optimal brainwave state for astral projection

[TalkingHead]

Hi Robert,

I recently purchased a device from bruce gelerter that can put you into any brainwave state through direct electric contact almost very quickly. He would not tell me te best frequency for astral projection because he feels lucid dreaming can accomplish better things and A.P. is too dangerous. Could you tell me what you think the best frequency might be?

I would certainly like to talk to you more about this,

Tom

[CFTraveler]

Robert and his Co-author Brian Mercer have answered this question in many of their published books and online documents.
For the first question, the answer is an approximate 4Hz. It's approximate because some people achieve the OBE exit state in theta, or in delta. In other words, everyone doesn't react the same way, but generally this is the 'target' frequency for brainwave entrainment.
http://www.astraldynamics.com/search.as ... enceID=422 (http://www.astraldynamics.com/search.asp?Search=frequenc&Type=1&ReferenceID=422)

BTW, I hope when you are talking about electric stimulation, I hope you are talking about binaural beats or tones, aka hemispheric synchronization, and not direct electric stimulation, which should never be done without medical/professional supervision. Sounds dangerous.

As to the second part of the question:

He would not tell me te best frequency for astral projection because he feels lucid dreaming can accomplish better things and A.P. is too dangerous. Depends on why he considers it dangerous. Here are some thoughts from Robert on the issue:


OBE is natural and everyone does this every time they sleep. This is seldom remembered, but many do remember some experiences. Spontaneous remembered OBE is common. I've been having these since I was 4 years old. I know many people with a similar history.
...
it became obvious, if you study the enormous amount of data available on experiences of duality during OBE, that the physical body mind is never left completely empty. All OBE methods project a copy of consciousness exterior to the physical body, including Bardon's methods.

To leave the physical body mind empty would be scientifically testable, if a person using this method were hooked up to brainwave sensors. Theoretically, such a person would flatline, and there would be no consciousness and hence no dream activity, etc; nothing beyond autonomous nervous system activity, etc. No tests like this have ever been done, not that I am aware of, so we must rely on experiential and anecdotal evidence until that time comes.

In Bardon's time, and up until I discovered and published my work on the mind split effect, it was widely believed that astral projection involved the separation of the animating consciousness or soul of a person, leaving behind an empty shell or husk. Some went as far to call this 'soul travel'. My work shows this assumption to be understandable but inaccurate. In this respect, Bardon's work was well in line with popular magical thought of that time, including the 'empty body' assumption.

I do not believe that Bardon's methods actually cause the animating consciousness or soul to leave the physical body and mind an empty shell. This goes against a lifetime of experience studying OBE. It takes a bit of a mind flip to wrap your head around the mind split effect and all it implies with regards to OBE, but it is supportable with a large amount of experiential evidence, and even modern scientific evidence for that matter, as per the below.

For example, Michael Persinenger's work of inducing spiritual experiences, like a sensed presence and feelings of fear (sound familiar), when certain parts of the brain are exposed to certain frequencies of EM fields. This method appears to induce an astral projection in an awake but relaxed person, causing feelings of fear and of a sensed presence. If you compare this to the mind split effect as I have laid it out in my works, this 'artificially induced' OBE type experience begins to make sense. We are all dealing with the same mechanism and phenomena.
...
One main cause of misunderstanding relating to my work is simple dogma. Many people adhere so strongly to the work and methods of a teacher that the teacher's words become fact, the law, and anything beyond those words, or that appear to disagree, are deemed wrong. This is a part of a serious problem in our world today, particularly in the fields of the spiritual and metaphysical and magical, because if one respected teacher makes an error, this will be used as source material by those who come later, by writers and teachers that follow the original words of earlier teachers. In this way, error is propagated.

Science offers a better way, in the meaning of 'scientific method' and 'research' where data is continually checked and rechecked for error. This is absolutely necessary. There is also 'experiential evidence' to consider, in such things as energy work and OBE that are not easily measurable by modern scientific means. However, what is phenomena today will be science tomorrow, including OBE and energy work.

We need to learn from all of the earlier great thinkers and teachers, but we must not follow their words dogmatically. As said, everything is open for debate and testing and retesting.

Robert Bruce - 2007

-extracted from http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=6764

-That's if the basis for his assertion is the belief (false, I might add) that the physical body is left 'empty' during an OBE.

OBE and Lucid Dreaming are essentially the same, the basic difference is that you're unconscious during the exit and wake up after you're 'in the locale'. (see):
http://www.astraldynamics.com/search.as ... eID=267#12 (http://www.astraldynamics.com/search.asp?Search=Lucid&Type=1&ReferenceID=267#12)

If his basis is about the fear factor, then here's a few more thoughts from Robert about this:


Most people, as children, begin astral projecting spontaneously early in life. This is a natural phenomena. But most people lose the memory of this type of experience for various reasons - this is discussed in my books on this subject at length.

Countless observations and experience tell me that everyone projects every time they sleep. Domesticated animals also project, I have frequently observed, eg, cats and dogs. I have not had the opportunity to observe farm or wild animals.

Full astral projection does cause a sensation of fear during the exit. On this aspect I agree with Rawn. I experience this and many people I work with feel some degree of fear during the exit out of body. This may be, as Rawn states, to some extent due to natural fear of death triggered by separating from the physical body mind.

This sensation of fear is also caused by the energies and the mechanism involved with astral projection. For example, when an astral projection is in progress, and the astral double is near its physical body mind, the physical body mind will experience feelings of fear and dread, often sensed as coming from a particular direction. The physical body will be fully or partially paralysed at this time, eg, what I call 'waking paralysis' and what others call 'sleep paralysis'.

This shows the mind split effect at work, in that two awake copies of mind exist simultaneously during astral projection. This is of course only noticeable when the physical body mind awakens during an astral projection, while this is in progress.

I have experimented with the mind split during astral projection and it the physical body mind is awake and I connect with this, strong feelings of fear and a type of energy feedback are sensed by both the astral body and the physical body mind.

(I have extensive chapters on OBE related fear, and the mind split effect, in my book, Astral Dynamics, and others).
-extracted from the first link.

There are a few ways to get around the fear- the best way IMO is to become educated on the subject, to 'remove the fear of the unknown' and to study what to expect, and to experience it yourself.
I personally experience bilocation when I project, as do most routine projectors, so I know that AP is about locating your consciousness out of your body, not your 'spirit/soul' as animating consciousness.
If you study Robert's works, you'll see that most of the techniques for mastering AP incorporate LD achievement, and the main diff. is to 'stay aware' for the exit.

[TalkingHead]

BTW, I hope when you are talking about electric stimulation, I hope you are talking about binaural beats or tones, aka hemispheric synchronization, and not direct electric stimulation, which should never be done without medical/professional supervision. Sounds dangerous. r"]

Actually it is a device for direct cranial electric stimulation.. usually you receive the electric current through your earlobes. Here is the link to the device:
[Removed link as it breaks forum rules for min. post count]
viewtopic.php?t=186 (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=186)

I guess you'll see its on the expensive side.. but because this is "microcurrent" which is what the brain already produces this is supposed to actually strengthen brain pathways as opposed to wearing out neural connections. But if you can find direct evidence that this isn't the case I'd certainly be interested.

[Robert Bruce]

G'day,

To add to what has been said here,,,,

I would ask this question of Brian Mercer...in the MAP forum...and or go to http://www.bwgen.com and ask there.

Robert

[Korpo]

but because this is "microcurrent" which is what the brain already produces this is supposed to actually strengthen brain pathways as opposed to wearing out neural connections.

This sounds like a nonsense argument to me. The brain produces these currents in highly refined patterns a device cannot reproduce. Unlike the device the brain "knows what it is doing". I wouldn't use a device based on such thinking. I mean it is equivalent to saying "It is surely no electric shock, it just (randomly) induces currents into the brain similar to those the brain has anyway..."

Oliver

[Robert Bruce]

G'day,

if this device does not involve altered state inducing sound, please email the details to workshops @ astraldynamics.com as I'd be interested in hearing of this.

Thanks, Robert