A question for someone who knows their Chi Kung

[Cal]

http://www.plumpub.com/images/VCD2/vcd645.jpg

That's an image of a chi kung static stance. I learned this stance from one of Erle Montaigues DVD's. Basically this version of the stance seems to be the popular one.

However I have seen a massively more efficient version of this stance on a Stephen Chow film (can't remember which one).

The only difference between the version pictured above and the stance SC held in the film were the hands, the fingers were flexed back with thumbs bent, palms facing forward.

I would like to know more about this stance if anyone can help, be it by telling me yourself or pointing me in the right direction. The much improved efficiency of this version has been more than enough to urge me into discovering more about it.

Please help me if you can.

Thank you
Cal

[Cal]

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/740/chowyw2.png

I managed to get a picture of it. The film was From Beijing With Love.

Is it ringing any bells?

Thank you
Cal

[Mickey]

Hello!

While I'm certainly not an advanced chi kung practitioner, the stance in the picture from the movie seems wrong to me . By keeping the elbows low and the upper arms close to the body. chi will not flow through the meridians properly. Turning the palms outward like in the pic creates another block in the wrist.

To my understanding, the basic idea in chi kung and tai chi is to use a posture that favors opening , free flow and yin-yang balance within the body. Applying this principle to the standing stance with arms in front, my teacher would have told me to imagine a round structure, like a cartwheel maybe, held up by the arms in front of the chest. Palms would face inward and then be slightly turned upwards and outwards with the thumbs going up and the other fingers slightly spread. This position favors the opening of the big energy conduct from the shoulders through the arms all the way into the fingers. It'swould be much more like in the first pic with the chinese characters, only the hands wouldn't slope down at the wrists and the palms and thumbs would be as described above.

I find one can actually feel it when the position is "right" - there's a sensation of solidity and harmony about it.

8)

[Korpo]

By keeping the elbows low and the upper arms close to the body. chi will not flow through the meridians properly.

Letting the elbows hang down, their own weight pulling them down, is one excellent way to connect the arm to the shoulder and therefore connect the energies. Raising the shoulder or elbow is creating a disconnect, so even when raising the arm, the elbow is suspended, and the shoulder is left down.

That's how it was taught in my "Gods Playing in the Clouds" course, a very effective Qigong.

The arms can stay close to the body as long as there is space left under the armpit - you could for example fit an orange in there, but the arm does not need to be far away from the body. Just the armpit needs to be "open", as this opens the energy gates in the shoulder to again connect the arm to the rest. I remember that from the "Energy Gates" Qigong.

There are three major combinations that integrate the energy of the body in Taiji movement when obeying them in movement. I can only remember two at the moment - shoulder connection and the hip connection. Maintaining these connections or combinations in all moves enables the continuous flow of energy in Taiji, and if one of these connections is not maintained during a move, the energetic flow is broken, too.

Oliver

[Mickey]

Hi Oliver!

I agree the elbows can't be too high, since that automatically creates muscular tension. I just did some experimenting with different positions and to me it feels most harmonious and powerful when the elbows are more or less halfway between the lowest possible position (pressing against the ribs) and the highest (above the shoulders).

8)

[Korpo]

Yes, Mickey, I agree. :)

Elbows that go sideways are allowed. They should point downward, but of course many moves do not allow them to point completely downward.

What was emphasized was that not the elbow dominate the move, but the hand, and the elbow-shoulder connection be just loosely hanging in there, like suspended from the hand and shoulder points. This minimises arm tension, I guess, and makes for a smooth flow.

Oliver

[bmcoomes]

Hi all,

From my understanding and teachings, is the elbow must be a fists length away from the ribs minimum (aka Tan Sao). The top side is level with the shoulder with the wrist lower then the elbow (aka Bong Sao). I wouldn't say either stance is wrong, the top image circulates the energy and the lower projects the energy. Thats from Wing Chun and Jun Fan.

Thanks,
Brent

[Cal]

Excellent info guys! Thank you!

It seems that my assumption that they different versions of the same thing due to their similarity was wrong.

You see, that other version (from the film) does something to my hands, opens something in the palm and between the bottom joints of the index finger and thumb. Make me and my hands feel great :)

bmcoomes, what do you mean it "projects" energy?

Thank you
Cal

[Korpo]

bmcoomes, what do you mean it "projects" energy?

Projecting energy from the palms. Like letting energy run through the palms and ejecting it.

You might especially want to look up the term "Fa Jin" - the projecting of energy in internal martial arts. See for example "The Power of Internal Martial Arts": Bruce Frantzis names as an example that the focal point of projected energy can be behind the opponent, letting the projected energy run through the opponent and pushing the opponent up to several feet away. Or the focal point can be inside the opponent's body, doing damage to internal structures.

This same kind of discharge also is used in Qigong Tui Na body work - an energy-augmented massage of tissues. Here the energies are focussed inside another person in a precise manner to accomplish the resolution of blockages.

IIRC the open palm projects, and if you make more like a "claw hand", it draws energy.

Oliver

[bmcoomes]

Cal,
Sorry, for taking so long to reply. I had some family matters to take care of.

Oliver provided a very good answer to your question but projecting energy.

You may be feeling more energy circulating form the 'open' circuit, in my option you move less energy in a 'closed' circuit.

An open circuit is one were you draw energy in and let the energy run through you and out in a linear type manner. Aka drawing energy up from the feet to the lower Tan Tien and up through the arms and out the palms.
A closed circuit is one were you draw energy in and move it through a loop of some type. Aka drawing energy up from the feet to the lower Tan Tien and then up through the arms and around back down like the top posture.

Oliver,
I think you are right with the clawed hand draws energy.


Thanks, I hope that helps some,

[Korpo]

bmcoomes, I agree.

Projecting makes you the conduit, circulation makes you a circuit. Both have their uses and own value. In the Daoist technique of "Grand Circulation" you acutally combine both, as you circulate energy of the Earth through you into the Heaven, and energy from the Heaven through you into the Earth. Techniques of Heaven and Earth like this can be found in the Grand Circulation, but also in moving Qigong forms like "The Marriage of Heaven and Earth".

Oliver

[bmcoomes]

Oliver,
I agree that each has it's uses and value if it didn't then it would not still in use.

Do you have any resources on the Grand Circulation and The Marriage of Heaven and Earth?

thanks,

[Korpo]

Do you have any resources on the Grand Circulation and The Marriage of Heaven and Earth?

My source material for the Grand Circulation is incomplete at best, and I am in general no circulation practitioner, though I sometimes do the Small Circulation. "The Marriage of Heaven and Earth" is taught in courses, though I learned the basics from a DVD (http://www.energyarts.com/Energy-Arts-System/Frantzis-Core-Chi-Gung-Program/Marriage-of-Heaven-and-Earth-Chi-Gung.html).

Oliver