Mahamudra

[Freawaru]

Hello All,

Recently, I have become very interested in Mahamudra teachings. It is a tantric meditation lore, Tibetan Buddhism (Vajrayana). You know, read a book, tried some techniques.

Is there anyone who knows about, has heard, tried it, had some experiences, compared to other meditation techniques, compared teachers and schools, etc? Please let us discuss! :-)

[Tom]

Mahamudra means "Great Seal" - which doesn't tell you much about it. The preliminaries are called Ngöndro and you will usually receive an initiation either before or after those preliminary exercises. Some schools have 4 or 5 exercises within the category of Ngöndro and they must all be done at least 100,000 times each. Some schools require 108,000 and some require 111,111 repetitions. Usually the Ngöndro from one school will be accepted by another if for whatever reason you have to switch. Then after the Ngöndro you have two stages of Highest Yoga Tantra - the generation stage and the completion stage. During the generation stage you repeatedly imagine going through the process of dying and merging with the Clear Light and becoming a Buddha. The idea is to break the habit of seeing yourself manifested as an ordinary human being. When you are not meditating, you must see all beings as perfect Buddhas, see all sights as beautiful, and hear all sounds as mantras. Every time you see a person, place, or thing as ordinary you are actually breaking your vows. Fortunately you have the 100 syllable mantra of Vajrasattva, and as long as you say it at least 21 times per day you break even on building up bad karma from accidentally seeing anything as ordinary. Then when your teacher tells you that you are ready you may move on to completion stage work. The two most popular ways to go at this point within Tantra are the Six Yogas of Naropa - and tummo, inner fire meditation, is one of them - and Mahamudra. I've preferred to read about the Six Yogas of Naropa and within those primarily tummo, but I can tell you that the Mahamudra is about actually merging with a Buddha and in actuality taking on the characteristics of Buddha's body, speech (energy), and mind. It is called Great Seal because you seal these characteristics into yourself. In the generation stage this was all done in imagination. At the completion stage it is to be done in actuality. A book can give you the details, but it is working with a teacher which is required in order for the actual experiences to be passed along. It can't be just any teacher, either. It has to be someone who has actually gone through the process and attained full Buddhahood. When you also reach the end of the path it is your turn to pass it on. This is the point of having an unbroken lineage. At each generation there must be someone to reach full Buddhahood and be acknowledged for having done so, so this person can pass it on to the next generation. Eventually the lineage breaks and no one will be around to pass it on anymore, but even then the books will remain. That's like having a perfectly good computer and no electricity to run it. Sure, you can try to do the practices anyway, but it isn't suggested.

If you'll take some advice, try Soto Zen. Learn the practice called zazen, and just do it. Like with Tantra, the purpose of Zen is to attain Buddhahood in this lifetime, but there are not so many stages and you do not need all the initiations and empowerments along the way. You still need to put in decades of meditation, of course, but you can do it now without waiting for a teacher. The most important thing to keep in mind is that if anything interesting seems to be happening while you do zazen, just go back to focussing on your breathing and let whatever it was just pass through without being affected by it.

[Freawaru]

Tom,

thank you very much for your reply. :-D

I am currently more into Tibetan techniques than into Zen. This is just a personal preferrence and probably temporary but as I walk this path basically intuitively for the moment I will have to not follow your advice even though I consider it good in general.



Then after the Ngöndro you have two stages of Highest Yoga Tantra - the generation stage and the completion stage. During the generation stage you repeatedly imagine going through the process of dying and merging with the Clear Light and becoming a Buddha.

Yes, my teacher calls this technique "dissolving the elements". I have not reached the Clear Light by it, yet, but it helps me to enter dream lucidly. So I don't think the time is wasted ;-)



The idea is to break the habit of seeing yourself manifested as an ordinary human being. When you are not meditating, you must see all beings as perfect Buddhas, see all sights as beautiful, and hear all sounds as mantras.


Does this mean that the energies ("winds") are staying in the Central Channel?



Every time you see a person, place, or thing as ordinary you are actually breaking your vows.

Yeah, I am an oath-breaker again and again :oops:



The two most popular ways to go at this point within Tantra are the Six Yogas of Naropa - and tummo, inner fire meditation, is one of them - and Mahamudra. I've preferred to read about the Six Yogas of Naropa and within those primarily tummo,


Which book did you read? I read "Clear Light of Bliss" by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I know that he and the Dalai Lama are not quite happy with each other at the moment but I read it anyway. I like the writing style for it is fact, fact, fact, without the little anecdotes and sweet talk one gets in most popular books on the subject. Still, I would like to compare to other Gelug teachers. Is there a book you recomment?



but I can tell you that the Mahamudra is about actually merging with a Buddha and in actuality taking on the characteristics of Buddha's body, speech (energy), and mind.


That is the game, isn't it? ;-)



Eventually the lineage breaks and no one will be around to pass it on anymore, but even then the books will remain.


Or another Buddha will incarnate to start new linages. Truely, I don't see this as a problem. I read about how even those who have not attained full Buddhahood yet can reincarnate with control so I don't see why All-compassionate Buddhas should let us alone just cause some teachers die at the wrong time or something.



The most important thing to keep in mind is that if anything interesting seems to be happening while you do zazen, just go back to focussing on your breathing and let whatever it was just pass through without being affected by it.

Frankly, I am very carefull of not using breathing techniques, I do not even use breath as a focus point. It tends to raise Kundalini for me. I prefer to reach tranquility first and only THEN focus on breath or anything else that might wake the serpent of fire. On the other hand when I am in Zhine I think it is more usefull for me at the moment to enter the Central Channel, which is why I am currently into Mahamudra.

I know that zazen is a good and recommended technique but my own experiences with it are not favorable. Probably there is something wrong with me. I also don't practice Anapanasati for example but instead the Tibetan version of Satipatthana, it comes naturally to me anyway.

[Tom]

It sounded to me like you meant that you picked up a book and thought it might be fun to try a few techniques, not even going in order. :)

Dzogchen often requires a Ngöndro now, and it also has the equivalent of generation and completion stages called something like trekchod and togdal. The spellings can vary wildly. The important thing is that in the Tibetan branches there is a lot of learning and memorizing to do and you have to be under the very close guidance of a teacher, but the result if you go all the way is full Buddhahood in this life or immediately afterward in the between. Zen also aims toward full Buddhahood in this life, but there are no stages and signs to follow. You don't have the same relationship with the teacher, but it can be nice to meet for coffee and talk every few years. I used to like the Tibetan style but then I found that although I enjoy Buddhism very much I can't stand actual Buddhists for very long at a time.

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a favorite author of mine. He is very precise and technical. Lama Yeshe gives the same overview in "The Bliss of Inner Fire" but Geshe Kelsang Gyatso really maps out all the chakras, channels, and symbols for you in "Clear Light of Bliss". They go well together, really. Lama Yeshe emphasizes "tasting the chocolate" and his book gives you a good place to start, letting you know what is vital and what you can skip while you are getting established. It feels a bit like memorizing a volume of encyclopedias to me without being able to actually just see all the chakras, petals, and nadis as they are being described. Actively visualizing the Tibetan letters in various colors is the biggest stretch for me after 64 branching nadis here, 32 here, 8 here, ... :)

The conflict between Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the Dalai Lama goes back to the 5th Dalai Lama. It was about whether the branches of Buddhism should unite or continue to compete against each other. Can you imagine a football league where all the teams are on the same side? I think that friendly competition is the way to go, because it pushes everyone to tests their limits. It was the books, though, that really sealed the deal for me. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is very generous in his books, and the current Dalai Lama just tells you enough to function as a preview. Supporters of the Dalai Lama can get really annoyed when you say to them that the Dalai Lama is just another politician, no better than any other, who has an agenda and just uses the whole enlightenment thing as a side attraction to get people involved. It doesn't help that he talks like Yoda from the Star Wars movies, either.

[Freawaru]

Tom,


It sounded to me like you meant that you picked up a book and thought it might be fun to try a few techniques, not even going in order. :)


Well, I MIGHT have done so indeed :lol:
It was what I did years ago, picking up a book on hatha yoga and trying it. So, though it was not so in the case of Mahamudra it might have been ;-)



You don't have the same relationship with the teacher, but it can be nice to meet for coffee and talk every few years. I used to like the Tibetan style but then I found that although I enjoy Buddhism very much I can't stand actual Buddhists for very long at a time.


As far as I know my teacher is no fully accomplished Buddha and she does not give those initiations, nor would I want her to. I will go as far as I can without them. I don't feel save having someone else meddle with my energy body.

As you see, though I practice it I am not completely agreeing to all aspects of Tibetan Buddhism as it is taught today. ;-)

What I like is the technical, the theory, in addition to the techniques. I like to have levels and theoretical explanations and terminology to describe the ineffable. Just as you I found out that this preference for mysticsm is not shared by many Buddhists, though. It seems for many people Buddhism is a means for finding an identity: "I am a Buddhist", you know.

If I have to lable myself I name it a mystic. And for me there is no basic difference between Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc, mysticsm. I loved it that some TIbetan lamas share this universality, Tarab Tulku for example, also Thubten Yeshe teached that Tara is identical to the Catholic Mary, mother of God. Of course, they suffered attacks from other Tibetan Buddhist because of this.



Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a favorite author of mine. He is very precise and technical. Lama Yeshe gives the same overview in "The Bliss of Inner Fire"


Ah, good :-)

I read a book on Green Tara by ThubtenYeshe and as I said I like his attitude.



but Geshe Kelsang Gyatso really maps out all the chakras, channels, and symbols for you in "Clear Light of Bliss".


Yes, he is very precise.

I have a question regarding this. There are some slight differences to other tantric doctrines, for example usually the Central Channel ends at the Crown Chakra, but he describes it as descending to the Third Eye again. Do you have an idea why there is this difference to other tantric doctrines? I mean, shouldn't it be clear to people who can sense the chakra-nadi system?



It feels a bit like memorizing a volume of encyclopedias to me without being able to actually just see all the chakras, petals, and nadis as they are being described. Actively visualizing the Tibetan letters in various colors is the biggest stretch for me after 64 branching nadis here, 32 here, 8 here, ... :)


If you ask me in a way the main purpose of this is indeed to impove the visual memory. Once the Central Channel is energetized one cannot use visualization anymore. These "programs" are gross mind anyway. But visualization helps the visual memory to devellop and because of the necessary concentration tranquility is established. It is a trick. Tranquility (zhine) is necessary to control the "winds" and the improvement of memory is develloping certain chankras that are necessary to get a communication between the gross, subtle and very subtle mind.

And then there is - of course - the necessity of develloping the ability to concentrate one-pointedly on several objects. Gurdjieff also had some really challenging excercises for this. Some Bön dream meditation techniques are also used for this goal, for example when one emanates and merges with several dream bodies simultaniously during a lucid dream.



The conflict between Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the Dalai Lama goes back to the 5th Dalai Lama. It was about whether the branches of Buddhism should unite or continue to compete against each other. Can you imagine a football league where all the teams are on the same side? I think that friendly competition is the way to go, because it pushes everyone to tests their limits.


Dunno, but for me mysticsm is not a matter of competition. It just happens. Competition and the pattern of ambition that goes with it is a gross mind matter. The only point regarding meditation that I can see is that ambition helps one to concentrate and thus to reach zhine.



It was the books, though, that really sealed the deal for me. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is very generous in his books, and the current Dalai Lama just tells you enough to function as a preview.


Yes, I wondered about this, too. There is a lot of fear involved, I think. It seems to me Geshe Kelsang Gyatso fears that the teaching will be lost forever and the Dalai Lama fears the teaching migh fall into the wrong hands (all this Shugden business). Then again, I might be completely wrong about this.

[Tom]

I have a question regarding this. There are some slight differences to other tantric doctrines, for example usually the Central Channel ends at the Crown Chakra, but he describes it as descending to the Third Eye again. Do you have an idea why there is this difference to other tantric doctrines? I mean, shouldn't it be clear to people who can sense the chakra-nadi system?

It isn't just whether the shushumna channel ends at the top of the head or curves to meet the third eye chakra, which is considered a minor chakra here. For the purpose of inner fire meditation, the central channel ends with the navel chakra, where the side channels curve around to meet it in a sort of rounded 'W' shape. The way the chakras and channels are arranged and their characteristics depend on what you plan to do with them. The important thing is just not to mix different meditations which structure the channels differently, so there will not be a conflict between them. You can alternate them safely, so long as you fully believe in the map you are using at the time for the particular meditation you are using.

Being Buddhist really is convenient, as a label, for anyone who might ask. It is also nice to be able to have membership in a secret club of sorts. Too bad it isn't very Buddhist to use Buddhism as a way to prop up one's identity, though, because that makes as much sense as taking caffeine as a sleeping pill.

[Freawaru]

It isn't just whether the shushumna channel ends at the top of the head or curves to meet the third eye chakra, which is considered a minor chakra here. For the purpose of inner fire meditation, the central channel ends with the navel chakra, where the side channels curve around to meet it in a sort of rounded 'W' shape. The way the chakras and channels are arranged and their characteristics depend on what you plan to do with them. The important thing is just not to mix different meditations which structure the channels differently, so there will not be a conflict between them. You can alternate them safely, so long as you fully believe in the map you are using at the time for the particular meditation you are using.


Oh dear, now you have me completely confused :?

Problem: the idea in Advaita Vedanta is that there IS a chakra-nadi system and when it is fully develloped one enlightenes. Kundalini askends through the sushumna and descends again to the heart and showers the whole system by doing so.

As far as I know there is no "structuring". Of course one can devellop this or that nadi or chakra more than others, but the goal is the full devellopment. Your explanation sounds as if this is different in Tibetan Buddhism, that the enlightment structure of the chakra-nadi system is just one of many possible alternations and not a fundamentally different one than all the others.

Did I completely misunderstand you?

[Tom]

What I'm saying is that you might visualize the chakras and nadis one way for a particular meditation, then you may need to have a different arrangement for another meditation. Shushumna can stop at the crown chakra or it can wrap back down to the third eye. Shushumna can stop at the navel chakra or it can go all the way down to the base chakra. I've seen the chakras described as connected to the shushumna so that a syllable within the chakra is actually within shushumna as well as the chakra, and in a book on raja yoga several years ago the chakras were pictured as being connected to the central channel by a short branch. There has been more than one teacher who told me that I need to cause my chakras to stay in the centerline, on the midline of the body lined up with the hara, because they tend to drift side to side and up and down the body without such efforts. You can use more than one way of mapping out the energy body, but it is best not to mix them.

Enlightenment is a separate matter entirely; it isn't based on getting your chakras and channels to line up the right way and keeping them that way from then on.

[Freawaru]

Tom,

Ah, I think I got it now: It is all about how to configurate your Warp-matrix :lol:

You wrote you were practicing Mahamudra once. Mind sharing what techniques you practiced and what you experienced? You are into Zazen currently, right? Why is it more to your liking?

[Tom]

My involvement with Mahamudra is minimal; I wanted to go the other route in order to learn tummo. Actually, if I had my way I'd go the Dzogchen route. The Soto Zen is just to fill in the gap. At the moment my main practice is a third eye meditation.

It used to be that Tibetan Buddhism in its various forms was my favorite, but it is just too bogged down with contradictions for my liking. The nice thing about the Zen group I sometimes associate with is that all we have to do it sit down, be quiet, and look at the wall. When your purpose is to cut through the BS which is already in your life, it is really unfortunate to get stuck with a group that will just add fancier layers of BS to what you already have. I was practicing with a Tibetan-style group which favored Mahamudra for a while but all they do is talk and it is really depressing. They keep going on about how helpless and hopeless they all are and how anyone who feels otherwise is just lying to themselves.

[Freawaru]

Tom,

you know, my meditation circle is still in what I believe are the preliminaries and guess what, they are rather similar to identical to what Robert Bruce teaches. Sure, RB does not teach, say, Tara as a focus, but he teaches focusing and thus zhine. He teaches observing and thus sati (mindfullness). He teaches energy rising, no different than mahamudra. And he teaches projection of the energy body - just as Tibetan Buddhism does.

I just attended a seminar for a transformation technique that sounds suspiciously like projecting to me. The small difference is that it is done with a partner and there is verbal communication with the other person. The idea is pretty easy, one projects oneself to the shore of a river and crosses that river.

However, if it would have been just imagining it I would have had no problem. But the idea is to let symbols guide and control the visualization and I had a lot of problems with getting any "sensory" input. I mean, I could visualize myself into any scenery with a river but no river came to me when I let go. Also, I had problems - especially at first - to stay in the body. I kept seeing myself from behind or above.

It seems to me that this is also the reason why I have trouble projecting while in trance. And if I succeed I usually don't have eye sight. This problem does not arise when the projection happens spontaniously, dunno why. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I see a lot of similarities between TIbetan Buddhism and "Astral Dynamics", especially regarding the techniques.



It used to be that Tibetan Buddhism in its various forms was my favorite, but it is just too bogged down with contradictions for my liking.


For example?



The nice thing about the Zen group I sometimes associate with is that all we have to do it sit down, be quiet, and look at the wall.


My husband was practicing Zen for some time and he uses to say the idea is to get so bored that you enlighten just to have some fun :lol:



When your purpose is to cut through the BS which is already in your life, it is really unfortunate to get stuck with a group that will just add fancier layers of BS to what you already have. I was practicing with a Tibetan-style group which favored Mahamudra for a while but all they do is talk and it is really depressing. They keep going on about how helpless and hopeless they all are and how anyone who feels otherwise is just lying to themselves.

Yes, that sounds countraproductive. :-(

The Tibetan Buddhism my teacher teaches (Tarab Tulku was her teacher) is also full of healing techniques. I think it all goes well together :-)