work for me.

But I put a lot of effort into chanting them out loud every day. Chant each one like you would a mantra (say each one multiple times). The key part is putting that kind of effort into it.

wstein, what is energy and sound magick? I have no idea what you are talking about.

[ButterflyWoman]

I do affirmations out loud, as well. I find that I get better results from saying it and expecting it, rather than repeating affirmations. I've tried all kinds of affirmation styles, including Afformations (also recommended by Robert, and yes, I spelled that right ;)). It just doesn't sit well with me. I can't say "I am slim and healthy" and believe it to be true, because it isn't, and it hasn't been for a long time. Some part of my subconscious says, "Uh, yeah, right, whatever," and reinforces the existing belief.

It's a bit like hammering metal, I think. The more you work it, the harder and more resistant the metal becomes. Hammering my subsconscious mind with stuff I don't believe just makes it more difficult to work with.

I do know that some people have great results from affirmations. I just don't.

I do, however, have good results from just placing an order and damn well expecting it to be carried out. I always get what I expect, for good or ill, so I have to consider very carefully what my true expectations are.

[alwayson4]

WHILE you chant the affirmations, think about MECHANICALLY how they work (how the throat chakra projects it onto the astral plance where your Higher Self will engage with them).

If you think about what is actually happening during the chanting, you will get satisfaction from that in of itself. It has nothing to do about whether or not your subconscious is accepting the affirmations, because you are working just like you work at a job to get money. If you try to constantly battle your mind to accept the affirmations, you will always quit.

I hope this made sense.

[Ouroboros]

I agree with wstein and OlderWiser, although I am far less experienced in the actual practice of magick. Intuitively though, it is my belief that rituals are simply focusing tools for energy/intent. They are helpful to some, but not necessarily required in order to achieve the desired effect.

I have not had much lasting success with affirmations. I find myself in much the same position as OlderWiser - stating an affirmation seems to bring into sharper focus the disparity between what actually is and what I desire to be.

[Korpo]

It's a bit like hammering metal, I think. The more you work it, the harder and more resistant the metal becomes. Hammering my subsconscious mind with stuff I don't believe just makes it more difficult to work with.

Yes, that has not been working for me either. Evidence to the contrary and such.

Oliver

[alwayson4]

stating an affirmation seems to bring into sharper focus the disparity between what actually is and what I desire to be.


Don't approach affirmations from the Law of Attraction/New Age nonsense, which seems to be what you guys are doing because many of you said you are trying to get your subconscious to believe your affirmations.

Instead think of what is taught here....HIGHER SELF..throat chakra...astral plane. Remember that you are literally God. While you are chanting the affirmations you are merely proving to your Higher Self how important these things are to you. You do NOT need to believe that they are already true in your life.

These are two different paradigms.

[star]

The aspects your affirming against have enough intelligence and willpower to resist change. If you find that they forcebly fight against change, you'll want to locate the actual aspect that's angry, and speak to it directly. If you know your Franz Bardon, you can dissect the bugger and change its elementà l structure, forcing a positive change.


Otherwise, this way of dealing with it only takes but a few moments. And is 100% effective in all my cases. Even when I work on the aspects of others.

[ButterflyWoman]

Don't approach affirmations from the Law of Attraction/New Age nonsense, which seems to be what you guys are doing because many of you said you are trying to get your subconscious to believe your affirmations.
No. My subconscious often resists, because it believes otherwise. It's more a matter of having a block.

That being said, as I noted, I actually have other, very effective ways of accomplishing what I intend. I use those methods (well, one method in particular) in preference to anything else, including affirmations.

Quite possibly what I do is similar to what you're trying to describe, but just in different words. As I also noted, what I do is very much intuitive and symbolic, very hard to describe in something as clumsy as language.


The aspects your affirming against have enough intelligence and willpower to resist change. If you find that they forcebly fight against change, you'll want to locate the actual aspect that's angry, and speak to it directly. If you know your Franz Bardon, you can dissect the bugger and change its elementà l structure, forcing a positive change.

Otherwise, this way of dealing with it only takes but a few moments. And is 100% effective in all my cases. Even when I work on the aspects of others.
Interesting. Thoughtforms? Thought fields... ? Hmmm.

I'm afraid I'm not much into Franz Bardon, but I'm well acquainted with finding parts of my own psyche and dealing with them directly in various ways.

Can you elaborate on how you go about doing that?

[Korpo]

Don't approach affirmations from the Law of Attraction/New Age nonsense, which seems to be what you guys are doing because many of you said you are trying to get your subconscious to believe your affirmations.

Could you just quit calling other people's beliefs nonsense. Someone might return you the favor.


Instead think of what is taught here....HIGHER SELF..throat chakra...astral plane. Remember that you are literally God. While you are chanting the affirmations you are merely proving to your Higher Self how important these things are to you. You do NOT need to believe that they are already true in your life.

And that's what you believe. Or maybe people like Robert Bruce just deep down believe that affirmations work miracles, and that's why they actually do for them. And maybe that's what the real difference is, and not the form, ritual or style. And the same would not happen for another person, no matter how they do them.

But how would you tell the difference?

Oliver

[CFTraveler]

stating an affirmation seems to bring into sharper focus the disparity between what actually is and what I desire to be. If it does that means that you are putting your attention and belief on what you don't want. If this is the case you must do what the New Thought community (not new age) calls Denials- You need to logically come to the conclusion that what you want is possible and what you don't want is not the right thing, or temporary.



Don't approach affirmations from the Law of Attraction/New Age nonsense, which seems to be what you guys are doing because many of you said you are trying to get your subconscious to believe your affirmations.
*sigh*
The purpose of affirmations is to reprogram the already preprogrammed subconscious, to get out of the way of the Superconscious. If we didn't have subconscious minds already programmed with limited thinking, we wouldn't need affirmations, or what I talked about in the earlier paragraph.


Instead think of what is taught here....HIGHER SELF..throat chakra...astral plane. This is a technique just like the other one- self realization is fine and dandy if you're ready to accept your divinity. But most people don't, hence the need for these things.

Remember that you are literally God. While you are chanting the affirmations you are merely proving to your Higher Self how important these things are to you. You do NOT need to believe that they are already true in your life. This is contradictory. We are literally God, yes. We actually don't need these things that we are trying to get by doing A or B. But the part of us that believes we need this is the part that needs to use these techniques, and is the part that is preprogrammed to believe otherwise.
So you see, if you have realized a certain type of transcendent existence, you don't have to do any of this stuff- because you are complete- or more importantly realize you are.
But for the rest of us, who for some reason or another are still clinging to things of the earth, like food, or love (and yes, love is divine, but we yearn it from other living people), and for some reason don't believe we deserve it, or can't have it, affirmations are one tool that is very helpful to use.
Of course, all this becomes much easier when we realize that as divine beings we already have them, but this process of realization isn't instantly achieved by using technical means like opening this or that chakra or traveling to the astral plane.
If anything, I'd say that realization is the way to go. When you can realize your divinity. Everything else, affirmations, energy work, ritual, study, everything, is just tools we use to get this realization (even if 'get' is not the right word).

And please refrain from demeaning movements like the New Age movement. You don't have to like them, or subscribe to their beliefs, but please respect them.
CF.

[Ouroboros]

stating an affirmation seems to bring into sharper focus the disparity between what actually is and what I desire to be. If it does that means that you are putting your attention and belief on what you don't want. If this is the case you must do what the New Thought community (not new age) calls Denials- You need to logically come to the conclusion that what you want is possible and what you don't want is not the right thing, or temporary.


I've heard of the New Thought movement (and read a little about it way back when I first started my spiritual journey) but Denials are something totally new to me. I'll definitely have to check that out.

[alwayson4]

*sigh*
The purpose of affirmations is to reprogram the already preprogrammed subconscious, to get out of the way of the Superconscious. If we didn't have subconscious minds already programmed with limited thinking, we wouldn't need affirmations, or what I talked about in the earlier paragraph.



*sigh*
I do not buy your New Age/New Thought/The Secret/Law of Attraction explanation. Affirmations work because of the Higher Self and thus via an entirely different mechanism, IMO.

[alwayson4]

And maybe that's what the real difference is, and not the form, ritual or style. And the same would not happen for another person, no matter how they do them.

But how would you tell the difference?

Oliver


No

Form and performance counts.

[CFTraveler]

*sigh*
The purpose of affirmations is to reprogram the already preprogrammed subconscious, to get out of the way of the Superconscious. If we didn't have subconscious minds already programmed with limited thinking, we wouldn't need affirmations, or what I talked about in the earlier paragraph.



*sigh*
I do not buy your New Age/New Thought/The Secret/Law of Attraction explanation. Affirmations work because of the Higher Self, IMO.
Everything works because of the Higher Self. You are not understanding what I am trying to say.

[star]

Bee,

I'll first turn my attention inward, seek out the emotion and locate the area it seems to be derived from. I'll feel around, until I find a intelligence or central location for the feeling. My own aspects are about as evolved as children, or less so. Once you find one you can work with it as is, or move it upwards towards the throat for easier communication.

Its easiest for me when I take a relaxed approached, and don"t be too hard on yourself, you can tramautize them if you become too rough, or remove them.

Ah, they can move.. You may find that some of them disapear or hide, or even find a neg hiding in yourself while working.. The important thing is results - results seperate imagination from the real thing. Even though I work through the mental plane to do this. Its something that takes alittle practice.
,.

[alwayson4]

Western magick is based on Judaic thinking.

The problem is that there is no evidence of Judaism before the "return" of the Jews from the Second Baylonian captivity.

There is no evidence for Egyptian captivity (unless they are the Hyskos), King David, Abraham, Moses etc etc. The Torah was first written down during the Second Babylonian captivity. Most scholars agree on this. The debate is whether the material in the Torah actually happened, OR was it made up to keep the "Jews" unified under one philosophy. For example, the making up of the story of Abraham's circumcision covenent, could have provided a unique way for the "Jews" to remain distinct from the Babylonians. But it would have nothing to do with God.

And surely, by making up the story of the Egyptian captivity, the enslaved people could say, "see this happened before"

Then I guess the kaballah was made up to provide a sorely needed mystical aspect that was missing from an incomplete religion

[star]

If you don't like that system choose another. Its all about finding what fits best isn't it?

[alwayson4]

I really do not know of any other ritualized magick system besides Western

do you?

The only one I can think of is the magick used by Hindu priests in temples. For example, when installing an "idol" into a temple for the first time, the priest will take a yantra (sigil talisman) for that particular diety and put it underneath the idol, and then invoke/evoke that diety into the idol using mantra. Forever on, that idol IS THE DIETY. The talismans are something to behold in of in themselves.

I am Indian, but that type of magick is only passed within the families of the priestly Brahmin class.


Maybe I should get a big bell and ring it during the chanting of my affirmations? That is what the Hindu priests do while chanting mantras during particular rituals.

[Jaco]

Does it have to be ritualized magic?
Maybe some other types of pathworking?

The question you need to ask yourself is: is a magic system with very complex rituals is something that you really need? Do you believe that ringing a bell puts cosmic gears in motion?

[star]

I have an idea for you Always..

I'd suggest working through Franz Bardon's "intitiation into Hermetics" Also Glenn Morris, his first book "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master"

Honestly, rituals are great, and if you can work your astral senses up you can learn a few from the masters themselves, so why putter in the gutter?

[wstein]

Affirmations work for me.

But I put a lot of effort into chanting them out loud every day. Chant each one like you would a mantra (say each one multiple times). The key part is putting that kind of effort into it.

wstein, what is energy and sound magick? I have no idea what you are talking about. Energy Magic is based on applying metaphysical or chi energy (the same stuff talked about with NEW). Basically, you raise and direct energy in various forms in a way to accomplish your goals. Most hands-on healing is a simple form or energy magic (Reike, Quantum Touch, etc).

Sound magic is done with audible sound often with the voice (chanting, toning, etc) or with aspecial bowls, crystals, shakers, etc. Its actually the sound resonance and timber that does most of the work. Its has limited versatility as it usually requires you to be physically present with what you want to change. It is good for healing, looking for entities, altering people's moods. It is easily done with groups of varying experience. Note: not so useful during OBE.

Much is written about each.

[ButterflyWoman]

Energy Magic is based on applying metaphysical or chi energy (the same stuff talked about with NEW). Basically, you raise and direct energy in various forms in a way to accomplish your goals. Most hands-on healing is a simple form or energy magic (Reike, Quantum Touch, etc).
Hey, I do that. I always did it more or less intuitively, just sort of feeling my way (I do most things that way, actually).

I haven't done a lot of hands-on healing, but I'm working my way up to that. I've first been practicing by healing myself.

I need to do some research into energy magic, now that I know what it's called. Thanks. :)

[alwayson4]

Read this everyone

http://blog.astraldynamics.com/?p=537


Notice the key word is "intensive" i.e. outloud over many hours

[alwayson4]

http://blog.astraldynamics.com/?p=698

[Blue Mage]

Do affirmations work better if you "sigilize" them? By that I mean, instead of chanting your affirmation, turn the words around into a nonsense-sounding phrase, that way they would get less resistance from the subconscious.

[CFTraveler]

Only if the sigils mean anything to you personally. They may resonate with the archetype they symbolize if it's meaningful, or if it has the 'support' of belief from large groups of people behind it.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

I've come to this thread late but wanted to comment because this has been a theme for me lately...

I've kind of come full circle on the subject of ritual and physical aids. Originally my view was along the lines others have stated -- physical tools are just ways to focus my energy and intent, so why can't I just do that without the middle-man?

What I've found since, was that there seemed to be a disconnect between my subconscious mind / energy / etc., and my physical results. Belief system purge? Check. Militantly optimistic? Check. Energy and emotions? Feeling great. Goals, expectations and intent? Well defined and consistent. Outward life? Not changing or showing any correlation to any of the other stuff, in spite of that being part of the reason for focusing so much on the other stuff to begin with.

I don't know how it is for others but the theory in my case was that my subconscious mind was somewhat isolated from physical feedback, and thus didn't fully understand what I meant when I intended physical results. More than likely I'd express a desire, and it would send some part of myself to fulfill it somewhere in the astral, come back and go "job done!"

So then it clicked -- the subconscious mind speaks in symbols, so maybe to get it to understand the concept of physical results, use physical symbols. I further realized that the few times I have done some sort of physical ritual to symbolize my intent, it has worked, and worked well. I was just so stuck on the idea of reliance on energy and intent alone, without fully realizing it, that I didn't do that very often.

I'm sure there will come a time when my conscious and subconscious mind are "bridged" well enough to understand each other's intentions better in practice, though for now, this is what seems to work, and I can't really argue with results.

[CFTraveler]

Ecco.
Plus, I think we're wired for ritual, whether we like it or not.
So, if we're built that way, why not use it?

[ButterflyWoman]

I think we're wired for ritual, whether we like it or not.
I agree. Ritual and storytelling. That's pretty much the whole of our lives, when you get down to brass tacks. We observe all kinds of ritual (mostly totally mundane, like the way we wash the dishes), constantly, all the time, and every thought, every memory, every nuance of that which we think of as "ourselves" is really just a story our mind is telling. Rituals and stories, that's it.

May as well use them to our advantage.

[wstein]

I think we're wired for ritual, whether we like it or not.
I agree. Ritual and storytelling. That's pretty much the whole of our lives, when you get down to brass tacks. We observe all kinds of ritual (mostly totally mundane, like the way we wash the dishes), constantly, all the time, and every thought, every memory, every nuance of that which we think of as "ourselves" is really just a story our mind is telling. Rituals and stories, that's it.

May as well use them to our advantage. While very comon, not everyone is wired that way.
There's no point in fighting your basic nature.
The story your mind is telling you is more likely your ego, not yourself.

[ButterflyWoman]

The story your mind is telling you is more likely your ego, not yourself.
That's why I put "ourselves" in quotes. I'm well aware that the ego-self is just a series of stories strung together by the viewpoint that all of these stories are "mine". ;)