Teenagers and OBE.

[Hastor]

After reading through some articles on here i have noticed a few minors in this group and their presence has caused
me to question the affects of Out of Body Experiances on the developing human body. Many of the well accomplished
projectors i have heard of seem to be older than 18 which leads me to wonder wether the developing human body
hinders the abilities of projectors.

On the other hand, i remember reading in one of Robert's books that very young children often experiance Projection naturally
whichmakes me wonder wether such a developmental stage is the closing end on a time period a heightened natural Projection
ability.

The last question that came to mind did wile i was reading one of the various articles that finds corrolations between
reading as a child and increased brain activity as an adult. This made me question wether attempts at projection during
younger years has a positive or negative affect on projection ability as an adult. Thank you for any help in this little study
of mine. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Korpo]

Many assume that children can use the natural projection ability as they are not weighed down by hindering beliefs about what is possible or not. This belief is rooted in the idea that what prevents a lot of projection-related events to occur or be remembered in most people is the state of their belief system.

There's nothing harmful about astral projection - it is an ability that comes naturally with the fact that you are more than a physical being. I believe that the development of the astral body can actually help the emotional development of a person. Dreams and their symbology aim at teaching us about our emotions. I read (and believe) that every dream of such a nature happens in the astral body, so everybody who can even remember dreams is working naturally with the astral body anyway. See for example "Otherwhere" by Kurt Leland how this relates to the wider astral.

Oliver

[sdbl731]

I agree with what Oliver said. I think that, by the time you reach your teenage years, you already have some form of belief system or other, whether created of your own volition or stuffed down your throat (religious dogma or otherwise). I personally agree with the idea that, depending on what it is, your belief system can "weigh you down" in terms of astral projection / OBE. I certainly feel that this is the case for me, but the problem is I'm not sure what my belief system is anymore because I've changed my mind about the world several times - I've gone from being religious in my early years to becoming scientific and nihilistic to believing in all this OBE stuff :D. That's all good and fine, but I'm not sure to what extent my subconscious has "gotten the memo" - I suspect I have fragments of my different stages of belief floating around in there like driftwood. In any case, I know my belief system needs work.

Andy

[CFTraveler]

That's true for all of us, no matter what we think we believe.

[Jaco]

but the problem is I'm not sure what my belief system is anymore because I've changed my mind about the world several times - I've gone from being religious in my early years to becoming scientific and nihilistic to believing in all this OBE stuff :D. That's all good and fine, but I'm not sure to what extent my subconscious has "gotten the memo" - I suspect I have fragments of my different stages of belief floating around in there like driftwood. In any case, I know my belief system needs work.

Andy
Maybe it will be easier for you if you switch from "I need a right/good belief system" to "I don't really need a belief system". :)
You don't have to believe in anything. You don't have to believe in something just because you feel you need to have something to believe in.
Experience, observe, draw careful conclusions. Always accept that you might be wrong or biased.
Listen to experiences, observations and conclusions of other people. Always accept that they might be wrong or biased.
There is no need to build an artificial "I believe" bubble in a place where truthful "I don't really know" is sufficient.
Big picture might not be even possible to see.
:)

[sdbl731]

Jaco, I totally see where you're coming from (and what you say makes a lot of sense :D) - but is there even such thing as "no belief system"? You're assuming that people's belief systems are a lot easier to manipulate than they actually are. It's not as easy as saying "I don't believe in this" and then, poof, the belief is gone. From what I've heard and seen, you need to use affirmations or examine / rearrange your belief system in trance, or something along those lines, in order to actually change your belief system. I think it was Palehorse who was talking about his methods for destroying one's belief system - he said something like "imagine that your belief is a building, and then blow it up with TNT", while warning to use this method judiciously.

Trust me, I *want* to destroy my belief system and start clean, but I know it takes time and effort to do so (and lately, between being sick, busy with college applications, and busy with school, I just haven't had the time or motivation to work on this).

What you're proposing is actually where I want to end up - believing in using something like the Scientific Method to analyze and categorize life experiences, and deferring judgment on something until I get the chance to experience it. But I figure it's a long road to that destination...

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I guess it's not a destination, but just another starting point.

Andy

[Jaco]

I never said it was easy or quick :D
Somewhere along the way I stopped being afraid of "not believing in the "right" things".

Maybe you should determine what are you afraid of. What fears are associated with your beliefs. Observe your emotions. Go deep.
When something restrains us it means we are afraid of something.

Good luck :)

[sdbl731]

Somewhere along the way I stopped being afraid of "not believing in the "right" things".
I'm not trying to believe in the "right" things - just the things that won't interfere with further spiritual development. Who knows, though - subconsciously there may be a whole different story I'm not aware of.

Maybe you should determine what are you afraid of. What fears are associated with your beliefs. Observe your emotions. Go deep.
When something restrains us it means we are afraid of something.

Good luck :)
Thanks - that is definitely sound advice that I intend to follow (when I get around to it, of course :D).

Andy

[Korpo]

Trust me, I *want* to destroy my belief system and start clean

I have been wondering about what effects the connotations of words they use to describe their intentions. Is it really wise to use words as "destroy", do you think? I mean, this is referring to parts of you. Your belief system might do a job of protecting you right now - keeping in check things with your reality filter that might be too much. I think we can remove pieces one at a time and have wonderful experiences, and grow, and do it again, but "destroy"? Sounds like a guy with an axe. ;)

Oliver

[Hastor]

a summary, for your convenience, is that a belief system can be compared to the story of the three blind men and the
elephant. one man feels the trunk and calls it a snake, while another feels the tusk and calls it a spear, while the last
feels one of the legs and calls it a tree. What it comes down to is that all men were right within their own perspectives.
If this isnt in-depth enough i have taken the time to fully explain about a line or so down. Just be careful because it is
a lot to read. If you dont feel like reading just skip to the last little bit.

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It seems to me that for many years, people have been somewhat confused about what a belief system is.
In truth, the best way to describe a belief system is as a view of reality. Unfortunatly, no matter how hard
we try, the pure and simple truth is that, as a human being, it is impossible to fully concieve the "truth"
that is reality. The coping mechanism for this is the belief system.

This nifty little invention allows billions of people to understand other's view on life and take into account each other's
point of view. The confusion comes in when people go off and start calling these "views" religon. Religon, on most occasions,
states openly a correct view and an incorrect view of reality and upholds the infallibility of said religon's view.

A belief systm in its purest form is quite malliable and shifts and changes. This allows for there to be a shifting view of reality
and a steadily correcting view of the way life is. Religon can be characterized by what IS wrong and what IS right while a belief
system only assumes and idea percieved from an individual view.

What it comes down to is that all people see through a glass darkly. This view is what becomes that individual's reality.
This equllibrium of incorrect information comes down to three truths that are possibilities but do not allow for the
existance of the other two if upheld.

1) The only truth is held by the individual. This upholds that the truth behind reality can only be achieved by one point of view, the same way
that the only real truth is the existance of one's self.

2) The only truth is held by the masses. This upholds that the truth behind reality can only be achieved by many differant points of view, the same
way that an apple can only be fully understood if looked at form all angles and precieved as 3 dimensional.

3) The only truth can be held by an individual able to understand all points of perception.

To answer the problem, it is impossible to destroy a belief system as much as it is to cease to have a perception. What
is possible is the careful shifting from one view to another. This allows for a malliable view of reality which
, under the right conditions, can adapt and move slowly towards a realization of The Truth.

I hoped this helped, if it doesn't you can ask me or ignore what ive said. It just feels better to have finally contributed to this
conversation about belief. Thank you. :D

[Beekeeper]

Here's what I believe commonly happens. I was one of those children, as were my siblings and sons, who became aware of projections as a child. I remember as a child discussing with my brother and sister our projection experiences in kiddy terms so that we called it "the shaky bed thing", "the heart pounding madly thing", "the loud noises thing." I usually got frightened by these experiences as did my brother and sister as we experienced the dweller phenomenon as well. I do remember spontaneous projections and lucid dreams that I found exhilarating. I didn't know the various experiences were connected, so I actively sought to repeat one and avoid the other.

I have two sons. My 14 year old recently went through a series of projection events where he experienced the loud noises, the vibrations and the dweller. Even though I explained what this was, he felt frightened by it and asked for ways he could avoid it. My 11 year old, however, has projected out of dreams. He had a lucid dream just a few days ago where he was walking to school aware that the sun was about to explode. Suddenly, he thought that that was just silly and realised he was dreaming. Because his experiences have been pleasant rather than frightening, he welcomes them.

I wonder if the causes of projection experiences in the young are largely biological. Perhaps it's to do with sleeping patterns and hormones. I recently had a former student of about 15 or 16 years of age contact me because, like my eldest son, she'd experienced the noises and actually projected. She was afraid she was going crazy. It may be that some people are better able to recall their projections because of their particular sleeping patterns.

It is a frightening experience, even when you know what it signifies. The fear itself may become a hinderance to future projections. I

[sdbl731]

Is it really wise to use words as "destroy", do you think? I mean, this is referring to parts of you. Your belief system might do a job of protecting you right now - keeping in check things with your reality filter that might be too much. I think we can remove pieces one at a time and have wonderful experiences, and grow, and do it again, but "destroy"? Sounds like a guy with an axe.
I think you make a good point here - maybe "destroy" was too strong a word. But what do you suggest instead? What I intend to do is clear out all of the "debris" floating around in there - I'm not too concerned with what that process is called, but with how to do that effectively. I welcome any and all suggestions on how to clean house in my belief system.

A belief systm in its purest form is quite malliable and shifts and changes. This allows for there to be a shifting view of reality
and a steadily correcting view of the way life is.
That makes sense - but is there a convenient way to change your belief system consciously, i.e. examining it and seeing what it's made up of, and then throwing out stuff you don't want or tweaking it?

Religon can be characterized by what IS wrong and what IS right while a belief
system only assumes and idea percieved from an individual view.
What about belief systems initially built around religion (i.e. being brought up with some extent of religious dogma) - I've pretty much shunned the religious, Christian aspect of my belief system, but I figure it's still in there. As I said above, I've shifted my world-view several times, and it's probably still in flux at the moment. I guess what I want is some catharsis for my belief system, to clear out what is irrelevant to me now.

I hoped this helped, if it doesn't you can ask me or ignore what ive said. It just feels better to have finally contributed to this
conversation about belief. Thank you. :D
:D Sorry I hijacked the thread... we're all glad you contributed!

Andy

[Hastor]

Religon can be characterized by what IS wrong and what IS right while a belief
system only assumes and idea percieved from an individual view.
What about belief systems initially built around religion (i.e. being brought up with some extent of religious dogma) - I've pretty much shunned the religious, Christian aspect of my belief system, but I figure it's still in there. As I said above, I've shifted my world-view several times, and it's probably still in flux at the moment. I guess what I want is some catharsis for my belief system, to clear out what is irrelevant to me now.

Belief systems built around a religous billpost are usually done so because said religon was a large part of their lives and came to represent a part of their reality. I know this will sound bleak, but the truth is that all the things you heard as a child will remain with you for the rest of your life and will continue to influence you. I wish it were possible to simply "will" this aspect out of the equation but at this point it comes down to simple influential psychology. What this means is that your upbringing will always be a part of you no matter what you try.

My answer for this, sadly, can only be related to a math problem.Think of your perception of an event as an equation involving variables, with variables being your ideas. Once you look at an event, calculate your perception the way you always do and then go back and replace the variables with differant ones.

The best advice, I think, is to keep an open mind and let knowledge flow through it daily. This stops your perception from becoming stanent. In my opinion, the best direct course of action is to meditate on what you know and start each day as if it is your first.

"We live only one real day, during which we recall false memories of living many more"-A Lesson is Learned but the Damage is Irreversible

Hope this helps.

[Hastor]

Here's what I believe commonly happens. I was one of those children, as were my siblings and sons, who became aware of projections as a child. I remember as a child discussing with my brother and sister our projection experiences in kiddy terms so that we called it "the shaky bed thing", "the heart pounding madly thing", "the loud noises thing." I usually got frightened by these experiences as did my brother and sister as we experienced the dweller phenomenon as well. I do remember spontaneous projections and lucid dreams that I found exhilarating. I didn't know the various experiences were connected, so I actively sought to repeat one and avoid the other.

I have two sons. My 14 year old recently went through a series of projection events where he experienced the loud noises, the vibrations and the dweller. Even though I explained what this was, he felt frightened by it and asked for ways he could avoid it. My 11 year old, however, has projected out of dreams. He had a lucid dream just a few days ago where he was walking to school aware that the sun was about to explode. Suddenly, he thought that that was just silly and realised he was dreaming. Because his experiences have been pleasant rather than frightening, he welcomes them.

I wonder if the causes of projection experiences in the young are largely biological. Perhaps it's to do with sleeping patterns and hormones. I recently had a former student of about 15 or 16 years of age contact me because, like my eldest son, she'd experienced the noises and actually projected. She was afraid she was going crazy. It may be that some people are better able to recall their projections because of their particular sleeping patterns.


From what you say it sounds like there might be psychologiacl hinderances placed upon those who project with negative results as a child. If this is true then it would be logical to assume that, like many things in life, a traumatic event during a biologically developmental satge can have a negative affect on any such events latter on in life. This would explain a natural hesitance when it comes to projection.

Thank you very much for your input. :D

[ButterflyWoman]

On the subject of beliefs, "I don't need a belief system" is a belief. It's almost certainly impossible, in material and human terms, to have NO beliefs. You almost certainly believe that the earth rotates, and that it orbits the sun. You almost certainly believe that if you drop something, it will fall. These are beliefs. I know people will say they're "facts", but if you can sincerely believe, for example, that gravity has no effect on you, you can walk on water...

Beliefs are just thoughts that we think over and over until they become persistent habit. You can change them, for sure, and break those habitual thinking patterns, but try going through life without thinking, or try not thinking the same thoughts more than once. Get my drift? We all have beliefs, but we can choose them, and make them things that work for us rather than hindering us.

Note that I am NOT talking about religious indoctrination (though those kinds of beliefs can certainly be something that needs overhaul) or political leanings or philosophy. I'm talking about the nuts and bolts of everyday life in the material world, when the interface for this world is a human mind which is in the habit of thinking.

Think what you want, believe what you want, definitely. But think nothing? Believe nothing? I think not... ;)

[sdbl731]

but is there even such thing as "no belief system"?

On the subject of beliefs, "I don't need a belief system" is a belief. It's almost certainly impossible, in material and human terms, to have NO beliefs.
Looks like we're on the same page :D but seriously, you did a much better job of explaining it... :)

Beliefs are just thoughts that we think over and over until they become persistent habit. You can change them, for sure, and break those habitual thinking patterns, but try going through life without thinking, or try not thinking the same thoughts more than once. Get my drift? We all have beliefs, but we can choose them, and make them things that work for us rather than hindering us.
I 100% agree with you on this - not believing in anything IS believing; funny how that all works, eh? :D

Cheers,
Andy

[Jaco]

Having or not having a belief system is not the same as needing to have or not to have a belief system. :)

[sdbl731]

Having or not having a belief system is not the same as needing to have or not to have a belief system. :)
Well, that depends. If it is impossible to not have a belief system, then perhaps there is a need to have one, whether the need is acknowledged or not. :wink:

Andy

[Jaco]

Well, that depends. If it is impossible to not have a belief system, then perhaps there is a need to have one, whether the need is acknowledged or not. :wink:
No, not really :)

[sdbl731]

Here is the initial assumption - everyone has some sort of belief system, whether it consists of a complex framework of ideas and experiences or just a couple of methods of perception used to approach the world. I realize that the word "system" suggests something more than just a few basic assumptions / ways of looking at things, but it doesn't have to if you don't want it to.

OK, so, if everyone has a belief system, no matter how complicated or rudimentary, then an interesting question that arises is "why?"

the best way to describe a belief system is as a view of reality. Unfortunatly, no matter how hard
we try, the pure and simple truth is that, as a human being, it is impossible to fully concieve the "truth"
that is reality. The coping mechanism for this is the belief system.

This nifty little invention allows billions of people to understand other's view on life and take into account each other's
point of view.
If what Hastor said is true (and I think it is true and very perceptive), then there is a fundamental need for us as humans to have the "coping mechanism" that we call a "belief system". This isn't a "need" in the sense of a conscious want - this is a need that we may or may not be aware of.

This need is distinct from what we think we "need" to have in our belief systems - I believe this is the point we're getting hung up on. When you (impersonal "you" :wink:) consciously think "I need a belief system that is in good working order", it's not as if you're suddenly trying to conjure up a belief system out of nothing - you're just becoming aware of / attuned to the fact that you have a belief system working in the background, influencing your perception of the world. Thus, any desire to change beliefs affects / targets the belief system that is already there. The magnitude and direction of the changes you want to make, coupled with the necessary effort to make these changes "sink in" to your subconscious, will affect the extent to which your belief system actually undergoes change.

Of course, I'm discussing this from a hypothetical perspective, since I have little to no experience actually "going in" and changing stuff around in my belief system. I have, however, reached the point that I'm aware of my belief system as an entity (if not of what beliefs it actually consists of).

Andy

[Hastor]

Very well said Andy.

[ButterflyWoman]

When you (impersonal "you" :wink:) consciously think "I need a belief system that is in good working order", it's not as if you're suddenly trying to conjure up a belief system out of nothing - you're just becoming aware of / attuned to the fact that you have a belief system working in the background, influencing your perception of the world.
Yes, exactly. Perfectly stated. And, in fact, I have observed that it goes beyond simply your perception of the world. I have experienced for myself that what you believe actually alters your world, in many material ways both subtle and obvious.

This is why Robert notes that it's important to have a "clean out" of your beliefs, and get rid of the stuff that doesn't serve you. You actually affect the world you experience because of what you believe.

At least, that's what I believe, and guess what? When I started to believe that, it became obviously true. Funny about that, eh? ;)

[sdbl731]

This is why Robert notes that it's important to have a "clean out" of your beliefs, and get rid of the stuff that doesn't serve you.
That's exactly what I'm planning on doing :D when I get around to it, of course :wink:.

Andy