The illusion of Separation... Does it persist after death?

[ButterflyWoman]

I've become keenly aware that the view that we are separate from Source and each other and everything else is an illusion. I can almost "see" it but not quite... yet....

Anyway, the thing I'm thinking about at the moment is the question of this illusion of separation and how it might be (is?) maintained after we die. In that, if we actually reincarnate in some sort of "soul" form, then this illusion that we are coherent beings that are separate and have our own unique "identity" (whether egoic or some sort of soul identity) must persist through incarnations.

If, then, we are able to fully overcome this illusion, is this the end of incarnation? Because we understand finally that we are not separate beings who need to keep returning here for any reason... ?

I, myself, do have several apparent other life memories, so I'm not saying I don't believe in that sort of thing. I'm just a bit confused and I thought I might take the opportunity to confuse some other people, too. ;)

[CFTraveler]

I have thoughts about this, but I don't have the time/energy to go into it atm. Later on I'll participate, if I have the energy, unless someone else says what I wanted to.

[wstein]

I'm essentially answering from the point of view that the illusion is one and the same as the mistaken idea that there is separation. Thus in order for the illusion to cease, all separation must cease.

To end the separation, there must no longer be any incarnations as the very concept of incarnation includes separation of being from environment (not/other being).

The soul, over soul, etc. are also separate 'beings'. Even if they are not incarnate 'any more' are still less than the ALL. Thus they too must cease.

Pretty much anything that has an identity is separate in some way separated from the ALL and thus part of the illusion.

As to your question, most of 'us' will continue in some form after physical death and thus are certainly still in the illusion.

[CFTraveler]

I agree. That was easy.

[ButterflyWoman]

Okay. So if you can, by whatever means, genuinely be rid of the power of the illusion of separateness, you stop reincarnating? Or maybe you can choose to do so or not.... Or to remain incarnate.... or to fully merge with the Source eternally.... Hmmmm. Possibilities.

Not that I expect anyone to actually KNOW this. Except maybe the Dalai Llama, but he's not a member here, I don't think... ;)

[CFTraveler]

Not yet. How to get him to come over and participate.
Any Tibetan buddhists here with some *ahem* influence?
But seriously, I promise I'll get into it- I just can't, at the moment.

[Caelrie]

I rather enjoy being separate with my own identity. I'm in no hurry to give that up.

[star]

I'm essentially answering from the point of view that the illusion is one and the same as the mistaken idea that there is separation. Thus in order for the illusion to cease, all separation must cease.

To end the separation, there must no longer be any incarnations as the very concept of incarnation includes separation of being from environment (not/other being).

The soul, over soul, etc. are also separate 'beings'. Even if they are not incarnate 'any more' are still less than the ALL. Thus they too must cease.

Pretty much anything that has an identity is separate in some way separated from the ALL and thus part of the illusion.

As to your question, most of 'us' will continue in some form after physical death and thus are certainly still in the illusion.

So whats going to be the choice, leaving the illusion however thats done or staying? Does it matter if you stay and play? I guess that comes with time but I can't wrap my mind around it atm.

[ButterflyWoman]

My current understanding is that one can choose to incarnate even if they're aware of the illusion, have attained enlightenment, whatever that whole thing is about. The Dalai Lama is said to be the continual incarnation of the Buddha of Compassion. He has no need to return, but he does so as to help those who haven't get escaped from the cycles of incarnation. Based on that I presume that it's possible to choose to remain as a separate (or a perceived separate) entity and return, even if you don't have to.

Sort of like choosing to remain in prison to help the other prisoners, even when you've done your time.

[Caelrie]

My current understanding is that one can choose to incarnate even if they're aware of the illusion, have attained enlightenment, whatever that whole thing is about. The Dalai Lama is said to be the continual incarnation of the Buddha of Compassion. He has no need to return, but he does so as to help those who haven't get escaped from the cycles of incarnation. Based on that I presume that it's possible to choose to remain as a separate (or a perceived separate) entity and return, even if you don't have to.

Sort of like choosing to remain in prison to help the other prisoners, even when you've done your time.
Robert Monroe writes that he believes about six thousand such people are on Earth at this time.

[star]

Yikes, I wouldn't really consider this place prison. :D I'm stuck here guys; is it just a choice of prefrence?

[CFTraveler]

Depends if you consider desire to be choice or preference.

[Caelrie]

Yikes, I wouldn't really consider this place prison. :D I'm stuck here guys; is it just a choice of prefrence?
It's been my overwhelming experience that everyone here on Earth is here by personal choice.

[ButterflyWoman]

Yikes, I wouldn't really consider this place prison.
I do, but I mostly just thought it was a useful metaphor.


I'm stuck here guys; is it just a choice of prefrence?
I don't know. I suspect I came here deliberately, but then a lot of people go to prison deliberately, too, they just don't necessarily realise that's what they're choosing... ;)

Seriously, I do believe we come on some sort of choice, but it may be, as with so many things in the material world, a choice we don't fully appreciate that we're making, at least for some souls.

[iadnon]

Hi:

There's a book by Ophiel (Art and Practice of Astral Projection) where he relates that in his astral trips he saw people living in houses resembling their earthly replicas.

It seems they didn't realize they died, so they went on doing their lives in the astral.

Yes, it must be weird to appear in an another world where matter is plastic and things appear just by mere thinking. But look at our dreams. I've had dreams where I was feeling odd, but I didn't want to wake up because of some attraction.

That's all. I just wanted to point out that quote.

Bye!

[DeleterJoe]

Perhaps you are experiencing this and every other incarnation that you will ever be at the same time, and once you die the illusion will be complete from every perspective and you will be once again one, since I’ve heard time is a construct in the physical experience and it doesn't exist on the other side, all experiences are simultaneous, that is why you can access information from past and future lives they are all happening in the now.

But than again I could be wrong. lol I do love identifiers, but that could just be the ultimate insecurity, i.e. a want to persist in the illusion of separation.hm... perhaps the identifier the simplest one being, I'm. then the question,Who am I? Then the persistent state of the perpetual illusion that comes about answering this, I'm... identifiers (my friend refers to them as adjectives,though we have talked about that as well, are all measurements also insecurities? Since the only way to measure something is to measure it against something else, a state of separation from said thing, i.e. not being one therefore you need to reinforce the illusion of separation through adjectives, identifiers, and measurements, all being the same things) . hm... don't know,sorry if that makes no sense, just rambling.

Perhaps everything that can be identified and is identified is all God, and aslong as one thing holds on to an identifier separate of the one concept, theentire illusion will remain.

But still who is to say the illusion is bad, wrong, or should ever really begotten rid of? I for one love being Joe.

[ButterflyWoman]

Perhaps you are experiencing this and every other incarnation that you will ever be at the same time
That is my understanding now, although that's a somewhat simplified version. This thread was originally from 2008. And, yes, all is God (Source, Universal Consciousness, One, Whatever), and the separation is ALL illusion. Such is my current understanding. I do not see the illusion as "bad" or "wrong" or anything else of that sort. It just is what it is, and it's possible to see beyond it, and when that happens, things change and are experienced in new and interesting ways.

It's interesting to see this very old thread revivied, though, because it's a reminder of just how much HAS changed in this life story, for this point-of-view that is "me".

[sherlocksgirl]

My understanding is that you cannot be separate in any meaningful sense after death and that separation is something that only really exists in the physical reality, i.e., here. I don't know about reincarnation, it's not something I really have any experience of, but from what I've seen I personally believe that you only reincarnate if you have too much negative energy to be able to go through the afterlife process. If we do all reincarnate then between lives you would be within your personal unconscious (your own private portion of the astral), which is also where the afterlife process takes place - you don't go beyond that area as a separate being.

Funnily enough I've been pondering on something related to this today so it felt like sort of a sign-post to come across this thread. I was shown recently that when you have unconditional love for someone you're connected to them forever but I can't seem to figure out how that could be in any way meaningful when after death we're all One anyway. I thought it might be to do with some sort of blueprint for reincarnation from within the One but that doesn't make sense either. Anyway, I'm rambling. :angelic:

The illusion does have a purpose, it's part of a process of purification - a way for Us to safely express Our self-destructive side and to gradually become less so.

[CFTraveler]

The problem with this idea is that according to many experiencers' observation of the afterdeath process, the etheric phase (and possibly astral phase) of the process is physical- that is, the etheric is composed of energy and possibly the astral- enough anecdotal evidence exists to support this idea- that the whole 'life review', 'adaptation' and 'belief system territory' process, even the 'park' (where the deceased begin to affect their enviornment deliberately' is a scenario in which time and space appear to exist (as experience), which perpetuates the illusion of separation. Any time you see some sort of evolvement the sense of separation is necessary to be able to see it- change, time, space, are what 'separation' is- it may be essentially illusory because we are one, but enough experiences support the idea that this illusion persists at least for some time (notice my use of the word 'time' in this context) is perceived, or at least reported.
I think ultimately, once all this evolution and adaptation and reincarnation is past (there come temporal allusions again), then more than likely all sense of separation goes away once the deceased 'cross the bridge' to whatever, and maybe no one has seen what happens next because separation stops being created/perceived....
.02