Empirical tests, hard facts and unquestionable proofs?

[aliceinwonderland]

Hi all,

I'm new to this site and at the risk of probably repeating this subject (although I tried finding similar posts on this forum and alas failed - so please guide me to them if they indeed exist), I was wondering if anyone had participated in any scientific experiments, or done his/her own tests (in a very controlled and reproducible environment) to prove beyond the shadow of any doubt the reality of OBEs, as opposed to being just a very lucid dream, a figment of our imagination?

I have read Charles Tart's experiment, however this was done a while ago and it's the only test as such that I've encountered. He also had a single successful subject. Considering the millions of people who project regularly, I just thought it may have crossed someone's mind to actually setup some valid tests. I definitely would...well if only I could project (sigh).

After all, we all want to answer the biggest question of all time: is there more to life than just inexorable death?

I am also familiar with Dr. Sam Parnia's NDE work and he is actually looking into conducting more extensive research by placing images/visual targets above patient's beds. I imagine that reported NDE experiences, although most of them did corroborate to a certain extent the fact that consciousness lives beyond the cessation of all brain activity, was still not convincing enough...hence these new tests.

So has anyone done conclusive experiments or has proof?

[kiwibonga]

As far as I know, there's virtually nothing out there in terms of reputable scientific studies... Otherwise, you'd probably already know about them...

Unfortunately, the field is still relatively new, and very few people have had success. You'll find a lot of projectors that have validation stories, but usually those happen by chance and really only confirm things for the person (or group) experiencing them.

I do plan on running experiments once I feel confident enough, if the opportunity presents itself, and I think others here do too.

In any case, projection is really not a hard thing to achieve... If you're interested, we'll be more than happy to give you advice.

Keep in mind, though, that projection doesn't prove life after death or the existence of a soul... It could all be so completely different from anything we could even remotely imagine...

[CFTraveler]

Hi and welcome, alice. These threads may be of interest to you:
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=5055
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=5080
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=927
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=1264

or, you may become sorry you asked. :lol:
Some of them are long, and some contentious. Please forgive me for some of those. (lol)

[CFTraveler]

I just wanted to add my .02 to your question: There will never be uncontrovertible proof to subjective experience, because by definition what the scientific method has the ability to measure is objective fact, so by definition this is impossible and it will not happen. The reason is that experience by definition will be subjective, so no matter how compelling evidence can be, it will always be subject to interpretation, and that is something that will never be separate from perception. Never. So, :?
:)

[rapidlearner]

CFTraveler I think your logic comes from a viewpoint that OBE's can't be disproven but I believe they can be proven...

There was a Test done on Chris Robinson - who is a very well known Psychic from the UK that has precognitive dreams. He claims to have predicted 9/11, 7/7 and helps find missing people - he actually has a television show in China (or Japan?) where he helps find missing persons

Anyway, He claims that his ability started after a NDE where he had an OBE... He says that all his precognitions come from very lucid dreams where he writes a question before hand and then the answer is revealed to him in his dreams.

Here is a link to a test he undertook some time ago:

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/Robinson.htm

There are loads of University's and Scientists that would bite someone's hand off to test their OBE or psychic abilities especially this one:

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/index.htm

A lot of people think scientists just want to dismiss the paranormal but a lot of them actually do want things proven, would take science into a whole new areana which would excite the boffins no end. I accept that its difficult for OBE's to be disproven but the tests are there, it can be proven...

The point is no one has proven it! And as much as I want to believe, that sounds alarm bells off in my head.

[rapidlearner]

Sorry I just thought about what I said above and I'd like to rephrase it a bit...

O.K. So it may be impossible to prove beyond any doubt that someone is having an OBE as it would have to be repeated in tests an unimaginable amount of times for it to be scientifically accepted... But if someone had the ability and others stepped forward and produced convincing results, it could eventually lead to assumptions in a way that doctors assume depression based on symptoms. :wink:

[CFTraveler]

CFTraveler I think your logic comes from a viewpoint that OBE's can't be disproven but I believe they can be proven... I don't think a validated OBE can be disproven, but someone with a materialistic viewpoint will (erroneously, IMO) explain it away as something else.
I'll give you one of my validations, and I think it's pretty buttoned down:
I fell asleep one day, I was home early from work, and I took a nap. I flew to my hubby's new job (we were recently married too) and saw him at his work. Saw him looking through a big box that looked like a giant fishing tackle box, with a pair of tweezers, going through a bunch of teeny tiny ball-bearing-like doohickeys. I came back, perplexed (he was hired as a counter man in a rental equipment store) and called him. He was flabbergasted, because he was actually changing the combination in his employer's lock. It turns out that he was going through lock-pins with a pair of tweezers to put into a tumbler attachment in a lock.
Fact: I did not know he knew how to do this (his dad's second job was as a locksmith, and he inherited his tools). We were recently married, and I did not know that about him.
It was his new job and I had never been there before, and the place looked like I saw it, which I became familiar with subsequently, as he went on to work there for the next eight years, and we're still married. :wink:
He was doing this at the time, and I called him immediately, because my vision didn't seem to make sense and he was still doing this as I called.

Now I can promise you that anyone with a materialistic mindset will take this apart and find all kinds of flaws.
However, I know what I saw, and so does my hubby.

[CFTraveler]

Sorry I just thought about what I said above and I'd like to rephrase it a bit...

O.K. So it may be impossible to prove beyond any doubt that someone is having an OBE as it would have to be repeated in tests an unimaginable amount of times for it to be scientifically accepted... But if someone had the ability and others stepped forward and produced convincing results, it could eventually lead to assumptions in a way that doctors assume depression based on symptoms. :wink: I agree with this in principle, but I'm not sure how many would step forward and be subjected to ridicule and accused of being insane to do this. Even though I don't have this kind of talent, if I did I don't know if I'd go through with it.

[rapidlearner]

for the next eight years, and we're still married.
Imagine if you got it wrong... "Sorry honey, you flew out of the house and saw me picking a fishing tackle box with tweezers? what have I got myself into!" :lol: just kidding!

Hmm... Do I think its a validation? I don't believe or disbelieve you. I know that you're admiting to not having the ability to undergo testing for a RTZ OBE, so it could be a statistical fluke e.g. someone has to win the lottery at a 1 in 14million chance... You could've had a one in a billion fluke of dreaming about his day at work and it's surroundings (maybe you should have played the lotto that day!) but seriously, unless you were able to undergo testing, it doesn't prove anything it just enforces a belief system for you and arguably for your husband or others that believe you.

As consciousness is so undefinable, I'm confident that most scientists would kill for a break through such as OBE's to be objectively proven. I think there is a perception of being ridiculed and subjected to Alien like testing amongst the psychic community which I think is over-exagerrated. The guy that I mentioned in the above post failed his precogntive or ESP test back in the mid nineties and he's arguably more popular/respected then he ever was and still works with detctives and T.V company's.

Science doesn't have to be there to prove you wrong, it can't! - A lot of people (Myself included) want it to prove the believers are right and until someone can do it or I'm able to validate them for myself, it's easy for the majority of people to remain skeptical.

[aliceinwonderland]

Hi guys,
sorry for the belated reply. I see a lot of interesting posts on this topic. CFTraveler, thanks for the previous links, I will browse thoroughly through them!

Kiwibonga, yes if you have some advice on projecting or a particular technique I would be more than happy to follow it. It's been very hard for me lately, especially with work, stress, daily routine, gym, etc...I find it quite difficult to cut a piece of the day just for yourself and dedicate it to OBE work. Guess I'll have to get my ducks in a row and be more assertive.

Anyway, I have to agree with Rapidlearner on his observations that generally science does in most cases try to prove as opposed to disprove. If you start with a negative frame of mind, even from a scientific standpoint you have already introduced a biased element in the equation. I think it would probably be one of the most revolutionary discoveries of our era if indeed it became scientifically accepted that OBEs are not just a vivid hallucination but actually our consciousness leaving our bodies.

And there is quite enough scientific, personal and religious evidence already which converges towards a certain universal truth. For example the latest discoveries in physics about superstrings and the 11 so called "spacial dimentions" and the fact that all matter is nothing but a vibration, eastern religions have this notion of astral realms (6 worlds in buddhism for example) each one having a different quantum of energy associated with it, then we have OBEs which also manifest by their inplicit nature, a strong connection with energy, vibrations and various bodies or envellopes of the human spirit. So...if we all draw parallels between these elements there are some strong similarities. What needs to be done is creating a proper infrastructure for testing, for gathering accurate data, for convincing projectors like yourselves to come forth and participate...after all is there anything more important than this in life? we're talking about discovering the true nature of the universe. I can't believe that illustrious minds from all branches of science would not be interested by such experiments.

I wonder if it would not be possible to start a core group of testers within this forum? How hard is it to create tests and validate them? I'm sure there are enough seasoned astral travellers who can project at will and experiment.


There will never be uncontrovertible proof to subjective experience, because by definition what the scientific method has the ability to measure is objective fact, so by definition this is impossible and it will not happen. The reason is that experience by definition will be subjective, so no matter how compelling evidence can be, it will always be subject to interpretation, and that is something that will never be separate from perception.

CFTraveler, are you saying that should two projectors, projecting in the same room at the same time in the same conditions, submit to an objective test, their responses and points of view would be completely different from one another? Does that mean that while in the astral realm, reality is subjective?? So for example if you put 3 coins on a table, one projector might say there were 5 coins and another might say there was a yellow duck swimming in a pond in the middle of the room (i'm just creating an analogy to make a point)? Hence no scientific experiment would be deemed valid?


Keep in mind, though, that projection doesn't prove life after death or the existence of a soul... It could all be so completely different from anything we could even remotely imagine...
Well I think if our topic at hand can be proven, we'd be one step closer to craking the truth wouldn't we? :wink: although I bet it would be harder to find volunteer test subjects for that one, hehe

[CFTraveler]

CFTraveler, are you saying that should two projectors, projecting in the same room at the same time in the same conditions, submit to an objective test, their responses and points of view would be completely different from one another? Does that mean that while in the astral realm, reality is subjective?? So for example if you put 3 coins on a table, one projector might say there were 5 coins and another might say there was a yellow duck swimming in a pond in the middle of the room (i'm just creating an analogy to make a point)? Hence no scientific experiment would be deemed valid? Not even close to what I said- what I said is that certain things are hard to objectify in the astral- numbers are hard to see and change just by looking at them (this is illustrated in many examples of accounts here in this board). Also look up 'Alice in Wonderland' effect in the AD Pedia- and we tend to interpret what we see according to our experiences and preconceptions. So using your example of the 5 coins: Some people would see the coins, someone else would see what the money represents (bread, food on a table, etc.), and someone who has an unhealthy relationship with money may even see bugs instead of money. But it's more complicated than that: For example, one of the projectors may not be able to get out due to performance anxiety, or have a blind obe and not see anything.... but that's not even my point. My point is that even if the two projectors were able to get out, see the five coins, the bias of the experimenters would try to explain it away. And although, as you said, bias should not be part of any scientific experiment, the fact is that materialistic bias is part of the preexisting package in the scientific community, and all you have to do is read the reports of the studies that have been reported, not in this thread, but in this subforum, and the way that they are reported.

[Korpo]

Hello, Alice.

Even in the RTZ (see AD-Pedia) there can be differences in perception.

The real "through the looking glass" ;) however starts in the Astral Plane.

How different can two accounts be?

Well, look at Monroe's first book, "Journeys Out of the Body". There he recounts an experience in what he called "Scenario II" (which is the Astral). A gong-like sound resonates, and all present bow down while "the Big One comes" or something like that.

Compares this to what Robert Bruce wrote in "Astral Dynamics" (the book) about the Astral Wind, Akashic Pulse and Karmic Seeds.

I'm very certain both describe the exact same thing - the distribution of the Karmic Seeds by the Source. But Monroe's experience is riddled with symbolism, because in his early travels his mind had not sufficiently grown to take all the experiences in and understand them.

So, two projectors can have wildly varying perceptions of the same phenomenon, IMO.

Be well,
Oliver

[CFTraveler]

Here is some more reading, illustrating some of what I said above:

Study bias:

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=9343

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=4932



Reality fluctuations in our posters' experiences:

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=1774

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=2638

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=2791

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=950