Robert Bruce's model ... Phasing model

[question]

I was just wondering how Robert's model compares and contracts with the phasing model (Monroe, Moen, "Frank"...).

Robert states there are 7 planes of conciousness: Physical, Astral, Mental, Buddhic, Atmic, Anupadaka, Adi.

The phasing model uses those funky numbers, F0-F27(and higher..), or FoC1-FoC4.

?#1. I believe the modern phasing model states that the "Astral" is actually our subconcious mind. So projecting into the astral you don't really meet other spirits, blah blah, but they are actually your own subconcious manifestations. How does Robert and other experienced ones feel about this?

?#2. According to the expert phasers, directly above or higher than the Astral is a place where "others" really do reside. "The park", etc. I get confused here because RB states above the astral is the Mental realms. Frank describes FoC4 as a state of seemingly no tangibility; it sounds a lot like the "Mental" plane to me. Is this correct in saying FoC4 is what RB model calls the "Mental" plane? But where would F27 "The park" be on Robert's model? Is F27 actually what RB calls the astral? But in his book I read that his child and others were residing higher than even the mental and buddhic planes.

Basically, I'm confused. When a whole bunch of experienced experts tell their experience and they contradict, ...I don't know how to describe the emotion felt. A little confusion melded with sadness and lack of motivation, with a dash of despair, skepticism, ...

I'd like to hear from you all, then I have more for discussion.

[Apex]

A lot of that is discussed here:

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewto ... ht=phasing (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=577&highlight=phasing)

[question]

Thanks for that link, though actually I've already read it. :lol: While it was an interesting thread, it wasn't what I was looking for really. I just skimmed it again to be sure.

I'm looking for all the experienced people here to share their perspective on if the astral is really "the subconcious mind" or if it's really an "external" area of conciousness or whatever, as stated in ?#1; and how people think the models of plane/conciousness line up and who is where and what, based on their own experience, perspective, and perception, as stated in ?#2.

[question]

Well it's been a week! Surely people could share their experience?

[sash]

I'm not that experienced in this area so this is purely my opinion.
But I believe that the astral is the internal world, and each projection is a divisioned awareness of the collective unconsciousness combined with the subjective elements of both the individual and collective subconsciousness.
The reason I posted this opinion is that I'm not sure if anyone knows the true answer.

Also, I do not think that consciousness can be "external", by its very nature as being consciousness.


Warm Regards,
Sasha

Well it's been a week! Surely people could share their experience?

I didn't bother with Franks Model as from what little I have seen it's a direct copy of Monroes Model, but by definition of astral, "the Park," would be astral, it is a place where consciousness has made a sort of setting, and this can be done in both astral and mental planes. "Astral," as talked about in Franks methods is actually a pre-mental plane where a person is phasing between a personal "plane" of existince.

Now this Next part is important: Frank Clearly stated he has not explored OBE much, astral as in defined in Roberts Definitions is directly "above" this, and as such the two are NOT the same thing.

As for spirit manifestations: yes, you often do see manifestations of your aspects when projecting. Even in "higher" planes this can still occur simply because time and space is not the same as we think of it here.

Basically, to get the most out of mixing systems together you have to remember that it is actually all one big universe. Some people seperate the universe into quadrants, and some people seperate the universe into types of planets and life. If you mix the two terminologies a person would think the two clash, when really they don't.

[Ascendant]

I'm looking for all the experienced people here to share their perspective on if the astral is really "the subconcious mind" or if it's really an "external" area of conciousness or whatever

I'm not experienced, but I have heard that the astral or ethereal organs of the body--the chakras or energy centers--are actually aspects of one's personality and mind. If so, then this might go along with what you're talking about.

[CFTraveler]

Well, if we're all part of one Universal Mind, then everything we perceive (or give importance to) in our lives are aspects of our subconscious mind- -At least in one of the many metaphysical theories out there- So why wouldn't the chakras be any different?
On the other hand, it has been noted that in most chakra systems there is an endocrine gland associated with each chakra (the pineal for the 3d eye, for example.)
Of course, if you believe that your astral body (or soul, or whatever you call it) gives form and function to your material body, then it makes perfect sense.
This is a comment on:
I'm not experienced, but I have heard that the astral or ethereal organs of the body--the chakras or energy centers--are actually aspects of one's personality and mind. If so, then this might go along with what you're talking about.

[question]

Thanks everyone for the responses. What I meant by "external conciousness" was, if I went into the "astral" and talked to someone, would it be a real person or being, or would it be an aspect of my own manifestations. Like those who state the "astral" is only "your mind", therefore you aren't talking to your friend or other spirits, you can't interact with "other" "people". You know what I mean? But a lot of it is starting to come together, thanks. I guess it really is all just terminology.

[Chris]

Thanks everyone for the responses. What I meant by "external conciousness" was, if I went into the "astral" and talked to someone, would it be a real person or being, or would it be an aspect of my own manifestations. Like those who state the "astral" is only "your mind", therefore you aren't talking to your friend or other spirits, you can't interact with "other" "people". You know what I mean? But a lot of it is starting to come together, thanks. I guess it really is all just terminology.

The phasing approach doesn't actually mean the astral only exists in your mind. It means external reality also exists in your mind. By this I mean, external reality is simply another point (locale/focus level) on the spectrum of consciousness. When we go OBE, we simply move our attention to another point on this spectrum of consiousness.
The reason the phasing model says we don't leave our body, is due to it's perception of what reality is. Reality is a mind construct based upon certain perceptions (inputs), so even if we move out of body, we are still within a mind construct - we have simply shifted our awarness slightly away from the 'reality' location of this spectrum.

[CFTraveler]

One thing about phasing that I can't quite wrap my head around is the numbering- Why can't it be f1, f2, f3, etc. It seems you have to be some kind of engineer to figure them out. 8)

[question]

Thanks everyone for the responses. What I meant by "external conciousness" was, if I went into the "astral" and talked to someone, would it be a real person or being, or would it be an aspect of my own manifestations. Like those who state the "astral" is only "your mind", therefore you aren't talking to your friend or other spirits, you can't interact with "other" "people". You know what I mean? But a lot of it is starting to come together, thanks. I guess it really is all just terminology.

The phasing approach doesn't actually mean the astral only exists in your mind. It means external reality also exists in your mind. By this I mean, external reality is simply another point (locale/focus level) on the spectrum of consciousness. When we go OBE, we simply move our attention to another point on this spectrum of consiousness.
The reason the phasing model says we don't leave our body, is due to it's perception of what reality is. Reality is a mind construct based upon certain perceptions (inputs), so even if we move out of body, we are still within a mind construct - we have simply shifted our awarness slightly away from the 'reality' location of this spectrum.

ah, though I read Frank's website thing and he says "the astral" (what he calls focus two) does not proove life after death. And the crew of followers seem to look down upon the "neg" concept, saying if you believe they can't hurt you they can't...because they're only your manifestations, no individual entities outside your very subconcious mind. I've seen often how focus 2 is refferred to as "the individual's subconcious mind."

[Chris]

ah, though I read Frank's website thing and he says "the astral" (what he calls focus two) does not proove life after death. And the crew of followers seem to look down upon the "neg" concept, saying if you believe they can't hurt you they can't...because they're only your manifestations, no individual entities outside your very subconcious mind. I've seen often how focus 2 is refferred to as "the individual's subconcious mind."

In Franks model, he classes F2 as a form of self created astral realm (perhaps the place where lucid dreaming occurs?) But he classes F3 as what most would consider the 'astral proper', perhaps the same as Monroe's F27 - the place where people go when they die. He thinks that people can meet other projectors or entities in F3.
I'm not sure I agree with his theory of F2 being totally self generated, but I have a feeling that kind of view of negs might be true ie something can only have control over you if you let it (even if untentionally through fear), Monroe said similar regarding the astral body could not be destroyed or harmed (in Ultimate Journeys).

[NickJW]

Frank and monroe's model:

F1 = C1, F3, F10
F2 = F10, F12, F15, F21
F3 = F21, F22, F23, F24,25,26, F27
F4 = no direct translation

[CFTraveler]

F1 = C1, F3, F10
F2 = F10, F12, F15, F21
F3 = F21, F22, F23, F24,25,26, F27
F4 = no direct translation

That's what I'm talking about! :roll: :( :!:

I think I'll make up my own system, one only I understand-
1- Boring plane- RTZ
2- Pretty gardeny bucolic plane- With or without birdies- fairies optional.
3-Cartoony plane- Colors are groovy- Perception shifts and you see colors to indicate energy type.
4-Outer space- can be realistic or cartoony. Depends on your mood.
5-Undergroundy place- You go underground (obviously) and find a Victorian landscape. Surprising!
6-UFO visit- This is when you project up straight into an UFO. Kind of looks like a stadium with big windows, and when you look down you see your house. Confusing.
Enough of this.

[Chris]

F1 = C1, F3, F10
F2 = F10, F12, F15, F21
F3 = F21, F22, F23, F24,25,26, F27
F4 = no direct translation

That's what I'm talking about! :roll: :( :!:

Welcome to the present
of reductionism ;)

Thanks everyone for the responses. What I meant by "external conciousness" was, if I went into the "astral" and talked to someone, would it be a real person or being, or would it be an aspect of my own manifestations. Like those who state the "astral" is only "your mind", therefore you aren't talking to your friend or other spirits, you can't interact with "other" "people". You know what I mean? But a lot of it is starting to come together, thanks. I guess it really is all just terminology.

To answer your question in as short a description as possible: You can be doing one or the other. In the astral and other planes your mind is not inside a body and thus it can manifest it's unbalance in many ways, so you could be talking to yourself in the astral, however you will generally know when this happens while astral even if this understanding does not carry over to the physical, IOW when you project if you are talking to yourself and know it while projecting, this knowledge might be lost while going back to the physical body.

On the flip side, there are definitely spirits out there and if you want to meet one you will. There will also be other projectors out there and while finding them is a problem if you become experienced you will eventually run into them.

Just remember=external spirit will manifest a feeling of something new and fresh, a spirit manifested from your thoughts will feel like one, and you can test each type out. a spirit manifested from your own thoughts will have trouble pinpointing things you don't allready know, while an external spirit will have a better chance of knowing, but keep in mind even external spirits are not all-knowing and thus it's best to ask several such questions and only expect one to be right. Also, don't ask questions concerning anything that might be up to your own interpretation in the astral. Most spirits will allready assume you know this and as such when they say "this is what is over there" they are going to be talking to you in a language foriegn to the physical body and because of that your physical body will, at first, have a hard time remembering that.

[question]

aye 8)