Kunlun, ancient daoist practice

[0range]

Korpo you might find this particularly interesting.

I've been lurking on the tao bums forum and they have been raving about this energy practice and how powerful and effective it is. I will be getting the book and trying it out. here's some info for those who are interested
http://www.risingredphoenix.com

Kunlun Nei Gung

In this nei gung method the dormant potential of the students body, mind and spirit are awakened. This method is also referred to as the "spontaneous bliss" practice and is the subject of Lama Dorje's first book, Pillars of Bliss.

Kunlun Nei Gung is a rare form of Taoist breathing practice that has its origins in the 7th century. This practice was created by a Taoist nun while searching for self re-enlightenment in the Kunlun Mountains of China. This practice – the search for the secret – has both inner and outer meaning. It signifies the universal inside (microcosm) and universal outside (macrocosm) which through practice become one, revealing to the inspirant the "secret within the secret".

This treasure of re-enlightenment is composed of three basic levels of breathing. The first level opens the body's nervous system, which is comprised of 72,000 nerves or nadis. The result of this opening is the awakening of the golden dragon, or magnetic body.

The second level involves breath retention practice that generates and circulates the body's magnetic field, removes impurities and awakens the brain's dormant potentials.

The third level composes "waterfall" meditation that brings the practitioner back to the physical level of being. This part is for calming and relaxing the body, mind and sprit of a person.

The end result of Kunlun Spontaneous Nei Gung system is to awake the practitioner's magnetic potentials, the "bliss-body", the expression of the dormant potential of the mind, and to understand the one law that governs all matter, energy, and form.

This practice is not written in any form. It is an oral tradition and must be transferred from teacher to student by a "mind-to-mind" form of transmission. There are hidden keys given to the inspirant after each level of practice is mastered. With over 30 years of Taoist, Tibetan, Mongolian, Hawaiian and American Indian traditions, I am able to improve and improvise on the original practice and make it more adaptable and useable for modern men and women.

[Korpo]

While I think that mind-to-mind transmission is possible, I am wary of techniques that are taught only this way. Everything should be out in the open today.

I have been very wary of breath retention, too.

This is strange - it mentions Tibetan practices and the entry-level seminar is taught by "Lama Dorje"?

Oh, and I came over this:


When the Level I activates, practitioner will experience tremendous heat and sweating. Uncontrollable trembling, laughing and crying may follow this. This is due to the body is being physically and mentally purified through the process. Other manifestations include, speaking in other tongues, light manifestation around the body, levitation, and inner, or third eye opening. Many will have heat experiences, some may have visions of divine beings, others will have the third eye open so that they will see a bright golden-white eye of light. These are but a few of the experiences.(http://www.risingredphoenix.com/subjects.html)

It also sounds a bit like Fire Taoist practices repackaged - breath retention, circulation (I bet this means "Small Circulation") and Qi sinking ("Waterfall meditation"), wrapped in mystery of Tibetan magic...

Sorry, not "my thing". ;)

Oliver

[star]

Vase Breathing will bring really strong bliss, i never got very good at it, and only got the bliss a few times on my own. :(

[0range]

it's not fire, from others i've learned its a very spontaneous qi gong..very water based. you don't control the energy, you let it control you. level 1 is just a purification process.. similiar things happen during kundalini awakening.

im getting the book soon ill post after i read through it, but the guys on tao-bums know their stuff and they've been raving about it. maybe its worth taking a second look

[Korpo]

Anything that involves cathartic releases like that is not a water method. It's pure fire.

When you look at the quote I gave about what happens during the release - crying, hysteric laughter, trembling - these are the signs you get when you put your energetic system under shock by releasing too much emotional energy at once, uncontrolled and ungrounded. This can be harmful to the nervous system and traumatising, leading to burnout.

I don't think "Kundalini awakenings" are something to be desired either. It purges by fire, and Kundalini is even called fire often enough. It releases a lot into the system and leaves you to sort out the aftermath.

All these schools that "risk it" by going down these dangerous paths are fire schools, probably even the more extreme ones. They force their ways and ignore warning signs. They develop power, but IMO not insight. And that can be more of an obstacle to enlightenment than a facilitator. The fascination with power and psychic abilities so common in these schools panders to the fear/control ego and leads deeper into its cravings.

Oliver

[Korpo]

I saw at Tao Bums they got some leg shaking and leg bouncing during the Level 1 exercise - is this what you are talking about?

Oliver

[0range]

among others yes,

here is what lead me to believe it is water based, a quote from the forum


I find that kunlun allows the front to run up and/or down - whatever it does - and energy harmonizes and then flips around up the back, and then the cycle starts over. That's not the only thing I've found the kunlun method to do, but some part of it anyhow.

I find that my orbit is more naturally open during the day just being around, more than when I've tried other methods of "practicing the orbit".

So there.

yes!

to me THAT'S what makes the kunlun practice a true water method, at least according to my understanding. the orbit does what it does without you being the doer

i agree though after thinking about it. this doesn't seem purely taoist or water at all. i sense some tantra mixed in there too, especially talks about a "bliss body", but hell I love tantra, so maybe this is my thing.

[Pneumaphor]

Orange,

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do anything. I will rather second what Korpo said because he said it well. If you're going to get the book anyway though, tell us the basic gist of the breathing exercise. It never hurts to know another one. I consider it an asset to know about holotrophic breathing, though I rarely use it. I'm suspicious that holotrophic breathing is the same thing but I hope they are different because a serious session of holotrophic breathing will really start messing with the reptilian brain down on the end of spine there and can become somewhat unpleasant as its effect magnifies. :o

[Korpo]

Whatever it is, 0range, it is not a water method. Spontaneous Qigong and water method are not the same.

I personally will stay away from it.

Oliver

[0range]

what is water method? can it be explained without me buying a book? i've bought way too many books lately

[ButterflyWoman]

When you look at the quote I gave about what happens during the release - crying, hysteric laughter, trembling - these are the signs you get when you put your energetic system under shock by releasing too much emotional energy at once, uncontrolled and ungrounded. This can be harmful to the nervous system and traumatising, leading to burnout.

That's what happened to me following my spontaneous Kundalini awakening. I was EXTREMELY unstable for a period of years (yes, years), and then I was seriously burned out for several years beyond that. I still have some lingering energetic damage from the awakening, I believe. I'm working on healing it with gentle and persistent energy work, but I don't know how successful it will be.

I'm not saying that Kundalini is inherently bad, because I don't believe that, but yes, too much emotional/spiritual energy can do very, very bad things to you. It's not something to take lightly.

[Korpo]

Oh, it's rather quickly explained. :)

The Water Method focusses on the Dissolving Process to remove blockages to unearth the True Self. It simply gently removes every negative and blocked energy until all that is left is your enlightened core being.

The Inner Dissolving Process I wrote a bit in the Meditation section about is a typical Water Method technique - gentle, grounded, awareness-oriented. While Fire methods concentrate on where to lead the energy, the Water method concentrates on where it is not moving and trying to restore the flow. Fire methods store and circulate, water methods remove.

There is of course overlap. For example in Bruce Frantzis' teachings you move energy, too, but in coordination with movement. Upward currents are grounded again, for example. But the focus is different - the main method is the dissolving process - scanning the energy body from top to bottom and removing blockages, neutralising, storing and grounding their energy.

If I look the cathartic releases of Kunlun - heat, sweating, emotional outbursts - that is what you can get with ungrounded Fire methods: A lot of energy hits a blockage and makes it go in one big release, possibly many. Since every blockage release also can be accompanied by toxin release, this brute force approach can be interpreted like shock to your emotional and energetic system - the sweating is a typical detoxification reaction, the crying and hysterical laughter typical of cathartic methods.

In a water method these would have been neutralised and grounded properly, natural flow would have been restored, like applying a bit more water pressure soaks into a sand barrier and then starts to carry it away. In a fire method you simply run as much current as you can over the wire, burning through resistance. If you are not gifted genetically/energetically with a strong enough wire, damage can occur. Side effects are typical of such an approach.

Robert's NEW is BTW a very good compromise. Since it offers blockage cleaning methods it can be used to "clean the wire" before "running current".

Fire methods are typical for power seekers, while water methods appeal a bit more to insight seekers. Fire builds power, Water relaxes. Fire creates, Water uncovers. Many meditation methods, anything where you gently focus your attention on issues to resolve them, are really Water methods, they just don't spell it out as energy work or name it like that. Many of the explicit energy work schools are more towards the Fire side of the continuum.

At least at Level 1 I would categorise Kunlun as pure (if not extreme) Fire method. If you actually aim or welcome side effects, then it is not a Water method. These are typical signs of overworking yourself, true to the goal-oriented nature of Fire methods. Fire sets a goal and works relentlessly towards it, creating it. Water looks what is there already, and uncovers it.

Both methods have the potential for enlightenment. Fire offers more pitfalls. It offers power and distracts from true insight. Both in Water and Fire you have to overcome the desire for ego reinforcement, power and attachment. But I found that many Fire schools neglect this aspect. It is very important to be aware of the pitfalls and keep the intent of freeing yourself, It is very important to see the trapping of power and minimise the use of power, to uproot the ego instead of reinforcing it.

In the end in any school you have the potential to fall beside the wayside and into the power trip. When a Water scholar uncovers the psychic and causal/karmic bodies the forces of creation and enormous knowledge is within its reach. It is a time of trial, where all that stands between you and the power trap is your own intent.

I'm always wary of methods like Kunlun Level 1 because I got burned repeatedly by methods that unwisely work with energy like that. So now I stick with what I do, Dissolving and movement Qigong, and some other methods, like for example NEW Energy Raising/Full Body Circuit or a Shielding Bubble, but I never sit down anymore to do a full half-hour of more of MCO like the followers of Mantak Chia would.

Oliver

[Korpo]

That's what happened to me following my spontaneous Kundalini awakening. I was EXTREMELY unstable for a period of years (yes, years), and then I was seriously burned out for several years beyond that. I still have some lingering energetic damage from the awakening, I believe. I'm working on healing it with gentle and persistent energy work, but I don't know how successful it will be.

I'm not saying that Kundalini is inherently bad, because I don't believe that, but yes, too much emotional/spiritual energy can do very, very bad things to you. It's not something to take lightly.

Hello, OW. :)

I believe now that Kundalini awakenings are extreme events. Kundalini and the Kundalini circuit are part of the human energy body, they are always there. These spontaneous awakening events are often called "premature" - by Robert or by the Kundalini Reiki guy at http://www.xehupatl.com. I mean, a method like Kundalini Reiki only works because the powerful energy of Kundalini is always there to be tapped into,

If what I believe is true, then Kundalini is neither good or bad, it is just a fact of life. I cannot say what makes it spontaneously rise in some and not in others - if that is part of the life plan or even an energetic accident - I cannot tell.

Many things point to this - the "rise of the Serpent Power happens on its own when the elements are in balance" (Bardon), and the strongly spiritualising component of an awakening. The true trick seems to be either to stabilise the awakening or like Robert would say to generally try to "raise your base level of consciousness". The myriads of spiritual practices enable that, but I think no one should aim for a Kundalini awakening. I even think, that if everything is falling in place and it spontaneously rises within the right parameters, when you cleaned your body and mind, nothing traumatic happens at all. I think some of Aunt Clair's writings suggest that.

In the end, for now, that is hypothesis. I cannot say why it rises in some, and why it is so traumatic in some. I'm just wary of such effects and I don't believe they are necessary to reach enlightenment or deeper insight. But sometimes they are great facilitators in people's development. You don't speed up your work, though. Cleaning up the aftermath of an awakening is surely not easier than developing yourself without one. But maybe, just maybe we need the confirmation of our powerful and spiritual nature sometimes before we do the work. I cannot say. It remains a mystery.

Oliver

[ButterflyWoman]

I believe now that Kundalini awakenings are extreme events.


Yes, I completely agree. Transforming events.


I cannot say what makes it spontaneously rise in some and not in others - if that is part of the life plan or even an energetic accident - I cannot tell.

I can't speak for others. In my case, I'm absolutely sure it was part of my life plan. It was in response to a sincere prayer and intention to... well... transform. I didn't realise at the time that this was what I was actually seeking, but it was.

Be careful what you wish for.... ;)


I cannot say [...] why it is so traumatic in some.

Sometimes birth is difficult.


You don't speed up your work, though. Cleaning up the aftermath of an awakening is surely not easier than developing yourself without one.

I agree with that. In my case, I suspect it was the only way to proceed. Completely shattered ego... very painful, like being a snail without your shell. BUT... I think that the damage was so great that the near total destruction was necessary.


It remains a mystery.

It does, indeed. One day, when I'm no longer surrounded by decaying matter (i.e., no longer incarnate), I'll understand. Until then... All I can do is clean up the aftermath and go forward as best I can and hope that the energetic/spiritual limp I have now won't be permanent. But, all in all, if the physical/energetic difficulties are the price I have to pay for being conscious, I guess I can live with it (I don't guess I have a choice ;)).

[Korpo]

Many things to ponder. :)

I recently read in "How to be an adult" that while it requires normal effort to create a major and healthy ego, it often seem to be traumatic events that lead us beyond the ego. Something that makes us realise the innate ego pain.

Like Bruce Frantzis - his spine got broken multiple times in a car accident. Reduced from a fighting master to one step of the wheelchair in one moment, he worked through this by meditating. He recovered and changed.

A traumatic youth, the death of withdrawal of a parent while young, an accident - all these things remove and destabilise our coordinates. We become spiritual seekers when something is removed, when we feel that special void that leads beyond. At least IMO.

I personally feel like off the beaten trail since age 8 when my father died, a bit removed from so many around me. Life changes during my youth make me feel the pain of ego in many ways, but I also have been told that this is the life where I can go beyond all that.

Would anyone chose to go beyond the known if we had everything we need? I have my doubts. Speaking for me, transformation is not easy, I don't think I would chose it voluntarily while in this earthly shell, but now I am willing to follow it to its end. Because I feel this unsettling urge whenever I settle, this unquenchable desire to go on, an unsatisfied hunger I cannot fully describe to live, experience and know beyond what most people might be content with.

Be well,
Oliver

[CFTraveler]

Oh, it's rather quickly explained. Now I get why the smiley face. :lol:

[Jonathan2525]

Hello orange,

If I remember correctly the infamous sorcerer Aliester Crowley had a book that taught breath retention techniques. I had it as an ebook but I seem to have misplaced it. If you are interested in this you might want to look it up. Crowley is generally well informed about such matters.


Korpo Wrote:
Would anyone chose to go beyond the known if we had everything we need? I have my doubts. Speaking for me, transformation is not easy, I don't think I would chose it voluntarily while in this earthly shell, but now I am willing to follow it to its end. Because I feel this unsettling urge whenever I settle, this unquenchable desire to go on, an unsatisfied hunger I cannot fully describe to live, experience and know beyond what most people might be content with.


Aaah the divine Nietzsche, he had such an ability to compress meaning.


"Woe implores go, but all joy wants eternity"

from Thus Spoke Zarathustra

[Aunt Clair]

Father Kundalini is cold magnetic waterfall energy which descends down the back of the spine , it will occur naturally at a stage of energy body development after the nadis have come to merge . The nadis descend from the crown to the sun . The nadis also ascend from the throne to the sun . If he is selling a system that is naturally occurring that would be sad . If oto he is sharing what he learned about it that is good work .

[Tom]

If he is selling a system that is naturally occurring that would be sad.

It sounds to me like the author is saying that it won't even happen at all without buying the book and that if you do buy the book it will only happen if you work really hard and luck is with you.

[Korpo]

I thought you had to be attuned by someone to even get there in this system?

Oliver

[Aunt Clair]

Imho , books are treasures .When I was teaching school , I told kids that books were special friends that tell us stories . In our home , we have bookshelves in every room but the laundry and the baths .

This group charges 150 /45 minutes or 300/ session .What I object to is selling people a technique via a book or a course that is naturally occurring . But perhaps that is not the case here .But I think the waterfall energy is Father Kundalini .

Drunvalo Melchiezedek is an example . He made a career by changing his surname to the name of an angel priest and then he began to sell books and courses s to teach people how to manifest a merkabah . Only everyone is born with one already . Spending $ is not going to make it grow .This sort of behaviour makes metaphysicists lose credibility and it stinks .

Kundalini energy will cause symptoms periodically through the year often peaking at the full moon . Kundalini events are not as common . The minor flows build up and it seems to me like a volcano or a geyser erupting .

Mother Kundalini is well known as cobras and dragon flames coming through Earth . Father Kundalini is new imo to the Earth . Father comes as the Leviathan through the clouds and the sea in visions . It falls like a torrent of cold water down the back of the spine . It feels like a waterfall coming down over the head and under the skin from the shoulders down the spine . It makes the head and hair feel drenched . A number of people globally have felt these kundalini events . I don't think there is anything in the vedic literature about it but I could be wrong on that account . I certainly don't believe that it is anciently known .

Our world is a paternal world with male avatars and male dominated religions and governments . I believe that 2012 is the mirror which begins an epoch of female avatars and female religions and government . Perhaps I am wrong but I think the pendalum is moving towards a more compassionate gentle way .

Kundalini begins with the father flame , golden yellow like the sun . He is fire energy . Then the comes the mother flame platinum blue moon energy . She is water . Then the son comes as the male earth avatar . These are the tri fold flame but the princess crowns the lot of them . She is green air energy . After this come the children of the princess which are rainbow coloured nadis .

I feel that the energy body follows the pattern of Kundalini appearing in all 4 elements one after another . For example , the three primary stones are the same three elements as the trifold flame , the fourth and elusive stone is the crown above the head and it is air energy like the princess .

And the body begins red earth on the right and blue water on the left . The Fire channel appears next and the last is air .

Also when the phalanges begin to colour up . The right big toe is red iron . Then comes the thumb comes as water ,lead energy . The left thumb appears as pyrite fool's gold . Finally comes the green copper big left toe .

To reach the higher planes the mystic has to dump earth and water and heat remaining air energy with fire . Air again is precious .

And the emerald tablet is green . It is about transmuting the red lower negative vibrations of Earth and the red demons of Seth .

On the right glove the fingers appear in this order ;
gold fire amoris
silver water akasha
ruby earth love
emerald air peace comes last .

So Air is precious and waited for , often appearing last of the 4 elements .

And as Robert Bruce is fond of saying every yin will have its yang . So after fire we should assume we would have another elemental kundalini . Curiously the cobra is called Mother . And when the leviathan appears as Father Kundalini he has a white beard and mustache so he is not a lady . Father Kundalini has appeared as a black haired muscular man from India and as an ancient leviathan with a long white fu man chu beard .

[0range]

you don't need to get attuned. it just helps,
its either 100 days of celibacy, or transmission.

i have the book, whoever is interested i'll scan it. PM me and i'll send
its short and simple, if you like it please buy it

http://www.kunlunbliss.com/

[mack]

I ended up ordering the book, 15 bucks is quite reasonable. So are you saying Orange that 100 days of celibacy is equal to the transmission? Some of the forummers of the Tao board seem to think that without the transmission you have nothing to work with.

[0range]

i'm sure the transmission helps either way. but essentially you don't need it.. just like you don't need shaktipat to raise your kundalini, it just helps... alot

have you had any results yet?
i've been practicing for a week and i'm starting to like it. its very simple and the physical sensations make it interesting

[Aron]

I must confess that when I found this thread I get hooked about Kunlun. So when the Kunlun "procession" 8) passed Sweden I participated in the Kunlun workshop. I have now trained for about three weeks and I still feel okay despite my ailment. If I also will grow in one way or an other is still for me to early to have an opinion about.

[Tom]

So how do you hold your arms in place for an hour at a time?

[Aron]

So how do you hold your arms in place for an hour at a time?
Oh that's a deep Kunlun secrets :lol: :lol: only known by the practiser.

[Tom]

So how do you hold your arms in place for an hour at a time?
Oh that's a deep Kunlun secrets :lol: :lol: only known by the practiser.

Somehow I know enough to ask the question and not enough to answer it. :)

The only thing I can think of is to start with 5 or 10 minutes and build up to that hour.

[Aron]

Hi there you have the right answer but you still ask me... :shock:

[Chris_com28]

I'm going to try this again. With the heat and this virus I'm getting really annoyed.

Anyway...Could Tom give us his opinion on Kunlun? We've heard Korpo's, but I think having a second opinion would be good. You both seem like really educated and experienced people so it would be good to get a discussion going with you two. Tom mentioned Kunlun to me a while ago and seemed to think it was pretty good, so it would be interesting to see if his opinion has changed, especially after what Korpo has said about it. I keep meaning to do it but it seems a have a natural adversion to it. I also practised it once and felt pretty bad so I don't feel inclined to to it. I should get back to doing some more energy work again but my heart is going through some difficulty again.

[Tom]

My plan was to start doing Kunlun, and when it works it works quickly for me, but I kept finding reasons not to do it. Really, though, it wasn't about the Kunlun. At the moment I have been working on deciding what I want to do with my life and what needs to be fixed and how to go about these things. If or until Kunlun becomes a serious priority for me I'm just not going to find the time every day to do it.

[Korpo]

So, what do you do every day, Tom?

I remember you once saying that you did immensely benefit every time you did the 5 Tibetans, but had not the time and motivation to do it regularly - correct?

Oliver

[Tom]

My goal is to work up to an hour per day of yoga and another hour per day of meditation. I guess that answers my question about the Kunlun and ever getting around to it. The 5 "Tibetans" give good results and they seem to be a good warmup for other exercises.

[star]

I had some physical symptoms from the practice the few times I did do it. Motivation and time is my killer too.

[TalkingHead]

I just started practicing this too. All the cool kids were doing it. I have been noticing some beginning energy though.

Whoever wrote the intro to the book talked about seeing people practicing go flying into fences and such. I'll believe it when I see it.

[Chris_com28]

I guess it would make sense to practise it if it woudl solve all my problems. Right now I have too many to cope with and probably requires a different technqiue for each problem. This is kind of depressing and so I don't do anything.

[Korpo]

I guess it would make sense to practise it if it woudl solve all my problems. Right now I have too many to cope with and probably requires a different technqiue for each problem. This is kind of depressing and so I don't do anything.

So it is better to wait forever?

A big heap of problems is by picking one and working on it. Next time round the heap is a bit smaller and you a bit more confident.

No technique saves you from that. No technique does the work for you, either.


Whoever wrote the intro to the book talked about seeing people practicing go flying into fences and such.

What do you mean?

Oliver

[Tom]

There is a story in the book about how the guy who taught the technique in the book caused a person to be unable to walk away from a fence. The explanation was that the person was "magnetically" stuck to the fence and the more effort went into getting away from the fence, the harder the person would bounce back into it.

[ranlinra13]

I find your discussions fascinating about the different methods - but I would like to interject.

I too believe that "forcing" energy when the mind, heart and body are not yet ready is dangerous. I've seen many wonderful teachers, practitioners fall into this and then fall into ego - control - power.

I too believe that one should "Start" with a cleansing method - like your water method or something else.

But, in many ancient initiatiations - you need both. You need to prepare your body, cleanse blockages, cleanse emotions. You need to be able to truly look in the mirror and see you - your physical self and your higher self. I'm a relatively good person. I truly care about others and others see my boyfriend and me as very giving, caring people.......but...when I feel insecure, when I feel pressed into a corner, when I feel weak, I can be a not so nice person. When I was working on some major soul retrieval work, I was forced to see these sides to me. I had to see the ugly as well as the beauty. This helped me understand people's actions more. Than I had to see the ugly of past lives. I found a very dark person who played with magic and controlled by the same power I wished to have. I saw the darkening of my soul and the sorrow that I caused. This gave me a huge lesson about the balance of energy......and of course extra healing to do because of that lifetime.

With the cleansing, because my guides were helping me gain the knowledge and power that I needed to have in the very near future then - I became a little more emotional. Cried a lot. Needed to be more solitary to contemplate my actions, my desires, my future. I went to a cleansing period too fast - and it had a bit of back lash - because with cleansing, you have to be emotionally ready also. I was then initiated into water energy.

But, after lots of cleansing (not at all finished though), I began working with fire energy - serpent energy - and yes - I saw my connection with the reptilian side. I questioned this because of all the negative press about reptilians and through lots of journies - realized that I do have that energy - and with this energy I could help save souls that are stolen by the reptilians because I have a similar energy marking. Sort of law of attraction thing.

And so I was initiated in fire energy. Yes - did I have a bit of burn out - yes a bit - but even that helps me help others and somehow I grew new electrical pathways and I think it was meant to be. (Scientifically - we could build new pathways when part of the brain or other body parts are burned out)

So, then I began my initiation into water and fire......and then fire and ice. And the Fire and Ice was the most powerful and the most memorable experience in my life.

I don't read minds - unless I need to to help someone. I don't move things - well unless I really need to. I have blown out fuses with my energy - but when people ask me to do something on the spot - prove your "power" - I can't because I don't want to.

My power is more in astral realm or dream space or energy work for the earth. And I do need the Fire energy to help.

So, thank you so much for the interesting topic and advise - but sometime if you want to save souls, heal, do energy work - I believe we need to practice both - but agree that you should do these practice in moderation and when you are ready.

[star]

Sorry to get off topic, ever heal or help heal a past life of its problems? It is nice to help out those spirits too. They appreciate it.

[ranlinra13]

Yes - I think it's important to heal your past lifes. I think it's helpful to do that if you work on "becoming one" again. A teacher received information from Spirit about connecting with past lives and healing and bringing them together with you to complete the soul - to become one again. She had information about when our Soul was Whole, then we wanted to learn through experience everything - so our Souls split and started leading parallel lives - some in future earth timelines some in past - all really existing at one time. So, to empower our soul, we would reconnect and become consciously aware of all lessons learned.

I found this fascinating and there are books out there that are really good. Can't remember the exact names - but something like the Akashic Field and the Power of One or Oneness. Some theories of Einstein are in there. It truly is fascinating.

Thank you.

[TalkingHead]

There is a story in the book about how the guy who taught the technique in the book caused a person to be unable to walk away from a fence. The explanation was that the person was "magnetically" stuck to the fence and the more effort went into getting away from the fence, the harder the person would bounce back into it.

Yea that one. People have really been raving about Max Christenson (lama dorje), but I've had trouble believing in magical powers ever since I found out Santa Claus does not exist. It looks like the guy has seminars in LA which isn't too far from me, so I'll have to try and verify it myself sometime.

[CFTraveler]

I've had trouble believing in magical powers ever since I found out Santa Claus does not exist. Hey! :x Them's fightin' words.

[star]

My experiences show me that not all past lives exist on earth, at least for me. I don't mean as ET's either. I'm referring to other dimensions where humans exist, the physics may be wildly different... how would I reconcile
some in future earth timelines some in past - all really existing at one time
With a past life as a magical creature in another dimension? I'm not saying its not possible. its just the most confusing thing ever. Even more so becuase i have worked with the spirits of my past lives that are dead. Its such a brain twister.

[CFTraveler]

It is. Imagine the fact that we can't seem to remember all our dreams. Imagine trying to reconcile something so much bigger. :) The fact our brains don't explode is-miraculous. :wink:

[Korpo]

Independent of the power of that Sifu Max/Lama Dorje/Max Christensen guy, I found something else I found disturbing about this Kunlun practice - a technique called "Red Sun" that induces the feeling of dying by lack of air. It is supposed to bring great "progress"...

From the technique I only want to quote the last sentence:


See if you can break the barrier.

This is only my opinion, but the feeling that leaves me with is not a good one. It gives me a certain impression about what the guy would do and what he would teach, and what could happen to a person that follows his teachings without a lot of scepticism or with an overeager enthusiasm.

I mean, you can follow such a teaching, but be aware that it is risky and you may get burnt, the same feeling I have about the original exercise where you stand on the balls of your feet for 20 minutes - works for some, harms others. Can bring out more than you can handle - depends on who you are.


He who stands on tiptoe
doesn't stand firm.
He who rushes ahead
doesn't go far.("Tao Te Ching" as translated by S. Mitchell)

;)

Oliver

[maynoth]

if anyone has watched the video for max, its hilariously bad. I cant post the link but its so bad it hurts.

[TalkingHead]

The website is http://www.kunlunbliss.com/indexvid.html

Too bad I couldn't get the video to load for me.

While I imagine the video is hilarious.. I have to admit I have been doing the practice. No major results to report, but when I close down at the end I do often feel an enjoyable energy. I'm still unsure whether I should incorporate some NEW into this practice or try to maintain "complete openness" as suggested in the kunlun book.

Even if all the people surrounding this practice are ridiculous, I'm going to work on it and see if the method is at least useful.

[Tom]

It works, when I actually do it. The visualization helps to set the mood and makes it easier to feel the energy. I find that while wearing a pendant such as the q-link or the silver bullet by xtrememind.com that the energy flow is stronger and easier to feel. First being in the right mood - relaxed and alert - helps. Then move your awareness around your body while doing the actual practice. It doesn't really seem to say much about what to do in your head while sitting there holding your arms up for almost an hour. The detail about raising your ankles / heels off the ground, leaving the toes and the ball of the foot in contact with the floor or ground really makes a difference. It is supposed to act as a switch to turn on the flow of energy. It can probably be explained in some way in terms of regular chi kung, but I'm not familiar enough to do that. Getting back to my main point, by touring your body and feeling your energy as you would do with m.b.a., you will find that from the beginning you obviously have an energy body and you will feel energy. Then you will find while doing the technique that there is a current of energy flowing through you. It can take less than a minute when I am practicing under ideal conditions and it normally takes two to five minutes to get started. It can take up to fifteen minutes when I start out feeling tense and stressed and am farthest from my ideal mood for the practice. The biggest obstacle toward working up to an hour of actual practice (not counting the visualization or the twenty minute cool-down) is that although I enjoy the technique I don't like the emphasis on not being able to mix it with other techniques without having energy conflicts resulting in sickness. Or so they say. I like being able to fall asleep at night listening to binaurals and giving myself reiki. I want to start doing yoga as a way of getting regular physical exercise. Further, I also enjoy working with the third eye as a separate technique rather than trusting the Kunlun to do it for me. A little bit of focus on the third eye as I go through my day is nice. In fact I do it while on the computer as well. Some people who are much more sensitive to energy than I am feel a difference in my writing depending on how centered in my third I it is that I happen to be at the time of writing. And did I mention that I like to combine Kunlun with NEW while I'm sitting there doing the technique? :) The thing about Kunlun that most intrigues me is that I have wanted to learn the actual tummo meditation (rather than tummo reiki) for a long time and my attempts over the years have led at best to a slight feeling of warmth after a long period of practice. Within a week of small daily attempts at Kunlun, however, I get the gradual buildup of heat that Lama Yeshe describes as being correct for tummo in the book The Bliss of Inner Fire. The sensation of bliss is a bit hard to recognize; it is a pleasure of sorts that is different because there is no reason for it and it is not the result of thinking or anything with the senses. I tend to resist it instinctively for some reason. Watch for that. If you don't get heat or bliss - they both creep up on you without your even noticing - it could be that you are blocking them. Maybe EFT would help even without having a memory of what sensations you are blocking, if you find that you are blocking them. I don't know. I have a clear recollection of how both qualities feel and if I follow through with Kunlun I can use the feelings to get back to them even through the resistance.

[Korpo]

The detail about raising your ankles / heels off the ground, leaving the toes and the ball of the foot in contact with the floor or ground really makes a difference. It is supposed to act as a switch to turn on the flow of energy. It can probably be explained in some way in terms of regular chi kung, but I'm not familiar enough to do that.

Moving your weight on the balls of your feet raises your energy upward or activates the upward current, moving it to the heels sinks your energy or activates the downward current, staying on all points of the foot balanced is neutral. Moving back and forth in balance can by itself help getting a circulation going.

I know it from "Marriage of Heaven & Earth" and "Gods Playing in the Clouds". Shifting your weight adds to the energy flow when moving up or down.

Possible explanation for the standing on the balls of the feet is that pressure is applied to the "Bubbling Spring" points. This raises energy by itself through these points which are located in the center of the balls of your feet.

Oliver

[Korpo]

Hehe, Tom, didn't you use to have paragraphs? That was way easier on the eyes. ;)

Interesting read. I personally think that while the technique should work in general, there's a lot of BS marketing around it that IMO is not justified. The principles behind standing on the feet are not that impressive and known. You would probably get the same result if you raised energy continuously up the spine without caring to bring it down. Half of a small circulation or Robert's full storage circuit. Someone on Tao Bums told me that is taken care of by the sitting afterward so that's nothing to worry about... :roll:

I like bliss sensations, too. They are soft and subtle and suddenly I feel like smiling, not euphoric, but gently well, without any apparent reason. That's great.

Oliver

[Tom]

Often I find myself feeling a bit :oops: when I have to try to explain a technique like Kunlun. My guess is that the marketing is so overstated for similar reasons. There doesn't seem to be that much actually new to the system, and yet somehow it seems to work differently than anything I have tried.

The first level of three is a sitting posture using a chair. Sitting on the edge of a chair with your back straight and your feet on the ground, your left hand is in front of your navel chakra with the palm facing up. The right hand is facing down and held in front of the throat chakra. There seems to be a couple of inches between the hands and the body. The elbows are a bit out from the body to open up space in the armpits. The tongue is in the usual place at the roof of the mouth. Then lift the heels to activate the flow of energy. It has been a while since I read the book to check if I've forgotten anything. When you are done, the next step is to lower the heels and then the right hand is placed over the navel chakra and the left hand is placed over the right. If it was the other way around for women, placing the hands on the stomach, I've forgotten.

Today I'm in a bit of a hurry and just kept finding things to say. Normally I am more organized.

[Korpo]

The first level of three is a sitting posture using a chair. Sitting on the edge of a chair with your back straight and your feet on the ground, your left hand is in front of your navel chakra with the palm facing up. The right hand is facing down and held in front of the throat chakra. There seems to be a couple of inches between the hands and the body. The elbows are a bit out from the body to open up space in the armpits.

If this was done standing it would be one of the classical transitionary moves of Taiji. It is receptive move that would enclose the opponent's arm and from the little I know capture the opponent's motion and unsettle the opponent by adding to it, veering the opponent off during a turn.

Imagine it like this: Your lower arm would go below the opponent's striking arm, the upper arm above and then they would close in and take the opponents arm in a kind of lock. While this happens the fighter turn from the hip and pulls the opponent out of posture. Or so I'd assume - I never have done a fighting application ever. But I can look it up in a book at home.

As any move in Taiji this also has some sort of energetic meaning, but I don't know about any source that details the energy flows in this move.

I definitely feel heat the moment I lifted my heels. When not, everything feels more neutral. I tried to put the heels down - heat gone - heels up - heat present again. I'm not perceptive enough to tell which specific meridians or vessels get activated. I have to try it again when I have more time and can observe better, because ATM I'm a bit distracted.

Opening the armpits and maintaining a fist's distance between the hands and the body are classical Qigong principles, as is bringing the tongue to the roof of the mouth. Opening the armpits is for enabling free energy flow between body and arms, opening up the shoulder gates (more). Maintaining the distance is AFAIK important to avoid some unwanted exchange effects between the hands and the body, forcing the energy to actually go the intended way instead of back into the body at some point. And touching the roof of the mouth "connects" the Small Circulation.


When you are done, the next step is to lower the heels and then the right hand is placed over the navel chakra and the left hand is placed over the right. If it was the other way around for women, placing the hands on the stomach, I've forgotten.

That's a typical Qigong closing move, you find it for example with Mantak Chia IIRC. He also insists on different hands on top or different clockwise/counter-clockwise motions for men and women. It should bring excess energy back down into the Lower Tantien.

Oliver

[Korpo]

I've looked into how they describe Kunlun level one practices in the book, and several things come to mind:

1) The celibacy

100 days of celibacy (for men) are commonly prescribed in Daoist precultivation practices of the fire school. This is related to storing abundant Jing (Qi of the physical body) by retaining the semen. This has been prescribed in "Qigong Meditation: Embryonic Breathing" by Dr Yang.

They also use the usual sexual terms involved in describing their mystical and energetic practices as all other Taoist sects which believe in the "spiritual embryo" practices. Including "the heavenly consort" and such.

The technique given for the "Chi Lock" (which should prevent ejection on having sex) and the "Upward Draw" are similar to Mantak Chia's "Big Draw" and his practices with sexual energy. From my experiences with it I cannot recommend this at all. I also read that these practices can cause to the reproductive organs - which is not hard to believe. Keep in mind that Chia also has practices for "Chi Packing" in his "Iron Shirt Chi Kung" where Chi is strongly packed - around the organs, into the bones, etc, and this has also been reported to be harmful for some.

The problem with all these "abundant Chi" practices is that they force a lot of energy into one aspect of the human being to enforce some aspects of development or a quicker progress. Not everyone is made for that, and there are risks involved for mental stability and physical health.

The Kunlun book is in the "best" tradition of this as it does not acknowledge risks in here, and does only include minimal warnings (like: Drink no alcohol before practice.)

I remember Dr Yang warning that this path of cultivation cannot be entered after a certain age, surely not when being middle aged. The younger the easier. On the other hand most schools of meditation have no such requirement, testament to their less forceful nature. This seems to imply risks in the practice that can be more easily borne by the robust health of a youth...

2) The main practice

As discussed before.

There is a detailed list of all the "beneficial" things that might happen, and all are very good signs, of course. :? Most of them actually describe effects more commonly associated with a forced and unnecessarily cathartic clearing of blockages. This includes "leg shaking", involuntary "arm movement", "speaking in tongues", bouts of "laughter", take "spontaenous yogic postures".

About the yogic postures I would reason like this: Yoga postures were developed to maximise flow in certain energy channels of the body. If you forcefully open up such a channel the body might naturally react by adapting a posture of "least resistance" to prevent harm to itself. Call it a security protocol if you want.

To me most of these signs seem to indicate that Kunlun pushes parts of the energetic system to its boundaries, and you have to deal with what happens. This includes suddenly reactivated emotional material, blocks in your body, and so on. I see also a real risk of damaging part of the Chi-transporting channels of the body here - damage to the nerves, for example.

The question is if this is sustainable development, and I would expect some people to be fine with it. Knowing the state of my own body, however, this is not for everyone. There are many powerful Qi practices out there which can come at an emotional or mental price later on - and who will help you then?

Basically this practice triggers the upward current all the time for prolonged time. This is definitely forceful as the body is constructed to circulate Qi, not to massively draw it upward. Parts of the description are like this practice is designed to force open the crown chakra by leading a good deal of energy its way.

A particular funny phrase was this: "Sensations of crawling ants, or itchiness under the skin. This is when you have sufficient chi to break the resistant abilities of the skin." Suddenly this classic sign of blockage in the finer Qi-transporting structures of the skin (see Robert's "cobweb sensations") is a sign of "sufficient chi". I doubt it - I have cobwebs in the most blocked parts of my body, with the least Chi, not the other way round. The ones in the face are gone for years now, but the ones in the legs persist. Not very convincing.

The hint to "never stand up during your practice as you may faint" is not very promising.

3) Conclusion about Kunlun level one

In total I think this is a very rushed practice. It contains - as many Qigong instructions of its vein - no indication of how to deal with what might get unearthed. It contains minimal advice that is taken from meditation in the vein of "be like a child", "just let it be", "observe", "smile" and whatever, but no real instruction of how to deal with what comes up in the practice.

No signs are mentioned that might indicate wrong practice, which is not surprising, as other practices might list these "results" as them and as an indicator to slow down, ground more and similar things.

All in all this seems to be a practice designed for rapid, forceful and cathartic purifying, and I think the material given is insufficient to develop a practice that can responsibly handle its outcome. Not for everyone.

Oliver

[TalkingHead]

I like being able to fall asleep at night listening to binaurals and giving myself reiki
-Tom


How do give yourself Reiki Tom? I guess I'm not fully familiar with Reiki either.

[Tom]

First you receive a reiki attunement. The attunement process connects you with the energy that is reiki. There are three levels. In the first level you might rub the palms of your hands together as a way to get the energy flow started. There are other ways, but that is the one I learned. The second level uses a symbol to activate the flow of energy in your hands. In the third level you use your intent to activate the flow and you may send it through any part of your body of you have a reason to do so or even your entire body. If my knee were hurt from over-exercising I might want to send reiki to my knee either by putting my hands on my knee or by sending it from my knee. What I was mentioning in the case you quoted was when I give myself reiki while going to sleep. I put my hands on my stomach and start the flow of reiki to my subnavel storage center, then watch the energy flow to keep it going as I drift off. It is an easy way to get in a daily self-treatment and daily self-treatments are the best way to continue to improve your ability to channel reiki.

[CFTraveler]

Mmmm... Ive been doing the hand thing for years not knowing it had anything to do with Reiki. Does it mean I'm attuned to #1?

[Tom]

There is a self-attunement process. It can be done either through intent or by asking your Higher Self for attunements. It is possible to get a manual to familiarize yourself with a system and then self-attune to any reiki system. It tends to be easier if you have experience working with energy because at that point you will be more confident in your ability.

Yes, I think it entirely possible you have attuned yourself, whether you call it reiki or not. The important thing is that it is a source of energy that flows automatically through you as needed rather than depleting your personal supply.

[alwayson4]

Often I find myself feeling a bit :oops: when I have to try to explain a technique like Kunlun. My guess is that the marketing is so overstated for similar reasons. There doesn't seem to be that much actually new to the system, and yet somehow it seems to work differently than anything I have tried.

The first level of three is a sitting posture using a chair. Sitting on the edge of a chair with your back straight and your feet on the ground, your left hand is in front of your navel chakra with the palm facing up. The right hand is facing down and held in front of the throat chakra. There seems to be a couple of inches between the hands and the body. The elbows are a bit out from the body to open up space in the armpits. The tongue is in the usual place at the roof of the mouth. Then lift the heels to activate the flow of energy. It has been a while since I read the book to check if I've forgotten anything. When you are done, the next step is to lower the heels and then the right hand is placed over the navel chakra and the left hand is placed over the right. If it was the other way around for women, placing the hands on the stomach, I've forgotten.

Today I'm in a bit of a hurry and just kept finding things to say. Normally I am more organized.



Hi my friend. I enjoy talking to you over PM. What do the other levels of kunlun involve?

[Tom]

It has been a while since I read the book, and I can't find what I seemed to recall reading - it seemed to me that the effects of the third level reminded me of those of Dzogchen.

[alwayson4]

I tried kunlun level 1 yesterday.

It truly does something, I never have experienced before. I experienced the magnetic force, and I started to spontaneously swirl.

I am going to do the 100 days celibacy and practice every day:)

[star]

Cool! Kudos on the celibcy thing. Just thinking about it causes me to recoil.

[alwayson4]

I gave this up after a week.

What can I say lol

[Korpo]

I gave this up after a week.

What can I say lol

:lol:

Well, you tried. :D

Oliver

[TalkingHead]

Yes, so I finally got to see with my own eyes what Max Christenson and his followers are like. First I would have to say that the most impressive part was when he transmitted energy to his students. They were blown backwards or went into fits and were dazed for awhile afterward. Max acted like he was playing around, but there was something a little unsettling about the way he engaged the people afterwards. He was being very playful about the whole thing and would gently slap or prod one of the guys on the floor lying dazed; He kept saying that "we play a lot of games in our group," as if their body being overwhelmed by his energy was no big deal.

I was impressed by Max's presence. He does make you feel drawn to him and he is VERY charismatic. I came to the lecture for a number of reasons and left feeling very glad that I came, because I felt like I was seeing a cult form before my eyes. I don't expect him to go Charles Manson and start having familes offed, but I think he'll make some good money and get a lot of women. Max IS a FORCE.

A number of Max's followers spoke about their experience with the practice. They definitely seemed to look to Max for guidance and approval; seeming much too passive; the kind of people that get taken in. When he was transmitting energy to someone, another student sitting next to me who had been on stage early started to convulse. I felt like he could be competing for the attention, love and approval of Max, who stayed focused on his favorite for a long time after. He replied to his most trepid student who asked if he was going to make her come up front something like; "Yes of course I will not ask you to come up here." Definitely an NLP hypnotic statement designed to confuse and entrance the mind a little.

There was one man who spoke that did have very good presence and gave a convincing dialogue saying that "If you are just curious now, the transmission will take you beyond the comfort of curiosity".

However, the tone of the dialogue sounded too much like marketing. Max gave anecdotes about how accomplished practioners of other schools or macho bushido japanese men were overwhelmed by his energies. He kept emphasizing informality by saying many times; "you see we're like family". Kind of lulling everyone into trust and acceptance. At the end of the night there just didn't seem much room for doubt. d Perhaps Max has reached an advanced energetic state, but I think his underlying complex could be a cross between Jesus complex and control freak.

I did find the description of transmission of energy interesting. Max didn't describe how he did it but rather asked his followers to explain their experience. One student said he was told to resist the flow of energy being given to him, but then his resistance broke down and the energy flowed up his spine. Each time Max, transmitted energy to someone in front he would would say right before: "its okay to resist.." To me it seemed like he was prepping them with the message "Resistance is futile against my powers!"

I would really like to go to the seminar tomorrow.. Even if it is just hypnosis, suggestion, and expectation to get a surge of energy through those means would be interesting and fun, but I would feel like to much of a sucker to shell out $300 for this.

(*Disclaimer: I'm not trying to deliver the final word on this or badmouth the practice. I'm actually going to continue practicing kunlun; I just find it sad to see people totally taken in by it. )

[Korpo]

This is very creepy. That's kind of what I expected when I read short descriptions. :?

Oliver