I think I did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cannonballz05]

I felt a strong tightness at the base of my spine that moved up hitting certain spots(chakras) and as soon as it reached my head it made this crazy sound and I was out of my body. It felt like I was in a bubble(orb) or something. I felt like a million bucks all day. It hasn't happened again since. can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that the rising?

[Beekeeper]

Can't speak from experience, Canonball, but it sounds fantastic, whatever it was. :D

[Tempestinateapot]

It could be a raising, but I haven't heard of Kundalini going OBE. A raising is different from the main event. From what I've heard from Robert, the main event feels like a fist sized thing going upward and separating, then twisting through the chakras. The crown chakra opens and energy kind of sprouts like a fountain. He also talks about a flap that appears and hangs over the front of the head. I think a number of things can happen, maybe depending on how many times a main event has occured.

Your experience could be a very strong exit that sent you OBE. I think Robert's new book, coming out at the end of this month will cover some things about Kundalini. Aunt Clair knows alot about Kundalini, but she's not feeling well right now. When she comes back online, she'll probably see your post and answer.

[Cannonballz05]

thank u

[alwayson4]

It could be a raising, but I haven't heard of Kundalini going OBE. .


RB specifically talks about an NDE type of OBE occurring during the first Kundalini raising.

Cannonballz05, can you tell us more about your experience, and how you did it.

[sash]

Because of such a strong energy caused by kundalini, it seems to loosen the astral body from the physical body, making an OBE quite likely, esp. if you raised it to a certain degree and then stopped.

[upstream]

I can say for sure now that many of my early OBEs was due to increased kundalini conductivity. Even todays energies I have to control at separation feel closely related to kundalini. As I understand these things, harsh noises and vibrations that come with an OBE are mainly due to the piezolectric component of kundalini activation.

Monroe original method with those repulsive lines and moving focal point stands as a great example of conscious manipulation of kundalini. The actual mechanism becomes more evident in the modification that Peterson has made but it would be tough to explain in details.

Basically the main difference that he had to use the bindu point (the one at the head) and not its projection at the sacrum / lower dan tien (kanda). His state, being in an altered state of consciousness, favored this method.

That bubble perception explains everything. As far as I understand this perception emerges spontaneously only when a high degree of conductivity is achieved by closing the piezolelectic and nerve components of the circuit. Gopi Krishna wrote:


Suddenly, with a roar like that of a waterfall, I felt a stream of liquid light entering my brain through the spinal cord. Entirely unprepared for such a development, I was completely taken by surprise; but regaining my self-control, keeping my mind on the point of concentration. The illumination grew brighter and brighter, the roaring louder, I experienced a rocking sensation and then felt myself slipping out of my body, entirely enveloped in a halo of light. It is impossible to describe the experience accurately. I felt the point of consciousness that was myself growing wider surrounded by waves of light. It grew wider and wider, spreading outward while the body, normally the immediate object of its perception, appeared to have receded into the distance until I became entirely unconscious of it. I was now all consciousness without any outline, without any idea of corporeal appendage, without any feeling or sensation coming from the senses, immersed in a sea of light simultaneously conscious and aware at every point, spread out, as it were, in all directions without any barrier or material obstruction. I was no longer myself, or to be more accurate, no longer as I knew myself to be, a small point of awareness confined to a body, but instead was a vast circle of consciousness in which the body was but a point, bathed in light and in a state of exultation and happiness impossible to describe.

[CFTraveler]

Hey upstream- Where's Bruce?

[Aunt Clair]

I felt a strong tightness at the base of my spine that moved up hitting certain spots(chakras) and as soon as it reached my head it made this crazy sound and I was out of my body. It felt like I was in a bubble(orb) or something. I felt like a million bucks all day. It hasn't happened again since. can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that the rising?

Between April and May , a group of us had a similar event . To me it occured like this .

I was lying in bed and began to vibe up as is normal for me from the feet first . But the energy rose up my spine in an unusual way and came out my mouth as golden dust clairvoyantly viewed .

Suddenly I jolted out of my head as golden dust and formed my silhouette in size and shape . I could see my body lying in bed clearly for a moment then I was back in it .

My friends in circle have experienced similar events . Imho as the body continues to develop different elemental energies manifest and new tan tiens manifest . Each tan tien provides a new form of projection we call this one stardust and the tan tien a star .

With this new element came lessons about the limbs especially drawing energy into the arms from the hands and making the golden lion from the sun which is a form of rope like psi drawn from an orb by the magician .

I am sure kundalini causes the development and that you would have risen it before to get to this stage but I think that this projection is part of a global contagion that some people are ripe for and so it comes to them too .

http://members.iinet.net.au/~curran/smiles_files/image215.gif

[upstream]

Hey upstream- Where's Bruce?
Somewhere in Australia, or probably touring around the globe, I'm not sure hehe. Good to see you again, CFT!

In NEW kundalini isn't explained. Bruce also seems to confuse the external and internal components of chakras. I think one cannot really manipulate chakras or raise kundaini before accessing the "omkar reality" (as called in kriya yoga), that is having been imploded or at least partially extended into the central channel of consciousness (sushumna nadi). And when its done its more comfortable to escape from the confusing kundalini noises and vibrations by leaving the body behind.

[Aunt Clair]

Hey upstream- Where's Bruce?
Somewhere in Australia, or probably touring around the globe, I'm not sure hehe. Good to see you again, CFT!
Robert Bruce's professional agenda is on the Home page of this site
http://www.astraldynamics.com/
Coast To Coast AM Interview~Robert Bruce will appear for a 3 hr interview on Coast To Coast AM radio, with George Noory, on May 16th
http://www.astraldynamics.com/workshops ... etinID=643 (http://www.astraldynamics.com/workshops/?BoardID=34&BulletinID=643)
Ohio"Energy and Intention"3-day non-residential in Cleveland, Ohio
May 26th, 27th, 28th, 07


In NEW kundalini isn't explained.
NEW is a concise method offered in a free tutorial about energy awareness training and raising energy in the full body circuit . But Robert Bruce is an expert on the Human Energy Body and its development and he has written about kundalini in other treatises . He has also begun a series of books on Energy the first of which is foundations of Energy Work .It is titled
Energy Work: The Secret of Healing and Spiritual Development
Here is a link ;
http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewto ... highlight= (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=7451&highlight=)

Bruce also seems to confuse the external and internal components of chakras. How so ? I have never found Robert Bruce to be confusing in his writing or to be confused in his understandings about the human energy body either. He has mapped out the chakras through energy awareness techniques .And he has demonstrated the internal structure of chakras on the joints of the phalanges .

I think one cannot really manipulate chakras or raise kundaini before accessing the "omkar reality" (as called in kriya yoga), that is having been imploded or at least partially extended into the central channel of consciousness (sushumna nadi).
Please explain your perspective . Have you raised kundalini ? Was this perception found to be true in your own experience ? I have sustained several flames of kundalini and I have never had lessons or any understandings of an omkar reality . Perhaps only the nomenclature is unfamiliar .It would seem to me to be an esoteric understanding particular to one culture and though possibly universal not necessarily so .



Omkar is Om, the Divine Reality sustaining the universe, whose nature is vibration and whose aspects of sound, light and movement sensation are the main focus of the kriyaban’s concentration.Let us understand why it is correct to affirm that the purpose of Kriya Yoga is to attain a complete and perfect tuning with the Omkar Reality. He who follows the mystical path infallibly meets the Omkar manifestation of the Spirit, whatever may be his preparation and his convictions.

Since the beginning of the Kriya path, as soon as the mind is sufficiently calm, the inner sweet sound of Om grabs the kriyaban’s awareness and leads it in depth without any danger of getting lost...

But, as already pointed out, the Omkar perception has different degrees of manifestation.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:IO4 ... cd=1&gl=au (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:IO4QKqGyi48J:www.kriyayogainfo.net/glossary.html+omkar+reality&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au)

[CFTraveler]

I was actually talking about upstream's old avatar, which had a picture of Bruce willis. but the info's good too.

[Aunt Clair]

oops forgive me please I misunderstood :oops:

[Tempestinateapot]

I think upstream misunderstood you, too, CF. :D Unless Bruce Willis is also in Australia or touring the world? :lol:

[upstream]

Yeah CFT has made fun of us. I forgot to put up the old avatar. It kind of lost the lol factor over the years. Sorry for any misunderstanding on Robert Bruce, if it was any. I still claim that his view on chakras and kundalini is not clear or has not been explained in sufficient depth, which is, I admit, still a better approach than rehasing the newage bs. that circulates the web.

At least Bruce's New Energy System works. It's simple and safe to practice, something which we can't tell about Mantak Chia's self-made pop-taoism that has easily ruined many lifes. Without NEW I would not be practicing energy work the way I do and I'm grateful for that.

Aunt, I've just read a tread of yours about using deep breaths to cleanese the energy system. For some reason you seemed to be drawn to a set of exercises I miss the most from NEW, emphasizing the role of the skeleton system in energy work. Even though bone marrow nei kung has not much to do with chakras at the first place, nor have joints or other parts of the system that Bruce calls terciary and secondary circuit, the piezolectric component of kundalini is apparently rooted here.

I will try to sum up my toughts on this later when I have more time. Who knows we might end up with a new understanding about kundalini and chakras.

[CFTraveler]

Sorry about that- I used to enjoy that avatar. :oops: :lol: . Carry on with y'all's conversation.

[Aunt Clair]

Actually , beyond what I learn in meditation and from clairvoyant observations, Robert Bruce and Mantak Chia are the authors who have most influenced my own work . I hold them in the highest regard . And if my own work must be held in derision I am honoured to be ridiculed on the same list as these metaphysicists .

They are geniuses in energy body development . They are both internationally known and invited to present workshops globally . They have both written important metaphysical books . And they both have given altruistically to the international community to further its understanding of the human energy body development .

And as humans become more educated on the human energy body themselves , it will become even more apparent just how important the studies of these two men have been to furthering the metaphysical understandings of energy centres and energy flow .

Although I remain convinced that humans continue to shift up slowly in their vibration , and knowing full well that future generations will know so much more than we understand today , I am still confident that history will acknowledge them both as pioneers.

Being on the cutting edge , some of what they present is going to be hard to accept because ancient esoteric works will not confirm new material . Being peerless , they have to be confident . I am impressed at their humility and their willingness to come forward despite the fact that few can understand the full measure of what they have learned . They both try to break it down and present it .

As for Robert Bruce , I know how many hours of service he has given to the international community in online advice . I am personally aware of countless lives he has touched and a few he has saved . I am sure that these numbers continue to grow daily .

I feel Robert Bruce has a great understanding of what it means to break it down . And he has purposely taken the time to write foundations before he write a book about Kundalini . People think they need to learn about kundalini first but that is backwards . Mother Kundalini is a great teacher too.

But People do need foundations . They need to learn first how to purge , deep cleanse and raise energy . Robert has undertaken a task of writing a series of books towards that effect .

And the world owes a huge debt to Mantak Chia who has translated bodies of work from ancient Taoist texts .Yet for his labour of love he is accused of plagiarism . I have not found that allegation to be true . I find he cites what is translated and brings forward with lucidity that which he has discovered for himself .

And there is more than one body of Taoist Alchemy . I am impressed with his form only . I am not impressed with the boys who seek immortality and presume that women can not . The "Alchemists" who believe the path to wisdom is in the "stillness of the quiet mind " are not filling books with the collective contemplations of their navel dust . Nor do I see the likes of them in the ashrams of immortal teaching spirits . The immortals are servants . They are not so self absorbed as to sit and think nothing for hours of their lives . They are movers.

The immortals are from all genders , all cultures and all religions . What do they have common ? It is their love and their light . They light their own lamp and then they serve humanity by lighting the way for others . They healed and exorcised . They wrote and taught . They meditated and projected to the realms . The immortals are not from the quiet minders camp. So what the Taoist quiet minders think of Mantak Chia does not impress me either . I am impressed with those Taoist alchemists who have gone beyond the elementary stilling of the mind to bring forward that which will serve others .

And I challenge any detractors of Robert Bruce or Mantak Chia's work , to demonstrate their own research . It is so very easy to call names and ridicule . But actions speak louder. Instead let then show us thier love and their light .

What have such detractors done to make this world a better place ? What have they given in service to the world ? What metaphysical knowledge have they learned that is not from someone else's book ? It is much too easy to laugh at the work of another rather than do one's own work . We are all part of one universal mind , each of us can shine a light .

Previously , I had only met two detractors of Robert Bruce . I must consider the source . These were bullies posting nothing but negative one liners . They demonstrated no knowledge about metaphysics.They shared nothing that is kind ,uplifting and loving . Their words continue to be only harmful and their words serve only themselves to gain attention to themselves . These are bullies who make fun of any and all esoteric authors and researchers.

But you get that .

As for Mantak Chia , I am shocked to find so many who take pleasure in derision of this humble genius . His understandings are profound and cutting edge . He stands in his own truth . Unlike myself , he will not defend himself and I have not seen him engage in bitter acrimony . I admire his self restraint which I as yet do lack .

My work is not based upon the skeletal system nor on the bones . The mention of the joints on the thread cited above is only because there are minor energy centres on every joint of the human body which must also be cleansed . These chakras have been aptly described by Robert Bruce .

I have had in depth discussions with Robert Bruce regarding these joint chakras . I was most impressed with the drawings he commissioned in Astral Dynamics denoting the internal structure on the chakras of the smallest phalanges . He felt these with energy body awareness and described them for the artist . He is extremely clairsentient . I am blessed with deep clairvoyance and I have seen the internal structure by mapping the colours of energy within chakras. And I can tell you he has it right .

Until some one can show me what they saw and felt and learned from their own works that demonstrates a greater truth , their words confute nothing .

[upstream]

Thanks Aunt for sharing your thoughts. We agree on many things, like the problem of authentic knowledge and respect toward teachers (or rather the lack of it...which is kind of a trend on the internet). Iit's so easy to critize others work and making fun of Mantak Chia provides a never-ceasing delight for some, including me I have to admit.

I don't know him personally, just saw a couple of video of him and also read most of his books, and well, he looked a bit too stroppy for my liking. His books are fine tough. I've inconsistencies in his system, but I admit, it still it's better to have a system layed down then having not at all. The next time I read over his work I should take notes to provoke some conversation on different boards.

I learned many things from him tough and his recent books seem to be getting better and better. He gave up on that ridiculously straight concept on the microcosmic orbit, revised the front part of it and incorporated the hara line, all this in the proper order. It's a big step forwrad. Now the new fundation of the universal tao system is not the microcosmic orbit anymore but a new one called cosmic orbit.

Anyway, I tried to encapsulate my toughts on chakras in a few lines but it didn't worked out well. I couldn't touch even the half what I wanted to and looks like its gonna be left that way. But I decided to write something about these things still, becasue I promised so. And perhaps it might come in handy later on as a reference if I end up participating more on the forums. Good night to you all.

[upstream]

So what are chakras anyway? One thing is sure for me, the core aspect of chakras are layed down along the neuraxis between cortex and brainstem. They might represent different organisation levels of the animal brain, the way by which evolution / consciousness has worked its way up and through the organsim.

The most surprising feature of this system I came across was that the position of chakras within the brain appears to be upside down in relation to their external aspects (glands and nerve plexi in the body). Thus, for example, the neurobiological substrate of the crown chakra seems to be associated to the brainstem, perhaps even the spinal chord itself, or in a weird way, through the peripheral nerves, the entire body. On the other hand, the root chakra of the perineum appears to be a focal point of the entire cortex.

The mysterious 180 degree flip of the "astral body" that might happen before separation (feels like you were laying in the opposite direction in bed) must have someting to do with this topological feature.

I'm going to skip my hazy theory on the manyfolded feedback mechanism that augments the core and external aspects of chakras and instead focusing on kundalini. But since kundalini and the chakra system are intimately connected, kundalini too has an external (let's say, electric) and an internal (let's simplify it as neural) aspect, just like chakras themselves.

There are other components besides the body-electric and simple neural activation, which I don't really understand, and seem to belong to the feedback problem so they gonna be skipped, too. Similarly, the external aspect of chakras, and the way kundalini is supposed to work on the glandular and nerve plexus system, the modification of the cerebrospinal fluid, etc. are not a new concept nor it is important from the point of view I want to get across.

So lets begin with the external aspect of kundalini. :D

[upstream]

This post should not be new for those who are interested in energy work. Basically we can say that the external aspect of kundalini is feed on internal and external chi, prana, or whatever terminology you prefer. I'd say that the energy sources of the external aspect of kundalini are (1) atmospheric ions / "ground prana" accumulated by the lungs and tertiary energy system, (2) metabolic chi derived from food by the digestive system, and (3) the so called ching chi of the sexual organs (represent an external storage itself which gonna be wasted otherwise). All these pools can be mobilised and converted back to "metabolic chi" (bioplasm).

Chi is then compressed into the bones through the work of the secondary energy circuit. This circuit is made of low conductivity connective tissue layers and partly includes the twelve primary meridians (extraodinary meridians don't have a clear-cut trajectory like the ordinary meridians and their nature is very similar to the core aspects of chakras...more on that later, maybe). Therefore, bones basically act like transducers between the external plasm (chi, prana, etc.) and the neural system within (marrow) converting chi to electricity / voltage. Electricity is then conducted to the brain by the bones (vertebrae), cerebrospinal fluid and ganglion system.

The external aspect of kundalini flow simulataneously activates the root and crown chakra. The scull's bones are supposed to play an important part in focusing the elecrical current to specific parts of the cortex, especially to the temporal lobes. The bones above the temporal lobes may literally become charged like a condensator and stimulates the cortex beneath. The position of temporal lobes in relation to scull anatomy and their well known role in the maintenance of cortical homeostasis suggests that the temporal lobes are key regulators of the entire kundalini process.

There is a growing body of evidence implying the navel region as the body's main interface for the temporal lobes and underlying lymbic structures (with intact but crossed laterality). I come to this conclusion by comparing the symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy and kundalini psychosis with my own kundalini charged, early OBE practice. This is where the phenomenology of Kundalini and OBEs converge the most.

In fact, within the temporal lobes there are many trigger-happy neural oscillators working in the theta range that might become further stimulated by the external aspect of kundalini. This results in a shift of EEG power and reconfiguration of cortical functioning that favors all kind of twilight experiences.

This shift also involves the somatosensory and auditory areas of the cortex, just like in sleep, which can explain the sensation of vibrations and hars noises that often accompany the rising kundalini. The charged temporal lobes literally start to hum from activity and a great pressure is felt.

Let's continue with the root chakra. The root chakra at the perineum is basically the projection of the somatosensory cortex's main focalpoint (including the corpus callosum that connects the two hemispheres). The sacrum bone is apparently part of the root complex, and acts as the center of the entire skeleton system in respect to the above described chi to electric flow (or plasm to voltage) transformation. Thus, the sensations that people usually believe to be the result of "crown chakra and 3rd eye activation" belong entirely to the root chakra complex and due to increased activity of the cortex.

The crown chakra seems to get activated at the same time partly by the direct link that exists between the crown chakra and the solar plexus (the navel chakra's external aspect). Besides the cerebrospinal fluid and spinal nerve, the main candidate of this direct link could be the nervus vagus, which also provides a connection to the strategically placed brain center at the middle of the head (more on that later). This circuit is also related to the completion of the microcosmic orbit's frontal part.

I will now continue on with the internal aspect of kundalini, implosion of consciousness, bindu points and the emergence of omkar reality, probably touching the extraordinary meridians, too.

[upstream]

The internal mechanism of kundalini activation is triggered when the external component of the external flow charges the middle of the head center. This process is regulated by the temporal lobes and underlying lymbic structures.

The internal aspect of kundalini is basically a top-down neural process along the neuraxis between the pineal gland and brainstem (and to the external component of the chakras through the spinal nerve, including the important feedback to the solar plexus). We can say, that the central channel of the taoist yoga / nei-gung is the projection of the brain's neuraxis onto the internally perceived body image.

During full kundalini rising and kundalini related OBEs, a temporal lobe driven cortical deactivation is supposed to happen. As a result, brain activity related to conscious functioning retracts into the middle of the head, leaving the cortex in a state similar to non-REM sleep. This is the same as saying that the focal point of consciousness enters the central channel of consciousness (identical with the chakra system) through the bindu leading to the emegence of omkar reality (see Aunt Clair's definition in this thread).

The pineal gland, the thalamus and the third ventricle's standing photon field, that modulates the work of the thalamus and the pineal gland, are the three most important brain structures, that without doubt, are involved in this mysterious process I call implosion, and in the support of brain bounded consciousness in general. They all together make up the middle of head center I call head bindu.

The head bindu is a projection itself, too, the in-brain projection of the original bindu through which consciousness has been broken out into physical reality. The original bindu has other projections besides the head bindu. It also manifest at the middle of the two other main cavities, chest and pelvis. I call these points thokar and kanda, maybe not quit correctly, to remember the traditions I came from.

[upstream]

I regularly use the thokar to project and a couple of occasions I've been able to feel the kanda too before "etheric separations." It was like an egg with various vein like channels originating from it. It was quite a surprise the first time as I was looking for my one-eyed captain.

I find it interesting that some traditions place the kanda above the perineum, while others think its actually below that. I think the actual position depends on the state of one's perceiving consciousness, similarly to the case of the crown chakra. In the heavy etheric pre-OBE state I was able to perceive it, my kanda was superimposed to the lower dantien.

Energy rising through the legs has been my favorite method to pinpoint and lock my awareness on the kanda and this might be the reason why I believed for years its actually the lower dantien. However, the position inconsistency of this organ, indicates that we are dealing with a projected brain structure that should be in the closure of to the cortex.

Besides this, both taoist and hindu anatomy agree on that the lateral channels unite here. I have other evidences that make me pretty certain that the kanda is the projection of the pineal gland.

The activity within the ida and pingala nadis (lateral channels in daoist anatomy) represent the coverging pathways of the two hemispheres. As a prerequisite to implosion and kundalini rising these activities must be balanced. The regular practice of nadi sodhana pranayama combined with the intention of breathing through the legs (hemispheres) into the kanda (not the lower dantien) is a good exercise for that.

I think the cauldron of the lower elixir field where the alchemical transformation occurs is formed by the lower dantien (basically the small intestine's microvilly membrane system) that works like a battery, and the kanda that provides the entrance to the inner space.

In fact, the kanda represents the preferred spot to enter the "etheric body" via the classic OBE route. It acts like a switch for paralysis and helps to focus on and increase body vibrations. It's basically the same gateway for the internally felt body (somatosensory fantom) that thokar is for the auditory system.

The thokar at the middle of the chest seems also to have the ability to induce paralysis and vibrations, but for some reason, it better suits for those who prefers to listen for the inner sounds (nada). I think its primary projection of the thalamus (which appears to be identical with the heart chakra, and probably the middle dantien). Having your attention absorbed in "anahata nada" at the thokar can easily lead to OBEs that unite the symptomps of kanda and bindu based projections.

The head bindu is for the visually inclined. I think it's the same as the upper dantien. Also see my first post in this thread where I mentioned Monroe's OBE method, which I think of as the prototype of visual conceptualisations aiming to trigger the implosion at the head bindu. ItPeterson modified the original exercise and use a pair of repulsing lines in order to first synchronize the lateral channels' activity then to activate the pineal gland and trigger implosion by shifting the lines' crossing point upwards. Not downwards as might be expected based on the position of the chakras' core aspects but upwards due to the 180 degree of internal flip (inversion) of body image I mentioned previously.

[upstream]

As you can see the source of kundalini energy is ultimately the Sun, and Kundalini is a shortuct in our evolution process. Kundalini rising appears to be the last stage in our development as bicameral brain based consciousnesses. Kundalini then continues to power the multibrained superconsciousnesses we gonna be after the integration of self has been concluded on a new level. The new self is already in potential existence, transcends the physical universe yet grounded in it by many physical bodies that live in different time periods. It's unified by the upper internal / informal aspect of kundalini that channels information between human personality and its personal God, the future Self.

As I tried to show, the internal process of kundalini goes hand in hand with its external aspect due to its close association with the chakras' core aspects. But it goes along without the external aspect as well. The external aspect just empowers the internal process and render it conscious. Chakras as such are never inactive at the fist place, we just become aware of them as a result of implosion.

Powered by the external aspect and metabolic energy, the core components of chakras are realised in the central nervous system as an inverted mirror image of their peripheral components. Thus, the internal process mirrors the external flow and projects on the body. It starts from the hemispheres (legs), activates the pineal gland (kanda) then goes to the crown (a point above the head).

After the internal and external circuit has been closed in the bindu the perception of being surrounded by a cocoon-like bubble emerges (the flow turns downwards like a fountain and reenters the legs). This toroidal toplogy is the ultimate symbol of our true nature. It has its own reason and purpose that manifests at many levels of the brain anatomy but I think its enough of this topic for today. :D

[Korpo]

Hello, Aunt Clair.

I just wondered about your comments on "stillness of the quiet mind".

From my understanding being capable of moving to a neutral state of mind and staying there is a prerequisite skill for many other more delicate methods.

But I think you meant people who think this is the end, and not a tool, right?

To me both Robert Bruce and Mantak Chia have done laudable things, but they are but one side of the medal, and I would personally call them the "Yang" side. Not as persons, but their methods. Robert's techniques in stilling the mind or on doing energy work for example seem rather "forceful" to me. Not compared to a general average, so I will explain what I mean.

I personally follow a set of techniques from another school of Taoism that is very different from Mantak Chia's. I cannot comment on their Internal Alchemy because this knowledge will be developed after reaching an enlightenment equivalent called the "Great Stillness".

The basic and intermediate practices, which integrate Qigong, meditation, Taiji and other movement/martial arts all hold the same goal - freeing all energy bodies from blockages in order to settle into the original personality which is no longer following preprogrammed or trauma-induced patterns that were released. Stillness of mind is for example not reached by willing it to be so with utmost determination, but by relaxing the causes that prevent that stillness and settling back into awareness. "Relaxing Into Being" is the title of the meditation manual written by Bruce Kumar Frantzis, and I think it is a more "Yin" equivalent to what Robert and Mantak Chia do, but it is an equivalent.

Depending on our needs and where we come from these initial steps differ. Different roads lead to where we can attain, stabilise and live from that point we cannot be leveraged away by external forces or emotions, and perceive energies freely and therefore can start to master them.

I have sampled Mantak Chia's initial and intermediate practices and have found them too quickly advancing for many persons to safely handle. But if you are the matching type of person these methods will be helpful, I am sure, because I know they have strong effects.

Robert's techniques are pretty good as well, and more neutral as well, but my personal tastes, abilities and weaknesses have taken me into another direction, which only through the comparison with Chia and Robert I have found to be worthwhile for myself.

Oliver

[Aunt Clair]

Iit's so easy to critize others work and making fun of Mantak Chia provides a never-ceasing delight for some, including me I have to admit. That others do it too , has never been an excuse for impolite and improper behaviour which is an act of non love towards another .
he looked a bit too stroppy for my liking.
http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Interviews/larth42.jpg
"stroppy adj. Chiefly British. , -pier , -piest . Easily offended or annoyed; ill-tempered or belligerent"
http://www.tao-garden.com/images_v1/mantak_chia/mc2.jpg
In any case , I feel he looks compassionate and intelligent in these images . And he was kind enough to write me back . I have written to many metaphysical experts and I did not hear back from most of them . He took the time to answer my questions and confirm my own observations and I find that very humane and gentile . Nor do I believe that the worth of a book or a human can be judged by their overt appearance .
The next time I read over his work I should take notes to provoke some conversation on different boards.One would hope that his many detractors might have already substantiated what they find so discrediting about him and why they feel he should suffer such slings . Sadly , I only read rumours that serve to discredit the gossip monger peanut gallery and not the man . It is easy to feed that machine of illwill and harder to find an excuse to contribute to it.

He gave up on that ridiculously straight concept on the microcosmic orbit, revised the front part of it and incorporated the hara line, all this in the proper order. It's a big step forwrad. Now the new fundation of the universal tao system is not the microcosmic orbit anymore but a new one called cosmic orbit.

At the heart of the microcosmic orbit is an eternal truth which is anciently known . All of the macrocosm exists in the heart of any human . The heart is the pump of the human energy body and must be stimulated and cleansed to facilitate any further growth or clairient development would not otherwise be possible .

I suggest that Mantak Chia has not discarded something "ridiculous "but that he has developed a more sophisticated exercise suitable for a more advanced development . I have been given many energy exercises in meditation . The ones I learn are suitable to that stage and may become obsolete and redundant as the light quotient of the energy body continues to build up .

As I begin to read these 5 posts I wonder is this your "works" ? By that I mean have you extrapolated this information from reading a variety of texts and now regurgitate it here or is it authentic alchemical works ?

Authentic works can be replicated metaphysically ;

*Have you seen these structures clairvoyantly and may I and others see them clairvoyantly to and so confirm your works ?

*Likewise , can you feel this flow and feel these energy structures and may I and others feel them and find them to be as you say ?

* Have you heard this information in meditative trance from immortal teachers and if so from whom , that I might evoke them and hear the same lesson clairaudiently ?

* Have you witnessed these structures in readings that I might be able to replicate ?

* And will these works benefit humanity substantively . That is . are they practical in nature ? Can I take away from my reading of your works a practice by which I could improve my energy intake , its flow and its retention and by this develop my energy body further . Could I take from your works something tangible to share with my peers ?

* Or is it merely a descriptive text discovered by eclectic consumption of the esoteric works of ancient sages which was once derived in their own mystic visions ?

* Does it lack originality ?

* What is the source ?

This is the proof to me of good works that they will serve humanity now and in the immediate if not eternal future . Otherwise they are merely descriptive conjectures .

What the thirsty man wants to know is that the tree will provide shade and respite from the sun and that its apple will satiate his thirst . He does not care that the leaves of the tree bare chlorophyll .

What the metaphysical student requires is practical information that when acted upon will facilitate safe and effective development of the energy body .


Thus, for example, the neurobiological substrate of the crown chakra seems to be associated to the brainstem, perhaps even the spinal chord itself, or in a weird way, through the peripheral nerves, the entire body. But of course the crown chakra affects the brain , the brainstem and the spinal cord . This is historically known and has been suggested in Sanskrit works over five thousand years ago . Have you read the Upanishads , Vedas and Tantras ? The chakras are first illucidated upon therein and they were certainly imaged on the spine and the main gates were known to be the crown and root chakras .

On the other hand, the root chakra of the perineum appears to be a focal point of the entire cortex.
As above so below . These are reciprocal in nature but not so dissimilar

This post should not be new for those who are interested in energy work. Basically we can say that the external aspect of kundalini is feed on internal and external chi, prana, or whatever terminology you prefer. I'd say that the energy sources of the external aspect of kundalini are (1) atmospheric ions / "ground prana" accumulated by the lungs and tertiary energy system, (2) metabolic chi derived from food by the digestive system, and (3) the so called ching chi of the sexual organs (represent an external storage itself which gonna be wasted otherwise). All these pools can be mobilised and converted back to "metabolic chi" (bioplasm). I fundamentally disagree. The main gates to the energy body are at the alpha and omega apertures each flowing into the two primary kandas which occur at either end of the spinal chakral column on the crown and at the perineum respectively . All kundalini begins to activate here as the prana enters ripened pathways which have become ready to recieve her . She moves through these 2 major pathways to the chakras , stones and the spine . It is not particular to the lungs or stomach .

It does not need to be processed in lungs or stomach to become activated . It is stored and cured in the stones certainly but these are more accurately the head , the chest and the pelvis .

The organs of the physical body that most affect the manifestation of kundalini are the brain , heart and lungs. The stomach and intestines are not primary organs of kundalini manifestation and remain unimportant . They are, in fact, a dirty abyss which must be crossed to convey energy from the groin to the heart which is the reason for the maha bandah lock's effectiveness .

And the majesty of the energy centres is improved through energy exercises , healing ,meditation , projections and service to humanity .As the stone is cured so is the kundalini manifest from prana .

Chi is then compressed into the bones through the work of the secondary energy circuit. This circuit is made of low conductivity connective tissue layers and partly includes the twelve primary meridians (extraodinary meridians don't have a clear-cut trajectory like the ordinary meridians and their nature is very similar to the core aspects of chakras...more on that later, maybe). Therefore, bones basically act like transducers between the external plasm (chi, prana, etc.) and the neural system within (marrow) converting chi to electricity / voltage. Electricity is then conducted to the brain by the bones (vertebrae), cerebrospinal fluid and ganglion system.
I do not find the bones to be so "hollow" as to allow such primary flow nor do I believe them to be the primary conduit of the energy flow . I do not subscribe to bone breathing . I do find the limbs are important but secondary to the spine and consequently developing after the chakras are filled and the stones are cured .

The skeletal system is a framework of support for the physical body . The energy meridians are not in the deep marrow of the bony fibers . The meridians are much more nebulous and can be seen to run through organs and bones without constraint .

The meridians take their own pathway and if they are anchored in any physical body system it is in the central nervous and circulatory system and not in the skeletal or muscular systems . This can be seen in clairvoyant readings .Arguably energy enters every cell of the human physical body but I do not see bone and intestines as fundamental nor crucial .

Each joint does have a chakra though . And energy centres will manifest in time between each pair of adjacent joints on the limbs ie in the middle of the forearms and the middle of the calves . But is it the nature of the bone or the nature of the bend allowed by the joint ? That is are the joints energy centres because the energy must flow around the bend of the limbs where they flex and extend or is it inate to the bone ?

Certainly energy centres occur in the internal organs and energy passes into them without flowing through a bone . It is illogical to presume that bone is necessary to pass energy or that it is the prime mover of energy .
Although every part of the physical body will pass energy .

The bone is not the straw through which all energy moves . There may be miniscule conduits therein but the major flow can be clairvoyantly seen running through and around the arm as if the muscles and bones did not even exist . These channels are straight and true and not constrained by muscle attachments , bony structure or connectivity . They occur in the absence of bones and can be seen to flow in amputees .

So I feel that the energy body is around and through the physical body but not constrained by it . And it exists in the absence of it . A woman with a total hysterectomy is seen to have energy gonads still . A man without a leg is seen to have two healthy energy body legs still .

The external aspect of kundalini flow simulataneously activates the root and crown chakra. I agree .

The scull's bones are supposed to play an important part in focusing the elecrical current to specific parts of the cortex, especially to the temporal lobes. The bones above the temporal lobes may literally become charged like a condensator and stimulates the cortex beneath. The position of temporal lobes in relation to scull anatomy and their well known role in the maintenance of cortical homeostasis suggests that the temporal lobes are key regulators of the entire kundalini process.
I feel nothing in my skull when I deep cleanse or power up. I feel nothing in my skull when kundalini is active . At the base of the skull I feel such effects but that is not related to bony mass , it is the central nervous system . This does not ring true for me but since it remains to be seen I will try to maintain an open mind .


There is a growing body of evidence implying the navel region as the body's main interface for the temporal lobes and underlying lymbic structures (with intact but crossed laterality).
I see kundalini coming into the alpha , omega apertures primarily . Later it enters into the heart . Much later into the feet and currently the palms are curing to manifest its flow . Kundalini has entered through the heart at the core of the sunstone . I expect that it will come to the core of each stone and that it will be expected then to enter the navel which is the core of the Earth Stone .
I come to this conclusion by comparing the symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy and kundalini psychosis with my own kundalini charged, early OBE practice. This is where the phenomenology of Kundalini and OBEs converge the most.
Please elaborate on this , thank you .

In fact, within the temporal lobes there are many trigger-happy neural oscillators working in the theta range that might become further stimulated by the external aspect of kundalini. This results in a shift of EEG power and reconfiguration of cortical functioning that favors all kind of twilight experiences.
I agree with you here and find these sort of clinical results and near confirmations fascinating . I love to see where medical science can testify to metaphysical development . I would like to read lab based results to quantify and qualify energies and their flow through the physical body as related to the energy body and its awareness and development . I would be very interested in any links to and discussions of articles of this nature .
This shift also involves the somatosensory and auditory areas of the cortex, just like in sleep, which can explain the sensation of vibrations and hars noises that often accompany the rising kundalini. The charged temporal lobes literally start to hum from activity and a great pressure is felt. I did not know that , this seems plausible . I thank you for sharing that information .
Let's continue with the root chakra. The root chakra at the perineum is basically the projection of the somatosensory cortex's main focalpoint (including the corpus callosum that connects the two hemispheres). The sacrum bone is apparently part of the root complex, and acts as the center of the entire skeleton system in respect to the above described chi to electric flow (or plasm to voltage) transformation.That does not make sense at all . I found some of this text self evident , some historically known , some controversial contemporary theories already heard and just a bit unknown to me as yet but plausible .This bit though is not possible . All of the body is connected and related in function , I can accept that broadly . But to say this;

Thus, the sensations that people usually believe to be the result of "crown chakra and 3rd eye activation" belong entirely to the root chakra complex and due to increased activity of the cortex.
...is not credible . Are you clairvoyant . Have you developed your brow centre to hear and see spirit ? Can you see energy and view the energy body structures ? Have you projected to the realms and heard the immortals lessons there ? If not what basis do you have to promulgate such a preposterous notion ?

The crown chakra seems to get activated at the same time partly by the direct link that exists between the crown chakra and the solar plexus (the navel chakra's external aspect). Besides the cerebrospinal fluid and spinal nerve, the main candidate of this direct link could be the nervus vagus, which also provides a connection to the strategically placed brain center at the middle of the head (more on that later). This circuit is also related to the completion of the microcosmic orbit's frontal part. Let me assure you that you are labouring under a misconception in this area . I study the energy body in readings of diverse sitters . There exists a condition I call purple trees . Some young virgin men born after 1980 will have well developed energy bodies from the heart upwards . So that their moon stone , sun stone and their arms are entirely purple at birth . Their earth stone is black cold dark and empty and the energy running down their legs is nearly invisible so that they look like a thin stream on a trunk supporting a heavy system of branches above the heart . After these men mature sexually and begin their pathworking their earth stone and legs become sapphire for a time . Soon the entire energy body becomes sapphire blue . Until they have cured the Earth Stone they will not colour up the legs . But they will exhibiti extraordinary clairvoyance beyond that which has been developed by the sleepy indigo generation . I have met many of this syndrome . They can bi locate , project at will , remote view , ping , link , clairvoyantly see immortals , project to the realms and do this intuitively .

There is another group which I call "red legs" . These tend to be males of the WW generation born before 1948 . Red legs are negative in nature , they are aggro people who have a violent past . They have often been sexually abused as children . I feel they exist in smaller percentages of the population then purple trees not purely by their age group but because they are damaged . These people have no clairsentient abilities . They are "unawares" without a metaphysical bone in their body . They are riddled with blockages . But they can be helped by cutting the cords , shaktipat , parallel energy raising , alchemical contagion , healing them at the crown and causing energy to flow down the spine etc .

Most people I read today have 7 chakras activated . All humans have the potential to fill the stones and release kundalini . But those with darkened blocked moonstones are not clairient . And those with darkened blocked earth stones are not able to separate an astral body at will .

I am clairvoyant . I enter meditative trance daily . I see energy and feel energy . I know the paths it takes through my body . I can say that there is truth in that one stone activated at will causes the others to be stimulated . But I will not accept "sensations that people usually believe to be the result of "crown chakra and 3rd eye activation" belong entirely to the root chakra complex"

The internal mechanism of kundalini activation is triggered when the external component of the external flow charges the middle of the head center. This process is regulated by the temporal lobes and underlying lymbic structures. Agreed.

The internal aspect of kundalini is basically a top-down neural process along the neuraxis between the pineal gland and brainstem I fundamentally disagree . The brain and pineal gland are essential to perceive the effects of kundalini but it is not solely a top down process . "As above , so below ". As within , so with "out". As on the right , so on the left .

The energy body is reciprocal and symmetrical in nature . Kundalini rises on the first flame . It falls on the second flame . On the third flame it moves from bottom to top and back again in a loop . Sometime after the first 14 nadis have coloured up and become majestic with light , the energy body will cause kundalini to be rent from prana and thrust into the heart through the core of the sun stone . Kundalini begins to manifest at the Earth Stone followed by manifestations at the Moon Stone , Sun Stone and Heaven Stone respectively . Currently the limbs are being prepared for kundalini in my peers .

and to the external component of the chakras through the spinal nerve, including the important feedback to the solar plexus). We can say, that the central channel of the taoist yoga / nei-gung is the projection of the brain's neuraxis onto the internally perceived body image.During full kundalini rising and kundalini related OBEs, a temporal lobe driven cortical deactivation is supposed to happen.

As a result, brain activity related to conscious functioning retracts into the middle of the head, leaving the cortex in a state similar to non-REM sleep. This is the same as saying that the focal point of consciousness enters the central channel of consciousness (identical with the chakra system) through the bindu leading to the emegence of omkar reality (see Aunt Clair's definition in this thread).
This sounds plausible but as discussed above I do not believe I have had "omkar reality " and I am confident that I and my peers have had multiple flames . Perhaps it is semantics . What do you suppose the "omkar reality " is ?

The pineal gland, the thalamus and the third ventricle's standing photon field, that modulates the work of the thalamus and the pineal gland, are the three most important brain structures, that without doubt, are involved in this mysterious process I call implosion, and in the support of brain bounded consciousness in general. They all together make up the middle of head center I call head bindu.

The head bindu is a projection itself, too, the in-brain projection of the original bindu through which consciousness has been broken out into physical reality. The original bindu has other projections besides the head bindu. It also manifest at the middle of the two other main cavities, chest and pelvis. This rings true . I would like to read more on this .

I call these points thokar and kanda, maybe not quit correctly, to remember the traditions I came from.

I see various metaphysicists refer to the crown or the perineum as "the" kanda . I see them as reciprocal kandas . In meditation we were taught the seat is the Throne of God and the scalp is the Crown of the Goddess .
We saw nadis build up like a fountain from the throne and later cascade down like a chandelier from the crown . When they meet in the heart , this begins to cure the Sunstone .

Please define and link me to a sanskrit meaning of the name "Thokar ".


Kanda - the seat of the Kundalini Shakti in the Subconscious mind. This center appears like a fiery sun within a triangle. A spiral of three and one half turns connects with it from below.http://www.mudrashram.com/glossarypage.html


I regularly use the thokar to project and a couple of occasions I've been able to feel the kanda too before "etheric separations." It was like an egg with various vein like channels originating from it. It was quite a surprise the first time as I was looking for my one-eyed captain. Each cured stone affords a different aspect of consciousness and the projection of it . From the SunStone comes a yellow white form called united Guardian Angel /Higher Self having the face of the magician and in prime health . From the moon stone comes the Higher Self . From the Purple Stone comes the universal mind connection . From the Green Heavens Stone comes the Guardian Angel . From the red Earth stone comes the Guardian Demon self . The amber stone manifests the lower self . I have not cured other stones sufficiently for projection yet .

I find it interesting that some traditions place the kanda above the perineum, while others think its actually below that. I think the actual position depends on the state of one's perceiving consciousness, similarly to the case of the crown chakra. In the heavy etheric pre-OBE state I was able to perceive it, my kanda was superimposed to the lower dantien. Fascinating, isn't it ? I agree here completely . I believe that the black table lowers as the energy body builds up its light quotient . It was first percieved above the Earth Stone then gradually subsided until we saw the magicians standing upon it . This becomes the mirror beneath which manifests the golden heart of the mystic .

As this table descends , the kanda of the earth stone seems to shift and more realms become attainable by the magician . Jackie Lindsay, a metaphyiscal author suggests that these are negative chakras closing down . The black table appears to be a barrier to prevent the lower self and guardian demon from controlling the magician . If it rises towards the heart and mind , there is trouble . Negativity and self destruction is evident and the Dark Watcher will manifest from within to destroy the magician .

Energy rising through the legs has been my favorite method to pinpoint and lock my awareness on the kanda and this might be the reason why I believed for years its actually the lower dantien. However, the position inconsistency of this organ, indicates that we are dealing with a projected brain structure that should be in the closure of to the cortex.
There are stones beneath the Earth Stone and I agree with you here . There is an energy centre at the mid thighs , knees , mid calves , and on the mirror . The energy centre at the mirror is black and gold . It is reciprocal to the white /silver stone above the Green Heavens Stone .

These dual polarity stones look like yin yang symbols . The swirling hemispheres allow the polarity to be reversed in the energy body .
For example while the golden heart is pointing upwards towards the magician energy flows from crown thru the mirror to the golden bowl of the hanged man beneath the mirror .

When the black portion points upward the flow is cut off . When these reciprocals stones are turned in one manner the cosmic stones are connected like a necklace or ouroborous but when turned the other way they are like a vertical stack in the human as a linear chain of energy .


Besides this, both taoist and hindu anatomy agree on that the lateral channels unite here. I have other evidences that make me pretty certain that the kanda is the projection of the pineal gland.

The activity within the ida and pingala nadis (lateral channels in daoist anatomy) represent the coverging pathways of the two hemispheres. As a prerequisite to implosion and kundalini rising these activities must be balanced. The regular practice of nadi sodhana pranayama combined with the intention of breathing through the legs (hemispheres) into the kanda (not the lower dantien) is a good exercise for that.

I think the cauldron of the lower elixir field where the alchemical transformation occurs is formed by the lower dantien (basically the small intestine's microvilly membrane system) that works like a battery, and the kanda that provides the entrance to the inner space.

In fact, the kanda represents the preferred spot to enter the "etheric body" via the classic OBE route. It acts like a switch for paralysis and helps to focus on and increase body vibrations. It's basically the same gateway for the internally felt body (somatosensory fantom) that thokar is for the auditory system.

The thokar at the middle of the chest seems also to have the ability to induce paralysis and vibrations, but for some reason, it better suits for those who prefers to listen for the inner sounds (nada). I think its primary projection of the thalamus (which appears to be identical with the heart chakra, and probably the middle dantien). Having your attention absorbed in "anahata nada" at the thokar can easily lead to OBEs that unite the symptomps of kanda and bindu based projections.

The head bindu is for the visually inclined. I think it's the same as the upper dantien. Also see my first post in this thread where I mentioned Monroe's OBE method, which I think of as the prototype of visual conceptualisations aiming to trigger the implosion at the head bindu.

ItPeterson modified the original exercise and use a pair of repulsing lines in order to first synchronize the lateral channels' activity then to activate the pineal gland and trigger implosion by shifting the lines' crossing point upwards. Not downwards as might be expected based on the position of the chakras' core aspects but upwards due to the 180 degree of internal flip (inversion) of body image I mentioned previously.
Is this your work ? I like this . It is a new approach for me and it seems very credible .

As you can see the source of kundalini energy is ultimately the Sun, and Kundalini is a shortuct in our evolution process. Kundalini rising appears to be the last stage in our development as bicameral brain based consciousnesses.

Kundalini then continues to power the multibrained superconsciousnesses we gonna be after the integration of self has been concluded on a new level. The new self is already in potential existence, transcends the physical universe yet grounded in it by many physical bodies that live in different time periods. It's unified by the upper internal / informal aspect of kundalini that channels information between human personality and its personal God, the future Self.

As I tried to show, the internal process of kundalini goes hand in hand with its external aspect due to its close association with the chakras' core aspects. But it goes along without the external aspect as well. The external aspect just empowers the internal process and render it conscious.
Chakras as such are never inactive at the fist place, we just become aware of them as a result of implosion.
I agree somewhat . I believe that all of the centres are present at birth and that when we say manifest we mean that we have become conscious of them . I have met a few humans who do not have fully active chakras . I feel that usually the blockages percieved are not as profound as expected . The centres remain fully coloured anyway . Also I do believe that chakras cannot close down or open up except at birth and death . I think a better model is to tune in or switch on as to enter trance .

Powered by the external aspect and metabolic energy, the core components of chakras are realised in the central nervous system as an inverted mirror image of their peripheral components. Thus, the internal process mirrors the external flow and projects on the body. It starts from the hemispheres (legs), activates the pineal gland (kanda) then goes to the crown (a point above the head).

Although there is a crown above the head this is Kether not manifest on most people . The crown I speak of is on the scalp . The scalp is the violet chakra . Then silver and white chakras manifest above this that seed the space beneath the alpha aperture to manifest the white/silver stone . I do not believe that all humans flow from feet to crown . I think that the magician must be able to control the flow at will to go in either direction but that males tend to open initially bottom to top and the females open in the reverse direction . I feel that some younger magicians begin life fully open crown to foot . And the genders are not as dichotomised in younger generations .

After the internal and external circuit has been closed in the bindu the perception of being surrounded by a cocoon-like bubble emerges (the flow turns downwards like a fountain and reenters the legs). This toroidal toplogy is the ultimate symbol of our true nature. It has its own reason and purpose that manifests at many levels of the brain anatomy but I think its enough of this topic for today. :D
I percieve a loop of energy as you do but I do not believe it occurs in all humans the same way as explained above .

I thank you upstream for your discourse .It has been intriguing and valuable .

[Korpo]

Hello, Aunt Clair.

Why did you quote my post - you did not comment on it? ;)

See you,
Oliver

[Aunt Clair]

Why did you quote my post - you did not comment on it?
Hi , Oliver . My post had been under construction at the time . I split it now though because it was too long . Do you and Upstream practice the same theoretical Taoist techniques then ? I thought otherwise . I thought you were eclectic in your approach and that you were a fan of Robert Bruce's works . Am I wrong ?


....your comments on "stillness of the quiet mind". I think you meant people who think this is the end, and not a tool, right?
Exactly, stillness of the mind is merely the prerequisite and not a method to achieve immortality and/or enlightenment as so many espouse .

Stillness of mind is for example not reached by willing it to be so with utmost determination,
Says who ? First I am sure that it can be achieved by will and determination . Secondly I have been taught a variety of techniques by many teachers with diverse backgrounds ;
* Hare Krishna Mantras
* Buddhist Lotus with mudras
* Buddhist Ohms
* Tibetan Bowl w/ Great Aumm
* Buddhist Mantras
* Hindu Meditation upon Chakras
* Catholic Rosary
* Catholic Catechist guided meditations
* Catholic Mysticism
* Native American Chant & Drum Meditation
* Celtic Boddhran Chant
* Hindu Mantras
* Prayer beads
* New Age White Light Meditation
* Reiki Standing Healing Progressive Meditation
* Clairvoyant Healing Meditative Trance
* SPiritual Church Open Circle Guided Meditation
* Spiritual Church Closed Circle Mediumship Development
* Alchemy Circle Mysticism
* Kaballah Sepiroth Projection Meditation

Each teacher expected that within a few lessons we would be able to achieve the stillness or peace . I did sit in one class where it took some slower people a cycle of 12 lessons before they could see anything but that was the exception . I cannot fathom how it could take lifetimes to learn what ordinary folk learn in a few lessons. I have been meditating for 35 years in a variety of classes and I cannot buy into that theory .

but by relaxing the causes that prevent that stillness and settling back into awareness. "Relaxing Into Being" is the title of the meditation manual written by Bruce Kumar Frantzis, and I think it is a more "Yin" equivalent to what Robert and Mantak Chia do, but it is an equivalent.
I suggest Robert Bruce's and Mantak Chia's methods are active and practical. I feel that stillness of the mind and the "anti Mantak Chia" camp espouse a passive and impractical method which has not yet proven any results to me personally . I do not see Robert Bruce's Energy Body Development & Hermetic Magick as the other side of the coin . Because that would presume that both methods are effective . It is more like 5th gear and neutral .

I find both of these metaphysicists safe, practical and expert . But I don't find them the same as each other or as my own approach .

Robert Bruce has expressed that he is not a kaballahist or alchemist . He is a Hermetic Magician , a mystic and expert at energy body development . He is expert at exorcism , protection , healing and projection . He is a pioneer in metaphysics .

Mantak Chia is a Taoist Alchemist I enjoy them both but I am not certain there are many parallels to their approaches. Although I agee they are
both pragmatic , practical , and effective .

=============================================

Robert does still the mind effectively and his techniques work with newbies . He has been invited back to teach internationally and he enjoys an excellent reputation .

I do not see Mantak Chia's Taoist Alchemy as forceful either .He could not have achieved such an international reputation without results . He could not have the understanding to answer questions at the cutting edge if he was not there himself .

I see the techniques of these two authors as immediately effective versus potentially possible .

Perhaps we can stare at our navels and achieve a stillness of mind over many lifetimes and that is more safe and less forceful . But it seems lame to me .

Why contemplate the stillness when you can see the realms and hear the immortals ?

Why "relax into being "when you can heal your body and heal others in this lifetime ?

Why be afraid of your own energy body when you can learn to develop yours protect it and help others to develop and protect theirs .

Surely it is safer to sit on the sidelines passively but has it ever made an athlete out of a couch potato , yet ?

Sure you can raise one flame at 40 and wait to raise the rest until next lifetime but have any of such armchair magicians learned to see or fly ?


I have sampled Mantak Chia's initial and intermediate practices and have found them too quickly advancing for many persons to safely handle.
But if you are the matching type of person these methods will be helpful, I am sure, because I know they have strong effects Please cite what practices you have sampled . Can you provide links and or titles please ?

I do not buy into the "kundalini rises one flame , wait until your 40 , it is dangerous" phobia .I have not read all of Mantak Chia's works but what I have read is profound . His understanding of the development of the human energy body is expert . I have no knowledge of any of his practices being unsafe .

.Robert's techniques are pretty good as well, and more neutral as well,
But I find Robert Bruce to be more cautious than I am . And I have read all of his books and I have practiced and recommended his techniques . I find his methods very safe and also very effective .

What do you think is "forceful" and "unsafe" in the approach of these two experts ? Have you tried the NEW tutorials ? I have never heard anyone allege these are forceful or unsafe . Or did you mean another technique ?


...but my personal tastes, abilities and weaknesses have taken me into another direction, which only through the comparison with Chia and Robert I have found to be worthwhile for myself.
But more importantly is your branch of alchemy providing any tangible results ?

Does it work for you ? Does your energy body look like Robert Bruce's ?

Have you manifested the Heaven Stone above the crown like Mantak Chia ?

Can you see clairvoyantly ? Have you projected to the realms ? Have you had lessons with the immortals ?

What successes have you had with your own more passive and more safe approach to Taoist Alchemy ?

[Korpo]

First of all I do not think people start out with alchemy. It comes after a fair deal of work. Mantak Chia does it early on, and that did not work fine with me.

Mantak Chia has written dozens of works without even going into any detail about stilling the mind, BTW. He also has recommended techniques that are not for anyone - this includes Sexual Qigong and the higher levels of Bone Marrow Nei Gong. I think he misrepresents or omits the risk/benefit relationship too much for my own liking. I had to painstakingly research in other literature to know what went wrong with my practise, where Chia was imprecise or lacking information. While the techniques are there and can be highly beneficial, the way they are provided is not what I think of as optimum. If you teach the extraordinary to ordinary people, you have to go to extraordinary lengths to warn and inform people.

My energy body is coming along quite fine - I am starting to unblock, to notice my mind's workings, starting to come into my personal comfort zone of work. It simply works for me in a comfortable way, and it is the thing my Higher Self is most aligned with, not Chia, not even Robert come close, while I respect them very much. Not because they are worse I do not practise them, but for a different kind of person at a different stage. I'm aligning myself with what matches me.

I am not eclectic - I am a serial monogamist. I tried techniques earnestly and with effort, and stuck with the one that felt innermost most right for me.

Respect does not mean total acceptance to me. I also take in Robert's and Mantak's information and use them in the best way possible. And I will not prevent anyone finding their true joy with these things.

It sounds very much like you think a certain tradition is superior to another in these latest posts, which I do not think. This may be out of defensiveness of two teachers you highly respect. I also think it is absolutely unnecessary, as I do not disrespect these people. They just offer but one of the myriads ways to attaining the Tao, and albeit very good ones, currently not mine.

I think there are so many traditions because there are so many different kinds of people. Some traditions might have forgotten their roots, or confused the goals and the way.

I do not know what upstream practises - I see a lot of theory, no practical applications - but it is surely different from what I do.

Oliver

[Aunt Clair]

First of all I do not think people start out with alchemy. It comes after a fair deal of work. Mantak Chia does it early on, and that did not work fine with me.Ok I can respect that . Personally I believe that many metaphysicists are practicing alchemy without being aware of what it is . And that many people remain unaware of alchemical contagion and dreamstate alchemy . But Robert Bruce would agree with you . And some of my peers disagree with my take on alchemy also .

Mantak Chia has written dozens of works without even going into any detail about stilling the mind, BTW. I am glad to hear that . As I told you imo stilling the mind has come naturally to most students .

Merely by teaching them how to sit , deep cleanse , breathe and power up the stillness comes on its own . It is a very early stage of meditation .

I have known people who do not get past this stage . These are rare .

And I apologise to you if I seem over zealous . I resemble that remark . It is my fault . I do get passionate about a few metaphysical principles . I feel it is wrong to teach that the stillness requires years or lifetimes to attain .Experience does not show this to be true . I am all about enabling humanity and sharing for free . And I feel telling someone they cannot will help them to not be able to .

So we agree that stillness of the mind is essential . But we do not agree on the natural predictable continuum of meditation then .

I feel that it is all about the energy and that when the body position is optimum and the breathing is appropriate , sufficient energy will be raised to induce a trance . These few steps are basic to all meditation forms that I have learned . And rhat is why I have studied diverse forms . I have been curious about the development of the consciousness in humanity and I seek generalizations .

I feel that all humans do better in a circle where the energy is stronger , the guides come closer , and a facilitator can support the meditation to provide a degree of protection and relaxation . So I am not surprised when an individual will say that they have tried unsuccessfully for 17 years to still the mind as it is not so easy to do alone without method and without
energy .


He also has recommended techniques that are not for anyone - this includes Sexual Qigong and the higher levels of Bone Marrow Nei Gong.
I think he misrepresents or omits the risk/benefit relationship too much for my own liking.

Ok that is concrete . Thank you . Can you please tell me why you think that these techniques are unsafe for some ? And are you aware of a link or online article about these ?


I had to painstakingly research in other literature to know what went wrong with my practise, where Chia was imprecise or lacking information. While the techniques are there and can be highly beneficial, the way they are provided is not what I think of as optimum.
Please forgive me here , I am not trying to be disrespectful but to learn .
What went wrong with your own practice , if you feel it is not too personal to share , will you explain ? Thanks.

If you teach the extraordinary to ordinary people, you have to go to extraordinary lengths to warn and inform people.
Ok here again , Robert Bruce would agree with you . He has always felt that occult practices he has learned should not be shared openly with neophytes . He is very knowledgable for example about Hermetic Magick but prefers not to teach about this or about kundalini because he feels that there is inherent danger . I rarely disagree with him but we have goodnaturedly argued about the teaching of kundalini a few times . I have learned to move slightly in his direction . I agree that he should teach foundations first . I believe that Mother Kundalini is a capable teacher generally but not always coming to the magician when they are prepared .


My energy body is coming along quite fine - I am starting to unblock, to notice my mind's workings, starting to come into my personal comfort zone of work. It simply works for me in a comfortable way, and it is the thing my Higher Self is most aligned with, not Chia, not even Robert come close, while I respect them very much. Not because they are worse I do not practise them, but for a different kind of person at a different stage. I'm aligning myself with what matches me.I am not eclectic - I am a serial monogamist. I tried techniques earnestly and with effort, and stuck with the one that felt innermost most right for me.

Respect does not mean total acceptance to me. I also take in Robert's and Mantak's information and use them in the best way possible. And I will not prevent anyone finding their true joy with these things.
I do not wish to prevent either I wish to enable others to be more successful and to continue my own jourmey learning from all on the way .

It sounds very much like you think a certain tradition is superior to another in these latest posts, which I do not think.
I do not believe that any one path is superior. I find for example equal value in Hermetic Magick ,Taoist Alchemy , Kaballah , and Christian Mysticism , Buddhism , Wicca etc. I believe all paths do lead to God , eventually . I respect the truth of other paths . I do not always respect the way that paths are instructed or interpreted though . And it sounds like we agree on this point . And I feel that connecting with Godhead and service to humanity are the raison d'etre which cannot be accomplished by waiting .

I just feel so earnestly that to fly we must begin with flying not waiting .
I want to push the birds when they are ready , from the nest . And I have come to disagreement before with those who say the student always knows when they are ready .

I am a mother of 7 children , 5 of which are adults . I have pushed them off the nest and cut the apron strings . I think it is necessary . So you are correct . I do find active seeking is superior to passive waiting .


This may be out of defensiveness of two teachers you highly respect.
Partially . I do not believe that the other camp Taoist should laugh at Mantak Chia when they have done nothing to achieve enlightenment . Ridicule and disparagement are not paths to immortality, certainly .

And I feel that it is rude to disparage Robert Bruce on his own forum . Not just because I hold him in high regard but because it is unfounded . I am not implying that you have done that but I entered into a passionate debate with upstream because I feel he has done so .

And I dont think bullies should go unchallenged or ignored . I am a school teacher by trade and I never learned to tolerate the bullies who made so many children miserable . I find that they grow up unchanged so often . It is easier to ignore or disengage on some occasions than on others .

Ultimately , I believe that metaphysical authors who teach and share with love should not be held to open ridicule by those who pretend to be peers . And I find it offensive that this practice is being common place . As upstream has noted .

I also think it is absolutely unnecessary, as I do not disrespect these people. They just offer but one of the myriads ways to attaining the Tao, and albeit very good ones, currently not mine. I see that now . But I thought you did respect them and then you posted that their approaches are unsafe , too fast and too forceful . And I disagree with that . I feel that arguing with you on this point is a natural part of discussion . And logically it follows that if you find your method superior to theirs for yourself that your energy body should have developed equally to theirs or at least substantially more with your methods than it had developed whilst practicing their methods .

I think there are so many traditions because there are so many different kinds of people. Some traditions might have forgotten their roots, or confused the goals and the way.I agree .

Thank you Oliver for respectfully disagreeing with me . I do respect your point of view and acknowledge it is held by others . I do not agree with part of your perspective . But I do respect you and I have learned more about that approach . Thank you for your discourse .

[Korpo]

It has been a joy. :)

May I note that just a year ago, maybe half a year ago I would not have been able to converse with you like this. I'm constantly working at recognising and removing emotional and thought patterns, and it begins to show. It is what I value in my work, because it enables me to become more fully human and really learn something.

The Taoist tradition I come from references as its source Lao Tse, and calls itself the "Water School". It is ultimately about abolishing our conditionings and preconditionings in order to recognise and be in harmony with the Tao. Arriving at the Great Stillness means continuous awareness of Universal Consciousness. The same teacher that taught Bruce Frantzis in this tradition taught his other foremost disciple in a way that matches more closely what you described. This is because this teacher thought each person must be given a tool that matches his deficiency most.

Mine is I cannot relax. Or could not. I am chockfull of blockage, and every time I sat down for quieting the mind I could have exploded. Now these things come into shape for me. Instead of telling me mind to be quiet I piece by piece remove the energetic conflicts that make it act crazy. I also found that relaxation is key for me to untighten the monkey mind grip.

I have already glimpsed the state I am slowly coming to in my meditation, where my awareness detaches from the identification with the monkey mind, rolled free, and was capable of seeing the workings of my mind, or better - feel them. I could touch thoughts. I could touch emotions. I could feel my monkey mind ego act separately from my base awareness. Now I need to remove more and more inner tension to get a steady grasp of this technique. Some people need to be taught how to have a grip on themselves. I need to learn how to release the steel-hard clenching I imposed on my mind.

In the end I believe many ways lead to enlightenment, the freedom of enlightenment, and understanding of Creation and realignment of the Source. I sticked with mine even through harsh problems, because my innermost intuition, and I believe that is my Higher Self, speaking to me.

I respect yours, too. I may have chosen my words poorly to overstate my point. I can see it works for so many, but I think there is always a multitude of shades between the Yin and Yang side of things, and mine is coming now from the other direction. As long as it balances out in the end, it is alright. I do not even want to predict where this journey takes me, I just have developed trust in my tools, as you have in yours from seeing them work so well.

About the Sexual Qigong of Master Chia: His technique of semen retention and Jing circulation published in "Taoist Secrets of Love" sent me into rushes of agitation. I think it is too powerful to safely practise without personal guidance. It did clear channels for me and flood me with energy, but I was becoming unbalanced and could not stabilise it.

Sexual Qigong is a highly controversial topic among all Taoist schools, because its risks are high, but possible benefits as well. Some Taoists regard it as essential, while others regards it as just too dangerous and only effective for some gifted individuals who can be constantly monitored. I found it a bit shocking to read that controversy and at the same time know that Mantak Chia has published a book named the "Multi-Orgasmic Man" which has become a life-style bible for people who just want better sex instead of spiritual progress.

I also had similar problems with the Fusion of the Five Elements (his Inner Alchemy I practise). Such things happen because the teachings are imprecise on what development must have happened to safely handle such things. If this would have been clearly spelled out, I might just have taken the hint and do other work first. But it is hard to ignore Chia's enthusiasm. :)

I'm not offended by anything you said, I just wanted to voice a different opinion, and your nice and openminded last post has allowed me to appreciate yours more.

Thank you,
Oliver

[upstream]

Nice discussion.


I do not believe that the worth of a book or a human can be judged by their overt appearance .

Nobody said that (but it's true lol). I can tell people's personality at first sight. It's all on their faces. It may be difficult to find the right words and verbalize these impressions, but I instantly know how to relate. Not but that it should change my behaviour towards my partner in any sensible way, no.

And this has nothing to with Chia. I don't know him personally. The only negative I feel about him is defensiveness, maybe resentfullness. I'm sorry if my opinion came across harsh. Instead of stroppy I meant unrestful (damn dictionary), and I insist to that lol.

Ok let's leave the man alone now. I think we both agree that both kundalini and taoist yoga have the same subject, the energy body. But these systems have striking differences in their goals and methods, which may in the long run destruct their credibility. At the very least, the basic concept of kundalini yoga with the 7 main chakras seems to be incopatible with the 3 dan-tien of the taoist alchemy.

So we want to bring these systems under a common understanding and build an integrated practice. Only after we have a common framework, can we under the control of clairvoyant feedback, design better energy practices. Without this preliminary understanding, clairvoyance at best is just a snapshot of colorful blobs.

Kundalini and kriya yoga gives little attention to the purification process (it is left for hatha and pranayama yoga) and ventures directly to the deepest level of the energy body, the shusumna. In chineese systems, much more emphasis is given to ensure the free flow of energy within the meridian system right from the beginning.

It wasn't my intention to present an all encompassing theory on the energy body or provide new energy exercises. Even if i were qualified I couldn't take that responsibility. I just wanted to make notes on a couple of processes I've found to be probable and unknown. It's unlikely, for example, that the scull bones, if involved at all, have a significant role in the external aspect of kundalini.

I rarely do any hard core energy exercises anymore but I plan to venture into kriya yoga albeit with an important difference. I plan to practice in the pre OBE and OBE state.

Currently my main practice is zhan zhuan qi gong. It's a very slow and passive method, rather tedious at the beginning. It's designed to provide a safe way to grow both energetically and in endurance, without consciously interfering with the process. It doesn't rely on imagination to evoke energy currents yet produces strong energy sensations if blockages are present. I started it after 6 years of Iyengar yoga to support my sungazing practice and to establish a strong root. Now it has outgrown its initial premises and became the backbone of my practice. One needs to do some meridian streching before standing and basically thats all (I still use yoga for that along with ba duan jin.) It's a powerful and simple practice.

ZZ is like doing cardio exercise and meditation at the same time. The standing position also favors vertical integration which is my most important goal with qi gong. My energy body appears to be free from constraints and my current goal in qi gong is to fully establish this vertical flow and build the antakarana. I still practice energy accumulation and gentle bone marrow washing though. But I do it on my own way, based on the theories I presented. There is nothing more practical than a good theory I can assure you. Basically I revise the fundamental centers again and again while I am letting ny practice to correct itself in an iterative way. My health is not perfect (I have allergy to ragweed and probably hemorrhoid) but I wasn't sick in over 10 years, not even with cold.

Basically I do the same for trance meditation, but I give more attention to tensions and newly formed blockades. I expand and repack the energy body segmentially then the whole of it at once. I also reconnect to the axial flow between the center of Earth and the Universe and that's all. At mornings I turn onto my stomach and proceed with a simple projection technique, which usually begins with imagining cleaning surfaces (lol) then forcing silence and absorbing my attention in inner sensations, such as vibrations, noises and lights.

My greatest problem with Bruce's and especially with Chia's methods that they try to imprint all kind of energy routes we don't yet fully understand. Even if the hardwiring of the energy body presented in their work is correct such undertaking is premature or completely unnecesseary. I mean I don't want to regulate the perspiration glands in my armpits. We have evolved out of the cellular, etc. level and integrated those sub-selves into human consciousness.

So I developed my own way to do energy practices within the safe framework of zhan zhuang. Instead of following esoteric energy routes I focus my attention on the elements of a functional unit I want to regulate or just conscious of.

For example, the first thing I feel when I begin to stand is warmness in my hands and the soles of my feet, as well as a pressure on my forehead and vacuum in my lower dantien. Then may come the pulsation of the sacrum and pressure on the ears. So I know these parts of the energy body are connected. This way I identified remote structures in the body that form functional units. So taking energy accumulation as the simplest example, I would concentrate on the sensations of the soles of the feet, palms of the hands and the lower dantien at once. I dont care how the channels are supposed to wind around in the legs and arms. I just focus on my intention to accumulate some extra energy. I focus on the soles of the feet while breathing in, condensing the chi into the lower dantien while breathing out. Then I just let them doing their thing. It's very basic stuff and beyond this, and grounding or connecting to the vertical flow, I really don't do anything.

Nice discussion Aunt, I will catch up with you and answer your questions tomorrow or the day after.

[upstream]

As I begin to read these 5 posts I wonder is this your "works" ? By that I mean have you extrapolated this information from reading a variety of texts and now regurgitate it here or is it authentic alchemical works ?

Authentic works can be replicated metaphysically ;

*Have you seen these structures clairvoyantly and may I and others see them clairvoyantly to and so confirm your works ?

*Likewise , can you feel this flow and feel these energy structures and may I and others feel them and find them to be as you say ?

* Have you heard this information in meditative trance from immortal teachers and if so from whom , that I might evoke them and hear the same lesson clairaudiently ?

* Have you witnessed these structures in readings that I might be able to replicate ?

* And will these works benefit humanity substantively . That is . are they practical in nature ? Can I take away from my reading of your works a practice by which I could improve my energy intake , its flow and its retention and by this develop my energy body further . Could I take from your works something tangible to share with my peers ?

* Or is it merely a descriptive text discovered by eclectic consumption of the esoteric works of ancient sages which was once derived in their own mystic visions ?

* Does it lack originality ?

* What is the source ?

Lol easy on me. It wasn't my intention to save the world the other day, just posted my recent theories on the energy body. I thought I would better share than to keep it to myself. Many of my ideas are indeed came from deep trance and I enjoy a great influx of information, but I'm not in contact yet with immortal masters.

Why do you think that immortal masters should know about this btw? They only know what everybody knows. When something is new its new entirely. I hope immortal masters will catch up if they haven't already.

On a more serious note, until we don't have the symbols and proper language to understand the energy body we cannot receive the information. What we cannot verbalise or imagine we forget. The archaic symbols of yoga and alchemy are certainly reached their limits or it was jut the human consciousness that evolved beyond them. In this post I'll show the basics of a new descriptive language I'm developing for the energy body (as far as my poor English allows).


But of course the crown chakra affects the brain , the brainstem and the spinal cord . This is historically known and has been suggested in Sanskrit works over five thousand years ago . Have you read the Upanishads , Vedas and Tantras ? The chakras are first illucidated upon therein and they were certainly imaged on the spine and the main gates were known to be the crown and root chakras .

I've read parts of those texts except the Tantras maybe but I believe I'm quite familiar with the traditional concept of chakras. I have no doubt whatsoever that the chakras when perceived clairvoyantly come through as being located along the spine. But it doesn't mean there is actually something there, just like there are no small people inside the TV set.

We shouldn't forget that we don't yet even have scientific evidences supporting the existence of chakras at the first place, no measurable energy vortexes or any kind of fields that are not supposed to be there, nada. The popular belief regarding the connection that exists between chakras and different glands or plexuses is absolutely theoretical, too. And we didn't even mention the fact that different systems don't even agree on the number of chakras or their locations.

Therefore, clairvoyanly seeing a specific set of chakras where they should be according to a given tradition doesn't prove anything. At least it certainly doesn't disprove that chakras are first off informal (astral objects) that are projected onto the holographic body image from who knows what origin by a brain related mechanism. After all, if the perception of chakras weren't separated in space, we wouldn't be able to manipulate them with our space accustomed minds.


[quote:2akst57s]This post should not be new for those who are interested in energy work. Basically we can say that the external aspect of kundalini is feed on internal and external chi, prana, or whatever terminology you prefer. I'd say that the energy sources of the external aspect of kundalini are (1) atmospheric ions / "ground prana" accumulated by the lungs and tertiary energy system, (2) metabolic chi derived from food by the digestive system, and (3) the so called ching chi of the sexual organs (represent an external storage itself which gonna be wasted otherwise). All these pools can be mobilised and converted back to "metabolic chi" (bioplasm).
I fundamentally disagree. The main gates to the energy body are at the alpha and omega apertures each flowing into the two primary kandas which occur at either end of the spinal chakral column on the crown and at the perineum respectively . All kundalini begins to activate here as the prana enters ripened pathways which have become ready to recieve her . She moves through these 2 major pathways to the chakras , stones and the spine . It is not particular to the lungs or stomach . [/quote:2akst57s]

With all my respect, this is non sense. The alpha and omega apertures belong to a much more subtle layer of the energy body than the pranic / chi accumulation system. The archetype of the latter is a tree or pyramid, whereas the apertures belong to the archetypal bindu shape, the torus. I'm not even enitrely sure that those openings are for absorbing any kind of energy. The energy I was talking about as being the primary source of the external process is chi (derived from food, earth and air).

I think what you call two kandas at the respective apertures are the two projections of the original bindu, separated or bloomed out in space according to the linear / vertical properities of the human body. The midway point at the thokar is the geometric centre of the toroidal field and closely related to the original bindu, the Sun and Higher Self.

It's strue that at the physical / external aspect of the system we have the corresponding energy fields of the brain, heart and the "abdominal brain" but still, I think the clairvoyantly witnessed structures are genuine informal objects that are projected onto the human form. As you can see I'm insecure about these things and aware of my lack of understanding. If you think you have fully understand my point of view I would like to hear your opinion where my model went wrong.


[quote:2akst57s]The pineal gland, the thalamus and the third ventricle's standing photon field, that modulates the work of the thalamus and the pineal gland, are the three most important brain structures, that without doubt, are involved in this mysterious process I call implosion, and in the support of brain bounded consciousness in general. They all together make up the middle of head center I call head bindu.

The head bindu is a projection itself, too, the in-brain projection of the original bindu through which consciousness has been broken out into physical reality. The original bindu has other projections besides the head bindu. It also manifest at the middle of the two other main cavities, chest and pelvis.
This rings true . I would like to read more on this . [/quote:2akst57s]


[quote:2akst57s]I call these points thokar and kanda, maybe not quit correctly, to remember the traditions I came from.

I see various metaphysicists refer to the crown or the perineum as "the" kanda . I see them as reciprocal kandas . In meditation we were taught the seat is the Throne of God and the scalp is the Crown of the Goddess .
We saw nadis build up like a fountain from the throne and later cascade down like a chandelier from the crown . When they meet in the heart , this begins to cure the Sunstone . [/quote:2akst57s]

I can see how this is true. The energy also cascades down to the foot to encompass the entire field. Long ago the descriptive voice I'm familiar with from my OBEs told me in paralysis that I had to expect three bumps or jerks at separation. I never actually experienced the process this way, maybe I'm not attentive enough, but a couple of years later I finally understood what he was talking about. Seems like the energy body has three interwoven compartments and all of them accessible from the previous in a linear manner (although linearity isn't necesseary) through a weird mixture of the thoroid (spheric) and circular (linear) topology. The end result looks like the topologic weirdo called Klein bottle. I will elaborate on this later to explain the first level of transition from the physical body to the bioplasm body.


Please define and link me to a sanskrit meaning of the name "Thokar ".

As far as I know thokar was a hindu prince. It also the umbrella name of various kriyas designed to drill the heart knot (second or thokar kriya). I use this term not quite correctly to identify the center of the 2nd compartment of the energy body which is related to the middle dantien and the thalamus.


The organs of the physical body that most affect the manifestation of kundalini are the brain , heart and lungs. The stomach and intestines are not primary organs of kundalini manifestation and remain unimportant .

This view will likely change in the near future. There is no doubt about the importance of the heart and lungs in our energy make-up. I also agree that the stomach does not seem to be of much importance, but guts are another thing. Even Mantak Chia aknowledges this and pinpoint the gut's microvilli as possible material candidate for the lower dantien. I might add the junction where the common iliac veins join to form the vena cava inferior and the surrounding fat tissues as well. The pulsation felt in the abdomern when the LTT becomes active is likely due to the actual physical pulsation of this vena trunk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferior_vena_cava
http://www.biotronik.de/sixcms/media.php/55/A_V_E.gif
http://www.chirurgiavascolare.com/foto/cava1.gif

Another related thing and my main point in this post is that the energy body is easily accessed by enliving gut feelings. In many ways gut feelings represent the lower end of the somatosensorium. Acting like a bridge between the internally perceived body image and the energy body gut sensations provide a sensory-energetic interface for the energy body. According to the Penfield homonculus' when one sweeps his attention across the outer surface of the body up on the leg, out through the arms then turning inside at the mouth and continue through the esophagus finally reaching the small intestine, a linear sweep of neural excitement is caused on the somatosensory cortex from the top of the head towards the temporal lobes (see the sensory representations of the Penfield homonculus). I call this maneuvre Penfield-retracton and usually repeat it many times after relaxation to have a better grasp on gut sensations and eventually the inner noise field.

The enitire route follows a topology similar to that of the Klein bottle (you need to google for a clear picture of the Klein bottle to understand the followings...try this http://web.ncf.ca/ek867/klein.bottle.jpg). The point where the inner tube of the Klein bottle drills its outer surface represents the point where consciousness leaves the physical-sensory domain of existence and enters the etheric body. If I want to press further on this analogy I'd identify the external loop of the bottle with the bioplasm cable (which I can feel after separation connected to my navel when I try to feel for the cause of the backward pull).

The point where the internal tube drills the surface and becomes the external loop corresponds to the navel center. Gut feelings are assembled here. Probably not by mere coincidence that I often felt and described my cable akin to an outstretched gut.

The Klein tube then turns inwards to make up the bottle's external surface. This phase represents the actual implosion of consciousness into the central channel (in conenction with the mysterious continuity of the crown chakra with the body and its environment). The reason why vibrations tend to peak after separation is that they are associated to the actual implosion (which may or may not take place during a bioplasmic OBE).

The ajna and navel center are the two natural focal points where conscious activity is assembled prior to implosion. You may feel pressure or vibrations at one or both of these centers before entering deep trance. One can use these centers purposefully to collect and gather themselves before venturing to the stage of shutting down the cortex by forced supression of thoughts.

I've found that the ajna center is best established by repeatedly breathing between the perineum and the forehad. This is not spinal breathing, nor breathing through the central channel. It's breathing through the lateral channels, ida and pingala, in order to synchronize lateral activities for implosion or kundalini rising.

Kechari mudra helps in the next stage. If you cannot perform advanced kechari and don't want to cut the frenulum I advise you to imagine your tongue touching the pineal gland. Then you can activate the navel center by sort of splitting of ajna activity and swallowing it down into your guts following the Penfield route by repeated sweeps. Besides the sensory / Penfield component this route has a physical component as well. Large gulps of saliva filled with chi may help even though the actual pathway follows the nervus vagus from brainstem to the center of the abdominal brain.

The ajna center is directly related to the frontal cortex and self-awareness, while the navel center is both a projection of the temporal lobe activity (or rather induced instability which can cause stomach cramps and even gases) and the actual body center of the abdominal brain. I prefer navel center over the ajna for OBE because temporal lobe activation, as a result of Penfield retraction, also increases activity in the auditory cortices (they are close to each other). So I can let my favorit thing to do for attaining silence, which is absorbing my attention into the inner noise field, separating tones, making the hiss overflow or turning it into music.

As far as I understand, this Klein bottle like topology is more than a visual symbol of the internalisation / trance process. It actually stands for as the topological fusion of the circular and thoroidal features of the energy body and provides the bridge between the circularly shaped vital processes (represented by the top level microcosmic orbit) and the spherical / toroidal shape of the subtle consciousness field with the apertures. I believe there are at least two other working instances of this weird topological maneuvre at the respective entrances of the energy body's two other compartments and corresponding dantiens. The three dantiens are not on the same layer of the energy body!


I do not find the bones to be so "hollow" as to allow such primary flow nor do I believe them to be the primary conduit of the energy flow . I do not subscribe to bone breathing . I do find the limbs are important but secondary to the spine and consequently developing after the chakras are filled and the stones are cured .

The skeletal system is a framework of support for the physical body . The energy meridians are not in the deep marrow of the bony fibers . The meridians are much more nebulous and can be seen to run through organs and bones without constraint .

Energy conduction is possible at many levels of the body from dense and localised channels like nerves and bone marrow to subtle and delocalised pathways like extraordrinary meridians or the bones crystalline structure. Bone marrow are amongst the most important conductors at the physical level and certainly in pair with nerves.

Actually the bone marrow is full of nerves and neurons, and high conductivity protein solution. Moreover, in traditional cheenese medicine the brain is considered to be analogous to the bone marrow and often called the see of bone marrow. We also shouldn't forget Mantak Chia who is fairly serious on bone breathing.

The concept of soul is strongly linked to the bones. I think the skeleton system has some not yet known electromagnatic properities that connect the body to the Earth's magnetosphere. This connection is fairly obvious in specific styles of zhan zhuang where the body is carefully alinged like an antenna.

It should not be by chance that the pineal gland is in the focal point of the scull (see imposion of consciousness). The pineal gland is already recognised as the master regulator of the circadian process. The ultimate zeitgeber that helps to synchronize Earth and body electricity at the pineal gland is related to a distinct band of magetospheric activity (peaks at 10Hz in the ultra low frequency range).

It's no an exaggeration therefore to call the pineal gland grounding gland and using its projection, the kanda in the center of pelvis, to connect to the Earth's core.

http://www.affs.org/html/biomagnetism.html
http://www.normanallan.com/Sci/Crystals.html
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/k ... awler=true (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/geop/2006/00000027/00000005/00009010?crawler=true)
http://www.eleggua.com/Spirit/Osterried ... sness.html (http://www.eleggua.com/Spirit/Osterrieder%20-%20Electricity%20and%20Human%20Consciousness.html)
http://www.paranet.fi/paradocs/keskustelua/pitkanen.pdf

[Tempestinateapot]

I just want to address a couple of issues here. The first is in regards to Korpo. When I asked him to be a moderator, he very modestly expressed that he wasn't sure it would be appropriate as he consistently uses an energy work practice other than Robert's NEW. I believe we can all learn from each other. No one is going to agree with every word Robert speaks or writes. We all have our own paths, and they are all legitimate. I was impressed with Korpo's intelligence, metaphysical studies, and his ability to see from another person's viewpoint when necessary. His being a moderator does not inherently suggest that he is religious about Robert's teachings. It suggests that I personally find him fairly open-minded and interesting. :D And, he does respect Robert's teachings, which is important.

Regarding the safety of Robert's teachings...I have personally come to think that there is no energy body system that is completely safe if people don't use common sense. After months of pushing myself to the limit using NEW, I had an amazing experience that was psychically and physically devastating. I actually joined this forum to find some answers and help with what I experienced. I have been here one month shy of a year and a half, and have come to some conclusions based on being open-minded about what I have heard and read from others. The experience that I had is sometimes referred to in Eastern disciplines as "samadhi". I have heard Robert speak of it as "God Consciousness". While is was truly the most incredible experience I've had in this lifetime, the side effects could very easily have landed me in a mental institution if it were not for an understanding husband.

I was already well experienced in meditation and altered states of consciousness, being a certified hypnotherapist (of the spiritual variety). I also was not a stranger to energy work, being a Reiki Master/Teacher and Quantum Touch practitioner. But, using NEW expanded my abilities well beyond anything else I had experienced. I did not use common sense, or listen to Robert's warning's about stopping all energy work if any problems arose. I had had some previous problems with becoming extremely light-headed and disassociated when attempting OBE. I charged up with NEW, went into meditation with the goal of going OBE, and was "gone" for over 3 and a half hours. What I now believe happened is that during the samadhi experience, I had a major Kundalini event and blew out my crown chakra. I have no idea what the "proper" terminology is for blowing out one's crown chakra, but that is what it felt like.

This event was several years ago now, and I still have ongoing problems with crown chakra energy rushes when doing deep, lengthy meditations or being in a room full of people meditating or doing energy exercises. Just walking in a room like that can start an episode that is very difficult for me to deal with as I've become very sensitive to other's energies.

Robert is aware of my experiences. I hear him speaking more and more on the necessity of stopping all energy work when there is a problem and not starting back up until one feels completely normal. So, regarding the dangers of raising Kundalini or doing energy work, I can speak from personal experience that using common sense is imperative. Although, I have to say, I wouldn't trade my experience for all the tea in China. :D

[star]

Oh thats a cool story... I don't know how to push myself with energy work. I just find that I lose interest in pushing and stimulating energy after 2 hours.

[Aunt Clair]

Why do you think that immortal masters should know about this btw? They only know what everybody knows.
I am confident that this is incorrect . The immortals are teaching spirits who continue to educate humanity about the energy body and its structures . Humans are not able to see it , feel it or otherwise percieve it as well as them . And our technology does not quantify , qualify or otherwise measure its nature , flows and its structures .

Since you cannot hear the teachers or see the energy body by what basis can you establish your theories ?Are you feeling the flow and recording that ?For it is not enough to read old works and extrapolate from them .
When something is new its new entirely. I hope immortal masters will catch up if they haven't already. Humans do not even know the fundamental basics . Humanity is not aware of the foundation of energies , flow and structures . I am sure it is humans who need to catch up and not the teaching spirits.
until we don't have the symbols and proper language to understand the energy body we cannot receive the information. What we cannot verbalise or imagine we forget. The immortals teach in the language of the mystic , we need only develop our clairience so we might see and hear the teachers and concurrently see the energy body structures and feel the energy body flow .
The archaic symbols of yoga and alchemy are certainly reached their limits or it was jut the human consciousness that evolved beyond them. I disagree .In the archetypes there exists a universal lexicon by which mystics of any language can communicate visually to each other and learn from the spirit teachers .They have left evidence of their work in this manner to future generations .

Humans develop clairvoyance before they develop clairaudience . A visually rich symbology is necessary for disemination .
I have no doubt whatsoever that the chakras when perceived clairvoyantly come through as being located along the spine. But it doesn't mean there is actually something there, just like there are no small people inside the TV set. Perhaps it is your command of English that limits your communication , as you have suggested . Are you saying that chakras don't exist or what are you attempting to convey here ? Are you saying that clairvoyance is imagination ?

We shouldn't forget that we don't yet even have scientific evidences supporting the existence of chakras at the first place, no measurable energy vortexes or any kind of fields that are not supposed to be there, nada. The popular belief regarding the connection that exists between chakras and different glands or plexuses is absolutely theoretical, tooIf the energies , structures and the body do not exist for you, then what it the point of your lengthy discussion ?

You are proposing here on a metaphysical forum that Robert Bruce and Mantak Chia have it wrong and that you have theories that are better . And yet you begin by stating that you cannot see or hear the teachers and you cannot see the energy body either .

You do not believe the metaphysical experts and now you profess do not believe the historical archetypes and established esoterica .

So you want metaphysicists to accept your theories based upon pure conjecture of your own .
And we didn't even mention the fact that different systems don't even agree on the number of chakras or their locations.
That is because the number of chakras, their size and relative location changes somewhat as the energy body develops . For example , ancient charts of 5 chakras were probably correct then . Modern charts of 8 chakras are correct for many humans today .

But the magician has more energy centres than the average human or the unaware human which is born with 7 partially lit .

The blue chakra of the mouth moves up as it grows to be at level with the nose and ears making room for the aqua chakra at the throat .

The rainbow nature of the chakras is correct and much like the rainbow of visible light in the EMR spectrum beginning with the basics and growing in time to have new colour . Between blue and green comes aqua . Between yellow and green manifests chartreuse .
Therefore, clairvoyanly seeing a specific set of chakras where they should be according to a given tradition doesn't prove anything. Perhaps you could argue that point , but then you disemble the scaffold upon which you began this discussion . You began disagreeing with the works of Robert Bruce and Mantak Chia who are not presenting traditional chakras or tan tiens. These experts do not regurgitate the prevalent 7 chakras on the spinal column.Robert Bruce wrote about the 4 vorticed new chakra on the perineum area ,which I confirm as a rose pink chakra ,beneath the traditional 7 . Robert has a very strong energy body and excellent clairsentience. He felt the energy flow and drew images based upon his first hand research which is confirmed by other metaphysicists . Mantak Chia has not yet published about the 4th tan tien on the spinal chakra column but when I wrote to him he elaborated upon its nature confirming my own perceptions and research .

And I have drawn up my own images of what I clairvoyantly witness on the energy bodies of diverse sitters . My images do not regurgitate but instead establish the existence of energy centres which have not been seen clairvoyantly or written about heretofore .
[quote:3ihtm8o2] The main gates to the energy body are at the alpha and omega apertures, each flowing into the two primary kandas which occur at either end of the spinal chakral column on the crown and at the perineum respectively . All kundalini begins to activate here as the prana enters ripened pathways which have become ready to recieve her . She moves through these 2 major pathways to the chakras , stones and the spine . It is not particular to the lungs or stomach . With all my respect, this is non sense. The alpha and omega apertures belong to a much more subtle layer of the energy body than the pranic / chi accumulation system. The archetype of the latter is a tree or pyramid, whereas the apertures belong to the archetypal bindu shape, the torus.[/quote:3ihtm8o2]I disagree, these alpha and omega apertures are the two major openings into the energy body on a model which is a tree of life . The alpha aperture is the star above Kether , and above the tree .
I'm not even enitrely sure that those openings are for absorbing any kind of energy. These do not absorb per se . These are like an os , opening and closing to take in and sustain energy within the aura , the subtle body layers and the energy body.You are saying that kundalini does not enter the chakras from above and below the spinal column .

That is not only radical and unprecedented but you have no basis upon which to dispute traditional wisdom . Kundalini runs along the spine . Traditionally it has been described as entering from the perineum . Contemporarily it has been conjectured that it also enters from above the crown . I have seen and felt kundalini entering from these two apertures into the earth and moon stones .

The alpha and omega apertures are the main openings to the body . That you cannot imagine them , does not surprise me .Visualisation is not a metaphysical skill you have professed to have developed and imagination is tantamount to it. But that does not mean it is not so .
The energy I was talking about as being the primary source of the external process is chi (derived from food, earth and air). If it was only the air we breathe and the food we eat that developed our energy body all humans would now be magicians capable of all clairience and all forms of projection and healing . The more obese ones would be advantaged also .

But it is not the case , we do not develop through such passive forms of energy intake but by bringing in energy with will and intention directly to the main internal channel in the spine .
... the external aspect of kundalini is feed on internal and external chi, prana, or whatever terminology you prefer. I'd say that the energy sources of the external aspect of kundalini are (1) atmospheric ions / "ground prana" accumulated by the lungs and tertiary energy system, (2) metabolic chi derived from food by the digestive system, and (3) the so called ching chi of the sexual organs (represent an external storage itself which gonna be wasted otherwise). All these pools can be mobilised and converted back to "metabolic chi" (bioplasm).Nor is sex an intake of energy to all humans . Then would presume that only the humans who take semen into the body cavities would derive this energy then and a heterosexual male or a celibate person would be disadvantaged and thereby unbalanced in their development.Certainly this is not so .

Do you believe that kundalini enters the body through the breath and the food and sexual fluid ?

The pineal gland, the thalamus and the third ventricle's standing photon field, that modulates the work of the thalamus and the pineal gland, are the three most important brain structures, that without doubt, are involved in this mysterious process I call implosion, and in the support of brain bounded consciousness in general. They all together make up the middle of head center I call head bindu.

The head bindu is a projection itself, too, the in-brain projection of the original bindu through which consciousness has been broken out into physical reality. The original bindu has other projections besides the head bindu. It also manifest at the middle of the two other main cavities, chest and pelvis.I would not call the stones or tan tiens, cavities . The model has been aptly called a vessel , or cauldron aptly but it is not a cavity.

And the 3 primary stones are distinct in their nature becoming more like each other only with superceding development which maintains the diversity of elemental energies in other structures . Each energy centre once ripened becomes hyperactive and then neutral . That is it reaches its prime objective and then becomes less important as more sophisticated emergent centres have now ripened and taken over that function . So the use of the chakras is superceded by the stones which will be superceded by the layesch , etc . In this manner , the energy body becomes taller , wider , stronger , cleaner and more capable of sustaining a higher vibration .

As Mantak Chia has promoted each stone must have a brain , a heart and I would add each must have a uterus . The uterus of the earth stone is much more important than the guts . It is written in Abrahamic proverbs that an enlightened man must be able to bear a child from his own body .

The brain of the moonstone allows clairience . The heart of the sunstone is the pump of the energy body . The uterus would generate new juvenile structures as the ripened earth stone has begun to do . So we would like to have these qualities in each of the 3 primary stones over time but we cannot attain this development until we ripen the Heavens stone of Air . I am confident that the nature of the heavens stone is to regulate the os of the alpha aperture to allow the energy to be drawn in rather than passively accepted . This nature begins to occur in the Earth stone much later and not inately within it .

When 4 stones on the spine develop brain , lung , heart and uterus ,then an unprecedented level of development occurs .
[quote:3ihtm8o2]I see various metaphysicists refer to the crown or the perineum as "the" kanda . I see them as reciprocal kandas . In meditation we were taught the seat is the Throne of God and the scalp is the Crown of the Goddess .We saw nadis build up like a fountain from the throne and later cascade down like a chandelier from the crown . When they meet in the heart , this begins to cure the Sunstone. I can see how this is true. [/quote:3ihtm8o2] Thank you.
[quote:3ihtm8o2]Please define and link me to a sanskrit meaning of the name "Thokar ". As far as I know thokar was a hindu prince. It also the umbrella name of various kriyas designed to drill the heart knot (second or thokar kriya). I use this term not quite correctly to identify the center of the 2nd compartment of the energy body which is related to the middle dantien and the thalamus.[/quote:3ihtm8o2]
Thanks for that .
[quote:3ihtm8o2]The organs of the physical body that most affect the manifestation of kundalini are the brain , heart and lungs. The stomach and intestines are not primary organs of kundalini manifestation and remain unimportant . ...but guts are another thing. Even Mantak Chia aknowledges this and pinpoint the gut's microvilli as possible material candidate for the lower dantien. [/quote:3ihtm8o2]I disagree .The anus and intestines are a cesspool harbouring the dirtiest of our energies . It is here that dis-ease is forming disease from our stresses which have been held onto instead of let go .

The intestines are the most difficult to draw energy through and traditionally represent the qlipoth . They hold dark energies well but they do not sustain light energies . Even on the strongest energy body the intestines remain the darkest part of the human energy body . The Earth Stone is the last of the primary stones to cure because it is so much lower and crude in vibration . It is only when the air stone manifests that the Earth stone may begin to see the light .

http://web.ncf.ca/ek867/klein.bottle.jpg


The enitire route follows a topology similar to that of the Klein bottle I dismiss this entirely . The human energy body is reciprocal and symmetrical . "As above so below" . The top is like the bottom . The right is like the left . This model of a klein bottle does not work .
I've found that the ajna center is best established by repeatedly breathing between the perineum and the forehad. This is not spinal breathing, nor breathing through the central channel. It's breathing through the lateral channels, ida and pingala, in order to synchronize lateral activities for implosion or kundalini rising.Agreed.
Kechari mudra helps in the next stage. If you cannot perform advanced kechari and don't want to cut the frenulum I advise you to imagine your tongue touching the pineal gland. Then you can activate the navel center by sort of splitting of ajna activity and swallowing it down into your guts following the Penfield route by repeated sweeps. Besides the sensory / Penfield component this route has a physical component as well. Large gulps of saliva filled with chi may help even though the actual pathway follows the nervus vagus from brainstem to the center of the abdominal brain.I have never subscribed to Taoist beliefs in the ingestion of saliva , urine or other bodily fluids.This is unnecessary and unpleasant . I enjoy great clairience and projection and I have never found it necessary to endure such unpleasantries nor are these the habits of my able peers . I feel the ingestion of semen , blood , urine and saliva does nothing to improve the magick nor the light quotient . It does not enlighten at all but is mythical in nature altogether
The three dantiens are not on the same layer of the energy body!I see and feel these tan tiens . These are stacked upon the spinal column like beads on a straw in one layer and are so described by magicians , kaballahists , European and Taoist alchemists . Some of your ideas are unfounded .
[quote:3ihtm8o2]I do not find the bones to be so "hollow" as to allow such primary flow nor do I believe them to be the primary conduit of the energy flow . I do not subscribe to bone breathing . I do find the limbs are important but secondary to the spine and consequently developing after the chakras are filled and the stones are cured .

The skeletal system is a framework of support for the physical body . The energy meridians are not in the deep marrow of the bony fibers . The meridians are much more nebulous and can be seen to run through organs and bones without constraint . Energy conduction is possible at many levels of the body from dense and localised channels like nerves and bone marrow to subtle and delocalised pathways like extraordrinary meridians or the bones crystalline structure. Bone marrow are amongst the most important conductors at the physical level and certainly in pair with nerves. [/quote:3ihtm8o2]No the limbs are secondary to the spinal column . Energy does not pass through the limbs or phalanges as well as through soft tissue and through the spine. Now one could argue perhaps that the bone is superior to the nerve . But that is not a concern to me . What I meant to impart was that the legs and arms are not primary channels . The spine is held to be the primary channel . I do not feel the vertebrate nature is responsible nor would I argue that the spinal cord is responsible .

But it is evident that the superior path is on the spine and that the spine is the path of Kundalini not the arms or legs which are more bony in mass than the supporting vertebrae of the spine.

Energy must pass through the arms and legs over time . But the energy comes down the crown to the heart to the limbs . It is particularly difficult to draw in energy to the palms, initially . Yet the reverse is not true . Humans have learned to pass psi from the palm in one lesson . The soles can take in energy better than the palms but not from air . The soles draw in when in contact with the ground . This is general to all humans .

I do not believe that the physical body systems are necessary for energy body health . The energy body is improved and developed by light energy . The health of the energy body improves the health of the physical body . But the physical body may be amputated and still the energy body is whole . The physical body may die and rot away and yet the energy body is whole .

I do not believe that cells of the body in bones , nerves or intestines or anywhere else are vital to sustain the energy body . I believe that is the other way around . The consciousness allows for clairience , travel, communication and healing after death . The physical body is the illusion . It is the energy body that sustains our spirit long after the death of our frail physical vessel.

[Tempestinateapot]

upstream said:
I have no doubt whatsoever that the chakras when perceived clairvoyantly come through as being located along the spine. But it doesn't mean there is actually something there, just like there are no small people inside the TV set. I'm going to ignore the fact that that was a rather rude comment. Instead, I would like to point out that I cannot prove that you exist and are actually there. I can't prove that science has any credibility. The practice of so called "science" has changed it's theories, knowns, and proofs for as long as it's been called a science. I can't know anything, without a doubt, beyond the fact that I am experiencing myself (me). The Eastern philosophies have no more proof of their validity than science does. There are so many Eastern beliefs, that there probably aren't 2 people in existence who agree on everything. So, quoting Eastern beliefs, science, or anything else for that matter goes completely over my head unless something about it happens to ring true to me.

One thing that I can say about Aunt Clair is that she doesn't just talk the talk. She walks the walk and has had many of the things she's seen verified by others, even a few people I know. She doesn't just read and study, she puts into practice things that she wants to learn, and pushes the boundaries of what others have tried. So, I tend to believe her rather than some text from a thousand years ago by some person I have no way of knowing where they got their info from. While I don't study the same things she does, I'm not going to tell her she's wrong when I haven't had the experiences she has. Her experiences are just as valid as anything I've experienced. When it comes right down to it, who is right and who is wrong? We all are both, depending on our perspective.