May I introduce the highest Buddist practice?

[alwayson4]

The description of this kundalini subforum says something to the effect of 'advanced energy practice'.

So I thought I would post this highest buddist practice here:

It is called thogal.

It is based on the NOW. There are only two books in english that contain information on practice. One is "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" The other is "The Dalai Lama's Secret Temple"

Basically, what you want to do, is stare, in an asana of your choice at the clear blue sky. Obviously this practice is therefore weather dependent. Rainbows will appear. Continue staring at the rainbows. Stay in stillness.

Result of practice is the highest attainment, the rainbow body also known as the ja lus. Please google these terms.

There are two types of rainbow body. One is the regular rainbow body. The other is the rainbow body of Great Transfer. To obtain the rainbow body of Great Transfer, I will go over in a later post.

When you stare at the blue sky, do not get confused by the entoptic effects:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entoptic_phenomenon

Basically the rainbows are spontaneously occurring in the NOW.

The rainbow body in buddism is a verified phenomenon. Every couple of years, comes another report of a practitioner's body shrinking to the size of a baby, carried around by the villagers, and then finally disappearing. (This type of rainbow body is the one obtained at "death". The Great Transfer light body is obtained while "alive" and without a corpse shrinking). I believe the benedictine monks are studying it right now, because it is Christ-like.

The buddists have several levels of attainment/realization. It starts at a low-level samadhi, then to kundalini types of realizations, all the way to the rainbow body. The rainbow body is the ultimate of ultimates, especially the type achieved before death. Thogal means "leapover" in Tibetan. Thogal skips all intermediate steps, and goes right to the end goal, the rainbow body.

I will reiterate again, the seed of the rainbow body is the NOW.

Also, for further clarification, even though the body is called the rainbow body, the practitioner in the end will NOT look like a bunch of rainbows. He will look like he always does, but when you touch him, your hand will go right through him! He does not cast a shadow. He can appear in any form. He has no limits, and can appear in any heaven or hell or astral plane. He has full knowledge, and reached the point of "no more learning"

What is crucial to understand, is that the physical brain limits our knowledge. When the body converts back to the 5 elements (the same 5 elements in hinduism, Bardon etc with the same names) represented by the colors of the rainbows, AUTOMATICALLY all obstructions to knowledge is removed.

You cannot gain full knowledge in the physical body! It is impossible. It just not compatibile with the higher reality. You can gain "a lot" admittedly through kundalini, but not full.

When you stare at the rainbows,certain energy body channels are automatically used (please refer to the books I mentioned). SO therefore this qualifies as an advanced energy body practice, and therefore belongs in this subforum.

There are aspects of thogal, such as staring at the moon at night, and meditating in total darkness, so please refer to the above books, I can't type out all the info.

[Tom]

It doesn't work as well without being preceded by Trekchod, "cutting through", which reduces attachment and increases concentration. Without this preliminary, the appearances of rainbows in your vision can actually get in the way of further practice due to attachment to actually getting results. As for the rainbow body, this refers to dissolving the elements back into light so that only the hair and nails remain - the tissues that are not living. This can happen prior to death, but it usually happens immediately after. There are tests to determine if the hair and nails were left behind because of this process or if it was faked. Attaining the rainbow body also means that the person has become an actual Buddha.

[alwayson4]

The criteria for thogal, is only to be in the natural state according to "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya", written by someone who actually attained the rainbow body. If you have significant experience with the natural state/the NOW, you may practice thogal. Trekchod is relaxing your mind and body into the Now...thats all that it is about. There is Tibetan term for the NOW, which is associated with thogal, lhun grub....which means "spontaneous presence". In fact the proper term is lhun grub thogal.....which means leapover (to Buddahood) in the NOW.

Also the rainbow body you described is the one obtained at death. The Great Transference rainbow body occurs without death or corpse shrinkage.

[Jaco]

The rainbow body in buddism is a verified phenomenon. Every couple of years, comes another report of a practitioner's body shrinking to the size of a baby, carried around by the villagers, and then finally disappearing.

He will look like he always does, but when you touch him, your hand will go right through him! He does not cast a shadow. He can appear in any form.

:?

[alwayson4]

Without this preliminary, the appearances of rainbows in your vision can actually get in the way of further practice due to attachment to actually getting results.


You are 100% correct here. This entire thread is directed towards only to the few here who have realized the natural state.

You need to have prior experience with the natural state, which means non-attachment among other properties.


If you do not have experience with the natural state, you can not practice this. The mind is Buddha, not the sky. (P.S. When I say mind, I am not talking about useless mental chatter)

[alwayson4]

I will mention a couple of stories of the light body, off the top of my head.

My favorite one, is the king in tibet trying to hug Padmasambava, and he went right through him. Padmasambava chose to remain visible to humans, as have others, to teach.

There was account of a man very recently, who acquired light body at "death" (obviously there is no death, the practitioner becomes immortal). His whole family thought he was a regular man. He used to spend all his time outside in the fields (obviously he was practicing thogal). His only request was that his body be left untouched for a couple of weeks after he dies. Upon his death, his body gradually disappeared from view. Everyone now realizes he was a supreme practitioner. This account is awesome, because the man led a family life, had children, yet attained light body. I think most of the time, ordained monks obtain the light body.

[orygbus]

do these books go into depth on how it is done? How long does it usual take to achieve the rainbow body?

[amazingjourney]

I haven't got into reading about these, but my first reaction, and maybe I have missed out something important, was that it only speaks about our body. What about our consciousness? If someone who go in with no prior spiritual awareness and all he does is following the staring of the rainbow, and then achieve the rainbow body (or can he?) , what about his consciousness? Does it automatically raise to the high consciousness of the divine?
I assume there are prerequisites before this practice?

[alwayson4]

I have already talked about the major prerequistes.

If you are not familiar with the natural state/the NOW at the intimate level, you are wasting your time if you practice this.

Secondly,everything is already divine/perfect. If you cannot see that, you have not rested in yourself yet.

Third, full omniscience/knowledge automatically comes when you you bypass the physical brain.

[Korpo]

Third, full omniscience/knowledge automatically comes when you you bypass the physical brain.

So, why did you have to read a book if you did reach that state?

Oliver

[alwayson4]

Um, you dont need to read any books, once you have the light body i.e. have bypassed physicality


Thus the light body is also known as the stage of "No More Learning"

I never claimed to have the light body lolll

[alwayson4]

By the way, month long or longer total dark retreats and sungazing are also parts of thogal practice

[Aunt Clair]

Perhaps , like with other patterns of development in the human energy body , the rainbow begins in smaller areas of the body preshadowing the rainbow body .

Certainly the chakras are jewel toned centres in rainbow order ; red , orange , yellow , green , blue , indigo , violet .

And tiny chakras of rainbow colours manifest on the bridge and heel of the hands and on the ball and heels of the feet .The stones are rainbow coloured too but in a spiral rather than a linear pattern ascending in this order
red earth stone of the belly
orange star stone behind it
yellow sunstone at the chest
aqua green mother stone behind the shoulders
blue moon stone of the head
purple universal mind stone behind the head

So the average human is rainbow coloured at birth inside the spine of the energy body and they become more rainbow coloured with development lighting up the stones , the limbs and the phalanges et cetera .

[alwayson4]

I have been trying to figure out how this works.

I do not buy the official explanation about a crystal light "nerve" somehow connecting the eye balls to the heart energy center


Instead, I see that is has to do with auric vision. This is all speculation from this point....but here I go.

If you stare into the cloudless sky, you will see a neon blue band separating, the sky from the earth. This same color appears around us as the human aura. It is also the same color you see if you do the following:

Enter a meditative state.

Stand up, and go to a pitch black room. Wave your fingers in front of you. You will see a collection of blue pinpoints.


Now in the final stages of thogal, the practioner comes face to face with the following situation. And I quote from the "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya"...."the practitioner looks at his fingers on the hands, he or she sees all the fingers wrapped up with lights...."


Sounds like some sort of auric/clairvoyant phenomenon to me.


By the way since I like everyone here, HERE IS A FREE COPY OF "HEART DROPS OF DHARMAKAYA"!!! :D :shock: 8)

http://www.esnips.com/doc/1f5c413e-2880 ... -Tradition (http://www.esnips.com/doc/1f5c413e-2880-4ceb-9cc2-d40175afdebe/Shardza-Tashi-Gyaltsen---Heart-Drops-of-Dharmakaya-(Dzogchen-Practice-of-the-Bon-Tradition))


You can download a permanent pdf copy to your computer via the download link!

[0range]

I haven't got into reading about these, but my first reaction, and maybe I have missed out something important, was that it only speaks about our body. What about our consciousness? If someone who go in with no prior spiritual awareness and all he does is following the staring of the rainbow, and then achieve the rainbow body (or can he?) , what about his consciousness? Does it automatically raise to the high consciousness of the divine?
I assume there are prerequisites before this practice?
hello sir

your queston is complicated, only a verified teacher of the dharma can truly answer it but I can try my best.

by "body" this does not talk about the physical body at all, by light body it actually IS consciousness, pure consciousness,

and there is no raising of consciousness to the divine. the divine is here, now, ever-present. buddhism is about taking away, not raising or gaining anything, its like a really powerful laser that you point in the right direction (with the right view and the right teacher) and then it burns away ignorance until all that remains is the pure natural state, or light body, or Dharmakaya, or emptiness, or God, whatever you want to call it. these are all just words and concepts.. ideas. ideas can not bring you to the truth, truth is beyond ideas and words.

the methods of buddhism are ment to show you the natural, pure, and true state of consciousness.



yes, there are prerequisites. these are meant to eliminate selfish point of view and put you on the right path to finding your true nature. you can walk for eternity but unless you are walking in the right direction you will not find the destination.

you must develop bodhichitta (compassion for all beings) and understanding of emptiness (non-duality), dependent origination (interconnectedness), and no-self (no individual, seperate, permanent self exists). everything is compounded, connected, and dependent.

this is Buddhism 101, you gotta have the foundation first before you build the house. its all about having the Right View. this enables you to go beyond concepts, desires, and delusions. if you don't have the right view it doesn't matter what you do, you will still be in delusion. an example is how everyone wants to have an out of body experience only for selfish reasons and with the wrong view (that they are a separate and ultimately real individual, and that whatever you encounter is real) as a result many people only fall further into delusion because they think that they have discovered some new frontier with more individual and existing 'entities' and that all these mythological beings are real. this is very exciting for the deluded ego. anyone with an understanding of buddhism will see how this is false since the wrong view only spirals you further into samsara and suffering.

by the way, a really important point that was missed here is that the practice mentioned is part of the Dzogchen path of the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism. but all 4 schools have the higher teachings, the other schools have Mahamudra, which has different methods but the result is the same. the path is completely dependent on a student-teacher relationship, you can not learn Dzogchen through books. the reason is that the teacher 'opens you up' to your primordial natural state, and once you have recognized it, you find it again through such practices as thogal. so find a teacher. the teacher literally directly introduces you to your true and purest nature. how great is that?

Also nobody starts out with Thogal, this is an extremely advanced practice. it's like giving a fighter jet to a 5 year old. There is a retreat center in upstate NY that has a 7 year program (one month per summer) where you learn Dzogchen. the site is here http://retreat.palyul.org/ the first 3 years are dedicated to preliminary practices.

you start off with ngondro which are prostrations (kills pride and inspires motivation and devotion) and visualizations connecting you to your teacher and purifying you of psychological imbalances. then you do Tummo (fierce woman) which is inner heat yoga, similar to Kundalini. the realizaton here is the union of emptiness and bliss, and further purification. only after do you learn Trekchod and Thogal, the practices of Dzogchen. its a commitment but well worth it. personally I find the tibetan path to be the most advanced and complete out there, and with the least risk of falling off the path

[Korpo]

but anyone with an understanding of buddhism will see how this is false since . the wrong view only spirals you further into samsara and suffering.

If you assume Buddhism got it perfectly right and no other view exists.

Oliver

[0range]

hi Korpo

all wisdom traditions point to the same non-dual truth, Buddhism just explains it better in my experience. check out the works of Ken Wilber, he's done a great job in researching all traditions and showing what they all have in common. the three state of consciousness gross (physical), subtle (astral,OBE), causal (formless) but it is the non-dual or 4th state that pervades all 3 and unless you have knowledge of this 4th state and understand that is your true nature, you can get easily sucked in to the 3 states and claim them as your home.

[Korpo]

In my experience Buddhism as a belief system and system of techniques has advantages and disadvantages as any other belief system. If you want, you can define its singlemindedness, its focus on a singular goal, as advantage.

Then again, I found as many ego-bound practitioners in Buddhism so far as I would expect in other traditions. There are many traps in Buddhism, too, and if I would try to find a reason why this is so it is possibly the intellectual appeal of its doctrine. I found this attracts many people who practice the word and only the word of Buddhism, an intellectual Buddhism, and supposedly (who knows in the end?) going nowhere soon, as they get trapped in a mental sphere just as much as anyone else, but this time enabled by Buddhist doctrine.

In the end I believe that Buddhism as any other religion, doctrine, spiritual idea or inspiration does good and harm, but more good than harm. ;) Then again, I believe there is massive evolutionary potential in astral projection just the same, if one has the intent to do so. It is not more ego-bound than other approaches. There is a rare few who actually sit down for their first meditation and have non-egoic motives.

Oliver

[alwayson4]

alwayson,


there is a good communty here that might interest you
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/


do you have a Dzogchen teacher that you correspond with? where do you live?



You cannot talk about secret practices on that forum. They banned my IP address because of this :shock:

There are no Dzogchen teachers where I live.

[Tom]

There are something like 9 separate levels of Buddhism, from the Theravada / Hinayana all the way up to Dzogchen. They use many of the same terms, but they define those terms differently at each level. Bodhichitta is one of those terms that has caused me the most confusion. At the Mahayana Buddhism level it refers to the desire to obtain Buddhahood for the purpose of liberating all sentient (having sense-perception) beings. At the Vajrayana level, Bodhichitta can actually refer to Kundalini in the form of "drops" of energy flowing through the channels of the energy body - and some author really confused me by saying that although Bodhichitta is vital to attaining Buddhahood, without the proper preparation Bodhichitta can kill the practitioner. At the Dzogchen level, there is a tendency to define the term Bodhichitta in terms of what it literally means - Bodhi, meaning wisdom or enlightenment, combined with chitta, meaning mind-stuff. Your Bodhichitta is the core of your being which is already enlightened and cannot be trapped in Samsara. Activating Bodhichitta in this case is connecting with that basic level of sanity and allowing it to act on your entire being. You can argue that it isn't really necessary to activate or generate Bodhichitta from the point of view of this level, because an interest in doing so means that your Bodhichitta is already active and working through you. From a Christian point of view, you might refer to it as having Christ or the Holy Spirit in your heart, working through you. Jesus has often been quoted as saying that the Kingdom of God is within each of us. In any case, once you have identified the part of you which has always been sane, centered, and grounded, the important thing is to keep coming back to this until the habit is firmly established.

[alwayson4]

Bodhichitta is for AFTER you have direct experience into emptiness.

Once you KNOW there is no absolute self, you kind of lose all motivation.....thats when bodhichitta comes into play.

Using the bodhichitta, you fuel yourself towards Buddhahood via either kundalini (mahamudra completion stage) or thogal or both.

[0range]

alwayson,

please cite a valid teacher that says bodhichitta is only for after you have direct experience of emptiness

[Tom]

alwayson,

please cite a valid teacher that says bodhichitta is only for after you have direct experience of emptiness

There are two levels of Bodhichitta, relative and absolute. Relative Bodhichitta is the one that wants to obtain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings. Absolute Bodhichitta is where Emptiness shows that truly there are no sentient beings there to lead to Enlightenment. In order to have Absolute Bodhichitta it is necessary to perceive Emptiness.

[CFTraveler]

I consider Tom to be a valid source, for whatever it's worth.

[alwayson4]

Back to my speculation....

It seems to me, that thogal is about seeing into the regular blue human aura, and dividing it out into the rainbow spectrum.

This is just my speculation....


I hope everyone reads the third chapter of that book I gave ya, and gives me their opinion. The topic of thogal keeps me awake sometimes :shock:

[Tom]

The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche
(C) 1992 by Rigpa Fellowship
HarperSanFrancisco
ISBN 0-06-250793-1

p.167

Only when the master has determined that you have a thorough grounding in the practice of Trekchö will he or she introduce you to the advanced practice of Tögal. The Tögal practitioner works directly with the Clear Light that dwells inherently, "spontaneously present," within all phenomena, using specific and exceptionally powerful exercises to reveal it within himself or herself.

Tögal has a quality of instantaneousness, of immediate realization. Instead of traveling over a range of mountains to reach a distank peak, the Tögal approach would be to leap there in one bound. The effect of Tögal is to enable a person to actualize all the different aspects of enlightenment within themselves in one lifetime.(7) Therefore it is regarded as the extraordinary, unique method of Dzogchen; whereas Trekchö is its wisdom, Tögal is its skillful means. It requires enormous discipline, and is generally practiced in a retreat environment.

p. 398

(7) Through the practice of Tögal, an accomplished practitioner can realize the three kayas in one lifetime (see chapter 21, "The Universal Process"). This is the Fruition of Dzogchen.

[0range]

yup Tom,

what i was getting to was the relative bodhichitta, which is necessary as a foundation. there's no point in even speculating about advanced practices when the right aim isn't there. i.e. let's mentally masturbate over ideas and concepts.

The Words of My Perfect Teacher by Patrul Rinpoche p219

"Both the intention and application aspects are relative bodhicitta. Through traning for a long time in relative bodhicitta on the paths of accumulating and joining, you come at last to the path of seeing, where you have the real experience of thusness, the natural state of all things. This is the wisdom beyond all elaboration, the truth of emptiness. At that time you arouse absolute bodhicitta."

[alwayson4]

Some people here....cough...me...have experienced both types of bodhichitta.

I also practice thogal as much as I can.

[Korpo]

Moderation Notice

0range, I removed your post. It was too way over the top rude to stay here. This is an official warning.

Given your past conduct towards others, I was actually betting you would post something like you did.

Oliver

[alwayson4]

Has everyone tried looking at their hands in the dark?

An easy way I have found, is wake up in the middle of the night, walk into a pitch black closet, and then wave your fingers in front of your face.

Sleeping partially is an easy way of getting into a psychic state.

If you do this, you will see pinpoints of blue light representing your fingers :D

It really is a cool thing and may be related to this whole thogal thing.

[ButterflyWoman]

Has everyone tried looking at their hands in the dark?
One of my earliest memories is of lying in my crib (cot) and holding up my hand in the dark to look at it. I don't remember what I saw, but I remember thinking, in the way that not-quite-awake brains think, that it was funny that I could see it in the dark.

[CFTraveler]

Has everyone tried looking at their hands in the dark?

An easy way I have found, is wake up in the middle of the night, walk into a pitch black closet, and then wave your fingers in front of your face.

Sleeping partially is an easy way of getting into a psychic state.

If you do this, you will see pinpoints of blue light representing your fingers :D

It really is a cool thing and may be related to this whole thogal thing. Now you know I'm going to do this.

[alwayson4]

I cannot claim credit for this..

I learned this from RB's aura tutorials.

[star]

These talks always get too intellectual or inepth for me to follow. Alwayson4 im glad you posted that nighttime tech, sounds interesting, fun even.

[Tom]

For the record, Tögal does not have its basis in the etheric aura.

[alwayson4]

True, that is only my theory :shock:

But as I study more, I am starting to believe the real explanation about light channels connecting the eyes to the heart chakra.

Either way, thogal works.

[alwayson4]

Has anyone had experience with this?

I am pretty sure this has to do with thogal

http://www.aypsite.org/92.html

[Tom]

The connection to Kriya Yoga is clear in my mind, but I don't see what it has to do with Tögal.

[alwayson4]

Thogal has to do with certain crystal light channels such as the infamous "kati" channel. This kati channel is the basis for the rainbows being seen.

It seems very clear to me the spirtual star of Hindu yoga is the same "crystal" channel.

The similarities continue. Both thogal and the star both may require pressure on the eyes and breath retention to get going.

Both thogal and the star are pinnacles of Buddist and Hindu yogas respectively.

[alwayson4]

I said earlier that sungazing is part of thogal practice.

I should really clarify.

You do not stare into the sun. Ever.

You squint into the RAYS of the sun or moon or even a candle, well below or above the source.

Also it is said you should have some shade overhead, so you do not overheat.


This practice with light is actually thogal proper

Staring into a blue sky, as I described earlier, is technically more of a preliminary...

[alwayson4]

Correct view is also important for thogal.

If anyone practices thogal, they must be open to the view of dependent arising, otherwise you will not obtain the rainbow body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da

This does NOT mean that you need to have personal direct experience with emptiness, because such a thing occurs only after the third vision of thogal.

You merely have to be aware of the teaching, and stop grasping for an absolute like Brahman.


P.S. I thought I had direct experience with emptiness, but apparently I do not. What I experienced was something called inferred emptiness. You do not gain real personal experience with emptiness until you are close to rainbow body...atleast this is my current understanding.

[Tom]

There are 9 levels of Buddhism from Hinayana all the way up to Dzogchen and each has a different explanation of what it means to directly perceive emptiness (of inherent existence). All of them require the level of concentration known as the first jhana, or at minimum, access concentration to begin. In order to enter the Mahayana it is necessary to have jhana, in that relative bodhichitta has jhana for its basis. In order to work within the Hinayana it is still necessary to have jhana as a basis for vipassana. Strangely, it is unusual in Buddhism to cultivate jhana even though it can be done in one year or less of intensive effort and with binaurals it is easier than ever. The biggest two tricks are simply putting in the time and avoiding the trap of falling into laxity / lethargy - it is not quite sleepiness or drowsiness, but it is related to them. Jhana requires holding an object of meditation in the mind. If the object is held too tightly, it leads to scattering - the mind rushing from distraction to distraction to distraction. The mind has to enjoy the object enough to stay with it. If it is being forced to hold the object too tightly, it will try to jump to pleasant distractions with things it prefers or it will jump to objects of dislike and aversion. At the same time the mind can't be allowed to hold the object too loosely and this is much harder to recognize because it sneaks up gradually. When you are thinking about what you are going to eat for dinner later on you know you are not meditating anymore, but when the object is still your main point of awareness and it is just a bit out of focus so to speak you will still think you are doing fine. The trouble is that the dullness of mind that builds up is pleasant and it does seem like good meditation is going on. It is an easy habit to allow to become established and it can take a great deal of time and effort to break the habit. When the mind has reached the point where it can continuously hold the object and the balance between too much concentration and too much relaxation has been perfected, it is necessary to stop trying so hard. Meditation must become effortless, in that the tricks used to counter the obstacles are themselves obstacles to your meditation and they must be dropped. When you have reached the point where effort has been dropped, and your meditation can continue on its own, you have reached access concentration. It is called access concentration because the obstacles have been suppressed and you are within reach of jhana. When jhana is reached you can't miss it - the moment of entering jhana is often such a shock that it breaks your concentration. The object comes into great focus and the pleasant sensation of being in meditation greatly intensifies. It takes some getting used to, but when you get to the point where it does not break your concentration you can begin to work on adding in vipassana, or investigation of the object. The movements of the mind where the object is examined will break your concentration. Basically, you think about something until you get a feel for it - just a feeling that you can then focus your concentration on, and it will gradually fade. Then go back to thinking about it to build up that quality of feeling and then focus on it until it fades. If you are working with emptiness of inherent existence, you will have memorized several of its main qualities. Several years of study are typically involved in the process of learning intellectually what emptiness means and what the main consequences of its existence are, so as to be able to quickly and easily generate a feeling for it so that it is possible to focus on the feeling of emptiness of inherent existence as a basis for entering jhana. Usually the breath is used as an object to initially gain jhana and then, when coming out of jhana, the "five hindrances" remain suppressed for a while. The mind is then turned toward emptiness as an object using the level of concentration which was developed. When jhana is re-gained using emptiness as an object, at first it is the intellectual understanding of emptiness rather than its direct perception which is the object. This is cultivated and perfected until jhana can be reached directly on emptiness rather than going on the basis of another object first and then switching to emptiness. Investigation or vipassana itself leads to jhana rather than breaking it, which is when the second of the five "paths" is reached. Actual direct perception of emptiness is reached by gradually wearing down the obstacles to it, by continuing to study emptiness and by spending time in meditation. Just as you can't miss the transition from access concentration to jhana, you can't miss it when meditating about emptiness switches to the direct perception. It is a great leap forward in your practice. This is a fairly short "path" in that as soon as it is reached it transitions into the fourth "path", where continuing to work with it gradually wears down the obstacles in the mind to the full accomplishment of becoming a Buddha - the fifth and final "path", "no more learning". In Hinayana terms, the direct perception of emptiness is called seeing the three marks of existence directly: dissatisfaction, change, and absence of permanent unchanging "self"-ness. The way it is usually described makes it sound far more sinister than it really is. It is said that in Buddhism the idea of having a soul is denied, but this isn't actually the case. It could just as easily be said that there is no existence outside of God. Jesus described it that way instead. If you try to exist apart from God that is like a leaf or a branch trying to cut itself apart from the plant and living without being supplied water and minerals from the roots of the plant. In other words, there is only one existence and to live outside of existence is to fail to exist. The other objection in Buddhism is that as a living being, you must continue to grow and change over time. The idea of a soul that Buddha was trying to argue against was one where the soul is permanent and unchanging, moving from body to body the way we would change clothes from day to day. Finally, with the third mark of existence, if you are resisting having things be the way they are, it will be a constant strain on the back of your mind. It will carry the quality of dis-satisfaction, the actual meaning of the word "dukkha" which is often translated as "suffering". Much of the time things just seem like a good idea at the time and then they fail to be as rewarding as they seem like they should have been. So there you have the three marks. In the Hinayana, directly perceiving them rather than just having the intellectual understanding of them is referred to as becoming a "Stream Enterer". It is important to note that there is only one emptiness; the Hinayana and the Mahayana both experience the same thing, and simply describe it differently. It is the motivation of the practitioner that sets them apart. A practitioner of Kriya Yoga will also reach this experience and describe it as being One with God. At this point the Kriya Yogi will return to the experience as often as possible, just as in Buddhism the practitioner will return to this meditation again and again as much as possible to wear away the obstacles gradually that remain. Just having reached it once is enough to greatly weaken them.

[alwayson4]

If you read the writings of kriya yogins such as Lahiri Mahasaya, you will see at their core they were essentially Buddhist.

Atleast that is what I got out of the English translations here:

http://www.yoganiketan.net/

[Tom]

Kriya Yoga is the form I know best, especially "Autobiography of a Yogi". I wanted a system based on God to include.

Any other comments? Especially about jhana or emptiness?

The thing that makes emptiness so hard to see is that it is basically seeing a negative. You have to start by identifying what inherent existence would be, if it did exist. It isn't taught well. A lot of people are in a hurry to get past identifying inherent existence and they don't ever really work their way through it. It makes emptiness much easier to understand if you basically ignore emptiness and work the other side of the coin. People experience (falsely) inherent existence all the time. It is like asking a fish to find water. Once you really do it, though, you can start picking it apart and really make it a living experience rather than struggling to identify its absence as a theoretical idea.

[alwayson4]

I am not going to comment anymore on emptiness, because if you engage in thogal (you merely have to be aware of the teaching of dependent origination), you will gain the knowledge for yourself, so there is little need to expound anymore here.

Another key point I would like to make is that one does not gain the rainbow body.
Technically speaking, you lose physicality (and the karmas which caused your birth in the first place).

[Korpo]

When the mind has reached the point where it can continuously hold the object and the balance between too much concentration and too much relaxation has been perfected, it is necessary to stop trying so hard. Meditation must become effortless, in that the tricks used to counter the obstacles are themselves obstacles to your meditation and they must be dropped. When you have reached the point where effort has been dropped, and your meditation can continue on its own, you have reached access concentration. It is called access concentration because the obstacles have been suppressed and you are within reach of jhana.

Thank you, Tom. This was very helpful for me. :)

Oliver

[alwayson4]

jhana is fine and all that

But the issue is hard core bodhi (awakening).

There are different levels of bodhi from First Bhumi to the final bodhi of Buddhahood.

You cannot really do any of this unless you engage in kundalini (yes kundalini exists in buddism) OR thogal. Regular meditation will not get you bodhi unless you are a superior practitioner. And even if you are superior practitioner, you will proabably just get the first bodhi (out of 11).

Kundalini and thogal are two independent paths to the same goal, although many (most?) historical practitioners engaged in both. And always from the viewpoint of dependent origination.

Thogal is interesting, as it is supposed to take you directly to the last bodhi of Buddhahood. That is why thogal literally means "leapover."

However the thogal process has some stages in of itself so it gets wierd lol

The ideal situation would be someone who has raised kundalini many times RESPONSIBLY (by cleaning up their belief system, nurturing creativity, giving time for the energy body to adapt, engaging the Higher Self through affirmations etc etc) and engages in thogal.

But that does not mean you should wait to practice thogal.

[alwayson4]

I do not know if Robert reads this thread, but he would be a good candidate for thogal because he has greatly exceeded the minimum requirements for practice (one very specific one especially).

Robert are you out there? :D

[Korpo]

You may assume he is not.

If you want to get Robert's attention to something, write a question in Ask Robert. Don't forget to add a short and concise summary and add a link.

Oliver

[alwayson4]

ok thanks!

I do not want to bug him too much about thogal, as he has his own practices to do.

I may post at a much later time in the "Ask RB" section, and link back to this thread.

[Tom]

I'd like to practice Dzogchen, but I want to do it properly - under the direct guidance of an experienced Dzogchen teacher. There are a lot of ways for the practice to go wrong.

[FaithNoMore]

Thanks for that http://www.aypsite.org/92.html link. That's most clear explanation I've heard yet of what the star actually is. Almost brings a tear to my eye.

My guru has said that seeing the star when starting the yoni mudra practice can be due to past life practice and/or is to encourage the practitioner to persevere and continue on with the practice. After many years of practice they may see it more consistently and without need of the technique. The goal being when one has developed far enough, to endeavor to enter it, it being a symbol of your soul essence. I forget what the name/level of that samadhi is, but If I recall correctly I don't think he said it was the final one, but a very high realize state.

As per the two exercises(skygazing and the hand exercise), they seem quite like clairvoyance exercises. Staring at anything for a period of time(depends on practice) with a fixed gaze and unblinking makes your peripheral vision grows darker and creates a sort of tunnel vision. At first seemed like a normal physiological effect, but then I noticed a pale blue color on the edges as it moved in and over time(months) it became purple. This can be done with the eyes closed as well. It worked quickest on a white surface, which made it easier to see the little lights, sparks, and other things moving about, but the sky works quite well too, if not better for seeing certain things. I would gaze at the sky several times a week over the period of 2 years when I went to the botanical gardens at my college when not reading or walking about to see if I could develop it further but it didn't progress much. It puts you into a light trance sometimes, but that was about the extent of my experience.

I looked at that link for entoptic phenomenon and while similar in the respect that what I see for the most part occurs within or on the surface of the eye and thus is fixed to my vision, the phenomenon of "prisoner's cinema" or phosphenes as they are called I believe is more closely linked with what is going on spiritually. Unfortunately it seems little research has been done on this phenomenon with practitioners of meditation.

With the hands at night exercise I assume you mean looking at your hand in darkness you see dots there? Otherwise it sounds like an afterimage if you're looking where your hand just was after moving it.

When I'm good and tired or coming out of sleep or deep trance, I can see the blue dots very clearly in the dark. They're everywhere in everything, but the human body seems to have a higher concentration of them, or maybe I'm just used to looking at my hands and holding them close to my eyes to observe the effect. It's quite startling to see it for the first time. You could walk around in pitch blackness and see things fairly well if the sight was developed enough. As to what exactly they are I don't know for sure- I speculate it might have to do with the astral level seeing as it becomes easier to see formed creations when in that state as well.

[alwayson4]

All of what you say are all true phenomenon, the star, aura, the blue dots in pitch black etc. And the mechanisms are mostly known.

But real thogal when you squint into a light source (sun, moon or candle)....I am not sure where the visions come from, except for the conventional explanation as in "Heart Drops"...which I am starting to have more faith in.

[alwayson4]

Discussing further dependent origination.....

The view to obtain rainbow body is free from all extremes such as existence and non-existence. But I am not suggesting there is a reality beyond existence and non-existence either, like the Hindu concept Brahman.


There is NO reality. There is NO ultimate.

The "ultimate" is awakening (rainbow body).....that is all.


And in accordance with the view of dependent origination, rainbow body must be CAUSED. And it must be YOU that causes it. Even empowerments recieved from Tibetan Lamas function only within the view of dependent origination.

And since this is Astral Dynamics, I will add that all things like magic and affirmations must also work via dependent origination.

[alwayson4]

Thoughts inherently are not "good" or "bad". There is no such thing as good and bad thoughts.

Thoughts do not have a sense of self either.


The natural state is about impassionatley observing thoughts as they come up, and dissolve again. The natural state is NOT about avoiding thoughts.

Once you have this down, you can practice thogal

Many (most?) thoughts are arrranged into a continuous voice in the head, that many people think that is them. If you realize that voice in the head is merely a bunch of thoughts, you can apply what I said above.

[Tombo]

Hi

I must admit I have not read thru all the posts. But there is one things that strikes me.

Certainly a true Buddhist like Buddha or the Dalai Lama are interested in the happiness of all beings. If your rainbow body practice would be so good why is it kept so secret and not teached by the great teachers? Does not make too much sense to me, really.

I have read quite a lot of orginal texts from Buddha and I have not read anything about Rainbow bodys etc. I'm sure Buddha would have instructed his fellows to do this exercises if he had thought them to be useful?!

Just my spontanous thoughts to this thread :roll:

[Tom]

It used to be that in order to learn Dzogchen it was necessary to start with the Theravada and work upward through the Mahayana and Vajrayana first. The core teachings of the Theravada would be the basis of Dzogchen to the end, much as you don't stop counting and doing basic math even when you are in college. Now in effect it is possible to enter school at the college level without having to concern yourself about previous educational background. Buddha didn't teach that way.

[alwayson4]

Hi

I must admit I have not read thru all the posts. But there is one things that strikes me.

Certainly a true Buddhist like Buddha or the Dalai Lama are interested in the happiness of all beings. If your rainbow body practice would be so good why is it kept so secret and not teached by the great teachers? Does not make too much sense to me, really.

I have read quite a lot of orginal texts from Buddha and I have not read anything about Rainbow bodys etc. I'm sure Buddha would have instructed his fellows to do this exercises if he had thought them to be useful?!

Just my spontanous thoughts to this thread :roll:



The Dalai Lama talks about the rainbow body all the time in his books. So I have no idea what your point is, unless it is to admit your own ignorance.


Anyway, to build up on what I was saying before, while centered in the NOW, thoughts and emotions should be liberated like a burglar in an empty house, neither analyzed nor avoided. This metaphor is straight out of Dzogchen (Jigme Lingpa).

[Korpo]

The Dalai Lama talks about the rainbow body all the time in his books. So I have no idea what your point is, unless it is to admit your own ignorance.

His point seems to obviously be that the Buddha himself never talks about the rainbow body, so how can it be "the highest practice of Buddhism"? (Buddhism = following the teachings of the Buddha) It was clear from the post, so absolutely no need to call somebody ignorant.

Oliver

[Tom]

The Mahayana includes the Theravada texts, but the Theravada does not include the Mahayana texts. The Mahayana is extended again by the Vajrayana, but not all of the Mahayana includes the Vajrayana. Dzogchen extends the Vajrayana - but the Vajrayana does not acknowledge Dzogchen except as possibly an adaptation on itself of no particular significance. The Theravada texts are the original, most basic foundation of all forms of Buddhism but they are rarely studied now even by the Mahayana. It started with the Lotus Sutra where Buddha says that being fully enlightened the Theravada way is nice, but once you have enjoyed a few aeons in Nirvana you have to come back and enter the Bodhisattva path and finally get to serious business. The text goes on to say that the Theravada people either fainted or ran away in terror at this point, and so they excluded themselves from the higher teachings which followed from that point on. The Theravada says that the Mahayana just wrote their own texts and claimed they came from Buddha. This conflict has yet to be fully resolved.

[alwayson4]

His point seems to obviously be that the Buddha himself never talks about the rainbow body, so how can it be "the highest practice of Buddhism"? (Buddhism = following the teachings of the Buddha) It was clear from the post, so absolutely no need to call somebody ignorant.

Oliver


But this is not true either

[Tom]

His point seems to obviously be that the Buddha himself never talks about the rainbow body, so how can it be "the highest practice of Buddhism"? (Buddhism = following the teachings of the Buddha) It was clear from the post, so absolutely no need to call somebody ignorant.

Oliver


But this is not true either

Any chance you might elaborate on that, so we know which part you are specifically referring to?

[alwayson4]

The Buddha does talk about the rainbow body

[Tombo]

His point seems to obviously be that the Buddha himself never talks about the rainbow body, so how can it be "the highest practice of Buddhism"? (Buddhism = following the teachings of the Buddha) It was clear from the post, so absolutely no need to call somebody ignorant.

Oliver


But this is not true either


Hi all

I might not have expressed myself well. I was infact only refering to the Buddha. i have not much knowledge about the Dalai Lamas books, I only saw a couple of his speeches, which were very mich in line with what I have read from Buddha

It might be true that my knowledge about Buddhas teaching is limited. I have studied the Sutas quite a bit though (mainly teachings that are directed toward the non-monks). I believe that the sutas are all online available. So yeah, why don't you give us a reference were Buddha talks about the Rainbow body. I'm really interested to read that. I do not want to cause too much dispute in your thread though. It is certainly not in Buddhas sense that we get angry here.

[Tombo]

It started with the Lotus Sutra where Buddha says that being fully enlightened the Theravada way is nice, but once you have enjoyed a few aeons in Nirvana you have to come back and enter the Bodhisattva path and finally get to serious business. The text goes on to say that the Theravada people either fainted or ran away in terror at this point, and so they excluded themselves from the higher teachings which followed from that point on.

Interesting. where can I find that Sutra? can you specify the reference? Maybe it could be found here? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/

Thanks Tom

[Tom]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lotus/lot01.htm

The domain name is familiar to me, and I think they are reliable - but it has been a long time since I tried to read it, and back then I went to the actual physical library and got the kind of book you hold in your hands. :)

[Tombo]

It started with the Lotus Sutra where Buddha says that being fully enlightened the Theravada way is nice, but once you have enjoyed a few aeons in Nirvana you have to come back and enter the Bodhisattva path and finally get to serious business. The text goes on to say that the Theravada people either fainted or ran away in terror at this point, and so they excluded themselves from the higher teachings which followed from that point on.

This Sutra certainly is incompatible with some of the Buddhist schools. As I have researched a bit mor about the background of this sutra it seems it contains parts from various sources and times.

see:

http://books.google.ch/books?id=etpDS3Q ... t#PPR10,M1 (http://books.google.ch/books?id=etpDS3QdOpQC&dq=%22SADDHARMA-PUNDAR%C3%8EKA%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=HyK1xkzdKa&sig=q4SFho9dyHqwP9JFJkvO7WE3DB8&hl=de&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPR10,M1)

This helps to make my point. There is a vast number of texts that can be said to contain buddhist teaching. one could easily spend his whole life reading without even having time to think about it or do any kind of exercises. maybe the Buddha was right when he said that his teachings will only survive 500 years after his death? It seems to me that one could justify virtually any kind of spiritual praxis with certain passages from this huge body of literature. Very much like it is the case also with Christianity or the Islam. i find this a bit alarming.....

So to come back to the topic. I seems in fact a bit ignorant to me to label this rainbow practice as the highest buddhist practice. There are at least 18 buddhist schools which follow different scriptures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_schools

Of whom the pali canon is the only completely surviving early Buddhist canon, and one of the first to be written down. I personaly therefore consider it to be the most relevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pali_Canon

It would consider it to be a classy act, If one would at least give more information on where the teachings about the rainbow body origin from and state more exactly in which buddistic schools that is considered the highest practice. (I know some buddhists and they certianly do not consider this practice to be relevant, which shall of course not imply that it is not the highest practice).

The initial post says that there are only two english books even containing information :?: I believe most of the sutras have been translated to english and published, so this seems very odd then. This seems to hint that it is some kind of secret teaching. This seems to contradict the spirit of Buddhism as I have already stated in my first post. Why would anybody want to keep something secret that helps the beings to be happy and makes this world a better place?
Any enlighted being would certainly share relevant teachings with their fellow men to help them. Right?!

KR Tom

[Tom]

Supposedly there was a documented case of someone attaining the rainbow body in Tibet in the 1950s.

[Korpo]

Tombo,

it is a question of the logic one applies.

Some people seem to believe that since Mahayana evolved out of Theravada, and Tibetan Buddhism derives from Mahayana, and so on, that the "latest" branch of Buddhism is the most evolved, implying that evolution always leads to progress. Or you might think that the most complex and elaborate practices denote the best or highest form of Buddhism. And so on.

This is basically a personal belief system issue. If somebody is attracted to esoteric material, complex practices, or anything else the Tibetan culture has added to it, someone will think Tibetan Buddhism is the highest. Others would argue that Theravada is the most pure Buddhism and is most easily traceable to the Buddha himself. And others might argue that the Mahayana schools brought insightful additions, which is basically the Chinese and East-Asian influences.

To me it all boils down to personal belief. Many people will state their belief as fact, quoting incomplete evidence that "proves" something is fact which mostly is based on their personal preferences, biases or beliefs.

It is perfectly possible that the Buddha gave some high-level teachings that were not meant for the public originally. That's what Mahayana rests on. It is not verifiable that he did. That's what Theravada still rests on. Given nobody of us was present, what are we to do to resolve this?

We can only approximate the truth about history.

Oliver

[Tombo]

Tombo,

it is a question of the logic one applies.

Some people seem to believe that since Mahayana evolved out of Theravada, and Tibetan Buddhism derives from Mahayana, and so on, that the "latest" branch of Buddhism is the most evolved, implying that evolution always leads to progress. Or you might think that the most complex and elaborate practices denote the best or highest form of Buddhism. And so on.

This is basically a personal belief system issue. If somebody is attracted to esoteric material, complex practices, or anything else the Tibetan culture has added to it, someone will think Tibetan Buddhism is the highest. Others would argue that Theravada is the most pure Buddhism and is most easily traceable to the Buddha himself. And others might argue that the Mahayana schools brought insightful additions, which is basically the Chinese and East-Asian influences.

To me it all boils down to personal belief. Many people will state their belief as fact, quoting incomplete evidence that "proves" something is fact which mostly is based on their personal preferences, biases or beliefs.

It is perfectly possible that the Buddha gave some high-level teachings that were not meant for the public originally. That's what Mahayana rests on. It is not verifiable that he did. That's what Theravada still rests on. Given nobody of us was present, what are we to do to resolve this?

We can only approximate the truth about history.

Oliver

Very well put Oliver. I agree 100%

[Tombo]

Supposedly there was a documented case of someone attaining the rainbow body in Tibet in the 1950s.

Good for him :)

[alwayson4]

You guys are nuts, if you think Buddha did not talk about the rainbow body in the Pali canon.


Anyway, changing topics slightly, I came to a VERY profound realization today, reading some academic Dzogchen things.

According to RB, raising kundalini basically forces you to obtain profound inner balance (and therefore reaching a higher consciousness because profound inner balance is required for that) or go insane.

Also kundalini opens you up to an many psychic impressions, creativity etc.

Now, in Dzogchen, stillness/the Now, is not the ultimate. The ultimate is to be in the NOW and let any emotions or thoughts be self-liberated, as a burglar in an empty house (neither analyzed nor avoided). THIS is the most important fuel for the rainbow body in conjunction with thogal because our personalites are mounted on the karmic winds, just as a flame is temporarily mounted on a candle.

Does everyone get where I am going with this?

[CFTraveler]

You guys are nuts, if you think Buddha did not talk about the rainbow body in the Pali canon. Please refrain from calling people names.
They are asking for a reference, as in "where did the Buddha talk about the rainbow body?"
I am assuming your answer is "Buddha spoke about the rainbow body in the Pali canon". Is this correct?

[alwayson4]

Buddha spoke about the rainbow body in the Pali canon

[Tom]

Buddha spoke about the rainbow body in the Pali canon

Could you please be more specific?

(I'm under the impression that the rainbow body teaching lineage started in Afganistan and was brought into Tibet from there rather than India.)

[Korpo]

According to RB, raising kundalini basically forces you to obtain profound inner balance (and therefore reaching a higher consciousness because profound inner balance is required for that) or go insane.

You seem to assume that everyone would accept whatever Robert wrote as ultimate truth. You would find that many people respectfully consider what Robert wrote, but do not always or necessarily agree with him, sometimes disagree with him from personal experience, etc.

In other words, you cannot assume others share your belief that Robert is right in whatever he writes. The way you comment on Robert's writings seem to indicate that you do indeed believe so.


Now, in Dzogchen, stillness/the Now, is not the ultimate. The ultimate is to be in the NOW and let any emotions or thoughts be self-liberated, as a burglar in an empty house (neither analyzed nor avoided). THIS is the most important fuel for the rainbow body in conjunction with thogal because our personalites are mounted on the karmic winds, just as a flame is temporarily mounted on a candle.

Does everyone get where I am going with this?

Again you assume that people would automatically accept either the Dzogchen tradition or your interpretation of such. People seem to be more critical than that. You seem to be of the conviction that whatever you think is true must be true. You will find many people here who'd rather say that what they think is true is possibly wrong, might be proven wrong or still needs more refinement. In other words, they assume that as humans they make errors and are prone to erroneous views.

You also seem not to consider that either Robert's writings or the scriptures and texts themselves might contain errors. Some might be wrong or are commonly interpreted wrong.

You also seem very attached to your personal interpretation of the scriptures and the ideas brought forward in them. Or to what Robert said. But surely you must see that this "framework of understanding" is solely your making and not identical to what authors of those scriptures must have meant. What you think what was meant is not necessarily identical to what was intended, nor as complete, and maybe even wrong. Your current understanding is based on your own interpretation, it is based on your assumptions (like: "Robert is right") and personal preferences (for example you prefer Dzogchen teachings over other teachings) and many of the conclusions you draw are solely your own, and others do not necessarily agree with them.

I personally would assume that someone who calls people "nuts" and "ignorant" for disagreeing, or for wanting proper references to original scripture or for simply intellectually challenging a publicly stated idea, is very attached to these beliefs. Just by relabelling beliefs as "truths" they do not become any more true.

None of this says I consider Dzogchen good or bad, less or more true. None of this says I know what is true or what is not, or whether I can judge what of Robert's teachings is correct. It does however mean I find fault in your reasoning and style of interacting with other users. It does not mean the ideas you bring forward are wrong, just as it does not mean they are right, it just means I personally would prefer less claims of "truth" and a more open discussion - with proper references to source material, for example.

Oliver

[Tombo]

Buddha spoke about the rainbow body in the Pali canon

What is so hard about giving a proper reference? Hence, which sutras do you have in mind? I would like to know more about this practice first hand.

It is a couple years back when I stopped taking information from strangers in the internet as truth. This is no personal attack. I find it good and interesting when you write about unkown practices. I really do. For example, a couple months ago, I have read a book about some secret tibetan dream yoga practice with great interest. But you can not expect people to just take your word for the truth, especially since you do not talk about personal experience but rather far reaching concepts. And your reactions seem to indicat that you have not mastered some basic buddhist teachings, like being friendly and not let out bad emotions....

KR Tom

[alwayson4]

What is so hard finding the reference for yourself?

If you do not believe me, I honestly could not care less.

[Tombo]

I honestly could not care less.

That does not surprise me. One last advice before I leave this thread: Practice some more basic teachings before reaching for the sky.

bye

[Tom]

What is so hard finding the reference for yourself?

If you do not believe me, I honestly could not care less.

The historical Buddha did not talk about the rainbow body, which would make it rather difficult to come up with a reference to him having done so. He left the more advanced material for Guru Rimpoche to reveal. Then again, it is always possible that I could be mistaken - if you can provide a reference to a valid source that the Buddha did talk about the rainbow body, great, and if not then that's okay, too.

[alwayson4]

The whole Pali canon is about the rainbow body, so I guess everyone wants me to type out the Pali canon. All Buddhas have the 32 major marks, and the 80 minor marks of a superior being, this is in the Pali canon. This is basic Buddhism 101. I think I learned this in high school. The historical buddha, in the Pali canon, always aknowledged other Buddhas. What do you think the third vision of thogal involves? These marks are not physical.


If people do not understand the basics, it would take a lot of my time, to bring everyone up to speed.

[Tom]

The major and minor marks are different than the rainbow body.

[alwayson4]

You do not understand the third vision of thogal. I agree the 32 marks are different than the rainbow body. But during the third vision, you will see Buddhas with all the traditional Pali canon marks, spontaneously and without imagination or visualization.....from within your heart chakra. (Thogal does not rely on a generation stage.) But even this is illusion.


What is your interpretation of the marks?

[Tom]

Perhaps, but I did read the Diamond Cutter Sutra where it says that it is possible to have the major marks and not even be a Buddha.

Besides ... I'll willingly bet that you don't understand Tögal as well as you think you do.

[alwayson4]

No I understand it 100%.

Not that I am convinced by it, but I understand it.

[alwayson4]

Perhaps, but I did read the Diamond Cutter Sutra where it says that it is possible to have the major marks and not even be a Buddha.




right because the marks are not physical

[alwayson4]

Most important thing, without which rainbow body is not possible

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refuge_(Buddhism)

The mahayana version, because it includes refuge, merit dedication and bodhicitta which are the 3 minimum requirements for rainbow body

You just need to visualize the Buddha is standing in front of you.



P.S. taking Buddhist refuge protects against negs :D Atleast it is claimed that it does.

[Hastor]

Really weird, but I think I might have had a pre-rainbow body or some other type of experiance recently. Last weekend I was at a debate and decided to go up on the roof. While I was sitting in a chair and staring at the sky miniture dots of form started to appear in front of me and almost pop within and out of existance while moving in a spatial direction. Being a good ole' skeptic I dissmissed this as what it most likely was, an illusion or mirage. This is when it became strange. I attempted to look through the haze of dots and with only one eye, so as to insure that no more illusions took place, and then thin strands of rainbow started to form in the sky this lasted until my extinguishing kicked in and a large black shape grew into focus and blotted out my vision of the sky. Since then I have seen a rainbow strand while near sleep and it seemed to nestle in between a fold in the leg of my pants. I am afraid that this all might have been an illusion, but on the other hand, from hearing and studying what this topic is about, it might be the early manifestations of the rainbow body if not the potential for such.

[Hastor]

This might not be the classiest way to do this, but I'm not entirely sure if there is any more elegent way of saying that I am going to give this topic a bump. It sounds very intresting and, not to sound too randian, I wouldn't terribly mind getting my question answered.

[ps24eva]

http://www.surajamrita.com/bon/buddhahood.html

[Hastor]

I know this must be a lot to ask, but I would really like to know some books or sites for someone who is deeply intrested in the rainbow body. I have yet to truly induct myself into any of the practices mentioned here let alone the knowledge required outside of very general energy works and attempts at Astral Projection. It seems that Heart Drops of Dharmakaya seems to be a very good source, but I am also looking for any books related to advanced spiritual practices such as kundalini. I am not in the belief that I can instantly jump to the practice of these advanced practices, but I would very much like to have the knowledge of the workings within these practices in hopes that I will be able to use such knowledge in my steady progression towards their eventual practice. Any material would be welcome. Thank you so very much for any response to this.

Thanks,
Hastor

[Tom]

If you haven't mastered the first jhana, you won't get anywhere with the rainbow body practices. It would be best to start there if you don't have it already. It provides a foundation for the exercise which comes before the one which produces the Rainbow Body and it simplifies receiving the required initiation.

[ps24eva]

Jhana is Theravada, not Mahayana...

To answer you Hastor, to raise kundalini Robert Bruce says you need to have psychotherapy beforehand. In fact developing psychologically IS spiritual development. This is what he has said.

Since I am a do it yourself guy, I have started to read a lot of Carl Jung. I would highly suggest you get the book "The Invisible Partners" by Sanford.

This deals with the anima archetype which Jung said was the "masterpiece" of alchemy (psychological development). And I would also read the anima portions of the book "The Essential Jung" by Anthony Storr. The anima portion starts on page 100.

You could borrow both books through your library or interlibrary loan.

[Tom]

The Mahayana builds on the Theravada. It is actually a violation of your Bodhisattva vows to speak against the Theravada or to attempt to discard it. It is also a violation of your Bodhisattva vows to lack an interest in developing your concentration.

[ps24eva]

First off, I have not taken those vows.

Secondly, it actually breaks Vajrayana vows and samaya to stay in the same house as a Theravadin for more than set period of time. I think it was like two days or week, I am not sure.

[Hastor]

Tom, thank you so much for your reply. Such a foundation is exactly what I was looking for. If you could, though, list any books you know that might pertain to the Jhana and are of such quality that I might make the most out of reading them.

Thanks,
Hastor

[ps24eva]

I have it from someone is very knowledgeable about thogal, an actual Vajrayana Dzogchen guy who is almost a lama.

Actually he could be a Lama know if he took on students.

Physical relaxation is what makes thogal work. I urge that wake induced OBE is mastered. It is a coincidence that both require it.

As Robert has said, deep physical relaxation is the key to OBE, because you can achieve the trance state even if the body is not relaxed.

[Tom]

This is a good way of describing getting to jhana -

http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=89

This is a quick summary of the obstacles you have to overcome to get there -

http://www.bswa.org/modules/icontent/index.php?page=73

The thing about jhana being Theravada is not quite correct. It was well documented in Theravada Buddhism, but it actually precedes Buddhism. It was vipassana rather than jhana which was purely Buddhist.

[ps24eva]

I think jhana is the trance state.

Why?

Because in one of the later jhanas you obtain something called the divine eye. This divine eye is THE ability, Buddha used to see his previous lives.

The description of the divine eye is exactly like the vision screen, down to the flash of light due to the brow strobe (see astral dynamics).

[Tom]

Jhana is a bit more involved than the trance state preceding astral projection.

[ps24eva]

You would have to refute my point about the Divine Eye being the third eye strobe Vision Screen.

As you know, the Divine Eye is the most important ability in Theravada.

I am certain that the fourth jhana is simply a full trance state.

[Tom]

It was enough to provide links to how to get to jhana. It is a sort of out-of-body experience in that the body remains in the physical world and at the same time the mind goes to the level of various heavens. You could say that in the 4th jhana the mind reaches a higher level of heaven than in the 1st jhana.

[ps24eva]

In the fourth jhana, the divine eye appears, where the practitioner can view any person, any place, any time, including the heavens.

Before the divine eye manifests, there is a flash of inner light onto which the practitioner must focus.

Sounds exactly like the vision screen in Astral Dynamics!

And I think Gautama Buddha admitted non-buddhists could obtain the divine eye

So basically one should completely master wake induced OBE. The same skills are useful for many things including thogal.

[Tom]

Astral projection is one of the siddhis (accomplishments) listed both as a result of the 4th jhana and in the chapter on siddhis in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. I agree that all of these things are related and connected. If I have a point to make it is that you do not seem to value foundation type exercises. One of the biggest mistakes I have made was to think of preliminary exercises as something to do quickly in order to discard in favor of more interesting practices. It is something I would like to think I have stopped doing.

[ps24eva]

What is more foundational than wake induced OBE?

Reread my post.

I am saying, start out with wake induced OBE


Regarding siddhis, in the literature it says that raising kundalini gives one siddhis. If you believe Robert Bruce raised his kundalini, he says all his psychic abilities became stronger after a period of stabilization. Therefore logically the so called ancient siddhis are simply clairvoyance, vision screen, and OBE.

[Tom]

What I mean is that the quality of out-of-body experience that one has after mastering the 4th jhana or various pranayama exercises is probably very different than what is experienced with astral projection alone, even if it is astral projection either way and we can talk about the experience the same way.

[ps24eva]

Its the same. You would realize this, if you read the primary sources...or had practical experience with wake induced OBE

You need to do pranayama even to do OBE as advocated by Robert Bruce. He talks about breath in Astral Dynamics and in posts in the "Ask Robert Bruce" section.

[CFTraveler]

Its the same. You would realize this, if you read the primary sources...or had practical experience with wake induced OBE




No insults. I won't say it again.

[Hastor]

CFTraveler, would you happen to know any good books related to higher energy practices such as kundalini or the rainbow body? Tom gave two good sites discussing the preliminary Jhana which would help with providing a foundation. Any material would be very welcome.

Thanks,
Hastor

[CFTraveler]

I believe either Tom or Oliver would be the people to ask- Oliver is on sabbatical, though. What I do is not specific enough.

[Tom]

The thing about jhana is that it is used as a foundation, but it is not just a preliminary. It actually draws on Kundalini and the more you practice it the more your Kundalini develops. That is why at the 4th jhana the psychic powers are developed, of which, knowledge of breaking free from the cycle of birth and death is the most valued. There are four additional formless jhanas to develop. In addition there are vipassana jhanas developed with the regular jhana states as a basis. The highest jhana is actually beyond the jhanas and it is available only to non-returners and arhats. It is called cessation and described as touching nirvana with the body.

http://interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml

I had suggested short articles before, with a focus on practice, but the book at this site is much more detailed and it covers working in vipassana.

Because your goal is the Rainbow Body I would suggest Yoga Nidra as a place to begin working toward it.

http://swamij.com/

It is a way of working toward identifying with awareness which is present 24/7/365, so that consciousness is not lost in sleep or death.

[ps24eva]

The rainbow body is the result of thogal and nothing else.

The only preliminary is trechod, BUT, but as Dzogchen lamas have said, if you think trechod is something different than thogal, you have learned nothing. Trechod is simply about relaxation and the present moment. It is NOT a distinct practice.

Therefore it simply about thogal.

Now an almost-Lama has told me that kundalini WOULD accelerate this process greatly.

[Tom]

They tell people different things depending on where they are along the way. Those things are frequently contradictory. When a person is at a particular place it is best to focus on the teachings for that place long enough to make progress and move on.

[ps24eva]

I am pretty sure every Dzogchen lama has said that trechod is not a distinct practice from thogal. Which makes sense if you know what trechod is. The only people who think they are distinct are people on the internet or newbies.

It is said that Dzogchen metaphysics,cosmology, and point of view do not make sense without thogal.

[ps24eva]

actually rushan is the only preliminary to thogal

[Tom]

It may depend on the student, but Lama Surya Das even requires a Ngöndro from many of his students before trekchöd and thögdal. It isn't precisely the same as the Vajrayana Ngöndro in that the View is Dzogchen even though the practice is still based on visualization and transmutation. In an ideal world, the direct introduction to the nature of mind would be all that is required, but unfortunately in many cases it does not take because the student is not ready. Almost everything goes toward getting the student ready.

[ps24eva]

DIrect Introduction to the mind is only the beginning. I don't think anyone can realize Buddhahood this way. Has this been claimed?

Because it would not remove the two obscurations....

Rigpa is not synonymous with Buddhahood. Heck even the third vision of thogal is still far away from Buddhahood, I was told.

[Tom]

Yes, I realize that the introduction really is the first step. What I mean to say is that how far it takes the student depends on the quality of the student. There are teachers who jump right to the introduction and some who spend a great deal of time preparing the student, because the introduction only happens once and it is possible to get a great deal more out of it with the right preliminary work.

[Hastor]

How would one go about finding a teacher if one would wish to pursue such a path with the aid of a person who has the experiance and knowledge to teach such practices?

Even then, how necessary is it to have a teacher for this in the first place?

I understand the hurdles of self practice in any area, but are there pros or cons to the art of self practice within the discipline of dzogchen?

thanks,
Hastor

[ps24eva]

You can't practice thogal until you have taken Mahyana refuge.

Now in THEORY, you could take Mahayana refuge on your own, by visualizing the Buddha in front of you and reciting it (google around to find it).

And since you have not taken any vows, you could practice thogal. You would not be violating any vows, because you have not taken any....

You would be taking a mahasiddha path

[Timotheus]

:D

[ps24eva]

You are entitled to your own view, but whenever I scan a long post and find christian quotes, I do not read it.

You should summarize your point in one sentence, and post again

[Hastor]

You are entitled to your own view, but whenever I scan a long post and find christian quotes, I do not read it.

You should summarize your point in one sentence, and post again

I think you should not be to quick to blow off a paost just because he quotes some christian retoric. Look a little deeper into chrisianity and you might realize its relavence to the topic.

Process of Creating the Rainbow Body:
- Either at death or during life a person begins the transformation.
- Their body begins to shrink until only the non-organic parts are left (teeth, hair, and nails).
- Person may reappear as composed of energy.
- Their new existance is no longer bound by earthly limitations.

Jesus:
- Died on the cross.
- After three days his tomb was empty. (Understandable if no one noticed some teeth or hair lying about the place)
- Jesus re-emerges covered in a heavenly glow with all of his wounds healed.
- After chilling out for awhile he prooceeds to lift off the ground and float into heaven.

I'm not trying to make a huge statement or anything. If anything, my arguement is full of holes I haven't had the time to look through yet. Suffice to say I am not trying to turn this into a debate. All I am doing is trying to show that a little insight is healthy as opposed to quick judgements based on menial evidence.

Thanks,
Hastor

[ps24eva]

Since Hastor, YOU are the one so interested in the rainbow body, I must tell you that you cannot obtain rainbow body unless you take Mahayana refuge in the Buddha. See my last post on the previous page.

So no more Jesus for you

I don't make the rules.

[Britkit28]

Hello All -

I'd first like to start by saying that I very much enjoy and appreciate the posts of Tom and Timotheus. They are mind-expanding, which is I believe part of what we are here for. Second, and I know this goes without saying, I do not intend for this post to be taken as "fact". I have followed this entire thread and simply feel I may have something to contribute.

I am a (somewhat) practicing Kabbalist and born psychic, and I can tell you that all of these explanations of "enlightenment" are very much similar if not the same in the way of how they are explained, whether you choose to call it Christianity, Buddhism, or spirituality, etc. Tom, I agree with you in that everyone's journey will be different and the course of study will vary greatly student to student. I have a hard time believing that our spiritual evolution could ever be so structured as to be filled with "can/can't/must". Life isn't a classroom, as many choose to believe.

While I have a great deal of respect for Buddhism, I never quite warmed to it because one of the things I look for in someone who is on the "path of enlightenment" is a lack of (or at least an attempt to control) ego, and while I hesitate to tar all of Buddhism with the same brush - going off my somewhat limited experience (friends, boyfriend, acquaintances, this forum, etc) - I simply feel that many individuals pursuing this path are far too egotistical to even come close to what it means to be "enlightened". Even the most "enlightened" I find intellectualize everything, set up so-call rules, and tout themselves as being a cut above the rest. It has occurred to me at a very early age that this is not what humanity is all about, and I have always felt (or known) that the general rule of thumb is, if it causes confusion, it is not of God (or whatever name you choose to use).

Timotheus, I very much enjoyed your post and couldn't have said it better myself. The path to "enlightenment" is simply knowing and being. In Tibet, it is known that there are 2 paths to "enlightenment", one of which is Kundalini. However, they warned against taking the path of Kundalini. I will use the words of another to sum this up best:

"According to the Tibetans there were two paths to enlightenment.
One was a peaceful life in the monastery where one obeyed moral commands and monastery rules, i.e. behaving impeccably, doing good deeds, disregarding material interests and striving for peace of mind. In this way one could eventually reach salvation.

The other path was called the "direct way" and was a purely intellectual method, which freed the one who followed it from all kinds of laws. One could reach this freedom through artificial spiritual exercises, like breathing-exercises, yoga and meditation. But that path was considered to be highly dangerous. It was like, instead of following the path which slowly winds its way up towards the top of the mountain, trying to climb vertically up the cliffs and cross abysses with help only of a thin rope. Even the best suited for it could be hit by a sudden attack of dizziness and fall like a presumptuous alpinist and break his back. By this the Tibetans mean a terrible spiritual fall which leads to the worst kind of perversities and the greatest confusion. One landed in the end on a "demonic" level. Instead of reaching "the total liberation" they became mad. They had knocked on doors which they should not have done.

Not even in the old occult Tibetan literature can one find the perfect doctrine about these exercises, they were given only verbally from master to disciple, and the interpretations varied not only from sect to sect, but also from master to master. (In the "Tibetan Book of the Dead", which can be read as a "process of initiation", the aspirant is warned against "following the dim lights" in the kingdom of the dead, on the spiritual path. The dim lights come from the World of the Unhappy Spirits and one does not succeed in reaching Liberation if one gets stuck there.)"

In other words, as human beings of such limitation, our true "natural state" is here. The true purpose of being here is not to learn to get out, but rather to REMEMBER to love one another and see ourselves as ONE no matter what - it will always come back to this no matter what you do or don't do. We are here to live not escape. Anything you learn in these other realms cannot possibly be understood properly as it will be tainted with ego and misconstrued by other "beings" on their own personal path. It will always be half truth (the very core of "Satanism", "negativity", etc.), and some paths are simply not accessible to us. This is the design. The universe is not filled with laws, it is filled with truths. There is a cycle we follow and that cycle exists to maintain balance. To go against that cycle is where "hell" follows. It was once said to me by a Christian to think of the 10 Commandments as the 10 Commendments. In other words, instead of thou shalt not commit adultry, think more in terms of, when you know "Infinite Spirit" you will not commit adultery. They are spiritual truths that will be true for you once you are on the right path. It is the design. Religion is irrelevant.

Timotheus, you said it better than I ever could. This so-called knowledge and "wisdom" is nothing more than ego. We already contain this wisdom within us all. We are here to REMEMBER it and understand it EXPERIENCIALLY. In Kabbalah it is explained that "God" is the universe attempting to know itself experiencially. In other words, in the absence of "good" and "bad" and relativity (the realm of perfection), how would one know itself? How would you know if you were happy if you had not first experienced what it was like to be sad? So in Kabbalah we learn that our life here serves a great purpose, and the key is not to dwell in the underworld, but rather to remember ourselves in this realm so that we are better able to understand the after. We are able to repeat this process until we get it right. It is all free will. In the same way a parent would not be concerned about danger with a child playing in a play box, so it is our "God" (or shall I say Infinite Spirit) is not concerned for our "safety" here. Some spirits may choose to repeat continuously and "play", while others come to help others, and some still have valuable lessons to grasp.

I am of the belief that there is nothing to "know". Everything we need is in us all. We just have to be willing to connect to one another and know that we are one. It is easy to sit and meditate, hoping to be delivered in some way or enjoy a nice "buzz", but it is much more challenging to love (truly) every person you meet and demonstrate that on a daily basis. I believe we are here to understand and remember the latter.

Apologies for the long post, and cheers for such a great discussion board! :)

[Britkit28]

PS. I just wanted to clarify, I am not speaking out against general meditation (or prayer if that is what one chooses to call it). I was trying to put into perspective the purpose behind doing it, which should truly be to unite and be selfLESS through focusing on one's demonstrations of love unto others. We truly receive what we give. That is the natural design.

[ps24eva]

While I have a great deal of respect for Buddhism, I never quite warmed to it because one of the things I look for in someone who is on the "path of enlightenment" is a lack of (or at least an attempt to control) ego.
I simply feel that many individuals pursuing this path are far too egotistical to even come close to what it means to be "enlightened".


But doesn't that make YOU egotistical? Think about it. You are judging other people.

Also 99.9% of Western Mahayana Buddhists are clueless. (I guess I made a judgement there myself).

[Britkit28]

While I have a great deal of respect for Buddhism, I never quite warmed to it because one of the things I look for in someone who is on the "path of enlightenment" is a lack of (or at least an attempt to control) ego.
I simply feel that many individuals pursuing this path are far too egotistical to even come close to what it means to be "enlightened".


But doesn't that make YOU egotistical? Think about it. You are judging other people.

Also 99.9% of Western Mahayana Buddhists are clueless. (I guess I made a judgement there myself).

I never touted myself as being perfect or free of ego, but no, I do not believe to respect someone is to be egotistical.

[Tom]

Can we just say that almost everyone seems clueless?

[ps24eva]

It seems that way, because we are projecting our own unacknowledged character traits onto other people.

Thus Jung's shadow.

[Britkit28]

Can we just say that almost everyone seems clueless?


It seems that way, because we are projecting our own unacknowledged character traits onto other people.

Thus Jung's shadow.

This is precisely why we are here to focus on self. We are not designed to concern ourselves with someone else's journey and can never truly know their progress. To go against this design brings negativity and is backwards. By focusing on self and making the highest choices, you automatically affect others in a positive way.

By the way, I do not agree that almost everyone seems clueless. We are all at our own stage and I cannot possibly know the line between genius and cluelessness in it's true context for another individual. There is light everywhere and in everyone. It's difficult to remember this, but challenges continually arise until we do.

[ps24eva]

Back to the subject of this thread, Buddhism agrees with Robert Bruce, and the Dalai Lama, that the goal of practice is to become a better person through knowing yourself. This directly leads to Buddhahood. If you don't believe me, research the emotional obscuration to Buddhahood.

Therefore I encourage everyone to read some psychology textbooks. I prefer Jungian psychology myself.

If you understand how your psyche works, then you I think you have taken some steps up the spirtual staircase.

To know youself is to know the Divine.

[Britkit28]

Back to the subject of this thread, Buddhism agrees with Robert Bruce, and the Dalai Lama, that the goal of practice is to become a better person through knowing yourself. This directly leads to Buddhahood. If you don't believe me, research the emotional obscuration to Buddhahood.

Therefore I encourage everyone to read some psychology textbooks. I prefer Jungian psychology myself.

If you understand how your psyche works, then you I think you have taken some steps up the spirtual staircase.

To know youself is to know the Divine.

That is interesting because I was under the impression that the topic of this thread was thogal and rainbow body...

It occurred to me when I was a girl that I was not able to use my psychic ability on myself, but only on others. This lead me to an interesting concept. If I were able to use my abilities on myself, I would be far less likely to use it as a tool to help others. We are to use what we remember and know to reach out to others. It's not just for self, but for connecting and remembering. We are already one and part of Infinite Spirit (everything and nothing). You climb the highest peak only to find there is nothing there because it was always in you. There is nothing to find, and nothing to escape from. It is in our loving efforts towards one another that we remember who we are. This is not a law, it is a shared realization that crosses all religions and boundaries. We all have this and we have always been.

In any case, not wishing to go back and forth, Tom and Timotheus I thank you once again for such wonderful posts. They have provided much insight, and I especially appreciate the way that your posts are not completely cloaked in ego, but rather provide good food for thought.

[Britkit28]

PS. I suppose this is where Kabbalah and Buddhism differs. We are not taught that we are the Divine, but rather we are of the Divine, just as a child is of its parent. They are one, but not one in the same. I believe there was a similar quote from Jesus saying something to the effect of, "I am of the Father, but the Father is not of me"... At least I think that's how it goes. I'm not sure how much this matters, but I do find the difference quite interesting.

[Tom]

By the way, I do not agree that almost everyone seems clueless. We are all at our own stage and I cannot possibly know the line between genius and cluelessness in it's true context for another individual. There is light everywhere and in everyone. It's difficult to remember this, but challenges continually arise until we do.

Really. If you find someone you think is not clueless, just ask that person's parents and you will immediately be informed of every clueless thing this person has ever done. Or their spouse. Or their children. Their neighbors. Their boss. Their employees. The teachers they had growing up. The kids who went to school with them. Just ask enough people and you will get all the dirt.

There were people who met Buddha in person who said he was just a regular guy and they didn't know why so many people were making such a fuss over him.

[Britkit28]

By the way, I do not agree that almost everyone seems clueless. We are all at our own stage and I cannot possibly know the line between genius and cluelessness in it's true context for another individual. There is light everywhere and in everyone. It's difficult to remember this, but challenges continually arise until we do.

Really. If you find someone you think is not clueless, just ask that person's parents and you will immediately be informed of every clueless thing this person has ever done. Or their spouse. Or their children. Their neighbors. Their boss. Their employees. The teachers they had growing up. The kids who went to school with them. Just ask enough people and you will get all the dirt.

There were people who met Buddha in person who said he was just a regular guy and they didn't know why so many people were making such a fuss over him.

I'm not quite sure how to respond to that because I think it's far to easy to look at someone and call them clueless or even stupid. I have been shown far too many examples in my life though of how connected we are. A clueless comment to you may be exactly what another person needs to hear to make them think differently and expand their mind, so it's not for me to say that someone is not a positive contribution to the whole when I cannot know their path and level of spirtual progress. It's all quite relative and fluid. So no, I do not agree that everyone is clueless (forgotten who we are perhaps (Kabbalah teaches that this is by choice before we are "born"), but not clueless), but it doesn't matter that I don't agree. It doesn't change anything. We can both be right or wrong and it wouldn't change a thing or make us contradictory. And I would never take what someone else says about someone as an authority on that person's spiritual level. Actions would tell me that.

The reason nobody thought Buddha was special is because he wasn't, nor was any "prophet" - coming from their own words. We're all the same and are meant to remember who we are. There is no trick to this and we needn't go to complicated classes to understand this.

[Tom]

If it is true that over 99% of Mahayana Buddhists are clueless - and I'm not saying they are - that shows the system is broken, and not the people in it.

[ButterflyWoman]

I think it's far to easy to look at someone and call them clueless or even stupid. I have been shown far too many examples in my life though of how connected we are. A clueless comment to you may be exactly what another person needs to hear to make them think differently and expand their mind, so it's not for me to say that someone is not a positive contribution to the whole when I cannot know their path and level of spirtual progress. It's all quite relative and fluid.
Exactly.