OBE and lucid dreaming

[amazingjourney]

I have some questions about this:

1) While we are lucid dreaming, we might all of a sudden remember that we would like to try OBEing or flying, or whatever. Is the OBE that we do during lucid dreaming an OBE or is it just a dream? (If we didn't do reality check, there probably is no way of knowing?)

2) Are false awakening and lucid dreaming the same thing? (False awakening can be a dream also?)

3) Can lucid dreaming also be an OBE? This I think the answer is yes.

[Korpo]

1) While we are lucid dreaming, we might all of a sudden remember that we would like to try OBEing or flying, or whatever. Is the OBE that we do during lucid dreaming an OBE or is it just a dream? (If we didn't do reality check, there probably is no way of knowing?)

Several authors have stated, that lucid dreaming can be used as a springboard to attain OBEs. I think Robert is among them, who seems to categorise these similar to OBEs where you "wake up" out of body (and have forgotten the exit) - true OBEs, but a little less useful for validation purposes (if that matters to you) since you never perceived yourself go from waking consciousness to altered state, exit and OBE.


2) Are false awakening and lucid dreaming the same thing? (False awakening can be a dream also?)

No, to be lucid requires to be aware of your situation. If you have a false awakening you play along with the situation, but are not aware that you are still dreaming. In a lucid dream you know you are dreaming and have access to at least part of your mental faculties. In a lucid dream your mind is challenging the environment it experiences. In a non-lucid false awakening the mind goes along, till it either gets lucid because it notices an inconsistency (or possibly makes a reality check), or till you wake up from it.


3) Can lucid dreaming also be an OBE? This I think the answer is yes.

Kurt Leland describes attaining lucidity in dreams as his major springboard for OBEs in his book "OtherWhere". In his book "The Unanswered Question" gaining lucidity is part of "starting" an adventure. Looking at his description the move between mental states and degrees of lucidity is fluid and can move in stages. He goes from playing along as if it is a dream to becoming lucid (and possibly back) and then starts his adventures in OtherWhere - the afterlife.

Sometimes he still has to cross a boundary, denoting changing over from the "Dream Zone" to the wider non-physical reality. Sometimes the scenario he finds himself in "just" requires him to becme lucid. The first scenario at least sounds like non-lucid dream to lucid dream to OBE and the second sounds like non-lucid OBE to lucid OBE. The difference is whether he finds himself in the narrow confines of what he calls "the Dream Zone" where we usually go when we dream or already in the wider astral and beyond. (At least it sounded like that to me.) According to "OtherWhere" we cannot go to the wider astral if we experience negative emotions, that confine us to the Dream Zone, where they can be expressed without affecting the wider astral.

I guess if we lose lucidity or never become quite lucid during an OBE we would remember it like an odd dream. Lucidity is the basic awareness of what reality you are in and the ability to make conscious decisions about how to interact with it. If you never achieve that during the experience, your mind goes along like a sleepwalker, accepting whatever reality it is presented.

Oliver

[wstein]

1) While we are lucid dreaming, we might all of a sudden remember that we would like to try OBEing or flying, or whatever. Is the OBE that we do during lucid dreaming an OBE or is it just a dream? (If we didn't do reality check, there probably is no way of knowing?) It can be either. Telling a dream of an OBE from an OBE can be tricky. There are differences which are more apparent with experience. Dreams tend to be less coherent in terms of the normal world. For instance in an OBE you normally have to initiate an action to go to another location (returning to your body requires no action). Another big difference is the ways in which you can change things in your environment. Changing things in OBE normally takes energy (of course recognizing energy use takes its own kind of experience).


2) Are false awakening and lucid dreaming the same thing? (False awakening can be a dream also?) No. A false awakening is simply waking up while inside a dream. Lucid dreaming is whenever you are aware that you are dreaming. Its very possible to do both of these at the same time.


3) Can lucid dreaming also be an OBE? This I think the answer is yes. No. These are quite distinct. It is possible to transition from one to the other. As per question 1), dreaming of OBEing can be confusing to identify, but is not the same as actual OBE. While possible, dreaming while on an OBE is extremely rare. Usually you return to your body and simply continue (normal or lucid) dreaming.



A side note for more advanced Lucid Dreaming practitioners: Its possible to invoke the just the Lucid part (no dreaming) at any time (including awake or OBE).

[CFTraveler]

Agreed to all of the above.
One way that you can have a false awakening and lucid dream at the same time is to wake up, go to the kitchen, try to make toast, have your hand go through the toaster and realize you're not awake. Usually this will either cause you to wake up (thus ending the dream) but sometimes you can bilocate (feel where your body is yet keep your location by focusing on what you're looking at) and have a (usually short) OBE.
:D

[amazingjourney]

Thank you Korpo, wstein, and CF! This really cleared things for me a lot!

I think I am just wondering about some experiences that I had recently. In one of them, I was in a bus, but something is inconsistant so I realized I was lucid dreaming. Next thing I know I was on my bed checking if I am OBEing (Is this bilocation?) Next I tried roll over to the floor side and didn't fall off and I saw my own body outline on the bed. So I concluded that I really was OBEing. I then remember that I always wanted to move out of my room. So I said to myself "to the door" and I moved to the door effortlessly (Can this be dreaming, although wstein said that it takes energy when moving in OBE), with the sense of movement.

The other time, I noticed the inconsistancy again where I already got up in the kitchen one minute (Is this part false awakening?) , but the next minute, I was on my bed thinking I had to get up early. So I realized I was lucid dreaming. I thought then I must be able to float away. So I did the rolling out of bed. And I did without falling. I was again very glad. And then I also remember that I wanted to move out of the room and to the living room door to get out. I said "to the door" and I did, with the sense of movement. (Does this sound more like an OBE or a dream?)

It sounds like when we do the recording or the reality check, it doesn't necessarily only happen in real OBE right?

But when we do reality check, it means that we have become lucid, so from there, although we are still lucid dreaming, we can try going out of body from there.

[CFTraveler]

Thank you Korpo, wstein, and CF! This really cleared things for me a lot!

I think I am just wondering about some experiences that I had recently. In one of them, I was in a bus, but something is inconsistant so I realized I was lucid dreaming. Next thing I know I was on my bed checking if I am OBEing (Is this bilocation?) Not necessarily- I just think you got lucid on the way to waking, which is natural.

Next I tried roll over to the floor side and didn't fall off and I saw my own body outline on the bed. So I concluded that I really was OBEing. I then remember that I always wanted to move out of my room. So I said to myself "to the door" and I moved to the door effortlessly (Can this be dreaming, although wstein said that it takes energy when moving in OBE), with the sense of movement. Sounds like a bonafide OBE. You woke up from a dream and instead of fully waking stayed in trance and exited.

The other time, I noticed the inconsistancy again where I already got up in the kitchen one minute (Is this part false awakening?) , but the next minute, I was on my bed thinking I had to get up early. So I realized I was lucid dreaming. I thought then I must be able to float away. So I did the rolling out of bed. And I did without falling. I was again very glad. And then I also remember that I wanted to move out of the room and to the living room door to get out. I said "to the door" and I did, with the sense of movement. (Does this sound more like an OBE or a dream?) I would call this a 'false awakening of the OBE kind'.

It sounds like when we do the recording or the reality check, it doesn't necessarily only happen in real OBE right? Not sure what you mean by this.

But when we do reality check, it means that we have become lucid, so from there, although we are still lucid dreaming, we can try going out of body from there. The reality check is what facilitates lucidity- it's just habit that extends to dreaming, making us lucid if it works correctly. And then we can indeed OBE from there, or astral travel.

[Korpo]

I think I am just wondering about some experiences that I had recently. In one of them, I was in a bus, but something is inconsistant so I realized I was lucid dreaming.

Just a little terminology nitpicking - until you are realising that you are dreaming, you're only dreaming. After realising, you are having a lucid dream.


Next thing I know I was on my bed checking if I am OBEing (Is this bilocation?)

Bilocation means being aware of being two places at once - in parallel. This sounds like you switched energy body. For example you could have had your dream in your astral body. You realise you are dreaming, becoming lucid. Then you think about checking whether you are OBEing, which you instinctly associate with your body or the physical/etherical plane. You switch to your etheric body, or what Monroe calls the "2nd body".


Next I tried roll over to the floor side and didn't fall off and I saw my own body outline on the bed. So I concluded that I really was OBEing. I then remember that I always wanted to move out of my room. So I said to myself "to the door" and I moved to the door effortlessly (Can this be dreaming, although wstein said that it takes energy when moving in OBE), with the sense of movement.

I would call it an OBE. You actually realise that you have a dream, then switch to another energy body. Then you can observe that this body is verifiably different from your physical body and independent of it, and also follows different laws. For all practical purposes this is an OBE, IMO.


The other time, I noticed the inconsistancy again where I already got up in the kitchen one minute (Is this part false awakening?) , but the next minute, I was on my bed thinking I had to get up early. So I realized I was lucid dreaming. I thought then I must be able to float away. So I did the rolling out of bed. And I did without falling. I was again very glad. And then I also remember that I wanted to move out of the room and to the living room door to get out. I said "to the door" and I did, with the sense of movement. (Does this sound more like an OBE or a dream?)

I generally would drop the difference between dream and OBE, as it is not helpful IMO. The really important factor - are you aware of the situation you are in? Are you aware of the properties of the reality you are in? In other words, are you lucid?

This is why reality checking is so important. Travelling at the speed of thought is a property of OBE, and even in dreams we sometimes have sudden changes of scene and action that are impossible in the physical world. The decisive thing is - can you spot it and make it work to your advantage? Can you make reality testing a habit and see if the reality around you is actually out of body?

Non-lucidity is not mindlessness. Non-lucidity means "blindly" accepting the reality you are presented with. A salamander in your living room. Must have somehow gotten in. Starts to eat your shoes. Must be hungry. Eats your hamster. Must have been a carnivorous salamander. Turns into a bunny. Hmm, I wonder if I just did not pay attention... Know what I mean? Accepting an illogical and inconsistent reality, or not realising that a reality you are in does not work like the physical world, is non-lucidity.


It sounds like when we do the recording or the reality check, it doesn't necessarily only happen in real OBE right?

Reality checking is actually an exercise you do occasionally so that you get the habit of questioning reality. By looking for inconsistencies and exploring them you can turn lucid. If you are in the habit of looking for them in waking life, chances are you remember to check in a dream, too.


But when we do reality check, it means that we have become lucid, so from there, although we are still lucid dreaming, we can try going out of body from there.

I am of the opinion that dreaming happens already out of body.

Oliver

[amazingjourney]

Thank you so much for the reply!! For a beginner, the input is so helpful in sorting different things out!! :D




Just a little terminology nitpicking - until you are realising that you are dreaming, you're only dreaming. After realising, you are having a lucid dream.



Yes, I understand this.




Bilocation means being aware of being two places at once - in parallel. This sounds like you switched energy body. For example you could have had your dream in your astral body. You realise you are dreaming, becoming lucid. Then you think about checking whether you are OBEing, which you instinctly associate with your body or the physical/etherical plane. You switch to your etheric body, or what Monroe calls the "2nd body".



I was not familiar with this concept of switching energy body. So thank you! :D





The other time, I noticed the inconsistancy again where I already got up in the kitchen one minute (Is this part false awakening?) , but the next minute, I was on my bed thinking I had to get up early. So I realized I was lucid dreaming. I thought then I must be able to float away. So I did the rolling out of bed. And I did without falling. I was again very glad. And then I also remember that I wanted to move out of the room and to the living room door to get out. I said "to the door" and I did, with the sense of movement. (Does this sound more like an OBE or a dream?)

I generally would drop the difference between dream and OBE, as it is not helpful IMO. The really important factor - are you aware of the situation you are in? Are you aware of the properties of the reality you are in? In other words, are you lucid?

Non-lucidity is not mindlessness. Non-lucidity means "blindly" accepting the reality you are presented with. A salamander in your living room. Must have somehow gotten in. Starts to eat your shoes. Must be hungry. Eats your hamster. Must have been a carnivorous salamander. Turns into a bunny. Hmm, I wonder if I just did not pay attention... Know what I mean? Accepting an illogical and inconsistent reality, or not realising that a reality you are in does not work like the physical world, is non-lucidity.


Yes, this is something I am not very clear too, because a lot of times, the thing takes place in astral projection is kinda not quite the reality, but it can be on another astral plane. It can be different from real time zone OBE. But once we are on another astral plane, things can be different from our reality though. :?: So in that case, it's hard to tell. But the other night I had a very lucid experience. The exit is this falling sensation and the moving in a kind of speed and tube-like space, and then things appear in front of me with such intensity and details that I feel like that must be one element of "lucidity" too. I was like I must be on another plane, and I am visiting this place and I got to record everything I see. I did try to fly in it and it did get sluggish. And then the sensation in the belly brought me back to my body.

Does this sound like lucidity?





Reality checking is actually an exercise you do occasionally so that you get the habit of questioning reality. By looking for inconsistencies and exploring them you can turn lucid. If you are in the habit of looking for them in waking life, chances are you remember to check in a dream, too.


Is it ever possible where we dream about the whole thing on reality check and seeing our hand melting, hence it is actually a dream?






The other time, I noticed the inconsistancy again where I already got up in the kitchen one minute (Is this part false awakening?) , but the next minute, I was on my bed thinking I had to get up early. So I realized I was lucid dreaming. I thought then I must be able to float away. So I did the rolling out of bed. And I did without falling. I was again very glad. And then I also remember that I wanted to move out of the room and to the living room door to get out. I said "to the door" and I did, with the sense of movement. (Does this sound more like an OBE or a dream?)

I would call this a 'false awakening of the OBE kind'.



Does this mean "did not really become lucid, and is still a dream?"

If yes, what element in this experience is missing for being lucid?

[CFTraveler]

Does this mean "did not really become lucid, and is still a dream?" If yes, what element is missing for being lucid? No, it means it was an OBE. If you know the condition isn't 'normal waking', there's lucidity. But according to some (and I agree) all false awakenings are OBEs, and most are RTZ OBEs. When you start manipulating the environment (like you can flip the switch but the light doesn't come on) dreamlike conditions (reality fluctuations) are still in charge. So the distinction at this point becomes vague, because you're so close to waking completely.

[wstein]

The other time, I noticed the inconsistancy again where I already got up in the kitchen one minute (Is this part false awakening?) , but the next minute, I was on my bed thinking I had to get up early. So I realized I was lucid dreaming. I thought then I must be able to float away. So I did the rolling out of bed. And I did without falling. I was again very glad. And then I also remember that I wanted to move out of the room and to the living room door to get out. I said "to the door" and I did, with the sense of movement. (Does this sound more like an OBE or a dream?) During OBE it takes action or intent to move. In dreaming, you might also relocate spontaneously. During OBE only returning to your physical body can be spontaneous.

During OBE it (usually) takes energy to alter the environment. In dreaming it takes action or intent to alter the environment.

[slightly over simplified for clarity]

[Korpo]

But the other night I had a very lucid experience. The exit is this falling sensation and the moving in a kind of speed and tube-like space, and then things appear in front of me with such intensity and details that I feel like that must be one element of "lucidity" too. I was like I must be on another plane, and I am visiting this place and I got to record everything I see. I did try to fly in it and it did get sluggish. And then the sensation in the belly brought me back to my body.

Does this sound like lucidity?

If you were aware while it was happening that what you were experiencing was not physical reality, then it was lucidity. Observing the exit is an excellent way to gain lucidity. That's why people try to have consciously induced OBEs or wake-induced lucid dreams (WILDs).

Oliver

[RyanParis]

In my experience, there's a big difference between a lucid dream and an OBE. In a lucid dream, the experience is obviously happening in your head and you know it. In an OBE, the experience is obviously happening somewhere else, such as in your room. There's a clear difference.

An OBE or astral projection, such as described by Robert Bruce on this website, is as real as you sitting here reading this message, it's not a normal dream or a normal lucid dream in any sense, it is a separate phenomena.

[Korpo]

Cannot subscribe to that at all.

I mean, my dreams are so vivid I have problems discerning them from wake life. I often wake up and only after a while notice that a dream was a dream.

So, in my limited experience, OBEs, lucid dreams and dreams can be like being waking, or less clear than that. The degree of clarity varies for me for all of them.

I personally think that if you believe your dreams are "just in your head" while OBEs are "the real thing" then you are bound to have less vivid dreams just to prove your beliefs right. Beliefs shape perception. As soon as I took my dreams more seriously, I had way more vivid dreams, more lucid and near-lucid experiences. In fact, from terms of vividness they seem so vivid I often fail to question them and therefore fail to become lucid.

Oliver

[amazingjourney]

OBEs, lucid dreams and dreams can be like being waking, or less clear than that. The degree of clarity varies for me for all of them.



I wasn't clear about these differences before. If I did, I would remember a lot more of my experiences to be OBEs. Most times, I just thought they were just dreams and never thought too much about it or put them into journal.

There are degrees of clarity to these experiences.

The radio interview of that skilled projector once had a bilocation event, where she had got up in the morning, drove to a meeting in a school, only to find she also sensed things at home. And another friend happened to visit her at the same time at her house and saw her walking around in the house, but this projector didn't open the door for her. So she got mad.

Later this projector found out that she was OBEing while going to the meeting. And she was in the meeting, but was also at home!! :shock:

The experience in our physical body in my opinion will be the most real, because of all the senses we have in our physical body. But OBE can be very real too, although without the senses of our physical body.

In some dreams, sometimes you feel like you have never seen, feel, hear with such intensity and details! And telepathy and other super power ability makes it even more whole than in our physical body, because we are operating with the alignment of our body and soul.

[Korpo]

I wasn't clear about these differences before. If I did, I would remember a lot more of my experiences to be OBEs. Most times, I just thought they were just dreams and never thought too much about it or put them into journal.

There are degrees of clarity to these experiences.

I can give you some examples. I had a fully lucid dream once. But everything was very shady. Like looking through a black sheet of glass. But I was definitely lucid. It started out as lucid. I even surprised myself in that dream. I had varying degrees of lucidity and of clarity since.

My clarity changed when stepping through doors, for example. I had a clear dream, but stepped through a door, and suddenly everything was blurry like without wearing glasses but suddenly I was lucid. In that lucid dream I mentioned earlier I stepped through a door and lost all sense impressions, for example.

I have had several switches back and forth over the years. Sometimes I could see, sometimes see only shady, sometimes not, once I noticed I had some weird tunnel vision, once I even had 3D touch, but no sight. Not a single of these experiences was preceded by a conscious exit. All were spontaneous or from dreams. I would not discount such experiences.

Oliver

[CFTraveler]

An OBE or astral projection, such as described by Robert Bruce on this website, is as real as you sitting here reading this message, it's not a normal dream or a normal lucid dream in any sense, it is a separate phenomena.

Not so much. In Robert's words,

Dreams
This is how the subconscious mind creates dreams: By tuning into the astral dimension during sleep, it can create any scenario it wishes. This is the subconscious mind's way of solving problems and of communicating with the conscious mind. It creates a series of complex thought form scenarios and projects them into the mind stuff of the astral dimension, where they become solid. The conscious mind then lives through and experiences these created scenarios in the dream state. In a way its like a movie projector (subconscious mind) projecting onto a movie screen (astral dimension).

http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutorials ... art-1.html (http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutorials/astral-projection/part-1.html)

A dream is a type of Astral Projection- so it's not fair to say they are differnt things. They are experienced differently if the exit is perceived, but clarity and lucidity are not dependent on the region (dream or OBE), they are dependent on the experiencer.
Your experience is obviously your experience, and apparently your OBEs are very clear, lifelike and lucid, but it is not the case for everyone.

[amazingjourney]

A dream is a type of Astral Projection- so it's not fair to say they are differnt things. They are experienced differently if the exit is perceived, but clarity and lucidity are not dependent on the region (dream or OBE), they are dependent on the experiencer.



Yes, according to Kurt Leland's explanation in one of the threads here, the difference b/t a common dream and a lucid dream seems to be:

"In a common dream, we are at a public area, one of the areas in astral plane, to watch a movie, in which our own earth-based life creates the dream realities and we are unaware of the architecture and the staff in this public area. But in lucid dream, we become aware of being in the dream and, of the architecture and are able to interact with the staff."

He said the goal is to be able to control what happens in a lucid dream and use it to explore the astral plane. When you find yourself visit the same places in recurrent dreams and can interact with the characters there, you can almost say that you projected to this dream zone in astral plane.

So it seems that in a common dream, we are watching a movie but we are only in the public area, to watch what our subconscious play out. But in lucid dreams, we seems to project to the astral plane and are able to interact with the people there and are aware of the surrounding there.

"public area" sounds to be in the astral as well. That would mean whenever we are dreaming, common dream or lucid dream, we project to somewhere else and not in our body? That would also mean all dreams are a mystical experience, and not just a psychic experience?

[Korpo]

From reading "OtherWhere" and "The Unanswered Question" the distinction Kurt makes it not between the astral/not-astral, but between the "Dream Zone" and the wider "OtherWhere". IIRC I have read that all dreams happen in a non-physical plane, but since we manifest in the astral with our emotions and thoughts, these experiences are confined to this "Dream Zone". A closed-off area of the astral where we can "do no damage" by creating thoughtforms that would "soil" the astral and its inhabitants. Negative emotion gets contained in and plays out in the "Dream Zone".

If I understood his model correctly you need a reasonably neutral state of mind to cross over in the wider astral from the "Dream Zone", but it is all made of the same thought- and feeling-responsive stuff. That's why you can change the scenery in a really lucid experience - it is already the astral plane and its essence responds to your mind.

In "OtherWhere" he describes how he is taught to become lucid and how he is then allowed to pass beyond of the "Dream Zone". The book has some very inspiring passages that helped me have more lucidity in my dreams just by having been exposed to them.

Oliver

[amazingjourney]

From reading "OtherWhere" and "The Unanswered Question" the distinction Kurt makes it not between the astral/not-astral, but between the "Dream Zone" and the wider "OtherWhere". IIRC I have read that all dreams happen in a non-physical plane, but since we manifest in the astral with our emotions and thoughts, these experiences are confined to this "Dream Zone". A closed-off area of the astral where we can "do no damage" by creating thoughtforms that would "soil" the astral and its inhabitants. Negative emotion gets contained in and plays out in the "Dream Zone".

If I understood his model correctly you need a reasonably neutral state of mind to cross over in the wider astral from the "Dream Zone", but it is all made of the same thought- and feeling-responsive stuff. That's why you can change the scenery in a really lucid experience - it is already the astral plane and its essence responds to your mind.

In "OtherWhere" he describes how he is taught to become lucid and how he is then allowed to pass beyond of the "Dream Zone". The book has some very inspiring passages that helped me have more lucidity in my dreams just by having been exposed to them.

Oliver

Wow, this sounds really interesting! I have ordered "the unswered questions" which is on the way. I should order "otherwhere" too. :D

[GEORGE]

Robert i bought you mastering astral projection cd companion. How come every time i listen to you # 2 cd, when i get up i can hardly stand and my blood pressure is over 200 over 140 or more. i have stoped using the cd set. what is going on.


An OBE or astral projection, such as described by Robert Bruce on this website, is as real as you sitting here reading this message, it's not a normal dream or a normal lucid dream in any sense, it is a separate phenomena.

Not so much. In Robert's words,

Dreams
This is how the subconscious mind creates dreams: By tuning into the astral dimension during sleep, it can create any scenario it wishes. This is the subconscious mind's way of solving problems and of communicating with the conscious mind. It creates a series of complex thought form scenarios and projects them into the mind stuff of the astral dimension, where they become solid. The conscious mind then lives through and experiences these created scenarios in the dream state. In a way its like a movie projector (subconscious mind) projecting onto a movie screen (astral dimension).

http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutorials ... art-1.html (http://www.astraldynamics.com/tutorials/astral-projection/part-1.html)

A dream is a type of Astral Projection- so it's not fair to say they are differnt things. They are experienced differently if the exit is perceived, but clarity and lucidity are not dependent on the region (dream or OBE), they are dependent on the experiencer.
Your experience is obviously your experience, and apparently your OBEs are very clear, lifelike and lucid, but it is not the case for everyone.

[CFTraveler]

Hmm, are you taking your blood pressure in the same position as when you get up, without using the binaurals? Some people have bp problems that only happen in certain positions (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=17237), such as lying down or getting up immediately. If you suspect that the binaural beats are causing bp problems (and not the positional differences), then you should talk to your physician, because this reaction is not normal, and can result from an underlying health problem that the binaural beats are bringing out.
I'm not sure if epilepsy can cause bp anomalies, but binaurals are not recommended with people that have epilepsy or any other type of seizure disorder.