Dreaming from the Buddhist perspective

[alwayson4]

The goal of vajrayana Buddhism is to go beyond the dream into the deep trance state i.e. aware while asleep.

This is to prepare for death, because even Robert Bruce has indicated that most people will fall into an unconscious dream after death, where they do not even realize they died (just like when you are dreaming, you do not realize you are dreaming). This is exactly the same as Tibetan teachings.

So the steps are:

a) First goal is to become lucid while dreaming. Once you become lucid, you should just sit down whereever you are in the dream and not do anything. Just observe the surroundings. This will prepare you for the afterlife. You can become lucid in the afterlife. And if you passivley observe the surroundings in the afterlife, you will gain instant Buddhahood.

b) Eventually the goal is to not dream at all unless one wills it. You should be aware all throughout the sleep process (i.e. deep trance). This is intimately associated with being mindful 24/7, i.e. staying in the natural state/the NOW.


So in summary, dreams are just mental trash. Become lucid, and then do not interact with them. Just passively observe the manifestations of your own mind. Once you get the hang of that, try to stay mindful and aware during the sleep process :shock:

[Korpo]

Dreams offer wonderful growth perspectives and are a means of connecting to guidance. You just fail to see that.

Oliver

[alwayson4]

Yes dreams will allow you some insight. I keep a dream log.

What is wrong with becoming lucid and passively watching the manifestations of the mind?

Anyway, I gave the Buddhist perspective.....you should not criticize me personally

[Korpo]

Yes dreams will allow you some insight. I keep a dream log.

What is wrong with becoming lucid and passively watching the manifestations of the mind?

You just described dreams as "mental crap". This statement I clearly take fault with. It is IMO misguiding for others and devaluing dreams as expressions of guidance. From my point of view, it is an invalid statement.

From the context it is clear I was not referencing the technique of becoming lucid. I have no opinion to offer about that. The Tibetan teachings hold no special value to me.


Anyway, I gave the Buddhist perspective.....you should not criticize me personally

No, you gave your own interpretation and perspective. Again, you fail to see the difference.

You are not speaking for Buddhism, nor is your interpretation necessarily accurate, nor it is assured it is even remotely close to what the Buddhist teachers meant. You just assume that.

Oliver

[Tom]

In Buddhism and Hinduism there are techniques for bringing dreaming to an end, unless specifically chosen as something to experience. When deep dreamless sleep becomes mixed with conscious awareness it becomes a stepping-off point for attaining full enlightenment. In Hinduism / Yoga the approach I'm familiar with is called Yoga Nidra. In Buddhism, the Yogas of Dream and Sleep. The quality of awareness in dreams takes priority over interpreting the content.

[alwayson4]

"The quality of awareness in dreams takes priority over interpreting the content."

AMEN!

[CFTraveler]

There's a huge difference between "dream content is crap" and "in Yoga Nidra the object isn't interpretation, it is achieving awareness"

[alwayson4]

I never said crap.

My post always said "trash"

I think everyone would agree that daily mental chatter is trash. I would put dreams in the same category. :D

I am pretty sure tantric Buddhism also puts both in the same category.

There IS value is keeping a dream journal to monitor how your mind is functioning, and IS a major part of introspective work.

I do not think the two paradigms are incompatible.

But the goal should always be to become lucid, and then passively observe the dream environment.

[Tom]

A technique I read years ago is to continually remember "I am" not as words, but the feeling of just being. The purpose is to find the feeling of being present (I am) and to use the words only as needed to bring it back and intensify it. When your being-ness carries on through the day it will begin to extend into your dreaming and eventually your deep sleep. As an alternative to practicing your own presence, you can also choose to practice the presence of God. The important thing is to try to remember at all times, in the back of your mind, as you go about your routine.

(edit - if you are better visually than kinesthetically - sp? - there was a variation involving visualizing a rose. When you can keep it in awareness during the day, look for it in your dreaming.)

[alwayson4]

Yeah I discovered the secrets of this practice sort of by accident while playing with reality (aka NOW).

You keep the mind hyper-focused throughout the day (being mindful during every movement you make, any action you take), and then you try to carry that mindset into sleep.

I found that you will not be able to go asleep as easily, nor is there as much of as a percieved need. So you may want to stay up a little longer. When you do fall sleep, you have a good chance of going into trance. This is all my life-changing personal experience. I later learned about Buddhist practices, and everything clicked together. So a lot of what you are talking about Tom is correct from my own experience.

I think this is why saints sleep a lot less.

The key is to remain hyperfocused every "second" throughout the day, without the mind wandering into thoughts about the past or future. (I put "second" in quotation marks, because time is only a mental concept. In reality, it is always NOW, with the form of NOW changing shape.)

[khragthung]

Im glad I found this post, I have not become buddhist, but after my unintentional lucid dreams and projections began and held a very strong sexual and violent content which was mostly my fault, I searched for techniques to help control myself, some of you may know what I mean by that. Anyway, I read the tibetan book of the dead along with every other new age book and began to practice meditation with a focus on dream yoga, as well as yoga in real life which im not good at. As a result of this, I was able to realise that not all of my thoughts were my own, and this cut down on my temptation to engage in things that were not necessarily positive, which I still find myself doing if im not lucid. As a result, I have had 4 highly intense experiences. The first one I projected and just hovered over the floor and refused to think actively. About a few moments passed and then I went rushing through multi colored light and wind, which I found to be rather unnerving, but managed not to panic. The experience stopped short in a open space with luminous clouds and no structure. I had no body and no thoughts, and was filled with a feeling of peace, then rushed back excaclty the same way I came, instead of just teleporting which I thought was weird, and heard bells after I woke up. Second time I was walking and manifested a monk robe, cleared my mind, and suddenly the landscape dissolved as I levitated and it was mostly red oranged amber and yellow voidness, which was a blissfull feeling. Third time I was focusing on compassion without words and the common awareness of beings when these whirling lights started zooming by (I was awake with my eyes closed) and then I projected what felt like out of my head instead of my usual roll out. The last and most recent was me just sitting without thought amidst a lucid dream and getting filled withthis bliss like feeling, which usually is mild when im in every day life, but is quite intense when meditating in a dream. Since then I have had 2 experiences of awake precognition. One was in my mind I imagined one person telling another person forcefully to hang up the phone, which given that I was meditating was quite random. Then 5 seconds later somebody actually yelled just that. The other instance was sitting at a bar meditating and playing chess I had a strong impression the guy at the end of the bar was going to walk over and ask the lady next to me for french fries and take them before she responded. This happened a few seconds later. Anyway more to the point about yoga and buddhism, I think the key to take away is the discipline of concentration on present moment awarenes that aides in projection and lucid dreaming. As far as what is or is not important I think everthing that passes your mind should at very least be consciously observed, which implies some form of evaluation. I think allowing your mind to run rampant on self indulgent delusional fantasy is less beneficial than observing what comes and goes naturally. I had a real prediliction for day dreaming and often led to negative thoughts and feelings, which can turn into a habit or a pattern of compulsive thinking or behavior. That for me was and is my biggest obstacle. I named me khragthung which means blood filled skull, in buddhist symbolism it represents mortality and dissonent mental states. I felt like that was the root of my suffering.

[CFTraveler]

Hi khrangthung.
A few comments:

Anyway more to the point about yoga and buddhism, I think the key to take away is the discipline of concentration on present moment awarenes that aids in projection and lucid dreaming. As far as what is or is not important I think everthing that passes your mind should at very least be consciously observed, which implies some form of evaluation. I agree with you.

I think allowing your mind to run rampant on self indulgent delusional fantasy is less beneficial than observing what comes and goes naturally I agree with you, but I have one more comment to make- and it's that what sometimes comes up and is interpreted as 'self indulgent delusional fantasy' can be something else entirely, and unless explored and interpreted, it can be internalized if completely suppressed. So I would say, that some things, like doing violence to someone (and even this should be examined) should be something to ultimately transcend, some things that can be classified as fantasy can be a symbolic representation of something else, and shouldn't be completely ignored, but noted along with everything else.
.
I had a real prediliction for day dreaming and often led to negative thoughts and feelings, which can turn into a habit or a pattern of compulsive thinking or behavior. But you have to see that a predilection for daydreaming can be a symptom of something else, and not the cause- that the cause is what needs to be examined, the impulses understood, and then steps taken to remove the impulse in the first place if possible, or to suppress or redirect it into another more positive or less harmful impulse.

I named me khragthung which means blood filled skull, in buddhist symbolism it represents mortality and dissonent mental states. I felt like that was the root of my suffering. I hope that you have found a way to transcend this.

[khragthung]

Thanks for the insight, I fear that I might be repressing stuff, and I'm not really sure what it is. For example recently ive decided to become abstinent and then also celibut, and the reason primarily is the result of how ive mistreated relationships or encounters as well as certain perverse intrests that pervade my thoughts and dreams. Also I wanted to save some energy but that was secondary. But now I'm thinking that this might just be a form of repression. So I guess im torn between allowing myself to go with the flow and get to the root of things as opposed to trying to force a change which could what, result in another problem? I guess my dissonance stems from my desire to be a better person than I am, but I cant seem to do it without just shutting things out. Sort of like how alcoholics stop drinking entirely instead of cutting down. Any advice on how to transform oneself with causing oneself inadvertant damage?

[ButterflyWoman]

Any advice on how to transform oneself with causing oneself inadvertant damage?
First: Truth is always better than a lie (and repression is a kind of lie). No matter what it is, it is always, always better. I say that from experience. It's the way I live my life. Truth is always better than a lie, no matter what the "cost" of truth.

Secondly: Transformation is messy. Caterpillars don't turn into butterflies quickly, neatly, or without great effort and extensive, absolute metamorphosis. How do you define "damage"? A caterpillar is irreparably "damaged" by becoming a butterfly, because it stops being a caterpillar to do so...

[CFTraveler]

For example recently ive decided to become abstinent and then also celibut, and the reason primarily is the result of how ive mistreated relationships or encounters as well as certain perverse intrests that pervade my thoughts and dreams. Well, I'd wager to say (and of course I could be wrong) that the reasons that the relationships didn't work out wasn't because of the sex stuff, but for other reasons, and the sex thing is a result of whatever the problem is. A lot of time we attribute cause to sex when a sexual problem is just cover for something else that is lacking. Without knowing (or wanting to know) what the sexual issue is, I'd guess that what you consider 'perverse' that is happening in your imagination is a way to transfer the energy of whatever the issue is.

But now I'm thinking that this might just be a form of repression. So I guess im torn between allowing myself to go with the flow and get to the root of things as opposed to trying to force a change which could what, result in another problem? It is only a problem if self control is an issue- you don't have to 'go with the flow', but you can't block it out either, or then the problem spins out of control and takes a 'life of it's own', and then you have a bigger problem.

I guess my dissonance stems from my desire to be a better person than I am, but I cant seem to do it without just shutting things out. Sort of like how alcoholics stop drinking entirely instead of cutting down. Any advice on how to transform oneself with causing oneself inadvertant damage? Not knowing what the specific problem is, I'd go on a general bent here and I'd say that you have to realize how good you really are instead of transforming yourself. Once you get the realization that you are essentially good and that all the things you consider 'bad' are things you have 'learned' to 'protect' yourself from perceived (or real) dangers, you can let them go because you don't need them anymore.
This is not as easy as it sounds because coming to the realization that you are essentially good may be in dissonance with the things you have been taught to believe about yourself. But it's a place to start.

[khragthung]

Thanks, that was optomistic. I think my negative atitude might be the underlying issue. I tend to see the worst first, and then focus on it. I never look into the past to look at good times, I always relive the pain, and I also dont look foreward to good times, but I prepare for whatever bad might happen. I will contemplate these ideas. Thanks.