Tibetan dream yoga

[Jenn Lynn]

Has anybody here had any experience with this?

[journyman161]

You could have a read HERE (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?p=29830&highlight=tibetan+dream+yoga#29830) and check the link provided.

[Jenn Lynn]

Thank you for the reply, I actually did search the topic before posting :) and I do own this book as well as a few others....this is something I have had experience with practicing, so I was wondering if anyone else has practiced Tibetan dream yoga as well. Sorry for not being clear..

Jennifer


btw - the first link is broken

[journyman161]

Here you go... http://www.tarab-institute.org/gb/luciddreaming.htm

[Jenn Lynn]

hmmm, maybe i should ask this a different way. in tibetan dream yoga, there are several exercises to do once you are able to achieve a reliable conscious dream state (i do feel that OBEs and lucid dreams are the same phenomenon). you can take any objects and shrink them down or make them large, multiply them infinitely, multiply yourself, reverse the sequential order of the dream, tear the environment apart entirely, etc. the two things i am most interested in are whether anyone has had the experience during a lucid dream/OBE where they deliberately caused harm or destroyed their bodily form, or if they have ever performed any sort of meditation practice in this state.

jennifer

[CFTraveler]

I have talked to other aspects of myself (knowing they are), and once while OBE I 'played' with my body, poking my astral finger in my head and heart to see what happened. That's as close to what you're asking as I have no desire to harm myself, consciously or subconsciously (at the moment at least).

[Jenn Lynn]

:D i didnt realize how my question was going to sound until i read your reply.

actually, you dont do the bodily harm out of a desire to hurt yourself in a negative way, its more of an ego destruction exercise... you are aware that you are in a "dream" world so you are also aware that causing any kind of harm to your dream body form wont actually hurt you. its one of the hardest and most fascinating things ive attempted. i recommend it if you havent tried.

[CFTraveler]

But when I interact with other aspects of myself I'm more interested in knowing what's 'in there', so to speak, because I don't believe in 'ego destruction' as a means to anything. In my worldview the ego isn't real in the sense of only the eternal being real, so there's nothing in essence to destroy, only my own belief in it. So I'd rather try to figure it out, instead of destroying it. Then maybe I'll figure out why I believe in it enough for it to exist in the threedimensional universe. Even if it ultimately doesn't matter, it's more fun to investigate than to destroy.
Just my worldview, anyway.

[Jenn Lynn]

right on, your world view makes good sense. i tend to have some time to kill in the astral so i like to try out techniques that other cultures have subscribed to, and i have to believe that a couple thousand years of the dream yoga practiced by the monks might have some things of interest worth discovering :)

perhaps the word destroy is a poor choice...this particular practice is in itself an interesting analysis of one's own mind. in my case, i was able to set fire to my arm and watch it burn, and i encountered some very complex emotions and thoughts that are hard to describe, and at the same time there was an intense struggle taking place in my mind. one side was telling me that this event should be causing me to feel pain and alarm, and that instincts should be moving me to action in order to preserve my existence. the other logical side was telling me that this was a dream and that all the warning i was receiving from the other side of my mind were unnecessary because the rules of the physical world of my waking life did not apply in this realm.

in the end it turns out to be a struggle involving belief, so i think we agree :)

[Beekeeper]

Jenn Lynn, I can see a possible rationale for such "self-mutilation" in a dream, though I have never tried it. Perhaps it will be beneficial when we escape this life in understanding that nothing that happened to our physical body (or the bodies of those we loved) had any real impact on our eternal self other than the knowledge it provided.

[Jenn Lynn]

Thanks for your response :) and i do agree with your philosophy. something related to this that i find interesting is that in some cultures, lucid dreams are used for tackling issues and obstacles that folks run into in their waking life. any problem that arises, you simply recreate in a lucid dream (or perhaps several dreams) and the situation eventually works itself out. im sure this isnt new news to anyone here, but what i am beginning to see is what happens when you take it a step further. one can also take the conundrum of this physical existence and address it in the lucid dream. all the aspects of this waking life that i feel currently trap me i can recreate in the dream and dissect them or tear them down. by no means am i any expert on this (just a common garden variety experimenter) but i do feel that this is beginning to loosen the 4 dimensional environment hold on my mind.

i had a lucid dream a month ago where the realization hit me as i was facing one of my teachers that this waking life is no more real or false than my waking dream life, and i felt this was a significant realization for me.

so, this is the long winded way of saying that maybe one way of coming to an understanding of the impact (or lack of) our physical bodies have on our higher selves can be found through investigation in conscious dreams.

i think maybe ill post the question about meditation in a lucid dream\OBE in the OBE forum...id really like to know if anyone has tried this...

[Beekeeper]

The thing that is interesting is that people are said to bring wounds, afflictions and scars over from past lives. I wonder if this is related to how time actually occurs (as in every moment possibly being simultaneous) or if it is because these people never fully left behind the reality of a past life.

(I'm always fascinated by this beautiful looking boy at my son's school who has a bullet hole birthmark just above and right between his eyebrows.)

[Jenn Lynn]

i'm beginning to think that we bring several things with us from our past lives, and its funny, ive actually been having a discussion with a friend of mine over the past few months concerning time...he subscribes to the "eternal recurrence" idea, which i cannot wrap my head around no matter how hard i try. both this concept and the simultaneity of events seem so counterintuitive to me, and im sure its only because of where my personal understanding is at this point.

in this life so far i am discovering that i have many capabilities that i HAD to have learned somewhere, and i didnt learn them in this life. i dont believe that people are "naturals" or chosen by god to have special gifts that others dont, i think we all have the same capabilities but we are at different points on the path on the way to realizing them. so i the only conclusion i can draw thus far is that ive already learned how to activate these abilities in a previous life which in turn gives me access to them now. i feel that we do bring scars as well as lessons with us. i have yet to account for the intense irrational fear ive had as a small child of the sound of a gun or fireworks or any loud abrupt noise.

this presents to me a very linear view of time.

jennifer

[Freawaru]

Hi Jenn,

I try to practice it. When I am fully lucid - and that does not happen all that often. Most times I am kinda semi-lucid, it is as if a part of me is lucid and indeed controls the dream, trying all kinds of techniques but I am not identified with this part of me. At least, afterwards I don't remember the dream from that perspective.

Tarab Tulku RInpoche taught that letting yourself being killed in a lucid dream is a real chance. It seems to me that when we let ourselves being killed in a lucid dream the energy leaves the off-central channels and enter the central channel.

A few weeks ago I ALMOST succeded... sniff. I was fully lucid and there were several dream people around me, I asked them what they wanted and all that, trying to get a communication with myself. But they didn't answer. Then someone came at me and I thought he wanted to kill me. You know, this threatening feeling, a sensing of a weapon. As I was lucid I recalled Tarab Tulku's teaching and thought about just letting it happen. Unfortionately, I was also still in the "communication program" and couldn't quite decide what I prefered. So, alas, I woke up.

In my experience when I am (successfully) attacked physically in a dream (lucid or not) I usually end up with either ecstasy or a healing experience. I don't know if this is so for everybody, though.

[Jenn Lynn]

In my experience when I am (successfully) attacked physically in a dream (lucid or not) I usually end up with either ecstasy or a healing experience. I don't know if this is so for everybody, though.

wow thats really interesting, i have not had this experience before, but it doesn't surprise me. this realm is such a purely subjective area for us when we first start gaining awareness there that its sometimes difficult to find many common experiences or events. all the times i have been attacked i have felt the need to fight back, survival instincts seem to take over. i suppose it could really depend on what you're fighting...many times im trying to change some aspect of myself that i don't like, and this can manifest as a battle in the dream world. but i suppose if your mind is in a place where you're learning to accept certain things in life instead of fighting them (which can be SO HARD), i can see how allowing those things to overtake you in a dream could possibly provide a healing and enlightened experience. good things to think about :)

jennifer

[Freawaru]

all the times i have been attacked i have felt the need to fight back, survival instincts seem to take over.


Yes, usually it is for me like this, too. I end up becoming Buffy the vampire slayer or some other fictional character or flying or doing supernatural stuff. They are actually favorite dreams of mine. ;-)



i suppose it could really depend on what you're fighting...many times im trying to change some aspect of myself that i don't like, and this can manifest as a battle in the dream world.


I think this is probably how it works, yes. We cling to our self, even if we actually want to change some aspects of it. In dream, this wanting to change is percieved as an attack. Strange, how we end up fighting ourselves ;-)

Do you practice dream yoga? If yes, what techniques do you use and what did you experience?

[Jenn Lynn]

sorry for the delay in reply, i do practice some aspects of dream yoga. i actually kind of skipped right to the sleep yoga since im able to achieve the conscious dream state with relative ease. in tenzin wangyal rinpoche's book on dream yoga, he lists 11 categories of experience in which the mind tends to get tied up. these categories are size, quantity, quality, speed, accomplishment, transformation, emanation, journey, seeing, encounter, and experiences. sometimes when i am lucid in a dream, i'll pick one of these categories and work with them in order to loosen the hold that the constraints have on my mind. one time i was in a room and i took off a silver ring i wear and i practiced shrinking it down and expanding it to a large size, other times i have practiced teleportation, transformation, things like that.

what i find interesting is that i am aware of both minds that i have during these times, my waking conscious mind and the sleeping conscious mind, and i perceive the struggle taking place as i work towards breaking through the boundaries. it feels like progress to me, although to what degree i have no idea :)

as it turns out, over the past year, i have had to engage myself in battle many times (im in the middle of one right now) in order to change aspects of myself that no longer serve. it seems that these final few elements are proving to be incredibly difficult to overcome, but somehow i persevere...
i have in fact fought a battle with knives against a person that looked exactly like me in an unconscious dream, and i still have no idea what that was about


:?

also, i do find that the preliminary techniques for encouraging the lucid dream state in tibetan dream yoga are incredibly effective, so if you are working with this, keep it up, you wont be disappointed :D


jennifer

[Korpo]

Jenn Lynn, why are you fighting against yourself? This somehow seems wrong. Declaring parts of yourself as enemy and unwanted might actually waste subsconscious powers you have and create the struggles you experience instead of solving them effectively.

I liked the idea from "Core Transformation" - each part of you has a positive purpose, sometimes they are just bad at following through or not effective in pursuing it. Realigning the part might be way more effective than fighting it.

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=10302

Oliver

[Jenn Lynn]

great question. i'll need to think about this for a bit, but to sum up my experiences over the past year, there is one particular aspect of my personality that i want to change, all it has done is cause me harm. so i began focusing and meditating on a way to accomplish this change earlier in the year, which is the method that has successfully brought me through previous trials, and eventually i began witnessing the struggle from a more objective standpoint, and this would on occasion manifest in my unconscious dreams as a fight against something or someone. i didnt consciously choose to take this route, it just kind of happened. so i just accepted it as part of what the universe intended in guiding me towards my goal. maybe for me, this is the best way to visualize the situation in order to overcome it.

i have tried in the past to redirect, remap, and realign this aspect of myself, but i continue to struggle. during the times that i am in the midst of this mind-state, it is incredibly difficult to focus and control my mind, at times i almost feel like something else is controlling me. during these episodes it does in fact feel as though i am at battle with something to regain control of myself, if i relinquish control and let it take me, harm is caused, but if i try to put up a good fight, i can gain some ground, and this always feels to me like a small victory which is empowering and gives me hope for the next encounter. maybe you can identify with this, maybe not.

you make some very good points, both in this thread and the one you provided, im going to think this over and do some reading and come back to it :)

jennifer

[Korpo]

I find your answer intriguing. I did not know you were guided so strongly in this! I thought it would be more part of the basic ideas of that kind of Dream Yoga.

Even sabotaging parts of you might have good intents. Good intentions do not however always make good results, far from that. Maybe the part can be convinced that the intent is good and can be fulfilled without sabotaging and harming you? Within the subsconscious logic sometimes takes some very odd twists...

I admit however not to know what is really going on. If you feel like making progress, perhaps fighting is really what works best for you? In the end, you'll see.

Take good care,
Oliver

[Freawaru]

these categories are size, quantity, quality, speed, accomplishment, transformation, emanation, journey, seeing, encounter, and experiences. sometimes when i am lucid in a dream, i'll pick one of these categories and work with them in order to loosen the hold that the constraints have on my mind. one time i was in a room and i took off a silver ring i wear and i practiced shrinking it down and expanding it to a large size, other times i have practiced teleportation, transformation, things like that.

Yes, that is one of the things I try to do, too, when I am lucid. And that does happen not as often as for you. Should probably practice zhine more often - it usually increases the chance in my case :-)

I have teleported, too, but it does not always work. This is another obstacle I encounter. Sometimes when I am lucid it seems easy to manipulate the dream, at other times very hard. For example once I tried to "conjur" up a broomstick (had bee reading too much Harry Potter). I thought it should be easy as I remember having done it in another dream - but somehow no broom appeared in my hand. Then a dream person came to me and HANDED me a broomstick. I mean, sure, it somehow worked, I got what I wanted, but this feeling of "done it myselff" had not been there.



what i find interesting is that i am aware of both minds that i have during these times, my waking conscious mind and the sleeping conscious mind,


Sometimes I have these two memories, memories of two perspectives of experiencing the dream, too. One lucid and the other not :-)



and i perceive the struggle taking place as i work towards breaking through the boundaries.


I don't recall this. The two minds don't seem to struggle so far. But that might be cause often I choose to just observe what happens, let the dream run it's course and concentrate on staying lucid.



i have in fact fought a battle with knives against a person that looked exactly like me in an unconscious dream, and i still have no idea what that was about


I never had that honor :lol:
I often dream about fights. Those dreams are not bothering me. Sometimes I am lucid, sometimes not. Sometimes I take part of the fight and sometimes I just observe. I recall walking through a battlefield once, invisible and untouchable.

I know meditation and dreams are not quite the same but by dream yoga the barrier seems to be weaker. In mysticsm often we find "conquering", "fighting", "war" even "destruction" as positive terms. The hindu avatar Rama was a warrior, Krishna ordered Arjuna to fight in a war, the Bible focuses on "holy war" and the Sufies have the Jihad and mean it very differently than the popular interpretation. In my opinion the "inner war" is natural and necessary. It is not really about winning, though, I believe.

[Freawaru]

I liked the idea from "Core Transformation" - each part of you has a positive purpose, sometimes they are just bad at following through or not effective in pursuing it. Realigning the part might be way more effective than fighting it.


Yes, but what needs to be realigned? I mean, is fighting oneself wrong and should be fought? Or should one realign that fight and integrate it into oneself? ;-)

[Jenn Lynn]

For example once I tried to "conjur" up a broomstick (had bee reading too much Harry Potter).


you can never read too much harry potter. those books contain a wealth of information :)

[Tombo]

Hi Jenn

Actually I have tried some things you describe. It was quite some time ago. I once was very intersested in dream yoga but could not find anybody else that had some experience, i did not have so much success myself so I stopped. Or maybe it was lack of guidance :roll: .... I try to rememeber
:idea: I once did cut my arm of with a knife. It did feel very strange and "sick" in a way. It did not feel good and after the dream. I had the impression I should not do things like that as it is just "not right." I only did that once, though. Maybe it was a natural reaction of my mind, i don't know.

I let myself be killed in dream quite often. usually when somebody hostil attacks me and I dont fight back but just give in. This on contrary does usually fell very good and "freeing"

i tried to mediate inside the LD several times but did not have that much success. Usually I woke up or could not find enough concentration/lucidity to keep my mind steady on something. I should try this again as I only did try it a couple of times.

I'm also interested in your experiences. Did you have any success with Meditiation, Shrinking or multiplying yourself?

I plan to start LD again, what was your most interesting experience?

Mine was, when I layed on the ground in my dream and gave my body the command to let go of my "physical" body and brain. So kind of giving myself the selfhypnotic comand to cut the connection to my brain.trying to dublicate that following from a guy that kind of did a selfhynosis in his dream and then:

Well that one time i started with letting my left dream hand fall a sleep and i fell the nerves from my hand all the way in my brain..then i get a blitz idea..why not give my self the hypnotic suggestion (i was already under hypnosis) to let totally go of my whole brain.

Would be intersting if you could try that and tell me what happened :wink:

KR Tom

[Jenn Lynn]

yeah there doesnt seem to be many people working with dream yoga, my best friend has been a practicing buddhist for a while now, and he doesnt know anybody playing around with this either. it seems to me that some of the more intense exercises work best when you start to arrive at certain understandings along the way.. i think that since i am becoming more fully enlightened to the insubstantial nature of this physical realm as well as the dream world, its not as odd for me to cause harm to my dream body, it was actually more fascinating than anything... when i first tried it i stuck my hand in a fire and watched my arm burn, but now i can will flames to emanate from my fingertips :)

i actually did for the first time a few weeks ago make an attempt at multiplying myself, but admittedly i was stumped. i had gone through some other exercises during a LD and then sat on a fence and tried to conceive of how multiplication of myself would come about. its difficult to actually imagine yourself in this state, but my guess is that the key may lie within the capability to do so. im just not there yet :?

i have on one occasion in particular laid on a bed in a lucid dream and closed my eyes for meditation. im not really sure how to describe what happened other than to say it was one of the most intense and bizarre sensations ive ever felt. it happened very fast after closing my eyes and i tried to maintain that state for as long as i could, but it was only a few moments before i had to let go, i simply could not endure it. i saw darkness, but also strange shapes and colors that i cant describe or even remember. im not sure what i tapped into, but it was WAY more than i could handle at the present time. i sometimes wonder if its the gateway to the next level, kind of like meditation in this physical world opening up the road to lucid dreams or OBE. who knows. ill try it again soon.

i havent tried shrinking myself, only other objects, but i will definitely put it on my list of things to do :)



I plan to start LD again, what was your most interesting experience?

man...honestly id have to write you a book, theres no way i could pick just one...in an odd one i had a few years ago, i found myself floating around in an underground egyptian complex, i was in a temple which was only lit by torches. i came to a wall that had a large relief carved into it of anubis embalming osiris, it was spooky and magnetic at the same time, and as i looked at it, my body began to vibrate at a very strange frequency that i hadnt experienced before, it was similar to the OBE separation vibration, but different, and it became more intense the longer i gazed at it. once or twice i tried to get away from it because it got to be too intense, but i kept getting drawn back to it. this went on for a while before i finally awoke. i have no idea what it was about.


Would be intersting if you could try that and tell me what happened

im all about trying new things, but im not sure i completely understand what you mean by cutting the connection to your brain.. maybe you could help me by explaining this a bit further, what would your goal be in cutting this connection?

i highly encourage you to move towards lucid dreaming again, 15 minutes of meditation a day will get you there in no time :wink:

jennifer

[Tombo]

Would be intersting if you could try that and tell me what happened

im all about trying new things, but im not sure i completely understand what you mean by cutting the connection to your brain.. maybe you could help me by explaining this a bit further, what would your goal be in cutting this connection?
jennifer


Yeah you are right, I should tell you more. Well the goal is basically to induce a NDE. And I dnot know if it is dangerous or not. I did it once and I experienced something very intense. It was different form my other LD/OBE's.

Well would should you exactly do? It is kind of hard to tell. As far as i can remember I just laid down on the floor closed my eyes and imagined that I pulled my consciousness out of my arms and also out of my "dream" head. Kind of withdraw it from my brain. It is kind of hard to describe also because I only managed to do it once. The source from where I got the idea is:

How i incubate a NDe mm the first time it was a selfhypnosis accident..
I had already learned my self that if i lay in a ld on bed or at the ground or couch i could desolve my dream body by letting it faal a sleep the same way like i do a wild with my real body in real life..
So when you wild in your lucid dreams the way i do a normal wild your dream body falls a sleep and desolves your real body also falls then in deep sleep and you also. You reach then the big black void or deep sleep!
But one time i was laying in my lucid dream and practising wild (funny isnt it wild practising in a lucid dream lol) ,my way to do wild is a mix from self hypnosis zen meditation and chakra breathing and focussing..i call it trance meditation..its much alike the classic yogi does it.
Well that one time i started with letting my left dream hand fall a sleep and i fell the nerves from my hand all the way in my brain..then i get a blitz idea..why not give my self the hypnotic suggestion (i was already under hypnosis) to let totally go of my whole brain..




i highly encourage you to move towards lucid dreaming again, 15 minutes of meditation a day will get you there in no time :wink:

jennifer


What kind of meditation do you use. There are some different types of meditation. what is your technique?

KR Tom

[Jenn Lynn]

so you're trying to induce an NDE while youre in a lucid state in a dream? this seems a bit odd, but its likely because my understanding is flawed somewhere... my current view of OBE's, NDE's, and lucid dreams is that they all basically result in the same event, which is the conscious perception of an alternate state of being. whether your consciousness leaves the body or whether you simply open up new channels that brings the universe to your mind, or whatever, we perceive a separation of consciousness and physical body. OBE's and lucid dreams have always allowed me to go wherever i choose, im not sure i see how an NDE would differ from this... let me know if you feel differently, and tell me why you want to try this :)

from the way it sounds, we've done something similar, i did lay down and close my eyes to perform a meditation, but wasnt able to handle what i saw there.. yet.


What kind of meditation do you use. There are some different types of meditation. what is your technique?

my general rule is simplicity. i do this laying down, but i dont see why it wouldnt work while sitting. 2 months before i started experiencing conscious OBE's, this is the method i used (also, be warned, i have no idea where this method came from, it just occurred to me one day):

id close my eyes and let my mind settle down for 5 minutes, let thoughts wander around, but slowly try winding them down and let my body relax. then i practiced making my mind as silent as possible, i did this at the beginning by counting slowly, id start from one and count upwards and just hear the sound of the number in my mind, and count as high as i could until a random thought would creep in my mind, and then stop the count and start over. (this is one of the hardest things ive ever done, it took me a over month to get to 20, i could only manage to do it for about 10 minutes each day as the force of concentration can be exhausting). once i got the counting down, i started paying attention more to the silent spaces in between hearing the numbers in my mind, this is where the silence is, so i stretched out the time between numbers to increase the silence.

once i had quieted my mind, i would send out my request, which was for an OBE, but there was a trick. i would first conjure up the feeling of excitement in my stomach by thinking of something that either made me nervous or excited or whatever, just something to quickly generate energy in the solar plexus, and once i felt it i would send out my request as loudly and forcefully as i could in my mind (which was as simple as "i want to project!"), and sometimes id try to imagine what it felt like actually flying upwards or floating above my body while continuing to encourage the sensation in my solar plexus.

so, i dunno.... it worked for me 8)


jennifer

[Dsmoke]

I often practice meditative, healing, and energetic techniques while lucid dreaming. The experience is so tense that it usually lasts less than a minute, and I wake up. It's very euphoric, much more so than in waking life. I think that the more my energy body develops, the longer I'll be able to do it in lucid dreams.

I have practiced manifesting, but not shrinking or enlarging. Well, I do have an odd compulsion to tidy up messy areas in my lucid dreams. I will shout, "Clean this mess up NOW!" and things start flying into place or disappearing. Yes, I know it's goofy :)

[Jenn Lynn]

very cool dsmoke, strangely enough it seems that when i want to do things in the astral that i dont quite have enough energy for at the time, i find myself eating lots of food in my unconscious dreams :D

i have had some experience with healing in the astral, mostly it has been concerned with light emanating from my hands, but so far my experiments with this remain inconclusive. your practices are very interesting, what kinds of manifesting do you perform? also, your compulsion to tidy up is not so strange, do you find this happening in random areas or within your own home or general surroundings?

jennifer

[Dsmoke]

Jennifer,

Oh how I wish I could just shout, "Get cleaned up now!" and my living room would fly into place :) But yes, I do have the need for a clean, uncluttered space in my daily life, too, and am tidier than the average person. In dreams, it happens in random places that are clearly in a home.

As for manifesting, I try for whatever comes to mind. I've been yelling for a sword lately, or a book.

[Jenn Lynn]

we have things in common, my living space is very clean and uncluttered, and i currently have a desire to clean this same living space that i project into... i hadnt thought of trying your command before, thanks for the idea :)


As for manifesting, I try for whatever comes to mind. I've been yelling for a sword lately, or a book.

do you have success with this? (if you dont mind me asking of course :oops: )

jennifer

[Dsmoke]

Sometimes. Partial manifestations are most common, or weird little things like wishing for an apple to appear in my hand and having my hand turn red. When I do manage to manifest something, I wake up soon after. I think it takes a lot of energy.

Sometimes I use the spinning technique to get to a completely new environment and I focus on what/who/where I want while I spin. Once I get to the new location, I sometimes have an easier time of finding what I want. That's a little different than direct manifestation, though.

I think a need for a clean environment can symbolize the need for a clean energetic space :)

[Jenn Lynn]

fascinating. i worked on manifesting an apple not too long ago as well. have you tried visualizing the object you intend to manifest during a waking life meditation before attempting this in the astral? i have had positive results with this. i have also found that manifesting exhausts my energy stores, in effect it brings my projection to a close (or at least that particular segment of it), which leaves me with many more questions...

the spinning technique.. is this a form of teleportation? its funny i was just about to post a new question to the forum on teleportation. im not familiar with spinning, but id love an explanation. ive managed to teleport a few times now, and strangely something different seems to happen each time, i always get to my destination, but the manner of travel so far has varied.

i agree that the need for a clean environment cleanses one's space. i also believe that it presents a person with a new canvas upon which to paint :)

jennifer

[Dsmoke]

When you say visualizing in real life, do you mean right before bed or during normal waking hours? I haven't tried this.

You could call spinning a means of dream teleportation. Start whirling around in place (think of an iceskater doing a spin) and focus on where you want to go. I shout out like "Take me to X!". You'll lose your visuals for a moment, and when you stop spinning, your visuals should return and you'll find yourself in a new dreamscape. Sometimes it's where I want to go, and sometimes it isn't, but it's always different than where I was before.

Another means of transportation is to open a door and focus on where you want to go. I think spinning is more fun, though :)

[Jenn Lynn]

you can do this anytime during normal waking hours... just take an object like a book or whatever and study it for a few minutes in order to start to memorize what it looks like, and then close your eye for 5-10 minutes and try to remember how it appears. perseverance is the key, it could take days, weeks.. but once you feel like you have a good picture of the object in your head, try manifesting it in the dream world. i find that practicing visualization during waking hours is a powerful tool in the astral.

spinning does sound like fun, i do like to dance :D i'll give this a try. i also experience the loss of visuals while traveling, but it does return quickly. the strangest thing happened the last time though, usually i can ask to be taken to a place, and i black out briefly and then appear at my destination, but for some reason on this particular occasion, i blacked out and felt four hands grab my wrists and ankles and carry me to the place i wanted to go to. after a moment this became unnerving, i could feel the acceleration as well as the hands grasping me, but i couldnt see anything, and then suddenly each hand let go, until just one was hanging onto my wrist, then that one let go, i landed softly on a floor, opened my eyes, and there i was in my bedroom, just like i wanted. weird huh?

:?

[Tombo]

so you're trying to induce an NDE while youre in a lucid state in a dream? this seems a bit odd, but its likely because my understanding is flawed somewhere... my current view of OBE's, NDE's, and lucid dreams is that they all basically result in the same event, which is the conscious perception of an alternate state of being. whether your consciousness leaves the body or whether you simply open up new channels that brings the universe to your mind, or whatever, we perceive a separation of consciousness and physical body. OBE's and lucid dreams have always allowed me to go wherever i choose, im not sure i see how an NDE would differ from this... let me know if you feel differently, and tell me why you want to try this :)

I want to try this again cause it felt different then my other experiences. So I want to experience it again out of curiosity and to better understand myself and the mind. I think it is a bit flawed to con conclude LD/OBE and NDE are all the same without direct knowledge :wink:

On the otherhand I do not really know if I induced an NDE I just know it sacred the ♥♥♥♥ out of me :shock:

As far to how this could help you in your quest for enlightment. I do not know. It is just an experiement. like shrinking things...


from the way it sounds, we've done something similar, i did lay down and close my eyes to perform a meditation, but wasnt able to handle what i saw there.. yet.

What did you see? Ever since that experience I can't handle it anymore. I wake up when I try it.



id close my eyes and let my mind settle down for 5 minutes, let thoughts wander around, but slowly try winding them down and let my body relax. then i practiced making my mind as silent as possible, i did this at the beginning by counting slowly, id start from one and count upwards and just hear the sound of the number in my mind, and count as high as i could until a random thought would creep in my mind, and then stop the count and start over. (this is one of the hardest things ive ever done, it took me a over month to get to 20, i could only manage to do it for about 10 minutes each day as the force of concentration can be exhausting). once i got the counting down, i started paying attention more to the silent spaces in between hearing the numbers in my mind, this is where the silence is, so i stretched out the time between numbers to increase the silence.

once i had quieted my mind, i would send out my request, which was for an OBE, but there was a trick. i would first conjure up the feeling of excitement in my stomach by thinking of something that either made me nervous or excited or whatever, just something to quickly generate energy in the solar plexus, and once i felt it i would send out my request as loudly and forcefully as i could in my mind (which was as simple as "i want to project!"), and sometimes id try to imagine what it felt like actually flying upwards or floating above my body while continuing to encourage the sensation in my solar plexus.

so, i dunno.... it worked for me 8)


jennifer[/quote]

Interesting technique! I'll give it a try. So your LD's just appear spontanous then?

KR Tom

[CFTraveler]

I hope you're not talking about inducing a Near Death Experience? I really hope you mean an Out of Body Experience..

[Tombo]

I hope you're not talking about inducing a Near Death Experience? I really hope you mean an Out of Body Experience..

No, actually i mean NDE's.

[CFTraveler]

So, just to make it clear on why I may have to lock this topic, you're advocating someone trying to kill themselves to see if they can have a near-death experience? Please tell me this is not what you're doing.

[Jenn Lynn]

dont worry, i have no intention of trying to kill myself ... my life is way too interesting 8)

besides, i feel strongly that i wouldnt be able to bring harm to myself even accidentally at this point. like i said earlier, i dont see differences between OBE and NDE, you leave and you come back, although the initial conditions are clearly different. i dont really understand the idea of inducing an NDE while youre already out of your body, unless youre trying to condition yourself to do this while in a waking state... which again leaves me perplexed. i have no problem coming and going, so i have no need for an NDE.

i think we're just talking about experimentation with things we dont understand yet, and words are confusing the situation. i think i know what tom is getting at, i can take this information to the astral and decide what to do with it once im there :)


What did you see? Ever since that experience I can't handle it anymore. I wake up when I try it.

like i said before, i cant really describe it, it was like a huge dark endless void, but there were also shapes and colors (if that makes any sense), and it was more what i felt that was too much for me more than what i saw. the vibration in my body felt almost to intensely pure for me to endure.


So your LD's just appear spontanous then?

yes and no... i guess mostly yes, but sometimes i kind of know when ive done something that will trigger one that day. it gets complicated :)

jennifer

[Tombo]

So, just to make it clear on why I may have to lock this topic, you're advocating someone trying to kill themselves to see if they can have a near-death experience? Please tell me this is not what you're doing.


Sorry about being maybe to careless about it. I would be feeling pretty bad for Jenn if you close this great topic just because I did not express myself carefully :?

No, I do not advocate someone to try to kill themselfs! I advocate someone to try something which I can not really understand. i don't know what I'm advocating really, but since it is inside an LD it certainly belongs here. lets not call it NDE! i survived it with no hram and it took only like 30 secs. I have no clue what it was. Maybe it just was my first real OBE?! lets call it Tom's special OBE, okay?! It just felt more real then my other experiences....

Yes maybe it is dangerous, but if so we should discuss it on not supress it I think.

All this years everybody says OBE's are save and then suddenly you are so sacred that one can actually kill themselfs inside the OBE?

We admire those people like Monroe or Robert Bruce that explore this world without fear. Didn't Robert Bruce himself experience a NDE while doing some Kundalini Work! But now there is a whole Forum about that subject. So I would not find it appropriate to close this topic.

Hope this makes things better

KR Tom

[CFTraveler]

All this years everybody says OBE's are safe and then suddenly you are so sacred that one can actually kill themselfs inside the OBE? Not at all what I said, which is why I asked the questions. If you are talking about things you can do in an OBE or LD then I say do whatever you can do.
I was merely clarifying that you were not talking about the idea of deliberately inducing an NDE by engaging in some sort of dangerous practice.
Not the same, that's why I asked. I wanted to make sure that anyone that is reading this thread is in no way confused about it.

[Psychotronic]

I think it isn´t rational to feel fear to spiritual experiences. We are constantly in protection of our subconsciousness. It is something so precise, it never can allow injury in any case. I have this protection in a physical realm too, so it is absolutely sure in psychic/astral realms, where subconsciousness has full control.

[ButterflyWoman]

NDE = Near Death Experience. It happens when your body is so sick or damaged or traumatised or injured or otherwise unable to function that it actually dies or comes extremely close to it, and your consciousness leaves it. It is not something anyone should want to induce, as it involves significant trauma.

OBE = Out of Body Experience. Your consciousness leaves your physical body for a time. Your body is not in danger, not dying. Frequently people have OBEs when lying safely and comfortably in their bed. No physical danger to the body is involved.

I'm just hoping to clarify the terms people commonly use and what they mean. If you mean OBE, don't call it an NDE and vice versa. ;) It's true that there are not a lot of terms for many of the things we discuss on this board, so we have to just sort of describe them the best we can and hope it makes sense, but NDE/OBE are pretty well established.

I sincerely hope that helps. :)

[Jenn Lynn]

i think that there's more than just our subconsciousnesses protecting us, especially in the astral :wink:

well in the end tom, it comes down to this, i will try the method you described to me, because it does sound intriguing, BUT, there's no guarantee ill pull it off. the times that ive laid down in a LD/OBE, as soon as i close my eyes i am in that really crazy zone, and i dont seem to be able to change it. ill see what i can do though and post here if i have any success. in the meantime you need to get back to your LDs so you can start working on this stuff too! :D


jennifer

[Korpo]

I wanted to add that I had two very strange dreams some time ago, and perhaps this relates to your "crazy" experience.

I found at two occasions that while we dream several "minds" can be active. You remarked about the "sleeping conscious mind" and the "waking conscious mind". How about this:

In both dreams I could actually interact with my wife, in a telepathic way. While the dream was unfolding, and I was part of it, I became aware of my wife commenting on it, but from "outside" the dream. In the second instance, in fact me and her were commenting on what was happening inside the dream - having a chat at "another level" outside the dream about what happened inside the dream.

In that second instance then I realised I was dreaming, my mind switched to that "second frequency" and I shouted "towards" my wife "We're talking! We're talking!". This was in fact completely outside the dream. Nothing was to be seen, I just felt connected to her, I knew that at the other end of the communication was her. It could very well be that I either forgot all the visuals or a case of "third eye blindness", but at that level there seemed to be no representations. I felt as if talking mind to mind, and being no more than mind. I could not even say if there was space at all! Then a buzzing electricity arose, a sound completely distorted, the buzz rose, and I woke up. My wife thinks that was someone from a higher frequency talking "down".

So, there exist parts of our minds which can observe our "sleeping conscious mind" while it dreams. Both felt like me. Me in the dream trying to interact with the dream environment perceived myself talking with my wife as if that was someone else. But as soon as I realised that there was an instant shift and I was that self. I cannot say whether these different selves are different bodies or different frequencies or something different altogether. I just know they exist.

Having said that I think meditation is not just a tool for achieving OBE/LD. I think the quiet mind you produce would over time, as you keep it as it is, have a whole lot of other effects by itself. Alternatively, it could possibly also act as a platform for doing the switch right beyond the dream environment to that what for example I experienced. If I can exist as two levels of mind in a dream, this should be accessible via meditation.

I also liked Kurt Leland's suggestion that having a dream lucidly can be utilised to leave the dreamscape and enter what he described as "Otherwhere", which amongst other things contains the Afterlife (or he calls it AfterDeath Zone). This requires knowing the dream for what it is and leaving this sphere of the subconscious playing itself out by willing a gate to arise and passing through it. According to him that marks a passage from your own subconscious into OtherWhere, where the mind interacts with the environment, too. OtherWhere is usually less accessible as long when we cannot reign in our mind, as the continuous thought manifestations would just cause problems for the beings in OtherWhere. Outside our own subconscious dreamscape we start to affect other entities and our interactions have effects beyond what they have in dreams.

I found it interesting that something like that exists, and his descriptions, in his own words and concepts, match just fine with what Monroe and Moen describe when they describe Focus 22-27 or what Michael Newton describes about the "Life Between Lives" as described by his clients. This significant overlap with different angles of perceptions, and through different methods gives credibility to that material. Leland uses LD, Monroe uses OBE, Moen uses phasing, even instantly from waking consciousness, and Newton uses deep hypnosis on subjects. If all those methods produce significant overlap, and they seem to do, then Leland's method to access OtherWhere seems very interesting.

Oliver