Everything perceived in the OBE is projection or not

[Antares]

Robert Monroe in one of the excerpts from OBE experiences gave a suggestion that perceiving people, objects, beings etc. could be a projection. This was the case e.g. with one man, the explorer who met in this state a strange female being, and they had communication issues (she didn't quite know what is matter for instance), and they both couldn't say whether they perceived true form of themselves, or each of them perceived just a projection. Another similar example is for people-believers in their after-life experiencing the version of paradise in accord with their religious beliefs. Examples are numerous, but the general idea is clear: our mind is the ultimate observer, but the question about the precision of the form perceived is still open.

What do you think - is everything perceived in OBE, LD, and similar states of consciousness, ultimatately just a projection?

[Antares]

There is a certain, not often raised, preassumption that LD and OBE are two very different things. IMO they are very similar. The reason why LD is treated as a separate experience is the fact that it is perceived as a more tangible version of imagination - and imagination is usually related to the visual sense; LD covers more senses, and hence is treated as tangible, which is the main difference between them.

However, in LD (but also ESP) you can perceive things from what you would indicate as the reality, and in OBE - you can face 'your own' (are they yours?) projections.

But I would treat the LD, clairvoyance, ESP and OBE as very close experiences - much closer than it is usually thought. The thing is that the degree to which your own projections interfere with what you treat as 'the reality' is blurred and not as clear as black-or-white.

As it is already known, the material reality is not rigid - it's the manifestation, or in other words, simulation - and the physical senses have been designed for the human being thousands years ago to present him or her it as such. Energy flows through every single material objects all the time, but our physical senses simply overlook this essential fact - essential for understanding the true nature of the reality, which is energy (matter is a manifstation therefore).

Actually, Robert Bruce suggested this, but I'd like to make it clear here: one can make OBE to be the LD experience, and vice versa. And this raises a number of questions: what is the reality then, what we are expriencing, are we the co-creators of the reality through our projections, are our projections filters through which we perceive the reality, are filters part of the reality, is astral projection 'just' a projection, and so on. These questions actually partly explain what is essentially magic.

In the center of these questions is the idea of projection: what it is, actually?

[Antares]

But I would treat the LD, clairvoyance, ESP and OBE as very close experiences
And one more thing: the opposite to projection (as a synonym to a sort of illusion in the common sense) is clarity. This is key question here.

On the Tree of Life Yesod reperesents the realm of illusions and dim consciousness - often depicted as reflections; when the consciousness travels through higher planes than this one, planes are more and more clear. The opposition to Yesod (and Malkuth) is Kether, the full consciousness, in the Tree of Life. When one becomes conscious, one is able to control the projections, illusions, and the reality. I think that it doesn't happen "suddenly", it's not any sort of enlightment (whatever enlightment is in fact) or anything - it is simply making mind clearer; clearer mind means clearer and wider, more expansive perception - as opposed to the physical and 'ghosty' perception of lower realms of Malkuth and Yesod.

The goal of clairvoyance and similar abilities, therefore, is to come from the point of Malkuth (physical senses) and Yesod (etheric projections) higher, so that mind became clearer - and thus one can perceive what is beyond the closest 'environment', like touch or physical sight. ESP researchers often call it 'remote view', but IMO it is just one of many effects of such 'development' - going from the 'bottom' level to the 'top' level. (Although this linear approach could be misleading here - I put it simply to have any reference for lack of better reference points, and the Tree of Life seems to be handy).

This does not explain everything: perception (seeing your projections) is an opposition to creation (creating your projections), but when on percieves he or she also creates, and vice versa - in his or her mind - and this leads again to the question of what is projection.

My experiences with such abilities tell it is not that simple to distinguish both. Furthemore, there is often unwritten assumption that if you experience in the OBE state something that something 'should' have a reference in the physical as a confirmation that it is not your own 'imagination' or projection.

In short, I think we need a better key to research the ASC states.

[CFTraveler]

They say the world is a mirror. Both worlds, the internal and external worlds (IMO) are mirrors of each other. Or both are a projection of 'something else', whatever that may be.