Using OBE to explore the nature of reality

[wstein]

When I started to practice inducing OOBE (whatever it is)in conscious way, I hoped to reveal by experience a meaning of life - that was abovious for me, that the more we perceive, the more we can comprehend. But I got dissapointed as soon as I had realized, that OOBE doesn't provide me to explore external reality at all. But even up to this day I value experiences like those as a great fun. I'm curious why you (Sephir or anyone else) were unable to use OBE to explore the nature of reality. True that simply going to RTZ or Astral planes is not that informative in this regard (unless you find a being to talk with).

I found that traveling to more varied and distant 'places' at least dispelled of lot of tentative possibilities as the nature of the reality. Especially helpful were trips to other incarnations, locations without physical form, locations of near pure consciousness, etc.

[journyman161]

There would seem to be an assumption that there is a 'Reality' to explore. I've been wondering a bit the same, that maybe OBE allows you to explore your reality (small 'r') & not any viable external Reality.

I find it passing strange that the astral worlds seem so different for each explorer & to me the logical way to think of it is that it is different for each explorer because they are creating their own version of it.

I'm wondering if it is like a book - the words are there for everyone, but each of us brings our own experience & knowledge along & we each get a unique experience when we read it, because the words are taken in & viewed through the filter of our lives.

[CFTraveler]

Theoretically (according to the experts, and I'm beginning to agree with them) the 'creativity quotient' increases the farther away you get from the RTZ, which makes sense if you follow the laws of quantum unpredictability- most 'sages' and 'masters' describe the astral planes as ways of existence (even the words 'locales' imply, well, locality *ahem* which makes it hard to describe) but please bear with me- that the 'higher in vibration' they are, the more thought responsive they are- so that the less matter associated with them (the higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelength, the more unpredictable, it would follow (in my logic anyway) that the medium (again with the inadequate words) would be more thought responsive- so if you go way high everything you encounter you create.
Some of us believe that you do it in all aspects of reality- the only diff. is that in material reality the bandwith is longer, the frequency lower (but not lowest) so it takes longer (subordinate to timespace) to create your reality. In a predictable (enough) way.
Of course these are my musings.
I do have to say that in my adventures I have gone to places that have been reported and I wasn't privy to them- I had the experience and then someone said 'Ah! You went to the Temple of Shamballa, or you had a dreamstate lesson- so not all the environment is indiviually created- some of it seems to be collectively created- like the hospital areas, and others that I've experienced as others have.
I do have to say that I have also experienced things that I hadn't seen much of, and my particular strange stories got me here specifically because I was looking for someone who had had similar experiences I had- and I found them here as opposed to other places.
This doesn't prove anything- to experience is to experience, and to some extent it is the same as waking reality- the old cheesy adage-"Wherever you go, there you are"- and the Astral is no different.

[Moonchild]

There are many layers and levels to consciousness. On some level, we are all connected. It takes tremendous awareness, discipline, and energy to pierce to that level, but bits and pieces come through quite often.

Another complication is the way that it works. People can not help but try to apply the same laws of causation and comprehension to the astral that they experience in the physical, but that is not the way that it works at all. The only way we are able to comprehend the astral is through our intuitive and symbolic capacities.

We do NOT directly experience the astral in the same terms we experience the physical. Consciousness is a construction of awareness. What we are conscious of under trance is JUST what is in our awareness, but we are not experiencing it directly, instead it is a manifestation of awareness.

Often what is in our consciousness entirely reflects a personal reality - this is a manifestation of what is currently in our awareness, from within. But often other things will enter our awareness, things of external origin.

Consciousness that reflects primarily external reality - that is how we experience the RTZ.

[Sephir]

I'm curious why you (Sephir or anyone else) were unable to use OBE to explore the nature of reality.

First of all, I want to ask : What is Reality? We perceive the world within ourselves. Our five senses receive some external stimulus and pass it to the brain, where it is processed forming our picture of the world, and we perceive nothing outside this picture. We perceive only within the range to which we are attuned, and we do that in subjective way depended on our senses. Thus, living in our "world" we know absolutely nothing about reality.

It's really difificult to comprehend, because we haven't dealt with diferent way of perception. In order to explore the reality, we have to be able to see what happens outside us, outside five senses. It's extremely hard to realize that we live in subjective illusion until we start to perceive what happens outside us (how to make it - keep reading )

OOBE doesn't provide us to perceive any new sort of perception even in our illusory reality. Moreover, such experience makes our perception more subjective and illusory. I don't care whether OOBE provide us to perceive a "real" material world, or not. I guess so, but our material world perceived by 5 senses is not a reality outside of my body!

My question about the meaning of life, and the nature of reality was really strong. I saw no reasons to live without precise knowledge about such things, and I knew that belief, or religious way of thinking can't satisfy me at all. I was searching the real method to reveal the explanation by myself for long years, and finally - I've found the real science which provides as to perceive Reality outside us, to reveal a huuuge picture of the World. It's kabbalah. I'd like to emphasize, that I'm talking about a real revealing in scientific, empirical way.

Don't take me wrong, I'm not interested to encourage everybody to study kabbalah, that's not my intention at all. I'm just trying to anser your question honestly : we know nothing about Reality until we start to reveal it by studying kabbalah.

Sincerely

[Moonchild]

Excellent post Sephir, much better articulated than my own, though I would like to discuss a couple of points.

Thus, living in our "world" we know absolutely nothing about reality.

I agree that we basically live in a cloud of perceptions largely of our own making, however I don't think we know "nothing" about 'reality'.

To say 'reality' is an illusion is an unfortunate injustice, I think, because it attempts to invalidate life and the lives we lead. I actually think life and the lives we lead are very important - illusion or no.

If it is true that there is a mystical purpose behind the universe, than how could it not be true there is a mystical purpose behind our earthly existence?

I think one of the primary reasons for all the controversy is the fact that consensus 'reality' can be all too intrusive. Hunger, pain, and death, caused all too often by intrusion from external 'reality' are facts of life - and good things are facts of life too.

OOBE doesn't provide us to perceive any new sort of perception even in our illusory reality. Moreover, such experience makes our perception more subjective and illusory.

I think OOBE provides us exactly a different sort of perception from our normal 'reality'. While it may be more subjective, I think the illusion part has more to do with what you think you see, rather than what you actually see. I think it is just as possible to discern 'reality' in OOBE as in normal consciousness - much more so, actually.

After all, if some ancient jews could discern the Kaballah with just the 5 senses, couldn't our contemporaries discern the same realizations with even more?

Just a thought.

"We don't see reality as it is, we see reality as we are."
~The Torah~

[star]

If you believe that its impossible to know the truth, you limit yourself.

If you tell yourself that there is only one way, you also limit yourself.

Humans have the capability to expand far and into infinitum, I respectfully disagree with your take on reality and the means into understanding it Sephir.

You seem to be very, very intelligent. I just don't want to see you degrade your own potential.

[Sephir]

First of all, I'm sorry in advance for the way I'm expressing my opinion - it's just hard to be talking about kabbalah to somebody who doesn't really know what is that. Moreover, it's hard to be talking about perception if we don't know any alternative. That's why what I'm saying might seems strange, or even proud.


After all, if some ancient jews could discern the Kaballah with just the 5 senses, couldn't our contemporaries discern the same realizations with even more?

That's a good question. Kabbalah as a science doesn't use 5 senses to discern the world outside us, because it's impossible. Kabbalah develops new kind of sense independed on the body, called "soul". Although it sounds unbelievable, every one is able to develop such sense, and usually it takes 3-5 years. Kabbalah is an ancient science (first kabbalists was born 5000 years ago), but that science has been developing for these years, the method of making and using sixth sense has been adjusting to different generations.

Even nowadays we still know nothing about the reality outside us without external perception, because even using some kinds of devices (such as microscope) we still cannon to hack through own senses. The more sciences develop, the more we are able to find out about OWN SENSES, not about Reality.


To say 'reality' is an illusion is an unfortunate injustice, I think, because it attempts to invalidate life and the lives we lead. I actually think life and the lives we lead are very important - illusion or no.

I haven't even mentioned that reality we live in is not important. Look, we live in completly closed world, as a matter of fact, almost without any freedom of will, we take part in some huge process - what's the reason, what's the purposes? You said :
I actually think life and the lives we lead are very important
Although I agree with you, I'd like to ask : how do you know that? Do you feel that? Do you perceive that in a clear way? Maybe you just believe it's so?

I would not like to take part in a serious discusses based on religious way of thinking. For example : "I believe in God", "And I believe in Mickey Mouse". Sorry for such example, but I'd like to make some things clear - let's talk about things we KNOW, or if we don't, let's talk about the method of reaching that knowledge. That's why I mentioned about kabbalah - you just don't have to believe at all, and every thing you're able to check out in empircal way.


I think it is just as possible to discern 'reality' in OOBE as in normal consciousness - much more so, actually.
Do you know, that as a matter of fact, you have no freedom of choice? You were born in place you haven't chosen. You have properties, DNA, that you haven't chosen. You were growing up in family you haven't chosen. You believe things your enviroment has chosen instead of you. And finally, you making some decisions accordind to your desires, that you haven't chosen. If you could know all of your properties, and you could know how the world works, you would be able to predict each minute of your life. And now, tell me : do you know what will happed with you in 5 minutes?

What am I trying to say? We even can't comprehend how the "illusion" works untill we perceive the world outside us. That's why such experiences as OOBE, or even daily life, might seem to be exploring reality. Tell me, do you feel lack of your sixth finger, or third hand? You don't, because you didn't feel them before.

Now, I'm going to reply Star's post :

If you believe that its impossible to know the truth, you limit yourself.I didn't say that. Maybe you understood me wrong due to my not very good english. If so, I'm sorry, I've been still working on it. But after all, I don't believe, I know that it's possible to reveal the truth by oneself.

If you tell yourself that there is only one way, you also limit yourself.I was looking for a way to reveal some things for long years, and I've found it. Thus, according to own experience I can say : there is one science which enables us to make it. If you know some other way to reveal reality beyond visual forms, sound, touch, taste and feel - tell me about it. Don't take me worng, I'm not being ironical saying that - if what you said is based on your own percetion and experience, I would be grateful for sharing them with me.

Humans have the capability to expand far and into infinitumHave you reached infinitum?
I'd like to emphasize that I believe nothing. What I say is based on own experience and perception. I'm not a follower of philosophical way of thinking or discussion. I will respect with pleasure your own experiences and reached perception, but it's difficult for me to respect something what haven't been reached and perceived by you.

What I'd like to say is "I'm sorry". I realize that what I'm saying is not really nice, but I do that deliberately, in order to induce to deep reflection. In my opinion, there is no more imporant topic than "perception of reality", and "the meaning of life".

Sincerely

[CFTraveler]

Do you know, that as a matter of fact, you have no freedom of choice? You were born in place you haven't chosen. You have properties, DNA, that you haven't chosen. You was growing up in family you haven't chosen. I have to disagree. I have communicated with enough aspects of my higher self to know that I indeed chose all of the above things. The temporal part of me may not have known that, but the aspect of me that I communicated with has helped me enough to understand this. In fact, in my opinion the above is a belief construct, and nothing more.

If you could know all of your properties, and you could know how the world works, you would be able to predict each minute of your life. And now, tell me : do you know what will happed with you in 5 minutes? If the temporal part of me knew all this it would not be the temporal part of me. Which is the point that I tried to make above.
Maybe we are talking about two different things, but if I had decided not to incarnate, then all of me wouldn't have any perceptual limitations, because perception would be a non issue.

[star]

I don't understand the way your discussing this, and not becuase your english may be poor, in fact its excellent.

Of course no one here has reached such a high level yet, its just that i haven't been using your way and I have made incredible progress into understanding myself, and this world.

Its to say that you can take a path of any mental discipline and learn these things.

I would suggest Zazen.

[wstein]

Do you know, that as a matter of fact, you have no freedom of choice? You were born in place you haven't chosen. You have properties, DNA, that you haven't chosen. You was growing up in family you haven't chosen.

This is overly narrow.

Fortunately you are not your body. While perhaps your (forced) circumstances restrict you, they do not contain you. All of those things will pass.

---
I am inferring that most (all?) of your OBEs have been to near places (RTZ, Astral, etc). I totally agree that the additional perspective gained from these is minimal at best.

Yes, its true that many spend a great deal of time and effort doing OBE and have nothing to show of it besides a lot of stories. It doesn't have to be that way.

Regarding the Kabbalah, of which I know very little, I want to make a suggestion regarding its use in OBE: specifically, the tree of life (10 circles, lots of lines). In addition to being aspects of the divine expression, they are actual 'locales' that can be visited. While I did not get there via the Kabbalah, I recognized the descriptions. I suggest that rather than reading about it, you can just go and experience it. Surely anything that can be learned by studying the Kabbalah can be learned through OBE to those actual places. Where do you think the ancient mystics got it from?

From my experience visiting these sort of places does strip away many silly notions about the nature of reality. While perhaps it does not directly explain anything, it does provide a much better framework to answer the question of reality.

-----

I know that some amount of learning about the nature of reality is gained via OBE. The most common (though trivial) is to learn that we are not our bodies. The first time you see your body from the outside and realize that 'you' still exist causes a fundamental and profound change (same experience as an NDE). This is perhaps were some learn of the idea of a soul.

OBE can open the mind and other aspects of self which is essential in asking the question about the nature of reality. The very fact of being able to talk about the 'illusion', 'mutually constructed realities', 'our own world', 'outside the five senses', 'touching infinit[y]' can come from experiences gained via OBE.

-----

Sephir: I know you have found your tool that seems to be working for you at the moment. However, its not the answer for everyone. From my point of view you still have a long way to go to explore the fullness of the Kabbalah. To this I say, good, go with what works.

As far as this topic, seems to me you are speaking more about your limitations with using OBE as a tool than truly addressing the limitations of that tool.

[Moonchild]

Surely anything that can be learned by studying the Kabbalah can be learned through OBE to those actual places. Where do you think the ancient mystics got it from?


Thank you CFT for so much more eloquently stating what I was trying to.

Actually it was wstein that articulated it- excellently, I agree with everything he said.-CF

{EDIT} How did I confuse that?! Thanks for pointing it out. :)

[Sephir]

Surely anything that can be learned by studying the Kabbalah can be learned through OBE to those actual places. Where do you think the ancient mystics got it from?Kabbalah is not talking about any places at all, including mentioned tree of life. Moreover, kabbalah has nothing common with misticism and mistics. I suppose I wrote already about the method of exporing reality using by kabbalists.

If kabbalah is interesting to you, I'll try to explain in different topic what it is.

[CFTraveler]

Sephir wrote:
If kabbalah is interesting to you, I'll try to explain in different topic what it is. I'd love to read your take on it.

[wstein]

Surely anything that can be learned by studying the Kabbalah can be learned through OBE to those actual places. Where do you think the ancient mystics got it from?Kabbalah is not talking about any places at all, including mentioned tree of life. Moreover, kabbalah has nothing common with misticism and mistics. I suppose I wrote already about the method of exporing reality using by kabbalists.

If kabbalah is interesting to you, I'll try to explain in different topic what it is. I was in no way suggesting that Kabbalists were using OBE nor currently practicing what modern mystics practice. I agree that Kabbalists I have met do not in any way see the circles in the tree of life as being 'locations'.

My point is that using the (mystical) OBE techniques, one can arrive at the same revelations about the nature of reality as by studying written material.

Clearly one method or the other is better for most people/beings. I would suggest that neither are particularly accessible for most.

Its clear from reading the posts on this forum that advanced OBE takes many years (decades) to master. From what I read and hear, good understanding of the Kabbalah can also take years (decades).

Sephir: I don't think you are making your point/position/question clearly to the rest of us. What I grasp is that you have been able to gain some insight into the nature or reality through access to the Kabbalah and have not been able through OBE. Perhaps you are simply stating this, or perhaps you are trying to suggest an alternative method. What is SOUNDS like is that you think OBE is a useless tool for probing the nature or reality. While this last alternative may be your experience, it conflicts with the experience of others (including me). The intent of my original question is to find out what limitations have made OBE less than effective in exploring the nature of reality.

Clearly you (and others) have not been able to use OBE as a tool, this is a given supported by much written material. Indicating you use the Kabalah instead is interesting, but has not been presented in a way to show the flaws in OBE (or improvements offered by the Kabalah, a different and perhaps interesting topic in itself).

[Sephir]

Thank you for replies. I've just written some long post in "misticism" section, titled "Find out about kabbalah". I guess that post is exactly what I'd like to say about OOBE as well, so I suggest you to find this post as my comment to your replies in this topic.
I was in no way suggesting that Kabbalists were using OBE nor currently practicing what modern mystics practice. Oh, I'm sorry, I understood you incorrectly because of my "fresh" english. I should read more accurately.


My point is that using the (mystical) OBE techniques, one can arrive at the same revelations about the nature of reality as by studying written material.My experience with OOBE is not enough rich to be talking about it as advanced traveller. However I've experienced about 40 OOBE and it's enough for me to compare it with perception gained by studying kabbalah. Please, read my just written topic I mentioned to understand me correctly.

Regards

[wstein]

In an attempt to bridge the terminology, I assume you are commenting on OBE as a form of perception in order to learn about the 'upper forces'.

{assuming the above}:
I feel that OBE techniques can be used to go to 'locations' where the upper forces are more directly 'visible'.

I have taken others OBE and what limits their experience is their ability to perceive in such unfamiliar constructs of 'reality'. Its clear to both of us that we are in the same 'location', but they can barely make anything out and I can identify objects and interact with the environment. In my experience those with better energy skills always perceive/sense more on OBE trips (not that they necessarily understand it). Perhaps the limitation of OBE to explore the nature of reality is actually a limitation of one's ability to perceive, and not a limitation of where OBE can take you.

[Moonchild]

Perhaps the limitation of OBE to explore the nature of reality is actually a limitation of one's ability to perceive, and not a limitation of where OBE can take you.


Absolutely agree.