Kundalini and Reincarnation

[Snowman23]

How many times must one raise Kundalini to be freed from the cycle of reincarnation?

[Korpo]

I don't think it works as mechanical as that. Could be wrong, though... ;)

Oliver

[CFTraveler]

I don't think that raising Kundalini is a prerequisite for enlightenment- IMO enlightenment is a process and Kundalini is the result.
According to some thought systems, understanding the relationship to our attachments to suffering is enough to free us from the 'law' of 'Karma'. Other thought systems put forth that having no attachments is the way. Whichever is the way, Kundalini is a practice which advances the development of your energy body, and if done correctly can be used to get to the point where you lose those pesky attachments, or become awakened to the reality that you don't need them.
Either way, I'd say that they are only indirectly related, not causally.

[ButterflyWoman]

I don't think there's any particular magic number of times. Kundalini isn't really like that. When it rises, yeah, there can be huge changes, some of them absolutely life altering and ego-destroying. How much work you need on your energy body, your ego, your mind, and whatever else you need altered, well, that depends on how much damage there is, or how misdirected you are, or whatever else it is that you need. It's quite personal and very individualised from what I've personally experienced and from what I've read.

[Tom]

Most of Buddhism doesn't even acknowledge the word Kundalini. :)

[ButterflyWoman]

In my opinion, Kundalini is only one way of expressing the concept. The idea of a spiritual flame that resides within you and which periodically "rises" to purify you and other spiritual effects isn't limited to Hinduism. There are correlations in other spiritual traditions, as well.

Just FYI. :)

[Mahavatar_Babaji]

How many times must one raise Kundalini to be freed from the cycle of reincarnation?
Kundalini is a spiritual energy that resides in everyone, though in most it lies dormant. Awakening it will have no direct effect on the cycle of reincarnation. However, it will make you into a more spiritually intune person overall (speaking from experience), thus it will help in reincarnating as a more spiritually advanced person in your next lifetime.

[sorana]

Most of Buddhism doesn't even acknowledge the word Kundalini. :)

what do they call that than?

[Tom]

Most of Buddhism doesn't even acknowledge the word Kundalini. :)

what do they call that than?

They don't. :)

Working directly with Kundalini is not vital to ending the cycle of birth and death. There is a Buddhist group in the city where I live. They almost didn't let me join because I've received Shaktipat and anyone getting involved with Kundalini is clearly too Hindu for their liking.

[Benares]

To get a little insight on reincarnation and life after death, you might check out the book "Journey of Souls" by Dr. Newton (can't remember his first name). It goes in depth on how and why we reincarnate and it doesn't have anything directly to do with Kundalini.

From my understanding, the awakening of Kundalini is a karmic cleansing process. It's basically the fact that we are clearing our own karma (at least from this life) in order to be a vessel for universal karma in the future. I got these answers channeled from Sayta Sai Baba, but this is probably just his take on it. Take from it what you will, and question it with the same direction you would anything else.

I'm glad there was a thread started about this because I think it is related, but like others said, not directly. I would love to see some others' input on it as well.

[Caelrie]

I don't think that raising Kundalini is a prerequisite for enlightenment- IMO enlightenment is a process and Kundalini is the result.
According to some thought systems, understanding the relationship to our attachments to suffering is enough to free us from the 'law' of 'Karma'. Other thought systems put forth that having no attachments is the way. Whichever is the way, Kundalini is a practice which advances the development of your energy body, and if done correctly can be used to get to the point where you lose those pesky attachments, or become awakened to the reality that you don't need them.
Either way, I'd say that they are only indirectly related, not causally.
I don't know anything about kundalini and all that, but I had an NDE when was a child where I learned something that put me completely at ease regarding reincarnation. I learned that all I had to do to escape the cycle of reincarnation is to simply choose to not reincarnate again. I learned that it was my own addiction to the things here in the physical, things at first I thought I couldn't give up and later things I thought I had to teach (which was really just me expressing my addiction in a vicarious manner) that kept me reincarnating. All I had to do to stop was... stop. It was always my choice, even if sometimes I subjected myself to the will of a force or being I thought I was subject to.

I learned to my own satisfaction that this is my last physical incarnation, regardless of the level of spiritual development I attain by the end of it. Of course, someday I could change my mind and come back, but that's the point... I've finally realized it's my choice and always has been.

[Mishell]

Very well said Caelrie.

I learned the same thing from doing past life regressions and taking them past the point of death into the "afterlife".

[journyman161]

I learned that it was my own addiction to the things here in the physical, things at first I thought I couldn't give up and later things I thought I had to teach (which was really just me expressing my addiction in a vicarious manner) that kept me reincarnating. All I had to do to stop was... stop. It was always my choice, even if sometimes I subjected myself to the will of a force or being I thought I was subject to. *grins* But the point is... it is an addiction - or at least if the stories are right, something that has all the hallmarks of one. It may be we are trapped by unexpected circumstance, but unless the entrapment involves removing choice altogether it comes back to the same scenario.

One wonders why this point keeps being forgotten. Here we have a forum full of people anxiously striving for enlightenment & freedom from the cycles (OK slight exaggeration - but I'm betting if we polled members we'd find a majority see these as end goals) yet few seem to wonder why we don't simply abdicate. Personally I think it's because being here in this physical realm has a lot to do with basic purpose. We're here, IMO, to learn. To take experience of the 'Real' & turn it into Knowledge. Also IMO, that's Knowledge of Self or Source.

I see patterns, & so far, the pattern that makes sense of all that's happening means we are here, in the image of Source, to find just what & who Source is. One day we will return; Life will re-integrate & become Source once more, full of understanding of just who Source is.

That's the game we play, & like full-immersion computer games, it is addictive. It may or may not be that we choose beforehand to be here, but our basic purpose means we rarely choose to leave.

IMO

[Caelrie]

*grins* But the point is... it is an addiction - or at least if the stories are right, something that has all the hallmarks of one. It may be we are trapped by unexpected circumstance, but unless the entrapment involves removing choice altogether it comes back to the same scenario.

One wonders why this point keeps being forgotten. Here we have a forum full of people anxiously striving for enlightenment & freedom from the cycles (OK slight exaggeration - but I'm betting if we polled members we'd find a majority see these as end goals) yet few seem to wonder why we don't simply abdicate. Personally I think it's because being here in this physical realm has a lot to do with basic purpose. We're here, IMO, to learn. To take experience of the 'Real' & turn it into Knowledge. Also IMO, that's Knowledge of Self or Source.

I see patterns, & so far, the pattern that makes sense of all that's happening means we are here, in the image of Source, to find just what & who Source is. One day we will return; Life will re-integrate & become Source once more, full of understanding of just who Source is.

That's the game we play, & like full-immersion computer games, it is addictive. It may or may not be that we choose beforehand to be here, but our basic purpose means we rarely choose to leave.

IMO
I think that's where a lot of my patience in this area comes from. I'll achieve as much spiritual growth as happens during this lifetime, and then pick up the progress after death. I know now that I've got all of eternity to work on it, and since I don't feel like incarnating again, I won't "lose" my current progress through the memory loss of taking another spin here.

What I eventually realized is that my being here has no more meaning than I choose to give it. There's no mission for me here other than what I decide to do. I'm the one who chose my "reason" for being here, and in the end it's all smoke and mirrors. I'm not bound by that decision any more than I'm bound by a decision made yesterday to have fish for breakfast tomorrow.

At the same time, I realized that "karma" could be wiped away in a single swipe, simply by realizing its true nature. It's a voluntary system that feeds our egos, our primitive desire for balance between reward and punishment, greed and guilt. We inflict it on ourselves, and we can stop doing that at any point after we start to realize it's not necessary. I giggled at my own glaring ego for convincing myself that there was a universal force dedicated to keeping score and punishing and rewarding me, and to planning out my incarnations. Interestingly enough, that realization also came packaged with a desire to do good things simply because they're the right thing to do, with no hope of reward. I would have thought that the eventual realization that there is no involuntary reward/punishment system in the universe would have done the opposite, but it didn't.

Of course, I realize none of this will mean anything at all to someone to hasn't come to the same realizations, but that's ok. It's not important that everyone follow my path or be like me.

[Korpo]

Interestingly enough, that realization also came packaged with a desire to do good things simply because they're the right thing to do, with no hope of reward. I would have thought that the eventual realization that there is no involuntary reward/punishment system in the universe would have done the opposite, but it didn't.

Of course, I realize none of this will mean anything at all to someone to hasn't come to the same realizations, but that's ok. It's not important that everyone follow my path or be like me.

Hello, Caelrie.

Maybe this kind of realisations are the reason why you can "break" the cycle of incarnations. If you do good for its own sake and without another stimulant like punishment or reward then you already have mastered a major lesson a lot of people have deep trouble with.

The idea that we chose to reincarnate after some point has been known in Buddhism, where Bodhisattvas reincarnate to teach and aid though they don't have to anymore. In that case, though, I would not call it addiction, as this is a fully aware and conscious process compared to just going for the next life time because we're not finished with ourselves.

I like your ideas/insights and would like to hear more of them if you like to share it here on the forums.

Take good care,
Oliver

[Caelrie]

Maybe this kind of realisations are the reason why you can "break" the cycle of incarnations. If you do good for its own sake and without another stimulant like punishment or reward then you already have mastered a major lesson a lot of people have deep trouble with.

To be more specific about the timeline involved, I wasn't able to figure out the true nature of karma until I'd already realized that I didn't need to be rewarded to do good for good's sake. Like so many things in the universe, things have a way of policing themselves, you know? You don't make a realization until you've built the goundwork that makes it possible to make that realization.

I found it fascinating when I came in contact with other people who'd also come to the same realization about karma, and without exception they'd also gone beyond the reward/punishment model of morality.

And yes, I agree. These realizations are the key to why I no longer have to reincarnate. You can't break the cycle if you still believe karma has power over you. Your own sense of guilt or entitlement will persuade you to go back and collect/pay. By the time you realize you can let go of those obligations, you've already gone past the need to fulfill them, if that makes sense.

For me, another side effect is that I know now I can't help anyone else with their karma, and I shouldn't try. The exception is if they ask for help, obviously, but even then any help I give can possibly rob them of experiences they think they need, which is unfair to them as fellow travelers and souls. It bring up a contradiction I'm still working on. The desire to do good for good's sake clashes with the knowledge that you must let others grow on their own in their own ways, whether they seem good or bad to you. Trying to find a balance can be difficult and requires wisdom I don't always have.




The idea that we chose to reincarnate after some point has been known in Buddhism, where Bodhisattvas reincarnate to teach and aid though they don't have to anymore. In that case, though, I would not call it addiction, as this is a fully aware and conscious process compared to just going for the next life time because we're not finished with ourselves.
It definitely doesn't surprise me that things I've realized have been realized before by others long ago. The funny part is that if I hadn't reached this point on my own, just like they did, I'd have been trying to constantly rationalize how it couldn't be true and how I must be an exception, for there just must be something exterior involved in my reincarnation cycle, right? heh

The simplest truism I've ever discovered in life is that a realization doesn't mean anything unless you arrived there on your own. Someone else can tell you the information a hundred times a day for a hundred years and it means nothing. Finally, when you've done the groundwork yourself to be ready for it, it "clicks" and you slap yourself.

[Jenn Lynn]

The exception is if they ask for help, obviously, but even then any help I give can possibly rob them of experiences they think they need, which is unfair to them as fellow travelers and souls. It bring up a contradiction I'm still working on.

this is a tricky one :) it began to occur to me one day (after i had spent some time wanting desperately to share with people the things i had been seeing, because i wanted them to see the same amazing things), that i would rob them of something as well. with the exception that it was me who saw something that they might need (and i maintain the possibility of being wrong about this). but i realized that the most amazing part of my journey over the past three years were the realizations and epiphanies that came as complete surprises to me. i didn't want to ruin that for anyone, because for me, that was one of the greatest prizes at the end of every period of trial and tribulation. you yearn for something for days, weeks, months on end, and then all of a sudden the answer comes to you, and there is nothing in your life that you can compare the pure joy of this realization to. tell me seven years ago that my mind would be where it is now, and i'd have you locked up. it really is about the journey, and the last thing i want to do is ruin the surprises for anyone. so i've resigned myself to casually leading people in certain directions, or just keeping my mouth shut (not easy for me!) :)

it can be incredibly frustrating when you know you lack the wisdom to act decisively, i find myself at odds with this CONSTANTLY. there are SO MANY FACTORS to consider, i find it overwhelming at times. we're always in training.

btw i apologize for any rambling, the beer is delicious tonight.

jennifer

[Jenn Lynn]

btw Oliver, i LOVE your arabian proverb.

[Caelrie]

this is a tricky one :) it began to occur to me one day (after i had spent some time wanting desperately to share with people the things i had been seeing, because i wanted them to see the same amazing things), that i would rob them of something as well. with the exception that it was me who saw something that they might need (and i maintain the possibility of being wrong about this). but i realized that the most amazing part of my journey over the past three years were the realizations and epiphanies that came as complete surprises to me. i didn't want to ruin that for anyone, because for me, that was one of the greatest prizes at the end of every period of trial and tribulation. you yearn for something for days, weeks, months on end, and then all of a sudden the answer comes to you, and there is nothing in your life that you can compare the pure joy of this realization to. tell me seven years ago that my mind would be where it is now, and i'd have you locked up. it really is about the journey, and the last thing i want to do is ruin the surprises for anyone. so i've resigned myself to casually leading people in certain directions, or just keeping my mouth shut (not easy for me!) :)

it can be incredibly frustrating when you know you lack the wisdom to act decisively, i find myself at odds with this CONSTANTLY. there are SO MANY FACTORS to consider, i find it overwhelming at times. we're always in training.

btw i apologize for any rambling, the beer is delicious tonight.

jennifer
When I'm in doubt, I just choose to help. I figure the harm done by them missing an experience is far less than the harm done by not getting needed help.

[ButterflyWoman]

I find that with spiritual things, you can tell people all sorts of stuff, and until and unless they're really ready for it or "already there", they won't understand. They may process it intellectually, but until they're spiritually ready for it, well, it won't sink in enough to spoil anything.

Then, when those surprises and "Ah HAH!" moments come, it's still a surprise, but you can say "Oh, yeah, I read about that... Cool..." ;)

[Jenn Lynn]

yeah, all this makes good sense to me...im still learning as well. something that recently occurred to me was this thing i read online...it was about how you get to a certain point in your life, and you can look back and see how all the events in your current life resemble an "intricately woven tapestry." i came across this analogy several times and never got it, until two years ago, when it finally made sense.


When I'm in doubt, I just choose to help. I figure the harm done by them missing an experience is far less than the harm done by not getting needed help.

how can you be sure about this? (don't take this as criticism) i mean , i guess i can just follow my instincts to good unto others as it makes sense to me, but is this appropriate for others? this is my struggle at times. do i think too much about it, or do i not yet have the wisdom to make these decisions? how do i know that what is real for me will be real for other people? this spiritual journey is such a singularly subjective experience...do i really know how to help people along their paths?

jennifer

[Jenn Lynn]

you know, the mandelbrot set is one of my favorite fractals, it is so incredibly beautiful in its defiance of intuition. to be able to dive into this mathematical artform infinitely ... no words.

http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~ishmnn/java/mandelbrot.html

jennifer

[Beekeeper]

When I'm in doubt, I just choose to help. I figure the harm done by them missing an experience is far less than the harm done by not getting needed help.

[quote:3cs7umuo]
how can you be sure about this? (don't take this as criticism) i mean , i guess i can just follow my instincts to good unto others as it makes sense to me, but is this appropriate for others? this is my struggle at times. do i think too much about it, or do i not yet have the wisdom to make these decisions? how do i know that what is real for me will be real for other people? this spiritual journey is such a singularly subjective experience...do i really know how to help people along their paths?
[/quote:3cs7umuo]

Anything we say or do may have consequences beyond our control. Thus, we learn the limits of our responsibility. Intention is probably the best guide. If you withhold information or share information and your reasons are good, then you cannot blame yourself in the face of recrimination by another.

[Korpo]

When I'm in doubt, I just choose to help. I figure the harm done by them missing an experience is far less than the harm done by not getting needed help.

how can you be sure about this? (don't take this as criticism) i mean , i guess i can just follow my instincts to good unto others as it makes sense to me, but is this appropriate for others? this is my struggle at times. do i think too much about it, or do i not yet have the wisdom to make these decisions? how do i know that what is real for me will be real for other people? this spiritual journey is such a singularly subjective experience...do i really know how to help people along their paths?

There is a method that is very straightforward in the astral - visit their Higher Self and ask them what you can do to their benefit or ask whether your intended action is to their benefit.

If you have access to guides or your Higher Self in trance or waking state you can also ask them.

Else you only have the choice of following your own judgement, which is a fine line we walk every day as humans which cannot be avoided.

Take good care,
Oliver

[Caelrie]

There is a method that is very straightforward in the astral - visit their Higher Self and ask them what you can do to their benefit or ask whether your intended action is to their benefit.

If you have access to guides or your Higher Self in trance or waking state you can also ask them.

Else you only have the choice of following your own judgement, which is a fine line we walk every day as humans which cannot be avoided.

Take good care,
Oliver
That's exactly why I'm here at AD. I want to learn to use that resource.

[sleeper]

Snowman23, I'm interested to see if your question was answered. Why are you looking to be free from reincarnation, and what do you expect to happen once you are free?