Looking for books about the subtler details of meditation

[Korpo]

On a sidenote: Anybody know "Mindfulness in Plain English"? Is it a good book, worth the read?

If not, what is?

I'm looking for books that intricately describe the fine subtleties and states encountered in meditation in plain English. What happens to your breath, to your thoughts, to your emotions, to your body, to the sensations, what changes how, what arises, what moves out of awareness, how your perception changes...

Optimally described by an experienced person instead of taken from any other source.

Because while many books describe techniques, most if not all cannot accurately describe what you find. How can then the practitioner accurately "verify" the progress, the experience, anything? I know there are people who like to take this from ancient or older scripture, but to me that just means you can not even be sure in hindsight, because often enough our interpretation of a language that is no longer ours is at best errorprone.

This may not be the best example, but I actually read Bardon who wrote in my mother tongue, and the language does no longer fully decode, which seems to show in the English translations which struggle with this as well AFAIK. So how can we even hope to decode a text that was written many generations ago in another culture, another time, by a person of a very different world view and level of development?

I'd rather look for books that actually can accurately describe this in the terms of these days. Anybody know some?

PS - I'm not interested in any "meditation poetry" where basically people endlessly describe something without saying anything. I'd love a book in Robert's style - just the facts, explained modern and straight-forward. No quantum theories either. ;)

Thank you,
Oliver

[CFTraveler]

Is it possible that some experiences cannot be described so that everyone understands them because of their subjective nature? I've had some that left me with a big case of the *wow*s but when I describe them there's nothing that spectacular.

[Korpo]

I don't think so. ;)

If somebody feels that they rather give techniques because the experience is hard to describe or they don't want to fill people with expectations, that's a choice. It's okay for some.

But I don't think there should be books who do, actually. I've seen books from people that are accomplished meditators but simply cannot describe - I don't think that's a failure of the experience to be describable at all, but of the author's talent and skill.

Oliver

[CFTraveler]

But there are people (who ask often enough) who just want techniques from people who are accomplished, and don't care to know what to expect. Surely you don't mean to say they shouldn't have the option?
And there is also the meditator who thinks he's giving a good description but in fact isn't?
Being a book editor must be hard....

[Korpo]

I'm not looking for those because I'm not one of those. There are plenty of books for them. I've seen them. I'm looking for the other books. If there are any.

Oliver

[Tom]

Okay. What are you planning to accomplish with meditation?

[Neil Templar]

Aunt Clair should write a book.
that would be some read! :shock:

[Korpo]

Okay. What are you planning to accomplish with meditation?

I want to learn the workings of the mind. How emotions and thoughts get created, how to relax them away, how to resolve the conflicts in my inner world and find lasting peace. I'm looking for the telltale signs along the way and for the specific mind phenomena that will lead there.

Thanks,
Oliver

[Tom]

That sounds like a lot of long term goals and I don't really see a way of measuring how well it is working. Do you have something more short term in mind?

[ButterflyWoman]

I want to learn the workings of the mind. How emotions and thoughts get created, how to relax them away, how to resolve the conflicts in my inner world and find lasting peace.
I don't think you'll find that in a book. :wink:

[Korpo]

Let's try a different approach of explaining what I look for:

I want to collect information about the mind in meditation. Its observed phenomena, its workings, what happens along the way and why. I want books that approach meditation scientifically, not only from the outside, but try to nail down the experiences and methods in a scientific way.

I know that the meditators of India and China have made progress there. I know that at the root of Chan and Daoist meditation there is a precise knowledge of this. I already found some sources about this. But I want to find more.

I have found some answers, but I want a wider spectrum. There is more to know about energy than to move it around. There is more to know about the subtleties of different energies, not just how to play with them, but what they are, where they lead. There is more to know about thought, mental energy, consciousness, emotional, emotional energy.

It cannot be that there aren't more books about this. I want to read books that include the why, give an outlook of what happens, share information instead of prescribe only things you do.

Oliver

[Louise43]

This may interest you:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ken+Wilber&search_type=

It's a writer called Ken Wilber who is more of a philosopher than a Guru type or 'how to' writer. I am currently reading one of his books called "The Eye of Spirit" which gives a general overview of his writings, a philosophical model he has called Integral. I am also waiting for another of his books to arrive called "The Spectrum of Consciousness" so I can't comment on it yet but it certainly looks interesting and he has grabbed my attention.

Hope it's of interest,
Lou

[alwayson4]

I like robert bruce's Astral Dynamics. :D

Has anyone heard of this book?

In it, he talks about trance, which is the ultimate in meditation.

[Korpo]

Surely you jest... in many many ways.

BTW, trance is not the goal of meditation, it's just a set of states of consciousness.

Oliver

[alwayson4]

I meant to convey that trance is the best form of meditation. In other words, if you want to really meditate, learn how to trance from full waking consiousness and abide in the stillness of no mind as robert bruce describes.

If you "want to learn the workings of the mind", trance is the only way to go, as all the energetic systems of the body, and all the futile aspects of the mind are laid bare.

Im not sure many people even understand what the goal of meditation is.
If you want a good description of the "goal", I would suggest "Silence of the Heart," by Robert Adams.

[Korpo]

Do you have actual experience of this or do you refer to something you read?

Oliver

[Tom]

Do you have actual experience of this or do you refer to something you read?

Oliver

You asked for this ... you see, in Theravada Buddhism there is a painfully detailed description of mental factors and mental events including a detailed description of the transition into jhana called Abhidhamma.

http://www.abhidhamma.org/

The main page has a link both to "contents" and to a forum you might find interesting. You will find links to translations of the actual Abhidhamma. This is the painfully detailed version of everything, and it is intended for people who are a lot smarter than I am. :)

[Korpo]

Thanks, Tom. I will definitely take a look.

The comment about "Experience or sth you read" was addressed to alwayson4, though. :)

How about you, Tom, what do you, exactly, practice?

Oliver

[Tom]

My big thing has been breath awareness meditation with the idea of learning to experience "the watcher". There are the experiences you have, the awareness of the experiences, and the awareness in the moment of being aware of having experiences. It is like lucid dreaming but the lucidity is while awake - just know what you are experiencing while you are experiencing it, because it creates a gap between the awareness and the experience. As the gap increases, you begin to see that your body, your emotions, your thoughts, and even your mind itself are not you. The process goes on until nothing is left that you can call you. At that point everything will be reversed - you are not separate from anything or anyone. That's the funny thing about zero and infinity. The breath is useful because you have it with you no matter where you go. It is a convenient point to be aware of, much more reliable than your thoughts and emotions can be.

[alwayson4]

Do you have actual experience of this or do you refer to something you read?

Oliver


actual experience

[Korpo]

alwayson4,

From hours of trancing continuously my experience is that trance is not the key ingredient, but happens along the way. I was capable of trancing well rather soon, but trance is not the secret of meditation, but only one of the things that happens along the way, IMO. While I got some interesting experiences during trance, only meditative training gave me experiences that are results of meditation, like increasing one-pointedness, detached observer state, etc.

I personally think that the key is more training the use of your awareness:

* Focus on a single thing continuously.
* Being capable of attaining a state of detached observation, like a meta-awareness.

Pretty much like Tom said.

What Robert describes is meditation according to the principles of pure concentration, what Tom described is meditation more along the lines of mindfulness. It seems to me for observing the mind mindfulness might be more appropriate, which I came to think also because of personal experience.

This requires training the mind, and trance itself does not help with it. I had trances where the incessant chatter just went on, the mind sped up or slowed, but the practice bestowed no peace. I think trance alone cannot do that or is the key. An untamed monkey mind stays an untamed monkey mind in trance, too, according to my experiences.

IMO trance is tuning to another frequency band, but it does not change the awareness perceiving that band. Meditation is actually changing the observing awareness gradually so that it can observe what actually is going on by detaching like Tom described. Trance just shifts the mind's primary focus out of the physical. If the mind is untrained, it still just goes on and on and not much is gained, IMO.

Oliver

[Korpo]

PS -

I had one particular experience during using Hemisync tapes. Time would randomly slow down or even seem to stop. A definitive sign of a rather deep trance. Between sentences that Monroe said an arbitrary time passed, seeming like minutes or longer when in fact but only seconds. On one occasion even Monroe's voice slowed to half speed. Such are the distortions of trance.

At the same time my mind was overcharged, bored, unruly, agitated, bored. All characteristics of the monkey mind. The trance did not produce a meditative state, it just changed my mind's "location" on the frequency band of human experience, skipping into ranges where time perception ceases. But it was still the same unruly mind as before.

Opposed to that meditation and focus on an object can bring periods of prolonged stillness, where the chatter ceases as the mind focuses more and more on the object and less and less energy is directed at the chattering awareness. I could perceive how the mind would slowly turn away from external senses and redirect awareness into the object at hand. I could feel my focus narrowing, which I believe was the beginning of one-pointedness.

Also observation can lead to totally different perceptions, where my mind would gradually perceive itself detached from ego voice, emotions and thought. Being capable of perceiving thoughts and the ego voice as separate things that are not me, but which I could perceive from "a distance". First the thoughts started racing, then the mind detached and let the thoughts race, everything went by but did no longer sap my energy and grab my awareness. My awareness amusedly touched upon things that came up and went in a sense of "How interesting" but without being engrossed by it. Then things suddenly slowed and I could observe a single thought as something concrete and separate. My mind's detachment had led into a state where awareness decoupled itself and observed the mind it is usually enthralled into.

IMO none of these states are actually enabled by trance, but instead enabled by the kind of awareness you cultivate in a given moment.

Oliver

[Korpo]

My big thing has been breath awareness meditation with the idea of learning to experience "the watcher". There are the experiences you have, the awareness of the experiences, and the awareness in the moment of being aware of having experiences. It is like lucid dreaming but the lucidity is while awake - just know what you are experiencing while you are experiencing it, because it creates a gap between the awareness and the experience. As the gap increases, you begin to see that your body, your emotions, your thoughts, and even your mind itself are not you. The process goes on until nothing is left that you can call you. At that point everything will be reversed - you are not separate from anything or anyone. That's the funny thing about zero and infinity. The breath is useful because you have it with you no matter where you go. It is a convenient point to be aware of, much more reliable than your thoughts and emotions can be.

I would be quite interested in the specific techniques you used.

I have a hard time understanding techniques like "noting" or "labelling", also I still wonder what the exact knack is with observing for example your thoughts. I would be glad to hear more about this gap, because to me this point seems vital to what you explained, and perhaps you could rephrase a bit so I can learn more about it. How to induce that gap.

Thank you,
Oliver

[Tom]

You are right. The gap between observer and object is vital. Usually there is a tendency to blur the distinction between the two, especially with thoughts and emotions. People will say "I am angry" or "I am sad" or "I am confused" and that is the actual experience - if you are identifying with a thought, an emotion, or a physical sensation then the gap is not there. Have you had a stomachache or a headache that you have taken medicine for, and the pain is still there, but somehow it seems farther away and you can't really care about it as much somehow? That is like what I mean by the gap ... you are here and the experience is over there, so it is not you really. At the same time you are aware of it and you can be aware of being aware of it. The content does not matter. It is about watching as you watch yourself. I wish I could remember the details of a study I read about. There is a section of the brain that responds when you develop this sort of awareness and it grows with use by forming new connections between the neurons. You are literally re-wiring your brain when you cultivate this ability, and the ability grows stronger as this re-wiring takes place. I think I read about it over on another forum (http://www.transparentcorp.com/community/forum/) because someone had posted a thread about the article. But to get to the point, I sort of borrowed from the Sedona Method. When you hold an object in your hand, you can blur the feeling of where your hand ends and the object begins by squeezing it tightly. After a while it can become difficult to let the object go. If you do get your hand to relax you can let go of the object by turning your hand over and letting it fall. There is another way to hold on to the object, though. You can let it rest on your hand, without squeezing it, so that when you want you can hold the object and when you want to let it go all you have to do is tilt your hand and it will roll off. It is possible to hold on to your thoughts and emotions in the same way, recognizing that you have them but they are not who you are, and that you can let them slide away at any time. What you have to keep working at is the tendency to grab the object again right away after you let it fall and put it back in your hand. You may have to let go many times before you can let it stay gone. You can let it go whether you have held it for twenty seconds or twenty years. Where I went with this was that I held objects in my hand - literally - because even though I would feel the object in my hand I would not be likely to mistake myself for something like a pen or pencil or stapler. I am not an office supply. It took a bit of practice before I got the idea of the observer, the observed, and the gap between the two. Being the watcher is about being present and watching in the gap. It is a step above the observer even and the experience is more continuous.

Labelling didn't work for me, either. :)

[Korpo]

Thank you very much, Tom, you're helping me a great deal.

I had a strong experience of that gap, but didn't induce it. I just know there is a kind of mental tension that just habitually holds on in an iron grip to the usual stuff, and that it can also be let gone of. I just could not find the "lever" to make that happen - to drop that link that habitually holds on to thoughts.

Thanks for your insights,
Oliver

[alwayson4]

Korpo

The mind will constantly chatter, but keep focused on whatever you are doing at the present moment throughout the day. Do not identify with thoughts. Thoughts are not you. Thoughts and the mind are like a burned rope, seemingly useful, but when grasped fall apart.

Thoughts are necessary sometimes, just dont identify with them to the point of exclusion like most people do. Identify with the current reality of the present moment, the only thing that ever is. Thoughts then start to take on a different quality...a quality of being icing on the cake, rather than the cake itself.