Has there ever been RTZ Scientific Study?

[LoneCrow]

Has there ever been any real honest to goodness study about OBE's on whether they are really real, or if they are just a dream state?

Like have they ever had cameras or eeg's or anything hooked up to people while they try for obe's?

Have they ever placed objects in other rooms etc for the person to come back and identify to prove they were actually out of their body?

Has anyone ever affected the outside world, or given someone else who is awake a weird feeling or something while you were there.

Is there any solid proof that this obe thing is notthing other than a lucid dream?

Just wondering. I can't have an obe, been trying for months every night solid. Tried brainwave gens and all I get are lucid dreams or other effects.

I want to know if this is really happening or if it is really just a dream state.

[Astralonaut]

Robert Monroe and Charles Tart did some experiments like this back in the 70s (I think). Tart had Monroe hooked up to EEG, EKG, blood pressure meter and whatever while Monroe attempted OBEs. Monroe did not report the test number placed in the adjacent room (as far as I remember he didn't even go into this room due to orientation problems), but he correctly reported that the technician had left her place at the controls and went out to talk with her husband. Tart did the same experiment with another projector, a young girl ("Miss Z"), and if I remember correctly, she was able to report the number.

[gorillabait]

I know Robert Bruce was engaged in some research in this area recently in Canada, but I'm not sure how it turned out.

[unison]

I would do a search on government and remote viewing. Ive also heard that the gov. spent billions of dollars on this subject during the cold war which was top secret evidence back then but I think there is some rule that they have to release it 20 years later.

[LoneCrow]

Well this is my entire point. Why the heck are people not doing any research into this?

All you'd need is someone who frequently has OBE"s or can induce them regularly. Have them try every night before they go to bed, set up a target in the other room etc.

This is why I am led to believe that this OBE thing is nothing more than vivid dreams.

[Celeborn]

Actually hospitals have been doing it for years. They set up tickertape machines in rooms in ICU which play different messages every day. The machines are pointed at an angle which can only be seen if looking down at them from the celeing.
Apparently people who report near death experiences are able to read off the messages pretty consistantly.

[Ascendant]

Ive also heard that the gov. spent billions of dollars on this subject during the cold war which was top secret evidence back then but I think there is some rule that they have to release it 20 years later.

Not nearly billions. The CIA and Army's remote viewing project, at it's height, consisted of a few people in a dinky one-story building. Admittedly they offered considerable evidence for the reality of psi, but the Army disbanded them in the mid-1990s.

Most information on the web is not accurate. I suggest reading books about it instead. Simple look up Stargate on Amazon.com, or look up Reading the Enemy's Mind, which is a book by one of the remote viewers and the groups' official historian.

[Ascendant]

Why the heck are people not doing any research into this?

They are doing a significant amount. Look up the Stanford Research Institute's connection with psi.

[CFTraveler]

This is probably not too helpful, but I read in a Discover Mag 3-4 years ago that they did a CT scan on someone who was supposedly projecting, and the parts of the brain that lit up were completely different than that of someone dreaming. I know that this doesn't really prove anything and I can't really quote whoever wrote that article. 'cause it was too long ago.. also, you may want to look up the company that uses "Remote Viewing"- once again their name escapes me- but RV differs from AP only in that in RV there has to be a control group, and the results are tested for accuracy. I don't know what their success rate is(or was), but the process in itself follows the scientific method.

[Planet_Jeroen]

http://www.♥♥♥♥♥.org/research/

That site offers a million dollar for ANY paranormal, proven, activity.

Makes you wonder...

[Chris]

http://www.♥♥♥♥♥.org/research/

That site offers a million dollar for ANY paranormal, proven, activity.

Makes you wonder...

Do a google search on that guy. From what I gather he keeps changing the goalposts and refutes everything. It seems he's never indended to pay any money out.

[unison]

Wow that is so true. No one has ever won... wonder why? Maybe this stuff is all in an area of our brain that we normally dont use but are still learning? What I would say is someone here who has the ability to project to the RTZ enter this and win a million bucks. YOu have nothing to lose and everything to gain and proof to the world that it is true and not a hoax. So now whose up to the challenge. If no one steps up thats a huge slap in the face.

[Ascendant]

People have stepped up. ♥♥♥♥♥ has either said that their claims were too ridiculous for him to entertain, or he has ignored the evidence they provide.

If you read the fine print of his offer, it says that the million will only be awarded when the individual being tested makes it "obvious" to ♥♥♥♥♥ and any other observer that he can do paranormal things. Obviously, that's a very vague term.

[Crispassion]

Ah the wonderful and 'Amazing' James ♥♥♥♥♥... In my opinion a bad magician with a bad beard who claims to be able to apply the scientific method, but has never been trained in logic or the scientific method. As much a fraud as the people he is claiming to investigate... or is that too harsh? It's only because I find his 'logic' annoying and illogical, and his mind rigid and closed. However he is a colourful and interesting character, and serves as a great illustration of how holding rigid and unbending beliefs (whether scientific in origin or otherwise...) inhibits growth and learning!

Rant over. :wink:

No hard feelings, Mr. ♥♥♥♥♥!

Cris.

[unison]

about that ♥♥♥♥♥ guy. Well i personally think that someone needs to go on national television and project and prove to america through the very mass media that has brainwashed everyone the truth about it.. Wonder if everyone after being shown straight up would believe or just blow it off.. to kinda get back on topic.. Ive only had a NDE and most of the time I think im just having a sweet vivid dream. I swear its almost as if being in the waking state. I can feel stuff too.. like solid things. its wierd.

[Deb]

As already indicated, there have been many attempts to prove OBE's exist. When your nose is bumping your ceiling, then you too will smile and realise it is not a dream state.

As to Mr. ♥♥♥♥♥, he does manage to keep the 'paranormal' in the forefront of many people's minds, does he not? Devils advocate perhaps? Methinks Mr. ♥♥♥♥♥ does not like his own experiences and requires validation via a third party.

Wonder what his parallel lives are like!

[Warriorking]

I think the best way to find out if an obe is more than a dream is experience one for yourself.

When you experience a very powerful obe you will know for yourself that there is now way it was a dream.

[Celeborn]

Warriorking wrote:

I think the best way to find out if an obe is more than a dream is experience one for yourself.

I agree. Experiencing what it was like to be in two places simultaniously as I reintegrated for the first time, having my awareness switch back and forth between my physical body and astral double at high speeds....well that was enough to knock the sceptic out of me.
There is no other feeling like it in the world.

[unison]

I feel the last few posts are strong ones at that. I think you guys have a strong belief in this stuff. I am very excited to hear it cuz if anything in the world I want this to be true and I still consider it true but remain skeptical. I would consider myself crazy if this all turned out to be a hoax. 3rd party verification couldnt hurt anything. It could only help and prove even more so the benefits of this wonderful and enlightening experience. I guess until then im just gonna have to keep practicing. Im gonna end up buying astral dynamics like today sometime and maybe 1 or two other books. Any recommendations?

[Chris]

If I am truthfully honest, I am still after proof to conclusively prove to myself that OBEs are what people suggest the are. I have received multiple instances of convincing evidence, including a genuine 3rd party verification of someone actually seeing me whilst OBE. Times matched up, locations matched up and my actions matched up. I didn't actually tell this person I was OBE, I just stated I had a weird dream and took things from there. Perhaps I am too scientifically minded in these matters, but I still am accruing proof for myself :)

[Greatoutdoors]

Unison, WarriorKing nailed it: the only way you are going to have the proof you are looking for (for now anyway) is to have it happen to you. I have had one involuntary full-blown OBE and it was incredible. And I have had other psychic stuff happen. All together they are more than enough to keep me interested, though I don't know if I will ever have voluntary control of such experiences.

On the Astral Pulse forum a poster named The Voice of Silence is doing some really fascinating stuff -- and keeping good records of his (or her) results. I don't have the link right now, but to to the site if you want and just look up his posts for this month. That should get you to the thread I am thinking about.

Also, if you can get Discover Magazine, they sometimes have articles about what hard-core scientific types are doing in the metaphysical arena. They have so far been able to induce OBE and ND experiences, as well as the Deja Vu feelings we have likely all had. This has been done, to the best of my memory, with magnetic pulses and electrical stimulation. And DON'T TRY THAT AT HOME! :)

The basic abilities we are working with are very real -- no question, no doubt! Now, as to all the window-dressing that people are adding to it; welll, that remains to be seen.

[LoneCrow]

Having something unusual happen to you shouldn't prove anything. Sure it may seem l ike a totally 100% conscious dream, it may be amazing but it doesn't prove anything.

There has to be scientific proof. Videotape of a dog reacting wierd to something in thin air. Who knows but there are so many ways this could be prove, and guess what - it hasn't been proven.

Thats the point. It hasn't been proven that what you all experience is nothing more than what is in your own head. Sure you may be travelling but its all in your own mind.

I've been trying for a looong time now and read astral dynamics I've tried all sorts of techniques, I am pretty regular in my attempts, and still nothing unusual at all. Just that remote 3rd eye viewing, where I physically saw clear as day, with my eyes closed.

I can get sleep paralysis every so often, but other than that, just some light feelings. The chakra thing is definitely real, but OBE's I really don't believe you actually leave your body.

Sorry

[Crispassion]

Its good to need proof. Certainly it is foolish to just believe other people's experiences and take it as a real part of your own life without trying to replicate it. That is all scientists do anyway - science has actually NEVER proved anything! All they do is say 'When I do so and so - this happens, do you AGREE?'. Then another scientist tries the same thing and goes either 'Yes! When I did so and so, this happened like you said - I AGREE' or 'No! When I did so and so, something else happened/nothing happened - I don't Agree'.

In other words, scientists never prove anything, they only agree with each other about what they are each INDIVIDUALLY perceiving. That's the nature of life and perception. You are a single ALONE perceiver who either agrees with others about what you perceive ('sane') or do not agree at all with others ('insane'). This is the common way of labelling these two types of perceiver, anyway!

The TRUTH is that the only thing that's real is what you are perceiving right now - whatever that is. What anyone else perceives is hoo hah. Sometimes it is useful to be able to corroborate with other perceivers that you see the same things, but you can never pretend to know anything for sure. It can never constitute 'proof'. The only science where true, purely logical, proof exists is Mathematics, and even that is debateable. A self perpetuating cycle of logic proving itself to be valid, but based all the same on assumptions of logical mathematical 'truth' which only exist in the mind!!! Specifically the human mind. Maths to a dog is 'When is my next bowl of biscuits?'.

So go ahead and try to experience what everyone else has experienced, see if you agree, or not. When you finally leave your body behind, go outside the window of your bedroom to look at the playing card you stuck there face out at random, and REMEMBER it, come back and check if you're right. Is that proof? Is it proof if you do it 10 times and never get it wrong? I would say NO. But it will convince YOU that what you're perceiving is REAL to you, RELIABLE sense data, and somehow you are gaining a perceiver's perspective from outside your body. Have you REALLY left your body, or are you just PERCEIVING from outside your body? The two scenarios are identical. Who cares? Just do it! :wink:

Cris

[pmlonline]

Hello Astral Dynamics,

What a nice place you have all created here.

First I just wanted to give my 2 cents and then a little of my own experiences.

I'm a huge believer in group consciousness. I believe all places are such a group consciousness. For example, the physical plane is one of the largest group consciousness. That means everything but spirit is not real. It is only real in the sense that the group as a whole is experiencing it. All places come and go, but your spirit is forever. There are countless locals in the Astral that are called dead realms. These are places where people used to live, but have since moved on. They are places that are no longer needed and where people no longer live. The colors eventually fade away and eventually everything dies and fades. The physical plane seems more stable because of how large this group consciousness is. On the other hand, even though this place on Earth may seem stable, we as a whole do chose our destiny.

That being said, our society as a whole is not ready for global acceptance of the non-physical locals. That is speaking in global terms of everyone on Earth. Such proof would have great influence on people in totality. If the experiments were held by well known and respected scientists then such proof would in a way force most people on Earth to believe. It is for that reason that such global proof cannot exists, yet. That is why ♥♥♥♥♥'s money will always be safe until the 1000 year peace period is well on its way. That may be in the 2030's as the 1000 year peace period is expected to begin in the mind 2020's. :-)

So lets scale down the size of such an experiment that would prove obe's. Instead of global proof, what if a group of scientists did such experiments with a surely gifted projector. The results would depend on those who are present. It would be difficult for such a projector to demonstrate such things amongst a room full of doubting scientists. Additionally, the outcome of the tests would also be influenced on what the scientists intend to do with the information. If for example, the scientists were to keep the results secret, then it would be easier for the gifted projector to prove the projections are real.

Now lets scale the experiments down to just a personal experiment. This is where many projectors may see real proof of the out of body experience. This is what I have always recommended to projectors. That is, one's own personal proof. Since such personal proof is not forcing or overlapping into the beliefs and lives of others then it becomes easier. To achieve such proof merely takes practice. Realistically, it probably takes about 5 years for the average projector. You want to project to the Etheric planes. So classically this would be called an Etheric projection. You want to focus on a location or person in this time line and in this time frame. The time frame is simply the current time that your physical body is in. So you wouldn't want to project 4 months into the future because things may look different. Additionally, there is no guarantee that you will continue on your present time line. Time lines are merely different creations. For example, in your present time line there may be a television in the north-east corner of your room, but in a nearby time line that television may be in the south-east corner. Focus of consciousness is the key.

Early on in my college years I did my own experiments. For example, I would projected to someone's back yard, then wake up in the physical, and go to that location and look over the wall into their backyard. I can only tell you that it is real when you practice enough. So yes, I have my own personal proof. Some people can obtain their own personal proof immediately. For a lot of people, you will simply need to keep projecting and focusing. Until then, enjoy your obe's. They are all real, but in the case of most newbies, you are simply creating your own world.

Peace,
Paul

[Kalonek]

Its good to need proof. Certainly it is foolish to just believe other people's experiences and take it as a real part of your own life without trying to replicate it. That is all scientists do anyway - science has actually NEVER proved anything! All they do is say 'When I do so and so - this happens, do you AGREE?'. Then another scientist tries the same thing and goes either 'Yes! When I did so and so, this happened like you said - I AGREE' or 'No! When I did so and so, something else happened/nothing happened - I don't Agree'.

In other words, scientists never prove anything, they only agree with each other about what they are each INDIVIDUALLY perceiving. That's the nature of life and perception. You are a single ALONE perceiver who either agrees with others about what you perceive ('sane') or do not agree at all with others ('insane'). This is the common way of labelling these two types of perceiver, anyway!

This is so true ( :P ), I've tried to explain this on every forum I have visited. It might be a solipsist way of thinking life, but it's the only valid in the flesh whatever one can say. And you explained this really well, thanks for giving me ideas for the next time I will need to write about this :lol:

I only got one good personal proof, but it's all I need : during a brief projection I saw my ex-girlfriend sleeping in another room, facing the wall in the left corner of the sofa, with my jacket on her. Four details that I could verify immediately afterwards (and that I had absolutely no way to know) by going to this room without noise and opening the door to take a look.

[nparker]

Has there ever been any real honest to goodness study about OBE's on whether they are really real, or if they are just a dream state?

Like have they ever had cameras or eeg's or anything hooked up to people while they try for obe's?

Have they ever placed objects in other rooms etc for the person to come back and identify to prove they were actually out of their body?

Has anyone ever affected the outside world, or given someone else who is awake a weird feeling or something while you were there.

Is there any solid proof that this obe thing is notthing other than a lucid dream?

Just wondering. I can't have an obe, been trying for months every night solid. Tried brainwave gens and all I get are lucid dreams or other effects.

I want to know if this is really happening or if it is really just a dream state.

Hi LoneCrow...

I´ve done formal studies in Universitary level physics. Anyway, despite the general disagree of scienfic community about OBE related thematics (that might have influenced my belief system about OBE) I´m able of APing. I'll done some superficial studies about APing aka OBE subject. By ease complexity I advice reading at link:

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=1052

where I show the procedure followed. Anyway I advice to take testimonial from mine as a first approach to subject. Many more and deeply studies are need.

Actual science has, in my opinion, a great failure. It tries to explain phenomena as function of another well-known phenomena.

In such a fashion of scientific method, during apparently well lead scientific researches, scientist tries of to detect brain area responsible of OBE. It seems they have had success, but, how do they discard the possibility that they hasn't detected but something like an biological (coarse stuff) echo related to activity of energy body (finer stuff). Such an echo, like a phantom mislead scientist from the right way of, first, to detect energy body. Then, characterize it. And, at last time, to identify what region are correlated to OBE activity.

My best regards...
Sincerely,
Natalia Parker

[qbeac]

Hello everybody:

We are very much interested in the subject you are discussing in this thread: validation of the experiences. We have asked ourselves the same question many times: are OBEs real or only imaginary experiences? How could we find the difference for sure?

In a Spanish Science forum (http://www.100cia.com) we have been discussing this subject in depth during several months by now (around 9 months), and we have designed a method that we believe it could work to do that. I mean it could help us to verify if these are real or imaginary experiences (a product of your imagination, dreams, hallucinations, etc.).

We have named this method the “Agnostic Method� (AM), and it is based on the mathematical probabilities of guessing by chance different types of random numbers which have been calculated by professional mathematicians of the Math sub-forum.

Since the original debate (see P.S.) is in Spanish, we have translated to English a small portion of it (some key elements) and have posted it in two English forums:

Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences
Instructions of the Agnostic Method and Table 1:
Probabilities of guessing by chance a random number (See Post #3, #4, pag. 1)
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

Whats Your Proof? (this has been a very interesting and long debate; lots of information here):
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011

Another debate about the same subject in a Science Forum:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php ... 4f&t=49410 (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=10c68e57d6419e5be08b2a0647ddf54f&t=49410)

We would be interested in knowing your opinion about the validity of this method: criticisms, possible conceptual errors you may find in it, possible improvements, etc. We will appreciate very much your comments!

The method requires for an experienced projector to read “two normal words� taken at random from a dictionary and written with large letters in a regular piece of paper.

Please, do you think you could that? Anybody around here feels capable of doing that?

Thanks a lot. qbeac.

P.S. This is the complete debate in Spanish, just in case anybody would like to check it out:

- Post #301 al #305, pag. 31. Instructions of Agnostic Method and Table 1 (in Spanish):
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?t=4290&page=31&pp=10
- Math forum MIGUI. Calculations of Table 1 done by professional mathematicians:
http://foro.migui.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1119
In case anybody needs a free translating site: http://www.freetranslation.com/

[pmlonline]

Hi qbeac,

Early on in life I've done similar experiments and have my personal proof. While out of body I would fly to someone's backyard and remember the details. Then while back in my physical body I would go to that place and look over the tall wall into their backyard to verify my experience.

I know some people who can do what you want, but what I have to say is probably not what you want to hear. Early on in life I searched for supernatural proof. One day an unusual person gave me a phone number to a private group of people. This private group was studying under a person some may call superhuman. He could vanish right before your eyes-- no cloud of smoke. He could levitate. He could read your mind even if you were in another room with your eyes closed. I personally knew this person and it was not an act or so-called magic tricks. He had what is called continuity of consciousness. Meaning that when he went to bed at night he would not lose consciousness, but would simply leave his body in full consciousness.

There are a lot of these people on Earth, but such people learn early on about an important thing called karma. I cannot begin to comprehend the amount of negative karma gained if such a person were to prove to the world such supernatural phenomenon unless that world is ready for such proof. Luckily, such attempts to provide global proof will always fail until this world is ready.

The science community is studying consciousness. One day they will learn that the physical world is not as they thought. It exists because of the group consciousness of countless Souls in our universe. On Earth, certain things will not happen until the world is ready. Unfortunately a lot of gifted people have met this force. Such gifted people may perform a strict test in front of a group of scientists, and fail. Yet, when such a person goes home in private, they are able to successfully perform the same tests time after time. The success of such experiments depends on what the scientists will do with the information and the outcome. If the experiments will affect certain people by means of hardcore proof then the experiments will fail. It is similar to your double slit experiments such as the single electron. When the electron is left alone, it displays the interference patterns, even though it is a single electron. When you *see* the electron as it traverses then the interference patterns instantly disappear. :-)

For these reasons, I have encourage people to achieve personal proof. It is far easier to find such personal proof just for yourself then for a small group of scientists to find personal proof. The odds of succeeding decrease as the group size increases. The best bet is to learn how to project and keep practicing. Also keep in mind that projection of consciousness is just the beginning. Just as a newborn baby must learn how to see, a newborn projector must also learn to correctly see and not affect his or her surroundings while out of body. So perhaps for the average person, it may take dozens of projections to achieve personal proof. If by chance you are a more spiritual developed personality, then you could very well succeed in every test.

You should get far better results if you use pictures that contain emotions rather than numbers and words. The Astral body is the Emotional / Desire body. You could have hundreds of cards each containing a different picture such as a mountain scene, the Eiffel Tower, the N.Y. Twin Towers, Mount Rushmore, etc. Also, the projector should learn to go to the Etheric plane, which is part of the Physical realm. Also, the projector needs to learn how to focus so they can project to his or her present time line. The science community is beginning to learn about this in the MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation)

Hope this helps is some small way,
Paul

[qbeac]

Hi qbeac,

Early on in life I've done similar experiments and have my personal proof. While out of body I would fly to someone's backyard and remember the details. Then while back in my physical body I would go to that place and look over the tall wall into their backyard to verify my experience... (...)
Hi pmlonline, thanks for your comments, but please, let me ask you something:

Are you saying that if we find a projector who would be willing to provide scientific proof to the scientific community, he should not do it? So, would you advise a projector like that not to do the experiments?

qbeac.

[pmlonline]

IMHO it is not wise for a projector to prove it to certain people due to karmic reasons. Such people would include most scientists. I am saying that at present conditions it cannot happen on a global scale. Even if a group of scientists successfully confirmed the projection of consciousness in a professional manner in the laboratory and freely provided the world the data in a professional manner then for reasons beyond our comprehension & control the proof will not be globally accepted. That is, the science community in totality will ignore the data. As you may know, many scientific groups have already performed such convincing tests, but the science community as a whole ignores such tests and therefore the world in totality ignores the tests since the mainstream science community does not back up such data or claims. Robert Monroe was tested. I believe he discovered that the success rate strongly depended upon the people who were present. For example, it is very difficult to successfully perform such tests to disbelievers.

One method that helps such tests succeed is to claim it is a magic trick. Claiming it is a trick (entertainment) does not have a drastic influence on the general public. For example, lets say that Barbara Walters was interviewing a magician. Lets say the magician asked her to go anyplace in the world, buy a deck of cards, and then call the magician on the phone. So Barbara Walters is at a place with her own deck of cards and calls the magician. The magician then asks Barbara to pick any card from the deck. Then the magician successfully tells Barbara what card she picked. This type of event is allowed because it is titled a "trick." It gets people thinking, but it is not an event that significantly applies enough force to globally change the beliefs of the world.

This topic is one that many skeptics and debunkers in the science community thrive on. They demand proof! From their limited material perspective they have good reasons to want such proof. What usually aggravates these people is the fact that every time they dig for the details they find a reason to explain away the claim. Yet at the same time, there are scientifically minded people who may and have completely verify such supernatural events, but do nothing with the data. Don't you think it is ironic that the people who would prove it to the world are the ones who never find their proof, but the people who find the proof do nothing with it? Again, this is similar to the double slit experiment that shook the science community. A group of scientists could set up a sophisticated experiment. Lets say a man claims to bend metal with his mind. So the scientists film this man attempting to bend the metal and nothing happens. Then everyone goes home except one of the open-minded scientists who ask the man to try it again. This time, the metal bends and it is recorded on film, but the lone scientist keeps the data to himself. This can happen, but is unlikely.

For now, I believe the best form of proof is personal proof. A scientist may perform and digitally record the most convincing proof imaginable, but for now such proof will remain as personal proof and not greatly affect the global consciousness. Another form of personal proof is by means of studying a collection of experiments from many sources. One source might include the Princeton Global Consciousness Project. http://noosphere.princeton.edu

IMHO it is best to do the experiment yourself. For most people, learning to astral project is not difficult if they are determined and put forth the effort. There is karma associated even in performing such proof in front of one person. Give it all 10 to 20 years and it will become global proof. :-)

Paul

[qbeac]

Hi pmlonline, please, what does IMHO mean?

Also, where do you get the information about what creates good or bad karma in relation to trying to prove the reality of these experiences? Have you perhaps obtained that information yourself through your own experiences or you have heard it from somebody else? If so, where have you heard it?

Thanks. qbeac.

[kazbadan]

pmonline, i see what ou mean: no one will give attention to it if someone finds the proof of OBEs and so on, but we must remember something important: with that proof to the world, probably 99,99 of the people will not care (they will think that iis bull♥♥♥♥, they will continue with their normal lifes, etc) but some people will be aware of that discovery and that will change their minds.

It makes me remember a story about Buddha life. After he reach the illumination (nirvana/nibana) he thought "The world is to much insane, no one cares about what i´ve found. People are too lazy and to "dumb" for my disovery, so i will not teach my learnings to no one". After that, a god appeared to him in dreams (or while OBEing :) ) and said to him:
"Listen you really must teach the path for Nirvana...even knowing that the majority of people will not care about the Path, at least some people will get "illuminated". There are people that are really trying to reach a Noble state like yours, so please teach!".

Buddha thought on his words and he changed his mind...and that was a real great choice! At least one people didnt get insane in life due to his teachings: me :).

(the story is not exactly- the details- like that but you get the point).

So, my idea is: teach OBE and spread it. Find proofs for OBE and show it to the world. Some people in the world will say "thank you" to you later. Just my idea.

Just one question (off topic but maybe of interest for other guys): the superhuman guy that you speak about, have you ever saw some of his powers in front of you? The capabilitie to disapear or levitate? Thats interesting. Thanks

Qbeac: IMHO means: in my humble opinion. IMO means in my opinion.

[Tombo]

Its good to need proof. Certainly it is foolish to just believe other people's experiences and take it as a real part of your own life without trying to replicate it. That is all scientists do anyway - science has actually NEVER proved anything! All they do is say 'When I do so and so - this happens, do you AGREE?'. Then another scientist tries the same thing and goes either 'Yes! When I did so and so, this happened like you said - I AGREE' or 'No! When I did so and so, something else happened/nothing happened - I don't Agree'.

In other words, scientists never prove anything, they only agree with each other about what they are each INDIVIDUALLY perceiving. That's the nature of life and perception. You are a single ALONE perceiver who either agrees with others about what you perceive ('sane') or do not agree at all with others ('insane'). This is the common way of labelling these two types of perceiver, anyway!

The TRUTH is that the only thing that's real is what you are perceiving right now - whatever that is. What anyone else perceives is hoo hah. Sometimes it is useful to be able to corroborate with other perceivers that you see the same things, but you can never pretend to know anything for sure. It can never constitute 'proof'. The only science where true, purely logical, proof exists is Mathematics, and even that is debateable. A self perpetuating cycle of logic proving itself to be valid, but based all the same on assumptions of logical mathematical 'truth' which only exist in the mind!!! Specifically the human mind. Maths to a dog is 'When is my next bowl of biscuits?'.

So go ahead and try to experience what everyone else has experienced, see if you agree, or not. When you finally leave your body behind, go outside the window of your bedroom to look at the playing card you stuck there face out at random, and REMEMBER it, come back and check if you're right. Is that proof? Is it proof if you do it 10 times and never get it wrong? I would say NO. But it will convince YOU that what you're perceiving is REAL to you, RELIABLE sense data, and somehow you are gaining a perceiver's perspective from outside your body. Have you REALLY left your body, or are you just PERCEIVING from outside your body? The two scenarios are identical. Who cares? Just do it! :wink:

Cris

I agree with you Chris, but lets look at it from an other perspective. To find things that a group is able to perceives independently of each other allows us as a group to share knowledge about it, which may lead to faster growth of knowledge regarding that subject. Also to investigate the question of proof (card experiement) regarding the astral is relevant because it helps to understand the real nature of the astral. Then there is also an other aspect in it. If we can convince people that it is possible to proof the reality of OBE in the classical sense we may be able to change our whole society. And I mean a change in a good direction. So, I understand the proof per se is a personal thing but never the less it may be worthy to proof it to others as paradox as it may sound.

[Tombo]

Hi qbeac,

Early on in life I've done similar experiments and have my personal proof. While out of body I would fly to someone's backyard and remember the details. Then while back in my physical body I would go to that place and look over the tall wall into their backyard to verify my experience.

I know some people who can do what you want, but what I have to say is probably not what you want to hear. Early on in life I searched for supernatural proof. One day an unusual person gave me a phone number to a private group of people. This private group was studying under a person some may call superhuman. He could vanish right before your eyes-- no cloud of smoke. He could levitate. He could read your mind even if you were in another room with your eyes closed. I personally knew this person and it was not an act or so-called magic tricks. He had what is called continuity of consciousness. Meaning that when he went to bed at night he would not lose consciousness, but would simply leave his body in full consciousness.

There are a lot of these people on Earth, but such people learn early on about an important thing called karma. I cannot begin to comprehend the amount of negative karma gained if such a person were to prove to the world such supernatural phenomenon unless that world is ready for such proof. Luckily, such attempts to provide global proof will always fail until this world is ready.

The science community is studying consciousness. One day they will learn that the physical world is not as they thought. It exists because of the group consciousness of countless Souls in our universe. On Earth, certain things will not happen until the world is ready. Unfortunately a lot of gifted people have met this force. Such gifted people may perform a strict test in front of a group of scientists, and fail. Yet, when such a person goes home in private, they are able to successfully perform the same tests time after time. The success of such experiments depends on what the scientists will do with the information and the outcome. If the experiments will affect certain people by means of hardcore proof then the experiments will fail. It is similar to your double slit experiments such as the single electron. When the electron is left alone, it displays the interference patterns, even though it is a single electron. When you *see* the electron as it traverses then the interference patterns instantly disappear. :-)

For these reasons, I have encourage people to achieve personal proof. It is far easier to find such personal proof just for yourself then for a small group of scientists to find personal proof. The odds of succeeding decrease as the group size increases. The best bet is to learn how to project and keep practicing. Also keep in mind that projection of consciousness is just the beginning. Just as a newborn baby must learn how to see, a newborn projector must also learn to correctly see and not affect his or her surroundings while out of body. So perhaps for the average person, it may take dozens of projections to achieve personal proof. If by chance you are a more spiritual developed personality, then you could very well succeed in every test.

You should get far better results if you use pictures that contain emotions rather than numbers and words. The Astral body is the Emotional / Desire body. You could have hundreds of cards each containing a different picture such as a mountain scene, the Eiffel Tower, the N.Y. Twin Towers, Mount Rushmore, etc. Also, the projector should learn to go to the Etheric plane, which is part of the Physical realm. Also, the projector needs to learn how to focus so they can project to his or her present time line. The science community is beginning to learn about this in the MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation)

Hope this helps is some small way,
Paul




Hello Paul

I found it very interesting what you have to say. But to clarify things and to better understand you, I’ll have a couple of questions I would like to ask you:

1) I would like to know what source you use for your comments: Personal Opinion, Personal experiences that make you conclude this, Messages from higher beings, Teachings from a Book/Teacher or something else? It would really help to understand your view better if you could clarify this point.

2) Your comment, that Obe-proofing would lead to bad Karma, I can't understand. I learned about Karma in the Buddhist Teachings: It’s is quite clear there: Actions that are done with a bad intention (too harm others) will lead to bad Karma actions with the intention to lead otheres to happiness will lead to good Karma. It means that only the intention when doing something matters. If for example you want to help somebody (lets say I give him 10 $ because you think he needs food)) but (without intention) you harm him instead (because he actually buys drugs with the 10$), this will still be good Karma for you.
In my opinion this is the only Karma-concept that makes sense and that is fair and after all this understanding was thought by the Buddha. So, in the Buddhist view, if you proof OBE to the world with the intention to help others (like I think we have in mind) this will generate good Karma, you want to help others so there is not way this could be bad! what you talk about (giving proof will lêad to bad Karma) is based on a different view of Karma. I wonder from where you learned this understanding about Karma that you proclaim. Could you also give sources or explain how you came to this view of Karma.

3) You say that proof is not possible because it would change the believes of to many people. I personally wonder if this argument holds. I think that most people on this planet already believe in non-physical planes (indigenious tribes, Buddhists, Hindus, a lot of Christs also etc) I assume that actually the majority in this planet already beliefs in this things, just the western people don't. So in this respect I doubt that the group consciousness would prevent an OBE-Proof from happening. Whats you view on that point?
Plus there are cases when people can perform miracles in front of People for example Uri Geller can do miracles on TV

4)Then you say that now the time is not right. But how do we know when the time is right? Maybe it is right tomorrow? I mean, how should we know when the time is right? How do you know?

Thanks for you input Tom

[pmlonline]

Hi,

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion.

The information comes from many sources:
1. The superhuman I spoke about. Yes Kazbadan, I saw and even experienced his superhuman ability.
2. Personal experiences / knowledge while in and out of body.
3. Specific books that I believe to be accurate.


My definition of bad and good is very simple.

Good = Construction.
Bad = Destruction.

How each person interprets what is destructive and constructive is an opinion based on ones point of view. I merely try to see things from the divine point of view.

And of course there are various degrees of each. The splitting of a single atom is less destructive than burning down someone's house. Some may say that splitting an atom is not destructive, but a transformation. Take a proton. It is a vortex of energy with a specific intrinsic vibratory rate. After the proton is destroyed it is still energy but no longer a vortex of energy that made it a proton. The proton was destroyed, but still remained energy. So the proton was lost. Now if a proton and electron were momentarily destroyed and combined with energy to create a neutron then in totality over that stream of time something was created (construction).

I was taught that karma is based on outcome, not intent. As the police say, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." If by accident a scientist creates a virus that destroys the earth then that will create negative karma even though the scientist had good intentions. Intent also creates karma, but in this case the negative outweighs the positive. I believe karma is energy. As you know, it is the law of cause and effect. When you move your finger you change all things in all creation on all levels *relative* to your perspective. Isn't everything relative?

What I was saying in previous posts was that *if* a person or group imposed *enough* force to prove the existence of OBE's to a world that is not ready then negative karma is created. Yes it might be nice if everyone was forced to believe in such things. Perhaps it would create a peaceful world, but we have to remember that we're here for class as Earth is a great school. If the Soul wanted a blissful experience then it would have never incarnated in the flesh. :-) Truth is, there are over a billion people on Earth that need to experience the expression of their wisdom that most would consider difficult times. It would be difficult and take millions of years for a Soul to experience certain things in a Utopian society. When a person is ready to believe then their higher self will guide them to the right place.

It is possible for people to use extreme force to change the beliefs of others. For example, the top 100 scientists in the world could inflict enough force in the way of scientific evidence to change the beliefs of most people on Earth. People for the most part need a way out to deny truth. That is, it would be difficult for a person to walk around every day with their hands over their ears, closing their eyes denying truth that billions of others now hold. It is like an avalanche effect as most people are followers. Of course it would take great force for such top scientists to prove such existence. They or their representatives would have to spend time on talk shows, news, radio demonstrating and showing the results. Take M-theory. Most people don't have a clue what the scientists are talking about. Heck, most scientists truly don't have clue, but they are able to convince most people that such membranes exist.

Therefore, it is possible for a talented projector to provide proof to a group of scientists. What if half the scientists would not spiritually benefit from such proof? That would create negative karma.

IMHO science has and can be good. Sometimes our end results are not as expect. Sometimes in our excitement we ignore the obvious. Did not Einstein later regret his aid in the construction of the nuclear bomb? :-( Something's are obvious such as nuclear, but other situations are not so obvious. It would be very nice to create a utopian world, but looking from a higher more divine perspective, is that what's necessary at present? I am told that the 1000 year peace period on Earth will *begin* in the early to mid 2020's. Until then, there are many shims that need to experience what present Earth offers.

For these reasons, I am merely suggesting personal proof rather than hard-core undeniable proof of OBE's. IMHO Robert Bruce offers a well-balanced system in that he is not providing hard-core undeniable proof. Rather Bruce offers some good material that has proven to be enough force for people who are ready. The Higher Self does not need much to work with to nudge and guide a somewhat developed lower-self to the right place. When a person is ready, then he or she will be guided to the right place, which may be Astral Dynamics.

People who are or near the path of Enlightenment are so guided by Divine energies that every minute action leads to wonders. These details even down to what tree Buddha leaned against may seem so trivial to us, but on the higher workings of the universe it makes a difference. When all these minute actions combine it makes a world of difference resulting in the teachings of Buddha or Christ. Some disagree that such religions played a positive role in society. From the materialistic point of view they are correct. Yet these religions played a vital role in humanity when considering the other realms from physical to divine.

With good intentions science is usually good. Learning is good. Responsible is key. Perhaps a difficult lesson for humanity is responsibility. One who holds knowledge must be responsible. If you knew how to build an antimatter bomb then would you tell the world? Such a tiny weapon could destroy the planet. If you knew the secret how to guarantee an OBE every time for any person then should you tell the world?! I say that when the world is ready then the information will come to you like clockwork. Such vital and even dangerous information will come to you when the time is right. What if all the terrorists in the world could project to the U.S. secret laboratories and learn everything? That's not such a good idea. The world is not ready for such proof or information as there are too many selfish minded people incarnated on Earth. These people who are so focused on self will not incarnate during the 1000 year peace period. Everyone here wants to learn the secrets to projection, but they are forgetting two key ingredients�Responsibility & Intent. Do you truly believe your higher & divine self would guide you to the secrets of projection when your intentions are to prove it to the world? Intentions are key. I firmly believe if a person wants proof, then the best and easiest way is self-proof. If you want to prove it to another person, then teach them the same. If your offer to teach does not spark an interest, then that's a good sign they are not yet ready.

I am not suggesting any absolutes or formulas for a specific individual. QM works with probabilities. The above formulas are just probabilities for everyone in totality as each individual must look inside if they want to know what they should do.

When the world is ready, trust me, the information will fall into the hands of the science community! :D

Paul

[CFTraveler]

Additionally, the outcome of the tests would also be influenced on what the scientists intend to do with the information.
I think this is the crux of the matter. Recently I came upon a news article on my Web browser speaking on the effects of Dopamine in the brain. The article began with the assertion that people who had "too much of it" saw patterns where there were none. When I read the article, the evidence indicated that people with a lot of dopamine could detect patterns even when they were not deliberately put in by the researchers. (But they were there, the computer confirmed it.) The data showed that the Dopamine in the brain could make people better at detecting patterns when others (normal people) couldn't. But the interpretation of the people who published the article was basically that too much dopamine makes you see patterns that aren't there. (In other words, you're delusional). My point here is that it doesn't matter how many times you prove that "paranormal" phenomena exists- if the scientific community (or the political system, for that matter- look at the present government and the debated existence of"global warming") decides that something isn't so, then it isn't-officially.

[qbeac]

Hi,

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion.

The information comes from many sources:

1. The superhuman I spoke about. Yes Kazbadan, I saw and even experienced his superhuman ability.
2. Personal experiences / knowledge while in and out of body.
3. Specific books that I believe to be accurate.

...(...)...
Hi pmlonline, your arguments are very interesting, and I wish other persons who have a lot of experience and knowledge in relation to this matter could also participate in this debate to give their own points of view. For right now, I have two questions to begin with. You say:

“...Therefore, it is possible for a talented projector to provide proof to a group of scientists...�

Therefore, from your point of view, the issue is not so much whether it is possible or not to provide/obtain proof, because you already think “it is possible to provide it�, but whether or not it should be provided, right? (btw, as far as I konw, I also believe it is possible to provide proof)

Then you also say:

“...What if half the scientists would not spiritually benefit from such proof? That would create negative karma...�

In your opinion, what if half the scientists would spiritually benefit from such proof? That would create positive karma, right?

So, what would happen to the final total karma level, will it go up or down?

Thanks. qbeac.

I have a bit of a qualm with using karma in an argument: unless you have been studying it superhumanly actively for more than ten years and can actively show it's intricacies using it in an argument is both pointless and dogmatic in a way. It's complicated, hard to understand, and even for those who have studied it for more than the above, "experts" will often get it wrong.

There is a way to "feel" the karmic impacts of an action by connecting to karmic dieties, but connecting to these entities takes a very deep understanding, one that I am sure that adept you mentioned had paul, but he likely didn't fully explain the entirety of what he was talking about since it's very hard to put into words.

Karma and destiny are two things in this world that have been misunderstood because of the new mystical movements that are trying to validate thier own experiences by making asumptions on such matters. There is, in fact, a thing called "destiny," IF one has chosen to have one, or if certain factors come into play. Even then, it is one destiny. In different timelines you can find that the "destiny" did not occur.

On the subject of the world not being ready for this: it's allready happened. Studies have been done in europe and asia, and have been made public! The monroe institute and the actually very public chineese studies which can be found through a simple google search are almost common knowledge outside the US. But, the comment Paul made on studies being affected by belief is mostly accurate in my own understanding.

This is my own understanding of the subject based on info I get by looking things up for myself and talking to people, I won't even pretend to have looked at the karmic aspect of this, my philosophy is don't worry about karma too much unless you have a specific reason to.

[lkjewr]

Hello everyone, and hello pmlonline/Paul..

All comments I request and welcome. I would particularly like your comments on the following pmlonline.

I have had the thought that perhaps sharing certain things may be hindering. I'm still not sure.. I'm learning to see everyone as a Brother, everyone. And when I think of all the great things I've learned from others: from you and fellow forum members, on this and other forums, from those of us who wrote books, or in other ways shared great info with me, I feel like me sharing the info is sharing it with another part of myself. I don't feel right withholding. I feel thankful and grateful to share. When I share a discovery it could be likened to helping to pull up those who lifted me and pushed me up to where I am. And I'm not trying to say I'm above anyone. You all pull me up to where you are.

If I withhold I feel secretive, and withholding from my means of me getting the info in the first place at that. How can I not publish my work when I learned so much from published works?? Like, how could I not share my new info on OBE, when so many people (forum members, authors, casual acquaintances, etc.) have contrubuted to the foundation of knowledge that developed the understanding, that developed that ability to draw the conclusions I did, etc??

An analogy would be like, if the only way to get water from a guord was for 5 people to lift it and hold it while all drink at the same time. One person may drink a bit quickly. If he gets his fill, should he let go of the gourd? Will it fall on the others' feet? Will they still be able to get water with only 4? I guess what I'm trying to say is, we're a team.

I notice that you are into 'The Author', M5 perhaps. He makes some points. He also teaches a very.. confrontational reality. I remember when I wrote to him saying I saw the HS. He only pointed out that I didn't see the whole thing, i.e. translation "You're inadequate, I'm the final incarnate not you, I am. I am most important, I am powerful, I know the most and the highest knowledgeable on the planet (i.e., tranlation: I'm insecure, I need to believe I'm above everyone else and that the majority are simply intrinsically less than me [minion] in an attempt to offset and hide my feelings of inadequacy and insecurity)."

I've been there. Do just a little research on psychology- if you haven't already- and you'll find a pattern of manifest superiority as a reaction to repressed feelings of inadequacy. And I've spoken to two others under his influence and they displayed similar states of mind.

I conclude his philosophy would state leave the minions to their beer and broads as they can do no more than that anyway.. And he'd probably say we have an 'individual' path, in the sense that the less evolved are stuck in their group consciousness and patterns. He's probably say something or other to the point that we're not a team unless you're less evolved I bet his take would be. I may be a bit off the specifics with that last point, but familiar with his work you get my point.

I see us all as equal, and of equal potential- simply that most of us choose not to use our full potential. Thus the more of us are that aware and persuing our potential, the more of us can be consciously aware of our potential, and persue it, thus creating more examples, and more data accumulation to help everyone already progressing, and about to progress, etc. This forum and OBE is a great example!
__

On superbeings and/or super powers: My biggest testimony for out-of-body travel leading to ascension is Ramtha, in his book through JZ Knight called The White Book. He traveled OBE to the point of at-will ability, and this developed to the effect of raising the frequency of his physical body until instead if just willing himself out-of-body at will, the whole of him went when he willed it one time. I wrote an article on this that I'm updating and will post here soon.

Are you saying that by sharing my albeit mostly theoretical knowledge on OBE leading to ascension (i.e. like I'm doing at this moment), that I'm lessening my chances to reach it? In the article I raise such a point:

Quote: "I was a bit afraid at first to open this topic, for several reasons, for one thinking that maybe stuff like ascension aren't supposed to be spoken of commonly or you might in some way ruin or impede your 'chances' at it."

But further I realized:

Quote: "It even brought up lingering (though steadily diminishing) shadow [Stuart Wilde - http://www.newsforthesoul.com/ram/wilde-shadow.ram ] elitist thoughts of wanting to be better than or above others and not wanting to ruin my chances to be. (If everyone's special, then who's special?) Forgive me."

This point is where The Author largely is- the elitist of the Shadow. I suggest you check out that interview pmlonline/Paul and everyone!

To continue, what are your thoughts on me reaching ascension, in light of the fact that I'm sharing all I know about it?? Obviously that superbeing you met isn't sharing. I haven't seen an article saying I can fly, here's how. I've not seem him on TV- at least not displaying his powers, unless he's David Blane and levitates by standing on one foot.:shock:

It's worth checking the Ramtha book out, as well as a book called The Disappearance of the Universe. Two ascended beings visit Gary Renard and share with him great truths, which he shares.

Well, here is my collage of ideas, theory, and questions. Please reply in as much detail and explanation as you can Paul. I'm just trying to learn as best I can, and help as best I can (without getting in my own way!).

P.S.: This superbeing. With what you study I believe you know that Monroe visited one (He/She). This one you met, in the US? And he specifically told you it's best not to reveal things?

I really want to understand. If I have to make a choice of going into seclusion and being superbeing or not and not, or it doesn't matter, or whatever the case, I want to be fully aware knowlegeable of it.

I like to think that we all can make it. The Ramtha walked around glowing, literally, and before he ascended levitated before people out in the open after giving a speech of what he learned through ascending.

Oh! He hated people, Ramtha. In the process of ascending and raising his vibes he learned to love people. What are your thoughts on, if everyone such as even the terrorists could OBE, who's to say that the natural process of vibration elevation wouldn't help them too??? OBE and nonphysical awarness has made me more available to more loving and elevated vibrations. My heart has opened more. My gentleness has increased. There is a possibility that even in spite of those wanting to use such technologies for destructive purposes, the process or means itself transforms one into a more constructively intending being!

Please comment sir, in as much detail and comprehensiveness you can muster- and thank you for all your sharing thus far and continuing. THANK YOU.
.

[qbeac]

Hello everybody
Hello pmlonline,

As lkjewr and Spectral Dragon suggest, I would also appreciate further clarifications on the karmic argument, because the way you, pmlonline, have presented it (or perhaps the way I have understood it, I am not sure if correctly or incorrectly), it does not seem to me to be such a clear guideline to differentiate right from wrong. On the contrary, it seems to me very confusing and even misleading. It’s like what lkjewr said, if we, as humans, know of something that we believe could lead to a better future for human kind, should we not share it with others because we might ruin their opportunity of learning the hard lessons they needed to learn?

Pmlonline, please, could you comment further on that?

That being said, and without pretending to be right, I would like to explain one of the reasons why providing empirical proof of OBE might be important and necessary to do:

The reason is because it might facilitate and accelerate the process described in the Howard Storm’s NDE which I include bellow (only an excerpt). His NDE talks about a “possible future� for human kind which will be “an optimum future�, “the best of all worlds�, as he explains. That would also imply the future for human kind is not written, but we write it ourselves everyday with our daily actions, thoughts, decisions, attitudes, etc. In the best of all worlds described in the Howard Storm NDE, the spiritual beings talk about a future in which all humanity will be aware of their real spiritual nature, and as he explains, among other things, when someone dies, the rest of them “could see the spirit leave and knew that it was time for the spirit to move on…�, which I think it means, together with the rest of things he explains in his NDE, Astral Projection might be a regular knowledge for all humans in that optimum future, isn’t it right?

Please, I would like to hear your comments about this topic.

Howard Storm's near-death experience
http://www.near-death.com/storm.html

The Therapy of Love
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html

Brief excerpt:

"...My friends explained, quite clearly, that all it takes to make a change was one person. One person, trying, and then because of that, another person changing for the better. They said that the only way to change the world was to begin with one person. One will become two, which will become three, and so on. That’s the only way to affect a major change.

I inquired as to where the world would be going in an optimistic future – one where some of the changes they desired were to take place. The image of the future that they gave me then, and it was their image, not one that I created, surprised me.

My image had previously been sort of like Star Wars, where everything was space age, plastics, and technology. The future that they showed me was almost no technology at all.

What everybody, absolutely everybody, in this euphoric future spent most of their time doing was raising children. The chief concern of people was children, and everybody considered children to be the most precious commodity in the world. And when a person became an adult, there was no sense of anxiety, nor hatred, nor competition. There was this enormous sense of trust and mutual respect.

If a person, in this view of the future, became disturbed, then the community of people all cared about the disturbed person falling away from the harmony of the group. Spiritually, through prayer and love, the others would elevate the afflicted person.

What people did with the rest of their time was that they gardened, with almost no physical effort. They showed me that plants, with prayer, would produce huge fruits and vegetables. People, in unison, could control the climate of the planet through prayer. Everybody would work with mutual trust – and the people would call the rain, when needed, and the sun to shine. Animals lived with people, in harmony.

People, in this best of all worlds, weren’t interested in knowledge; they were interested in wisdom. This was because they were in a position where anything they needed to know, in the knowledge category, they could receive simply through prayer. Everything, to them, was solvable. They could do anything they wanted to do.

In this future, people had no wanderlust, because they could, spiritually, communicate with everyone else in the world. There was no need to go elsewhere. They were so engrossed with where they were and the people around them that they didn’t have to go on vacation. Vacation from what? They were completely fulfilled and happy.

Death, in this world, was a time when the individual had experienced everything that he or she needed to experience. To die meant to lie down and let go; then the spirit would rise up, and the community would gather around. There would be a great rejoicing, because they all had insight into the heavenly realm, and the spirit would join with the angels that came down to meet it. They could see the spirit leave and knew that it was time for the spirit to move on; it had outgrown the need for growth in this world. Individuals who died had achieved all they were capable of in this world in terms of love, appreciation, understanding, and working in harmony with others.

The sense I got of this beautiful view of the world’s future was as a garden, God’s garden. And in this garden of the world, full of all beauty, were people. The people were born into this world to grow in their understanding of the Creator. Then to shed this skin, this shell, in the physical world, and to graduate and move up into heaven – there, to have a more intimate and growing relationship with God... (it continues)"

[pmlonline]

There are various karmic teaching and various interpretations. I believe the law of karma is very simple. It is the law of cause and effect. It is action and reaction on all planes. It is energy.

People and even teachers can make karma seem complex by associating it many aspects such as the Wheel of Life, or the law of desires, or types of Prarabdha. Some people even associate it with Karma Yoga. Yet, isn't that the same as trying to say a radio station is part of the laws of Electromagnetism (EM)? A radio station utilizes EM, but it is not EM. The effect of EM is not complex. We could make any topic as difficult as we want. The effect of EM is simple to illustrate by simply using your hand; i.e., point your thumb in the direction the field is traversing and your other fingers in the direction of the magnetic field component and the force is in the direction of your palm. This is effect, but how this effect works and how to predict it is complex.

How karma works is complex. For example, some may say karma is entities. In that sense, we can say everything is an entity, including a single electron. No offense to any teachings, but I don't view karma as a deity sitting on a thrown pulling strings. That's putting it in silly words, but I hope you get my point. I believe karma is energy. Yes, it is true or so I am told that all things have consciousness. For example a single electron has consciousness, but it is so minute relative to Soul consciousness. So the electron is made of tiny points of consciousness that presently merely exist to follow basic laws such as repulsion and attraction. On a grand scale, if we viewed these tiny objects that make the electron we might see tiny entities that dart here and there, but may not always make the same decision every time. In that sense they seem alive, but they do not have any complex systems such as a mental or astral or etheric body. To the scientists these tiny things are unpredictable and hence Quantum physics, which is based on the laws of probabilities. To us personalities they are unpredictable, but to say your Divine self these tiny things are predictable. We could consider an electron as part of our group consciousness. Somewhat like an eddie current in the sea. Yet that eddie is part of the sea. In totality all things are connected. This can be illustrated by viewing electric fields. We see the field around an electron touching the field of a proton and in reality those fields blend into each other.

Most Karmic teachings may be complex and it is not necessary to know them, but it is wise to be conscious of law of karma. That is, you reap what you sew.

So if half the scientists could benefit from such proof and the other half would not, then the group in totality did not gain any net karma as far as positive and negative because the group as a whole remained neutral. Yet that does not mean there was no karma. On an individual level each person gained karma.


Dear lkjewr,

You are too kind. It is great to share, but if we are to become greater than ourselves then we must become conscious of the well being of others. That is being selfless. Often we believe that sharing is always good. Yet isn't being good and selfless truly the act of helping others? So what I am saying is that sharing should come from responsibility. Surely the U.S. would not want to share the secrets of nuclear science technology. Presently humanities knowledge, in totality, of material science is far ahead of spiritual knowledge. This causes great friction and that energy must be dissipated somehow. Often this causes wars. IMHO it is good to share pure spiritual knowledge to help balance the world. So with knowledge comes responsibility. One should not feel like they are being secretive by not telling all. For example, parents do not tell their children certain things about life until they are ready.

So my point is, be responsible with information. By applying to much force to humanity in the way of hard-core proof may cause great damage. I hope others would consider what Bruce has achieved. He does not provide hard-core proof to such a degree that the science community says, "Wow, look at this." Yet he provides enough information to catch the attention of people who are more ready for such teachings. Do we really want terrorists projecting? It is better to provide a gradual means of learning this talent so that by the time the individual is adept enough to travel anywhere on Earth and retain that information that such a person would have learned about such positive aspects of life such as agape love, law of cause and effect, etc. So it may take the terrorist 5 years to become adept at projection. Then say in 5 years such a terrorist would have experienced things that would turn his or her thinking toward the positive. On the other hand, if we just gave terrorists a book that contained the exact technology and information how to instantly project then we just created a world of trouble. Yes, it is very possible to give someone enough information so that they may project within a few days. During their projections it will not magically raise their spiritual level of development so that they will no longer be terrorists. It is only over time that such terrorists will change, not over night. To change such a person so quickly would not only be extreme force based on dictatorship and lack of the freedom but would cause great negative side effects and ripples in the terrorists psyche.

lkjewr, there are beings that posses the power to make this world nearly perfect, almost a perfect utopian. For example, there is indeed a being called Christ. I merely say this to point out that such a being could by means of hard-core proof convince the world of all these things you may want to learn and share. What about God, the force that created this entire Galaxy? What about alien civilizations that are millions of years beyond ours that visit us on a daily basis? Please ask yourself why all these beings do not give us all these secrets you want to humanity. There is a good reason.

Are we all a team? Yes we are. Our elder brothers love us enough to stand back and allow us to grow! Now that takes unconditional love! It takes more love to give freedom than to jump in and do it for them. Earth is school lkjewr. God did not fail! To take away a persons freedom to learn and give them the answers to their exam is a great crime in that you are taking away their freedom to learn. That is why I am suggesting responsibility. I am suggesting that what people such as Robert Bruce offer to humanity is great. It is well balanced. Offer all the spiritual teachings. Teach about ascension. Help people with projection of consciousness in a positive aspect. Do not hold back, but some things are not meant to be yet. Key words, "Responsibility & Intent."

As to your quotes lkjewr, I do not know the person you quoted, but I see nothing wrong with teach or practicing ascension.

Yes, the superhuman I met was in the U.S. incarnated in a physical body. He and many others teach responsibility. That you should consider the well being of others. That telling all secrets is not always the best choice.

Paul

[Tombo]

Paul

You say, that a proof would create massive amount of negative Karma. Then you also say, that bad=destruction. So this seems to imply to me, that proofing OBE would destruct a lot. What exactly would that be? What you mean?

Also I want to add that if something is destructive or constructive is a very subjective thing. It depends an the system bounderies, the time span, the believe system of the person etc.

For example: Killing cancer cells in a body is destructive if viewed from the cell perspective. For the human perspective it is constructive (Human cured of cancer. lets say the Human is a murderer and kills somebody after his healing, destructive looked upon from the Family of the person killed. lets say he killed Hitler, constructive again from a global viewpoint.

What I wanna say is, that it all depends on the viewpoint. There is no construction or destruction per se. On the other side if you just look at the intention of an action, like Buddha, things get a lot more simple.

So your Karma concept seems very arbitrary to me.

Tom

[pmlonline]

So your Karma concept seems very arbitrary to me.This is a good conversation. I wanted to point out that one issue is lack of communication. I cannot speak for others, but I notice that several people are misunderstanding my words and even borderlining on misquotes.

Tom, I agree that the bad and good is a perspective. Here is my quote,

How each person interprets what is destructive and constructive is an opinion based on ones point of view. I merely try to see things from the divine point of view.
Tom, could you please provide a list of my words that seem arbitrary?



You say, that a proof would create massive amount of negative Karma. Then you also say, that bad=destruction. So this seems to imply to me, that proofing OBE would destruct a lot. What exactly would that be? What you mean?It would destroy the opportunities for billions of people to express the wisdom of their Soul in a so-called difficult environment that present Earth offers. If the Soul wanted the lower-self to be in a more perfect / utopian environment then it would stay in the mental realms. Why would it reincarnate on Earth when the mental realms are so much more perfect and positive? Also there are civilizations on other planets that most would consider utopia. So then why would your Soul incarnate you on Earth and not on another planet? Earth is already over populated. Some may say we are here to make things better, that we are here to make this a utopia. Yes, that is a great goal, but remember we already come from a place in spirit that is far better than any society on any material planet. I am saying that Earth is a school and we are all taking an exam. Yes, that is very simply put and perhaps far from a perfect analogy, but it makes the point. Imagine you are in a class taking your exam and a student next to you slipped you all the answers. Wow, how great that you would get an A+, but what did you gain?! You could just sit on a beach during the semester while other students are learning ... just get the answers from another student.

Also we should remember that it is not about knowledge, but rather the expression of wisdom. I am taught and firmly believe that our Higher-Self already knows all the answers. So then why did our Higher-Self place a veil over our memories when we incarnated? Most cannot even recall their past lives much less secrets to projection. Think about it.

Thanks,
Paul

[lkjewr]

Paul/pmlonline… :)




Dear lkjewr,



Thank you Paul/pmlonline for responding. I really appreciate learning from you. This is a bit long so please stick with me and read carefully, as I share some things I’m sure you and everyone will find very interesting..



You are too kind. It is great to share, but if we are to become greater than ourselves then we must become conscious of the well being of others. That is being selfless. Often we believe that sharing is always good. Yet isn't being good and selfless truly the act of helping others? So what I am saying is that sharing should come from responsibility. Surely the U.S. would not want to share the secrets of nuclear science technology. Presently humanities knowledge, in totality, of material science is far ahead of spiritual knowledge. This causes great friction and that energy must be dissipated somehow. Often this causes wars. IMHO it is good to share pure spiritual knowledge to help balance the world. So with knowledge comes responsibility. One should not feel like they are being secretive by not telling all. For example, parents do not tell their children certain things about life until they are ready.

Would you please check out this article??

http://www.worldtrans.org/lyssa/112edit.html

First off Paul, the info there is prime time. This is something you would enjoy regardless. Secondly, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on all we are discussing after you finish reading it.

One thing it shares is total responsibility for self. Keep in mind I didn’t write the article so my intro may not be up to par, but as I understand it to mean- Let’s say you want to share something. It's not up to you to decide if it will help that person or not. You can say hello to someone and they take offense. Here is a quote. Please read it carefully. The whole thing is important, but the italics and bold are mine to highlight a few things, which also link directly so some things I’ll say after ::

“This is another one of those topics where we can't stress enough to you that the greatest service you can provide to your neighbor is being fully who you are. Let us give you an example using a fictional model. Let's say that a woman is afraid of heights. And let's say that she came into this life for resolve a lifetime where she jumped off a cliff.

Let us also say that her husband recognizes that she is afraid of heights. So he makes sure she never is around anything high. How is she easily going to be able to face what she came here to face if the husband keeps steering her away from the heights? It makes it more difficult. It prolongs the pain.

If, in the husband's excitement he says, "I want to go hot air ballooning. Do you want to come with me?" She may just say yes because she recognizes it is something to move through. She cannot do that unless the husband gives her the opportunity to face those issues.

This is what we mean by enmeshment. You've lost the boundaries between you and other people. You try to protect other people. But in reality, you are really only trying to protect yourself from their anger, disapproval or invalidation. So the husband thinks he is protecting his wife from her fear. What he is really doing is protecting himself from being witness to her pain, or from guilt that maybe he caused her pain. He is protecting himself. At the same time, he is enabling the wife to continue being afraid and avoid her fears, when that is what she came here to face! The biggest gift you can give anyone in your life is to be fully 100% who you are. It is then that each person will be challenged. It is then that each person can take responsibility for their lives, fears, and emotions. Those emotions and reactions are never caused by someone else. They all come from you. The greatest gift you can give in a relationship is to not hold back who you really are…

“There is a big difference between deliberately hurting someone and being who you know yourself to be. If the husband dragged the wife to the top of the cliff and forced her to look over the edge, that is deliberately hurting her. Being who he is naturally is not hurting her. If she chooses to be hurt, it is her choice. But there are no victims. There cannot ever be victims.� Quoted from Fourth Density Relationships by Sasha through Lyssa Royal, http://www.worldtrans.org/lyssa/112edit.html

Like when you mention parents not sharing stuff with their kids.


For example, parents do not tell their children certain things about life until they are ready.

Common things withheld include the facts of sex/babies, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, the tooth fair, stuff like that.

Now Sex: In this society we all know sex- a natural, common experience that is the means for us being here; unless you are a test tube baby someone was shagging for you to be here- in this society sex is such a great taboo. Now the common “apparent reason� for telling kids it’s a stork or whatever may be the excuse that they are not ready, but isn’t it really the guilt, fear, and shame of the parents or adults??

Paul/pmlonline, I remember when I did an experiment as a kid. I’d already learned about sex. I went to mom after seeing an ‘OB’ commercial (tampons/rags) and asked her what are they for. Man was she squirming! She nearly pissed her pants as I pressed her for an answer. Even when I was much older, and I saw mom taking her birth control pills. I asked her what they were. It took a while, but she had to literally force it out of herself that it was birth control pills. Like Sasha/Lyssa said, it’s not that they were/are protecting me from anything. I’m certain it’s apparent that I’m intelligent. I simply want to know the facts, the truth, the reality. I don’t see myself as any way fundamentally different now then I was when they were lying to me about sex, and Santa, and stuff.

The fact that we can tell a child that a man in red flies with Reindeer to bring the X-mas presents and they believe it- that says a child will simply accept what you say is as it is, and that is simply how it is. They don’t question reindeer flying for instance. It’s just how it is for them. Telling kids about sex would for them simply be the way it is- if simply told in a guilt-free, this is the way it is, matter-of-fact, innocent way. The guilt, hush hush, and shame around the subject… ‘adults’ maintain that. Kids wouldn’t even have a concept of it being a ‘hush hush’ topic. The ‘adults’ are the ones who perpetuate that!!

So what is sex? It’s a natural part of life? What is gained by having kids believe a fundamental error about the universe, like babies coming from storks?? Isn’t that actually STUNTING the growth of the child, by inputting foundations that, when conclusions are extrapolated from, further errors occur. It’s like telling a child “2+2=3�. If they built their math skills on that supposition, then when they end up with a calculus problem with 20 steps and one step of the equation is “2+2�, would they not get the answer wrong for the entire equation?? Thus eventually we all have to wash out the LIES they told us, and rebuild parts of our mental framework and conceptions about the world. For years I believed a guy was going to come down our chimney with toys… when we had no chimney! I just bent my framework around to accept it. How is that helping my ability to reason and think logically??

The majority- OK, as far as I am concerned, ALL things withheld from kids for their so-called benefit or best good, is all truly to protect the fear, shame, guilt, lack of knowledge, etc. of the so-called adult. (If I'm wrong, please present a topic that proves otherwise- I'd like to know!)

IMO, if they ask about it, it must definitely be time for them to know. Then let's say a couple has a small child and are about to make another one. Why not introduce it? I think the reason for most- the hidden reason- is they'd be far too embarrased to do so.

(I truly believe we’re all children, just some in older bodies than others! And perhaps because some of us help to allow it to remain so!!)

How many more years advanced would kids- and thus our race be, if they simply were not made to believe such lies and deceptions? Some say, “Oh. Kids need the Santa Claus myth to have happy childhood.� That myth hasn’t been around forever. We created the myth. And well, if we never introduced the lie, there wouldn’t be such a pressure to maintain it. Like the article says, 4D, honesty, the best policy. Please, your thoughts on the above pmlonline/Paul??? - in all comprehensiveness you can muster. I greatly enjoy learning from you. :smile:


So my point is, be responsible with information. By applying to much force to humanity in the way of hard-core proof may cause great damage. I hope others would consider what Bruce has achieved. He does not provide hard-core proof to such a degree that the science community says, "Wow, look at this." Yet he provides enough information to catch the attention of people who are more ready for such teachings. Do we really want terrorists projecting? It is better to provide a gradual means of learning this talent so that by the time the individual is adept enough to travel anywhere on Earth and retain that information that such a person would have learned about such positive aspects of life such as agape love, law of cause and effect, etc. So it may take the terrorist 5 years to become adept at projection. Then say in 5 years such a terrorist would have experienced things that would turn his or her thinking toward the positive. On the other hand, if we just gave terrorists a book that contained the exact technology and information how to instantly project then we just created a world of trouble. Yes, it is very possible to give someone enough information so that they may project within a few days. During their projections it will not magically raise their spiritual level of development so that they will no longer be terrorists. It is only over time that such terrorists will change, not over night. To change such a person so quickly would not only be extreme force based on dictatorship and lack of the freedom but would cause great negative side effects and ripples in the terrorists psyche.



lkjewr, there are beings that posses the power to make this world nearly perfect, almost a perfect utopian. For example, there is indeed a being called Christ.

Paul/pmlonline, please tell me the gist what you know of this being called Christ?? Origins, present state/status? Works of his (literary, etc.!). I want to compare your description with what I know (or believe I know!). I want to hear your description first off, if that’s OK.


I merely say this to point out that such a being could by means of hard-core proof convince the world of all these things you may want to learn and share. What about God, the force that created this entire Galaxy? What about alien civilizations that are millions of years beyond ours that visit us on a daily basis? Please ask yourself why all these beings do not give us all these secrets you want to humanity.

Yes. I’ve wondered of that...


There is a good reason.

Are we all a team? Yes we are. Our elder brothers love us enough to stand back and allow us to grow! Now that takes unconditional love! It takes more love to give freedom than to jump in and do it for them. Earth is school lkjewr. God did not fail! To take away a persons freedom to learn and give them the answers to their exam is a great crime in that you are taking away their freedom to learn. That is why I am suggesting responsibility.

But how do we decide what and what is not repsonsiblility. We are all here together! How do I decide that this is or is not for my Brother/Sister to know? Wouldn’t they make that decision upon learning? There are people today, you can give them all the hardcore proof you want, they won’t accept UFOs, OBE, etc. You know, I read a book by Sasha/Lyssa called Preparing for Contact. I greatly recommend it! It mentions the story of Megellan, and how when the ships came to ‘the new land’, the Indians couldn’t see the big ship until the shaman in the village made them see it. There are people who a UFO can put right in front of, and their own lack of willingness to know can block that info. We’ve learned through holographic researches into the brain and mind that our brains and minds filter out or change much of the info we receive. So if someone is not ready for it, you can give him or her all the proof available. You can show a video, you can point to a UFO in the sky. They’ll not accept it, deny it, or not even see it. But who are we to deny them that opportunity, and make the decision for them?? It would be like definitely taking a more elevated position than I’m sure my awareness level dictates. Like kazbadan previously said, those who are not ready will simply not accept it, but those who are will move forward!


I am suggesting that what people such as Robert Bruce offer to humanity is great. It is well balanced. Offer all the spiritual teachings. Teach about ascension. Help people with projection of consciousness in a positive aspect. Do not hold back, but some things are not meant to be yet. Key words, "Responsibility & Intent."

But that seems a contradiction. “Don’t hold back… but some things are not meant to be yet… applying to much force to humanity in the way of hard-core proof may cause great damage.� Which one is it?? If I don’t hold back, and develop the ability to OBE with perfection and experiment for scientists and give hardcore proof, or/and then I ascend, and I go to a news conference and levitate there, and all this stuff, I’m not holding back. But at the same time, that would be some hardcore proof.



As to your quotes lkjewr, I do not know the person you quoted, but…

My apologies. You mentioned the word “shim� and “higher self� in the same post. The word “shim� is a trademark word used by a guy who writes of such things. I made an apparently wrong connection. Perhaps that was a typo of yours…


I see nothing wrong with teach or practicing ascension.

So you believe that if I continue as I am, and learn of ascension, practice it, share it as I go, it would not affect my ability to reach it? Because that would be making a big dent in the proof field. What if 1% of the people who read and apply the information do it and then we have 20 people flying around and stuff. It would be creating a pool of irrefutable proof. You mentioned something in a previous post about how the more people you prove it too, the harder it is, even to the point of a skilled projector failing in a room of doubting scientists who may do this or that, but will succeed with the one believing, or alone.

Listen. I believe that I can evolve and ascend, and share, and express.. It’s only helping me. As I share, others learn and share, and I learn. And those who practice similar to mine we can share the kinks we worked out.. Just like OBE. I’ve learned so much going back and forth on OBE. I have more belief and confidence in my ability to do it, that others are doing it. I figure it would be the same with ascension. Perhaps I’m answering my own question now. But from you I’d like to ask pmlonline (and anyone else), because I could be wrong and I want to know if I am.


That being said, our society as a whole is not ready for global acceptance of the non-physical locals. That is speaking in global terms of everyone on Earth. Such proof would have great influence on people in totality. If the experiments were held by well known and respected scientists then such proof would in a way force most people on Earth to believe. It is for that reason that such global proof cannot exists, yet. That is why ♥♥♥♥♥'s money will always be safe until the 1000 year peace period is well on its way. That may be in the 2030's as the 1000 year peace period is expected to begin in the mind 2020's.

So lets scale down the size of such an experiment that would prove obe's. Instead of global proof, what if a group of scientists did such experiments with a surely gifted projector. The results would depend on those who are present. It would be difficult for such a projector to demonstrate such things amongst a room full of doubting scientists. Additionally, the outcome of the tests would also be influenced on what the scientists intend to do with the information. If for example, the scientists were to keep the results secret, then it would be easier for the gifted projector to prove the projections are real.

Now lets scale the experiments down to just a personal experiment. This is where many projectors may see real proof of the out of body experience. This is what I have always recommended to projectors. That is, one's own personal proof. Since such personal proof is not forcing or overlapping into the beliefs and lives of others then it becomes easier. To achieve such proof merely takes practice.

Are you saying that with all the projection ability that RB managed, if he went in front of a board of scientists and got hooked up on the machines and stuff, he would systematically fail?? Are you saying, or would that mean, that I can develop as sound a system of ascension as I could, but since others are learning it and it would cause a greater dent in the group consciousness everyone, including myself, will be prevented by some (unknown) force from succeeding?? Or if some group of scientists get a hold if the info, even without our knowledge they follow our progress, and since they are watching and would publish the proof and accounts, does that mean we’d fail??

Please enlighten me on your position on this, or the reality of this. Please explain in as much detail as you can!



Yes, the superhuman I met was in the U.S. incarnated in a physical body. He and many others teach responsibility. That you should consider the well being of others. That telling all secrets is not always the best choice.

But again Paul, how do I decide? Which one? If I don’t hold back I have no secrets! And how do I decide what is good for that other person?? Like Sasha’s example with the husband who’s wife is afraid of heights. How do I decide I shouldn’t invite them on the ledge?? Should they make that decision?? Like kazbadan said:


We must remember something important: with that proof to the world, probably 99,99 of the people will not care (they will think that iis bull♥♥♥♥, they will continue with their normal lifes, etc) but some people will be aware of that discovery and that will change their minds..

..Buddha thought on his words and he changed his mind...and that was a real great choice! At least one people didnt get insane in life due to his teachings: me :).

So, my idea is: teach OBE and spread it. Find proofs for OBE and show it to the world. Some people in the world will say "thank you" to you later. Just my idea.

And where does it end?? When do we stop allowing this lesser than possible evolved world continue in light of the idea that ‘the majority need it, that’s what they came here for’?? That still introduces separation, that ‘they’ are different from ‘me’. “‘Theyâ€â†žÂ¢ need this barbarism, and for ‘their’ well being I must withhold this knowledge/proof/outlook from them.â€ÂÂ�

Back to the example of the wife and the fear of heights. When does the cycle stop?? When is she allowed to get over her fear?? When do the superbeings allow everyone to make their own decision about the information and facts of the matter?? Perhaps one of the reasons kids don't develop as much as the could (as in my earlier examples with sex, Santa) is because- due to our own insecurities- we don't allow them too!! I would have loved to have known the facts and have been further along, than to have been taught or allowed to believe the lies they introduced to me. Of course, depending your perspective, it might be said like you said earlier, we chose to come in this situation, etc.- Sasha: no victims. Yet, when does it stop?? The guy with the fearful wife example of Sasha!

Paul, if they are so much better than us, and our world wants barbarism, and there are so many other evolved planets and planes to be in, why are they still here?? Why don’t they go where all the other 'too evolved to share with us for our own good on a higher plane, different planet' people are?? Why are they here and not helping? Just to gloat at their status over us??

(Though I'm sure the few of us such as yourself are thankful for them being here and interacting with you, as well as I and others- for you have the opportunity to share your experience with us as you graciously did, and I'm so thankful for. :smile:)

I understand and agree with some of what you mean thus far, as I think of the book Preparing for Contact as a backdrop to your words. Thank you. Our mass consciousness has decided for instance that we have government that holds truths of UFO life from us. Yet, when does it stop?? The group mind could be asking for a change, and for instance us at the forum, who could master OBE and give solid proof, could be the answer to the mass calling?? Who are we to second guess and decide. At this point (pending your response), I am sticking with prove it, show em, etc. LIke you said, if they are not ready it won't happen anyway. I understand! My point is, who are we to decide beforehand. If I get on 60 minutes and prove it, then, as Sasha/Lyssa put it, it would be up to each in the world to decide for their individual self!! But it is not up to me to beforehand decide for them!! Isn't the ability and the drive to present such a proof in itself the mass consciousness speaking for progress !! Your thoughts please Paul??

Again pmlonline/Paul. THANK YOU for all your sharing and interactions. It seems you’ve only been here a short while, yet you have everyone thinking. :smile:

Your next post..


This is a good conversation.

I agree! Great convo..


You say, that a proof would create massive amount of negative Karma. Then you also say, that bad=destruction. So this seems to imply to me, that proofing OBE would destruct a lot. What exactly would that be? What you mean?

It would destroy the opportunities for billions of people to express the wisdom of their Soul in a so-called difficult environment that present Earth offers. If the Soul wanted the lower-self to be in a more perfect / utopian environment then it would stay in the mental realms. Why would it reincarnate on Earth when the mental realms are so much more perfect and positive? Also there are civilizations on other planets that most would consider utopia. So then why would your Soul incarnate you on Earth and not on another planet? Earth is already over populated. Some may say we are here to make things better, that we are here to make this a utopia. Yes, that is a great goal, but remember we already come from a place in spirit that is far better than any society on any material planet. I am saying that Earth is a school and we are all taking an exam. Yes, that is very simply put and perhaps far from a perfect analogy, but it makes the point. Imagine you are in a class taking your exam and a student next to you slipped you all the answers. Wow, how great that you would get an A+, but what did you gain?! You could just sit on a beach during the semester while other students are learning ... just get the answers from another student.[/quote]

Like earlier… “ where does it end?? Is not the ability and drive of someone able to prove it to the world in itself the mass consciousness approval and request for progress, change, and relief???

When do we stop allowing this lesser than possible evolved world continue in light of the idea that ‘the majority need it, that’s what they came here for’?? That still introduces separation, that ‘they’ are different from ‘me’. “‘Theyâ€â†žÂ¢ need this barbarism, and for ‘their’ well being I must withhold this knowledge/proof/outlook from them.â€ÂÂ� Back to the example of the wife and the fear of heights. When does the cycle stop?? When is she allowed to get over her fear?? When do the superbeings allow everyone to make their own decision with what they know?? [b]If they are so much better than us, and our world wants barbarism, and there are so many other evolved planets and planes to be in, why are they still here?? Why don’t they go where all the other too evolved to share with us for our own good people are?? Why are they here and not helping, just to gloat at their status over us??â€ÂÂ�


Also we should remember that it is not about knowledge, but rather the expression of wisdom. I am taught and firmly believe that our Higher-Self already knows all the answers. So then why did our Higher-Self place a veil over our memories when we incarnated? Most cannot even recall their past lives much less secrets to projection. Think about it.

I am aware of a place the answer most likely exists, but I still have to study on it. The place I speak of is the book A Course in Miracles. Someone of your intellectual stature should definitely make yourself acquainted with it. I wish at the point I understood enough to answer your question, but I promise- as long as I remember to do so- that I’ll get back with you on this.


Thanks,
Paul

You’re welcome Paul, and THANK YOU. Thank you…

P.S.

And Paul… I’m afraid to ask this question, because I don’t want you to stop telling us about it. But, is mentioning the super being… is that a breach of the ‘some things they should not know’? Like, is to even mention such beings, doesn’t that spread awareness of such possibilities, etc. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve heard about it elsewhere, with others meeting such beings, or those having fractions of their caliber. It could be because I am perusing such things more actively now that my new intention has it coming in front of my eyes more often recently. And it could be just like you said… it’s seeping in slowly but surely, a mention here, a reference there, until it gradually fruitions. But I’m sure you think about what you say. What made you introduce your knowledge and experience of that being?

And just in case, look in the book Ultimate Journey by Robert Monroe. He meets a superbeing he calls Heshe, page 50!

THANK YOU Paul/pmlonline :idea:

P.S. Be sure to press refresh if reading now (right at posting time) to catch the updates..

PMOnline:

You appear to be trying to make a complex thing such as karma into something extremely simple. This is in my opinion a logical fallacy. As you said earlier with the electrons: they are small and don't appear to have any intelligence, but there is a theory behind that called base chaos which says it is, in fact, so complicated at those low levels that we cannot possibly understand it. Whether the theory itself is correct or not, the point I am trying to make is that karma, or cause and effect, as you put it, is something which affects all levels of existince at once. One decision, such as grabbing a glass of milk, has a cause and effect reaction. My making this post to you has a cause and effect reaction. The WAY I make this post has a cause and effect reaction, the misspellings I make has cause and effect...... the list goes on and on. To wrap something as complicated as this up with the word "karma" is not only misleading but in my opinion destructive. Thus, in my opinion, using karma in an argument is useless unless you can explain and verify the details, and if you do that you will write volumes. Also, trying to wrap up karma as a simplistic view is changing the very definition of what karma is, it's really as simple as that.

Cause and Effect as I will now call it is not so simple as you think. Thus, I believe that using the idea of karma, which is cause and effect at all levels of existince, is trying to make an argument over something very simple into something which nobody can no longer use any real proof over, as we cannot prove the causes and effects of something. I will also go into the idea of beliefs: some people believe they are doing the right thing, but others will oppose and believe it is wrong. This alone makes karma very complicated. There is no such thing as good or evil in karma, it simply is effects happening on you and other people by causes known and unknown.

I agree that people have to be aware of this. However, I do not agree with it in the context of what you are using it in an argument for, though. You can't possibly know the karmic effects of such studies on a scientist. Scientists will believe what they will, they are supposed to be unbaised in thier studies. Most scientists belief structures are under constant change, though admittedly it is only small changes at a time usually. It is pointless to view this karmicly. The idea here should be, in my opinion, to do the right thing as you see it. If one believes the truth should go out there, then do so. If not, not. If yes, however, The scientists are big boys and girls, they can worry about thier own karma as pleases them :), unless of course you are intentionally trying to change them specifically, then that becomes more complicated.

My signiture fits well here. If one thinks about simplicity, simplicity comes from understanding. Understanding comes from complications. Complications come from trying to obtain experiences. Experiences cause karmic effects :D

There are many posts in these kinds of forums that say: "when I first started out this was all so complicated, now it's just simply energy or understanding" (sometimes they just say energy or understanding, or sometimes something else) This shows what I am explaining above, and where I am going with this is that simplistic views are garnered from understanding and experience. It seems simple to those people who are experienced in the matter, it is not however for people who do not as yet understand. Thus, if one does not understand karma, one should fully explain in as much detail as one can to the individuals who are trying to understand, otherwise using it in an argument is pointless.

An excellent, healthy debate here :) Nobody is getting angry or upset or flaming which is grand, and everyone is causing everyone else to thing :D

[Tombo]

Tom, I agree that the bad and good is a perspective. Here is my quote,

How each person interprets what is destructive and constructive is an opinion based on ones point of view. I merely try to see things from the divine point of view.
Tom, could you please provide a list of my words that seem arbitrary?.

What I meant with arbitary are mainly the words destructive and constructive as I tried to show in my last Post. I believe it all depends on the viewpoint if something is either one. And yes I know you said that as well. But that is my point. If this is different for me then it is for you it basically means that we can not talk about it :)

Plus I find it a little bewildering if a law such as the Karma law is subjective. In my understanding a law can not be subjective if it is then it's no longer a real law in a way. What I meant when I said that your Karma concept seems arbitary to me is, that I can not use it for any good in my every day life. I can take something that I do and I can it label good or bad depending on how I think about it, thus it is worthless.

If you expand Karma to the outcome level as you said:
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse." you end up with a lot of problems. You will be balmed for the insects that you crush when walking, this is exactly the understanding that leads to this sects that do not even dare to walk anymore. I know I'm going into the extrem here but just to make my point clear.



It would destroy the opportunities for billions of people to express the wisdom of their Soul in a so-called difficult environment that present Earth offers. If the Soul wanted the lower-self to be in a more perfect / utopian environment then it would stay in the mental realms. Why would it reincarnate on Earth when the mental realms are so much more perfect and positive? Also there are civilizations on other planets that most would consider utopia. So then why would your Soul incarnate you on Earth and not on another planet? Earth is already over populated. Some may say we are here to make things better, that we are here to make this a utopia. Yes, that is a great goal, but remember we already come from a place in spirit that is far better than any society on any material planet. I am saying that Earth is a school and we are all taking an exam. Yes, that is very simply put and perhaps far from a perfect analogy, but it makes the point. Imagine you are in a class taking your exam and a student next to you slipped you all the answers. Wow, how great that you would get an A+, but what did you gain?! You could just sit on a beach during the semester while other students are learning ... just get the answers from another student.

Ok I understand where you are coming from. But this is beliefe system that you apply. We have to grow, we are here for a reason, we choiced so.........etc It is a beautiful beliefe. But for me it is nothing more. Maybe it is not true. there are other beliefe systems that claim different. Buddha says this it not true. He says that the life wheel will never end endless incarnations will generate endless amount of sufering. you will never escape. sooner or later you will descend into the hell worlds again. this life we didn't choice, we caused it by lack of wisdom and we should try to escaspe. Suffering is not the meaning of Life

So there we have an other beliefe system. which one is true, which one should I subscripe to? I for one will only use my personal experience that is all I can reall rely on. so in that regard I can not accept your line of argument. maybe you can show me a way to find out the truth? If so I would be happy, But please be critic with our own view as well. what do you really know and what do you beliefe to be true? Even ifsomebody can vanish before you eyes still doesn't mean all he says is true.


It would destroy the opportunities for billions of people to express the wisdom of their Soul in a so-called difficult environment that present Earth offers
Also I find this view dangerous. The danger is that we don't help others because we figure they choiced to experience what evre it is they are going thru. So maybe I should not give the jobless a job maybe he choiced to life in poverty this Life.Lets not help the 3. World maybe the Souls incarnated in Africa because they wanna starve! I can not accept that my heart says NO!


Also we should remember that it is not about knowledge, but rather the expression of wisdom. I am taught and firmly believe that our Higher-Self already knows all the answers. So then why did our Higher-Self place a veil over our memories when we incarnated? Most cannot even recall their past lives much less secrets to projection. Think about it.

Good point, I think about it

Looking forward to your thoughts about this complex subject, Tom

[Planet_Jeroen]

Also I want to add that if something is destructive or constructive is a very subjective thing. It depends an the system bounderies, the time span, the believe system of the person etc.

For example: Killing cancer cells in a body is destructive if viewed from the cell perspective. For the human perspective it is constructive (Human cured of cancer.

However the human benefits from this, it's still destructive. You don't cure the human, you merely destroy the problem at hand.



lets say the Human is a murderer and kills somebody after his healing, destructive looked upon from the Family of the person killed. lets say he killed Hitler, constructive again from a global viewpoint.


It's irrelevant who you kill. You killed. If Karma is a fact, then you should not worry about your neighbour getting what he deserves, since eventualy, he'll get it.



What I wanna say is, that it all depends on the viewpoint. There is no construction or destruction per se. On the other side if you just look at the intention of an action, like Buddha, things get a lot more simple.


I'm sure that in a (from my viewpoint) sick way, Hitler's intention was to create a perfect world. He merely had to kill a few human cancer cells, but that was ok from his viewpoint.

The problem with intention, is that it is again subject to viewpoints. A 'Good Intention' or a 'Bad Intention' depends on the majority of the people judging it. While that seems to be what you would want, it also depends on what that majority has learned/come to belief. Intention based Karma would be rather useless. That would make only the leaders responsable, since the followers did so in the best intention and offcourse without questioning, as a good follower should.

If I do something which doesnt work out as planned, I'm still the initiator of that which has happned, regardless of my intention.



Regards,

Jeroen

[Planet_Jeroen]

3. World maybe the Souls incarnated in Africa because they wanna starve! I can not accept that my heart says NO!


Considder the human soul, in the sence where it remains after you day, to incarnate again in another body. Considder human nature, always growing, expanding, learning, surviving.

If there where to be young souls, and older souls, it would make sence that they choose a certain life consiously in advance, to learn (experience) certain factors of what human life means.

Other then that I find the statement that Africa equals starvation rather narrow minded: Western Civ. doesnt dicate what a good or a bad life is, what good living conditions vs bad ones are. I'm sure everybody who has experienced hunger agrees that you shouldn't have to in a world like this. On the other hand, it makes you appreciate what you have even more.

The problem is, this sounds all like I don't care, which isn't so: I admit that I cannot think of a good reason why people should experience hunger, war, etc. But the fact that we cannot think of a good reason doesnt mean there isnt one, nor does it mean that we as humans are able to determine who should/shouldn't be in that situation.

If we presume that life doesn't end when you die, but that you reincarnate into a new body, and take the lessons learned with you, in your 'gut instinct', then it isn't a loss of a life anymore, it's only a learning experience.


Regards,

Jeroen

[qbeac]

Hi everybody, I do agree with Tombo and with Kazbadan. In my opinion, the argument that we should not help others because we might prevent them from learning the necessary hard lessons they needed to learn in this life may be a fallacy, for one reason:

Because only if we knew what God knows (and we certainly don’t), we would be able to know exactly what are the lessons other people came here to learn. So, we, as humans, do not have the capacity to judge why exactly a person came to this world for. There could be many different reasons for many different people, and they may not be obvious.

Further more, if we twist the argument around, we could also say that perhaps that person came to this life, not to starve or to suffer, but to feel love and to learn compassion from others. Therefore, if we do not help him/her, we may prevent that person from learning that important lesson, which could be expressed like this:

“Take notice that they are helping you and they are being compassionate with you when you are going through hard times, so you should never forget you also need to help and to be compassionate with others whenever you can!�

See? According to that logic, this is another possibility. So, which one is right? How could we find out?

Un abrazo. qbeac.

[pmlonline]

Lkjewr,

There are several things I disagree with that quote. First I disagree when this person says, "The biggest gift you can give anyone in your life is to be fully 100% who you are." One example of a bigger gift is giving someone the freedom of growth. I am not a follower of just "being yourself." I have posted on this topic. Please let me use an analogy. Imagine a person at a particular location. Lets say that location represents who that person is at present. So if we just be who we are then we never move in life and become stagnate. Truly there's no person on Earth that never changes. Therefore, there is no person who tries 100% to be "who they are." That is, everyone has an image of what they want to become. Albeit, some people may change at such a slow rate that it appears they are not changing, they are never the less changing. Going back to the analogy, the person taking a step forward signifies the person changing in life; i.e., becoming something else. Some people take such tiny steps in life, perhaps a fraction of an inch, while others take large leaps. It is that leg that moves ahead of the body which represents what that person wants to be. If a person wants to be nice for example. Some people call that being phony, but IMHO it is the people who only be who they are at present are the ones that become more stagnate in growth. Lets say a person is truly mean. So the person makes many attempts through the day, every day, trying to be nice. In that sense, some people may call this person phony. Yet, that person is doing a great thing! One day that person will become nice because we truly become what we think. I can promise anyone that if they think / believe they are something then in time they will become that. If you want to be like superman and fly in the air in your physical body then believe in it. Perhaps in may not manifest this lifetime, but if you keep it up, then one future lifetime it will happen. If you sit and meditate with all your might for hours per day for years, then it could even happen in this lifetime. Yes I would agree with anyone that there is a good balance. You do not want to take too big of steps, like 4 feet each, because you may fall. Yet you don't want to take tiny steps and become stagnate. An example of too big of steps may be a person who tries to be like Jesus in everyone. So such a person may sell his house and everything, buy a white robe, and walk the streets touching people on the forehead hoping to heal them, lol. That is being unrealistic, but hey, who am I to judge them. Maybe it is what that person needs. Perhaps or more balanced step for such a person is taking mediation classes, or praying a lot more, reading his or her Bible more, or trying to be a nicer person, etc.
In a nutshell, I am suggesting that people not get too caught up in being themselves and don't be afraid to make changes in your life while trying to be a better person. If you want to be concert pianist, then don't be afraid to dream a little and make changes in your life to be such a person. Last but definitely not least, believe with all your heart and mind and it will happen. Two key ingredients to change is the Mind (believing / imagining) and agape Love. Love you say? Yes, when a person truly fills their life with this energy of giving / selflessness, then wonders begin to happen, but remember that it is the mind that guides and focuses that powerful energy. That energy can be used to help so many.

Lkjewr, you seem really set in that telling it all to everyone is good thing. I will beat around the bush, so I have to ask you, is it true? Do you truly believe that all beings should tell it all, everything they know? I cannot stress how wrong that it is. There is always a balance in nature. If you truly believe a being should share everything then you need to answer some questions ->

1. Do you think the U.S. should share with all terrorists the exact details how to build a nuclear missle?
2. Hypothetically, lets say there are extraterrestrials visiting and watch Earth. If such aliens possessed the knowledge who to build an Anti-Matter bomb that could blow up the entire planet Earth, then should those extraterrestrials share that knowledge to humanity on Earth?
3. Should all the teachers in schools and colleges give the students all the answers to the tests and exams?
4. Should be put video cameras in everyone's bedrooms so we can all watch couples have sex? What about children, should they have the right to learn what sex looks like dear Lkjewr? After all, "what it looks like" is information.

Those are but a few of endless questions. Some of the questions regard security and danger, while others are about privacy. Each being should have the right to some privacy in life. IMHO telling everything to everyone is very irresponsible, dangerous, and disrespectful to God's creation.

You asked some very detailed information about the being Christ. I've had OBE's with this being, but they're personal and not meant to be shared with just anyone-- perhaps one day during the Earths peace period.

I am told that Christ originates from a period call the Sun Period. The Sun Period exists two Earths ago. That is, before this planet was created there was a cosmic night, and before that cosmic night there was another Earth. Before that Earth was another cosmic night, and then before that was another Earth. That Earth existed during the Sun Period. So the planet that Christ originated from has long disintegrated.

I am told that Christ presently exists in the highest plane in our Cosmic Physical Plane, but may freely travel to the next higher Cosmic plane and even down to our Astral plane. This being is not comprehendible by the present mind of humanity. Truly it is almost exactly like an average Plant trying to comprehend a superhuman.

I am told that Christ is the highest initiate in the kingdom of Archangels.

I am told that Christ is well in the spiritual evolution of fragmented consciousness. That is, Christ's consciousness is so vast that he/she may be in thousands of locations at once.


You asked how we may decide what and what is not a responsible action. As you may know, perfection is illusion. Destruction is perception, one which I chose to try and view from a more Divine aspect. Not that my shim is Divine mind you, lol. In short, we must try our best. That is all God expects from each of us, to try the best that we know how. It is not your right to decide for another being unless they ask, but giving another being is 100% your responsibility. Receiving is not the right of another being but a possible gift. By you not telling everything has nothing to do with you making a decision for another being. It is your decision.

Back to proof, as you said there are people who will not believe. Yet that does not mean that can be forced to believe. Everyone has a threshold. As mentioned in a previous post, if the 100 scientists had hard-core proof and went on national t.v. shows around the world then they could convince most people. Everyone has a threshold, and if an extraterrestrial wanted, they could fly down and prove their existence to *any* sane person. Do you know anyone that could deny that? If an extraterrestrial flew down to the capital of your country and then went to your street and allowed you to touch the saucer, and go inside, and talk with these beings, and even allowed you to fly inside, then what? Lets say you asked to be flown to your friends house, you got out and knocked on his or her door. Then what? Lets say for the next 10 years this extraterrestrial agreed to be your personal escort and fly you anywhere you wanted day or night. Would that convince you or anyone else in such a case?
That's some pretty powerful convincing force! So in short, everyone who has a working mind has a threshold and it is no right for such an extraterrestrial to inflict such hard-core proof to humanity at this present moment. That is exactly why they are watching us. Yes, they have met with some people of governments. Yet they will not provide enough force that would prove it to the world. Just as there's plenty of proof of projection, there's not enough proof for the world in totality. Most people may believe it is possible, yet do they really believe? What they believe in is the *possibility*. They may say they believe but there are many layers to a personality. Deep down there is still that question. Until a person has really done it, and until they projected to various places previously unknown to them and then went there in the flesh, then they will begin to really believe. That's why I merely recommend personal proof. If your friend wants to believe then sure, go ahead and help him or her.

So here perhaps are some other questions you could ask yourself ->

1. Lets say there are extraterrestrials viewing Earth now. Could such an extraterrestrial prove their existence to anyone with a sane working mind?
2. Do you really know the exact spiritual development of each person on Earth?
3. Can you say with certainty that every being needs a utopian life where nothing goes wrong?
4. Can you say with certainty that no being, from lower to higher to our divine self, wishes to experience with expression of its wisdom in the denser more so-called difficult life that we now know.
5. Can you say with certainty that this so-called difficult life most now experience will do some kind of damage to our spirit? That is, if a person experiences pain, say from a splinter of wood, then does that pain truly damage their spirit?
6. And 1 billion years from now, can you say that spirit will say, "Gee, I sure wished I never experienced those things. Gosh, I should have just incarnated on a perfect planet where nothing went wrong, where everyone was perfect, where I never experienced pain, where I never had to decide if I should tell someone some secret information because everyone already new everything on that planet. A perfect planet where God told everyone everything and so then nothing was to done and hence no pain!"
7. If you believe in God, or some form of group consciousness, then do you think God's plan failed? That is, do you truly believe God's plan was truly for man kind to only experience a perfect "nothing goes wrong" type of existence for eternity and eternity without end?


You asked, 'But that seems a contradiction. “Don’t hold back… but some things are not meant to be yet… applying to much force to humanity in the way of hard-core proof may cause great damage.� Which one is it??'
What I am saying is that you should try your best and not hold back and do nothing. Try your best! That is, try to do the best that you think is good. Think, contemplate, and meditate before doing something so global. You may not need to think for hours before tying your shoe but when attempting to provide hard-core global proof or OBE's you should be responsible in your actions. I am here merely to suggest that such attempt at providing global hard-core proof is not a wise choice. IMHO, what Robert Bruce has done is great! Personally I know for certain that each person is guided by his or her higher and divine self and that if they are ready to experience such proof then they will be guided when ready.

Shim is trademark? I've seen it used by many and has been around for a while. I use shim to mean the lower self.


You said that if you teach ascension then perhaps some people may attain it and then begin flying around. I do not agree. Ascension is a spiritual topic and teaching it is spiritual teachings. When a person ascends then the last thing they will do is fly around in any body that people in the physical can see. Ascension is when a person becomes liberated from the reincarnation cycle. That is, they no longer need to reincarnate in physical bodies. This is called Liberation. Each person has a choice when they are liberated. They may do as what most do, which is move on to higher planes, which would be the Mental realms, and never reincarnate. Or the liberated person may *choose* to continue and reincarnate. In such a rare case, they are referred to as a Avatar. Jesus for example was an avatar. Avatars are very responsible and will not do anything against what is good for all of humanity.


You asked if RB could prove projection to scientists. As already stated, this has been done by many projectors. And as stated, such proof will not spread globally for reasons beyond our present understanding and control. The question might be, "Is it spiritually good to make such attempts." I've already answer that, and the answer at present is no.



Paul, if they are so much better than us, and our world wants barbarism, and there are so many other evolved planets and planes to be in, why are they still here??[/b] Why don’t they go where all the other 'too evolved to share with us for our own good on a higher plane, different planet' people are?? Why are they here and not helping? Just to gloat at their status over us??They are here to help. As stated, they do not tell everything under the sun because that is not help humanity. Please answer all the above questions to yourself to perhaps see why it is so important to not tell everyone everything. Please tell me what you do not understand about the vitally important facts regarding not telling everything to everyone. Please answer the question above (1-4 and then 1-7) and study it awhile. Then please tell me if you still truly believe that all beings should be an open book and tell everything to everyone.

Thanks,
Paul

[qbeac]

Hello pmlonline, you say:

“… I am here merely to suggest that such attempt at providing global hard-core proof is not a wise choice…�

My question to you is this one:

Do you only “suggest� the above statement or are you “totally sure� that providing proof should not be done?

Please, could you comment on that? Thanks. qbeac.

[pmlonline]

You appear to be trying to make a complex thing such as karma into something extremely simple. This is in my opinion a logical fallacy. As you said earlier with the electrons: they are small and don't appear to have any intelligence, but there is a theory behind that called base chaos which says it is, in fact, so complicated at those low levels that we cannot possibly understand it. Whether the theory itself is correct or not, the point I am trying to make is that karma, or cause and effect, as you put it, is something which affects all levels of existince at once. One decision, such as grabbing a glass of milk, has a cause and effect reaction. My making this post to you has a cause and effect reaction. The WAY I make this post has a cause and effect reaction, the misspellings I make has cause and effect...... the list goes on and on. To wrap something as complicated as this up with the word "karma" is not only misleading but in my opinion destructive.
You say that it is destructive and misleading to use the word karma because you believe it is complex. You say it is complex because there are vast amounts of examples such as grabbing a glass of milk. Then by that definition *every topic* becomes complex and misleading and destructive. You can't talk about any law or force that does not have countless examples. By your definition, anything we talk about is destructive and misleading.

I am saying that karma means Cause & Effect. I am saying that the basic unit here is Cause and the Effect. Just like light for the human eye can be broken down into three basic colors. That is what science does. It tries to find the simplicity in the complex. Why would anyone want to make something complex. In reality everything is simple. Just ask God, lol. :-)

Take the law of electromagnetic (EM) waves. Light can bounce off a million objects and surely it would be a nightmare to predict such a complex example but that does not mean light is complex. Scientists can write the basic EM equation. Trust me, it is very small. With that very small equation a scientist could predict very complex examples. They can plug that equation into a computer and make some predictions of very complex examples. I am not saying that we should get out our calculators and start writing down the paths of light and spend years calculating any particular outcome. I am not suggesting we do that with karma. I have used the word karma because I am focusing on two key words, Responsibility and Intent? We agree that karma is Cause & Effect. We agree that even grabbing a glass of milk has a cause and effect. Then the effect of proving something to the world definitely has a cause and effect. I am not suggesting that we read about any particular theory from India on karma to try and predict what is going to happen. That is beyond any present known science; spiritual or material. I am saying that is karmic in nature and that it is good to try and do our best, to think, use every tool we hold dear to be responsible to our actions and intent. How can I communicate about such concepts without using the word karma? How is it destructive to say that karma is simple when we both agree that karma is cause & effect. Has not science done a great job at proving that complex things *can* be made simple. Lets make it as simple as possible, but not to simple. I think Einstein said that. :-) Einstein is a classical example of a scientist. Most agree he did wonders in the science community. He made so many things that initially seemed astronomically complex into something simple. I hope you get the point. Complex things can be made simple as classical physicals is a prime example of that. Scientists do never claim the equation works under all extremes. Classical equations do not work under relativistic speeds or in the subatomic realms. Yet the equations work great within the claimed regions.



There is no such thing as good or evil in karma, it simply is effects happening on you and other people by causes known and unknown.
By my understanding there is good and evil, but as stated it is a relative perspective. Bad is destruction and good is construction over a period of time. I believe God is good because in totality God creates. In totality there is a gradual evolution. Take the previous kingdom that we know as the Angelic kingdom. I believe 1/3rd fell and became the fallen angelic kingdom. This group of beings exist in the Astral and Etheric worlds trying to influence people of such things as "Don't think about karma." So in totality, 1/3 fell, but 2/3 continued to rise. The fallen angelic kingdom is full of jealously and anger and definitely destroys more than creates. Yes, they will be given another chance and then another and another chance in the future. In time even they will rise. The universe in totality over time evolves into more complex energies. So I believe God is good.



I agree that people have to be aware of this.
That is good and I agree with you, but some people would disagree, unfortunately. I see this topic as spiritual teachings and will always try my best to shed light on this topic as there are many people that unbeknownst to them are being psychically influenced by beings such as the fallen angelic kingdom that have pure hatred and jealousy for Human Kingdom.



However, I do not agree with it in the context of what you are using it in an argument for, though. You can't possibly know the karmic effects of such studies on a scientist.
I think we are getting to the heart of this discussion. As stated, it is not about being perfect and making the correct decision. Rather it is about trying your best. The karma part comes in with responsibility and intent.



Scientists will believe what they will, they are supposed to be unbaised in thier studies. Most scientists belief structures are under constant change, though admittedly it is only small changes at a time usually. It is pointless to view this karmicly. The idea here should be, in my opinion, to do the right thing as you see it. If one believes the truth should go out there, then do so.
But "doing" is about karma. When you "do" something, you are causing and effect.



An excellent, healthy debate here :) Nobody is getting angry or upset or flaming which is grand, and everyone is causing everyone else to thing :D
Agreed.

Thanks,
Paul

[pmlonline]

If this is different for me then it is for you it basically means that we can not talk about it :)
Can't we?! :-) I can tell you where my perspective is and you can tell me yours. As stated, I try to see from a more Divine perspective. For instance, I know that each person has a Divine Self, a Spark of infinity within the Soul. I also know that my Spark completely agrees 100% with your Spark. It is simply our lower nature, our shim, our lower self, our personality that may disagree. :)



Plus I find it a little bewildering if a law such as the Karma law is subjective. In my understanding a law can not be subjective if it is then it's no longer a real law in a way. What I meant when I said that your Karma concept seems arbitary to me is, that I can not use it for any good in my every day life. I can take something that I do and I can it label good or bad depending on how I think about it, thus it is worthless.
But I use it everyday. It is the law of Cause & Effect. I know that if I do something negative to a person then that energy which I created, karma, will reflect back on myself. I can easily see this through out my life. I reap what I sew. Karma does care about relativity. It is energy. It is beyond time and space. As example, if someone tortures another being, then that person one day in this or another life will see a reflection of that energy. The law of cause and effect doesn't care how you perceive that reflection / effect in your life. You can only know that you will see an equal and opposite reaction. How you interpret that reaction is up to you. It is your choice to perceive anything as pleasure or even pain.




If you expand Karma to the outcome level as you said:
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse." you end up with a lot of problems. You will be balmed for the insects that you crush when walking, this is exactly the understanding that leads to this sects that do not even dare to walk anymore. I know I'm going into the extrem here but just to make my point clear.
Exactly, that is what karma is, cause & effect. You crush an insect and you gained karma. You even move your finger and you gain karma. An insect is far less complex energy system than a human. Why not take this example to more extremes. Lets say that you destroy a molecule. That molecule is less complex a system than an insect and it will have less an effect on you. Yet these examples are merely on the material plane. Lets move on up to the metal planes. On there you can see the thoughts of humans. These thoughts also create karma. What was your intent with the insects? Did you even know about them dying? You may not even know that you kill a few hundred large insects in your life, but that is material karma. I can assure you that the pain of a human is far more than the pain of an Ant. We should always have compassion for all things and try our best to do good. As perhaps a poor analogy, you could say that the consciousness of an Ant is like a simple Eddie in the sea, but a human is like a computer program such as Windows. If it interests anyone, they can mediate on how many average Ants equal an average human being on present Earth. So you may accidentally step on 1000 Ants in your life, but maybe only 100 Ants bit you and cause a very slight amount of physical damage. Ask God if the two equal out. We are not required to spend years weighing out such minute details-- just try own best. Now deliberately killing millions of Ants is a different story. :-)



Ok I understand where you are coming from. But this is beliefe system that you apply. We have to grow, we are here for a reason, we choiced so.........etc It is a beautiful beliefe. But for me it is nothing more. Maybe it is not true. there are other beliefe systems that claim different. Buddha says this it not true. He says that the life wheel will never end endless incarnations will generate endless amount of sufering. you will never escape. sooner or later you will descend into the hell worlds again. this life we didn't choice, we caused it by lack of wisdom and we should try to escaspe. Suffering is not the meaning of Life
Often humanity misinterprets. Bibles and books have a difficult time remaining unchanged over 1000's of years. Take the Holy Bible. It now has 66 books! Yet it once had over 70 books! And within each book are massive changes due to changes in languages to even deliberate changes.
Groups wanted to control the populace back then. It is to their advantage to change a translation by saying you will go to hell for eternity if you are bad. When it reality no prophet ever said that. Rather, each Soul *may* go to lower astral hells *until* they learn their lesson.

It is true that the Wheel of Life never ends, but it does for an individual. I know for certain, with all my being, that Buddha did not say what you claim. Buddha knew that all things evolved and to suggest that any *actual* being will always reincarnate for eternity is a contradiction to that because that actual being will eventually evolve beyond the physical plane.




So there we have an other beliefe system. which one is true, which one should I subscripe to?
But this again is based outside of personal proof. Again, I am suggesting personal proof. I have my personal proof. I know that if I had some magic pill or device that could instantly give you all my proof that one day in your future, say a billion years from now, you will have not wanted me to do that! I nor anyone has the right to take the experience of your self discovery away from you. I have my own OBE experiences and tests I've performed. I have met superhumans. Perhaps you have, but that is your own personal information. I chose not to write a book and sell it. Just to merely make a few posts here and there. Yet that will change one day. Perhaps one day soon it may be my time to tell it. I doubt is since I was told my present life is one of observation. Many people reincarnated with the previous intent to become a world known teacher. Maybe you will become such a teacher one day.

Once again, personal proof. That is where your answers are.



I for one will only use my personal experience that is all I can reall rely on. so in that regard I can not accept your line of argument. maybe you can show me a way to find out the truth? If so I would be happy,
It is not my will or right that you accept but that you consider and do your best. My finger is pointing to self-proof. It may take 5 or more years, but so what. That's not too bad for most.



But please be critic with our own view as well. what do you really know and what do you beliefe to be true? Even ifsomebody can vanish before you eyes still doesn't mean all he says is true.
That's good advice. Like QM says, it's all about probability. When you flush your toilet, you're pretty much betting it will flush, no? In life you have learned to trust your senses. I go to a place and later come back and it's the same. The laws of nature remain the same for you. When you drop a ball, it usually falls. Sometimes it moves left, but you learned that is due to wind. Over time you learned that when this invisible wind blows on your left face that the ball usually moves a little to the right. Over time people trust things, like turning on ones computer and trusting that Windows will boot up. Okay, perhaps bad example, lol. You place your own personal weight system on what's more stable in your life. Over time you learn what is more stable and predictable. Same goes with OBE's. Over time a person not only will learn what's real but even how to see without creating one's own illusionary world.




It would destroy the opportunities for billions of people to express the wisdom of their Soul in a so-called difficult environment that present Earth offers
Also I find this view dangerous. The danger is that we don't help others because we figure they choiced to experience what evre it is they are going thru. So maybe I should not give the jobless a job maybe he choiced to life in poverty this Life.Lets not help the 3. World maybe the Souls incarnated in Africa because they wanna starve! I can not accept that my heart says NO!
True, but still have try your best to do what is correct by thinking and following your heart. What if one day a person develops their astral and mental unit and becomes such a superhuman. That you are then so developed that you can sense your intuition like it was standing next to you talking. And you learn to trust your intuition. So then you walk by a homeless man and your intuition says he is a most wonderfully good person at heart and is ready for a big change in life. So then you spend months of your life helping this homeless person. Yet, one day you pass by another homeless person and your intuition says this person at heart does not want a big change in life. That he has a lot more to gain by experiencing hardship in life. What if over time you learned to trust that small still voice of intuition? What if over time that intuition proved its correctness. What if by changing that homeless mans life in a big way that he one day commits suicide for whatever reason. Or perhaps more realistically, what if the homeless person was robbed of some experiences that would have taught him some vitally important lessons in life. Surely you have heard so many stories of millionaires, billionaires, or other types of successful people, who say that one day something happened in their life that changed everything. It could be the most minute effect that triggers some idea or perhaps makes them understand what pain is. Perhaps a painful experience suddenly gives them the drive to become successful.

You say that my view is dangerous. Yet surely you would admit that there are countless examples of people learning vitally important things from difficult experiences. I think once again you may be mixing a *concept* with an *example*. I am providing the concept. You are saying that concept is dangerous because of such and such examples. Yet, surely you admit that concept is true. That is, some people will benefit from more difficult experiences such as the homeless person. As stated, this homeless person may one day experience something that changes his life forever. I believe in destiny. That is, I believe *certain* experiences are preplanned before we incarnate and are meant to be.

Please read my quote again. In there I am not saying what you should do. Often I make suggestions. I am pointing out a concept, a reality, that people gain from certain experiences regardless if that person perceives it as difficult, painful, easy, or pleasurable. It seems you are implying that I suggest people not help others. Did you by chance read all my other text in previous posts that we should be selfless and help others and try our best to do well?

Paul

[pmlonline]

Jeroen,

You seem to have a strong grasp on these things, but I only have question on one of your statements.


The problem with intention, is that it is again subject to viewpoints. A 'Good Intention' or a 'Bad Intention' depends on the majority of the people judging it. While that seems to be what you would want, it also depends on what that majority has learned/come to belief. Intention based Karma would be rather useless. That would make only the leaders responsable, since the followers did so in the best intention and offcourse without questioning, as a good follower should.

With regard to your statement, "Intention based Karma would be rather useless." I think most agree that Karma is the law of Cause & Effect. So then why do you believe that Intention cannot be based on Karma? If we substitute the word "karma" with "cause and effect" then does it sound untrue to say -> "Intention based on cause and effect would be rather useless." Should not an intention be based on what the outcome would be, hence the effect?

Paul

[pmlonline]

[quoteThe problem is, this sounds all like I don't care, which isn't so: I admit that I cannot think of a good reason why people should experience hunger, war, etc. But the fact that we cannot think of a good reason doesnt mean there isnt one, nor does it mean that we as humans are able to determine who should/shouldn't be in that situation.[/quote]
I have a few.

* Difficult experiences help us appreciate life more.

* I've heard many successful people tell of a difficult experience that turned their life around and was responsible for their success. I cannot even begin to count how many multi millionaires wrote of their very difficult poverty level experiences that became the turning point and intense motive in their life to become successful. When I was a youngster I used to love the concept of Entrepreneurial. One note I learned early on was the rather highly unusually occurrence of self-made millionaires coming from very difficult times. I often wondered if I needed to become dirt poor to become a millionaire, lol.

* I am told that we are here to express the wisdom of our Soul and that entails that we experience all things. So that would include the more so-called difficult times.

Paul

[pmlonline]

Hi everybody, I do agree with Tombo and with Kazbadan. In my opinion, the argument that we should not help others because we might prevent them from learning the necessary hard lessons they needed to learn in this life may be a fallacy, for one reason:

Because only if we knew what God knows (and we certainly don’t), we would be able to know exactly what are the lessons other people came here to learn. So, we, as humans, do not have the capacity to judge why exactly a person came to this world for. There could be many different reasons for many different people, and they may not be obvious.

Further more, if we twist the argument around, we could also say that perhaps that person came to this life, not to starve or to suffer, but to feel love and to learn compassion from others. Therefore, if we do not help him/her, we may prevent that person from learning that important lesson, which could be expressed like this:

“Take notice that they are helping you and they are being compassionate with you when you are going through hard times, so you should never forget you also need to help and to be compassionate with others whenever you can!�

See? According to that logic, this is another possibility. So, which one is right? How could we find out?
Hi,

I am not sure that you are seeing this in its basic element. For example, I am not suggesting any absolutes. Rather, that we should try our best. I offer what everyone here surely admits, including yourself, that it is possible that a person such as a homeless person may benefit from a difficult experience. Please see my previous posts for many examples from previous experiences of millionaires to homeless people. You mentioned that we would know if God knows. Surely we, our lower self, our personality, does not know what God knows, but we can still try our best. I say that God cannot expect any more from us than to try our best.

So far I am sure everyone agrees. We are using some extreme examples here. So then the question is, is it wise to neglect the aid of the needy? I am really saying that there are some people who have developed to the point that they hear that true small still voice within. And over time these people know it is accurate. In such extreme cases such as helping a starving African, they do know that individuals needs. Yet these superhuman are small in number. I am 100% for helping the starving. I have made many donations to these organizations. Yet that is no excuse for not thinking and trying your best to be responsible.

For most people, they may not be so in touch with their Divine aspect so as to know the answers to these extreme examples. But there are many examples that even the average person can see. In all cases they do the best they can.

Don't we all agree on this?

Paul

[qbeac]

Hi pmlonline, I do agree with many of the things you say, for instance, that we should try to do our best, we should try to be responsible, etc. That theory is perfect, I don’t think any good will person could deny it. But, beyond the theory lies a very simple and practical question right now:

Should we or should we not provide global proof to the scientific community?

There are only two options now (year 2005):

1) We should provide proof.
2) We should not provide proof.

In my case I am trying to find out which one is the best option, the best for all humanity. That’s my intention. I personally believe we should try to provide proof now (for many reasons), but after this conversation and the things you have been explaining, and since I am only a human being and I have doubts about things, I would like to be as sure as possible I am not making a mistake.

Therefore, I would like to know if you or any other human being, are totally sure that we should not provide proof now. But, ok, let’s not put it in absolute terms, since that may be asking too much for us humans. So, let me put it this way:

How sure are you that the best option is number 2? You don’t have any doubts about it whatsoever, or you do?

Thanks. qbeac.

[lkjewr]

I give up Paul. You win.

Please read the book The Disappearance of the Universe, and then A Course in Miracles.

[Apex]

Do your study, qbeac. Any results you obtain will be found by those who need it.

[pmlonline]

lkjewr,

Aren't we all winners?! BTW, what about questions 1-4? I know some of the examples were extremes, but I was under the impression that our own discussion was about not holding back any information.

>>>

1. Do you think the U.S. should share with all terrorists the exact details how to build a nuclear missle?
2. Hypothetically, lets say there are extraterrestrials visiting and watch Earth. If such aliens possessed the knowledge how to build an Anti-Matter bomb that could blow up the entire planet Earth, then should those extraterrestrials share that knowledge to humanity on Earth?
3. Should all the teachers in schools and colleges give the students all the answers to the tests and exams?
4. Should be put video cameras in everyone's bedrooms so we can all watch couples be intimate? What about children, should they have the right to learn what sex looks like? After all, "what it looks like" is information.

[pmlonline]

Should we or should we not provide global proof to the scientific community?

There are only two options now (year 2005):

1) We should provide proof.
2) We should not provide proof.

It's good to see your question as it clearly shows responsibility. It's easy and perhaps lazy for one to just assume everyone could benefit from information. With the Internet, people may begin to believe that an open book is good for all. What about extraterrestrials? A lot of people believe in them, but ask why don't they just land in front of the white house and prove it to everyone??? Here's perhaps a poor analogy -> Janet has the sweetest kitten. And every time Janet goes to the kitchen, her kitten, which she dearly loves, meows the most pitiful cry for some milk. Yet as we know, most cats cannot digest the lactose in cow's milk and often makes them feel sick. For Janet, it is so difficult to not give her kitten some milk, but she does. So is that out of the goodness of Janet's heart? I would suggest that giving the milk was the easy thing to do. So with humanity in totality is begging for more information. Our elder brothers want more than anything to give us what we want. As difficult as this is to believe, they cannot give us everything and they restrain out of the goodness of their heart. That is concept that most seem to have difficulty with.

The answer to your question is difficult because it is truly a personal question. There is no absolute answer. I do not know your Souls vision for your life. That is information that your Soul does not give out to just anyone. The best way to find that personal answer would be through mediations.

Will you be able to provide such forceful, convincing, hardcore proof that no scientists could deny it? Not anytime soon, and I firmly believe that. My guess is that it won't happen till 20 years, possibly as soon as 10 years.

Would I personally make an attempt? No, because there are so many other areas to help humanity and the world. I don't like the karma associated with sitting in a chair or table and using what many would call a gift of projection for the purpose of proving it to a group of people. That is not the Divine path.

Perhaps a more balanced solution is to spend time gathering all the present information and tests regarding the projection of consciousness. You could compile all that information into one big project. Trust me, it would be no easy task as there's tons of information spanning decades.

Paul

The divine path is not something that can easily be explained either, there are many roads which lead to many places, and everyone is different. Each persons divine path is his own I believe.

Paul, you did not respond to one of my earlier posts, but I am assuming that's because it's written very badly. I wasn't fully awake during that, but the point I was trying to make was karma isn't something so simple. Divine beings do, in fact, rule over karma in certain planes. They don't sit on thrones as you say but they are, in fact, parts of the universe. The same is actually true of archangels. Energy, in my own opinion, is energy. It comes from things and from interaction with things. I know you have your own belief on this, but this is mine. Everyone's beliefs are, in fact, different. This is one thing that makes karma so difficult to understand for some people.

As to the original question of the thread, here is what I have seen happen, because as I stated before, these tests have allready been done. They have also been made public and anyone can go to a search engine and find writings on these tests. It's quite simple, simply type in "astral projection research."

People have the freedom to pick and choose what comes into thier life most of the time. A big announcement that these things are real would, I believe, not change too much. People would take the information in stride, but few would apply the information to thier own lives. All that would change is a small belief structure "OBE's are in fact real, but I can't and won't do them," would be the train of thought for people who, as you said, "are not ready."

[Tombo]

[quote=Tombo]

Also I want to add that if something is destructive or constructive is a very subjective thing. It depends an the system bounderies, the time span, the believe system of the person etc.

For example: Killing cancer cells in a body is destructive if viewed from the cell perspective. For the human perspective it is constructive (Human cured of cancer.

However the human benefits from this, it's still destructive. You don't cure the human, you merely destroy the problem at hand.



This depends on the view point, lets say I kill the cells by Radiation. I could say I create Radiation. Or we could go even further back in the cause-effect-chain. First I Have a thought/ Intent "heal the cancer patient"
constructive I would say. It all subjectice. Whats your proposal anyway. If you cure somebody from cancer you gain bad Karma. :?


[quote:3oor9qiv]It's irrelevant who you kill. You killed. If Karma is a fact, then you should not worry about your neighbour getting what he deserves, since eventualy, he'll get it.

I kill somebody and save 100, still bad? Lets say it don't do something but if I would I could save hundreds just by injuring one person. Do you really believe it generates better Karma if I don't move a finger? Our law thinks different, omited help in certain situations is a crime.

[
quote]
What I wanna say is, that it all depends on the viewpoint. There is no construction or destruction per se. On the other side if you just look at the intention of an action, like Buddha, things get a lot more simple.


I'm sure that in a (from my viewpoint) sick way, Hitler's intention was to create a perfect world. He merely had to kill a few human cancer cells, but that was ok from his viewpoint.[/quote:3oor9qiv]

I strongly doubt his mind was in a peacefully, loving mood filled with kindness when he ordered to kill them.



The problem with intention, is that it is again subject to viewpoints. A 'Good Intention' or a 'Bad Intention' depends on the majority of the people judging it. While that seems to be what you would want, it also depends on what that majority has learned/come to belief. Intention based Karma would be rather useless. That would make only the leaders responsable, since the followers did so in the best intention and offcourse without questioning, as a good follower should.[/quote:3oor9qiv]

This is not so easy to explain and actually I don't wanna defend the Buddhistic Karma-concept too much because as I said I rather base my understanding of the world on my own experiences.
For example you see that action also is included in this concept, I merely touched the subject, I do NOT have I full understanding of the Karma-concept in Buddhism!

Here is a detailed explanation of Karma in Buddhism: Haven't read it though.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm




Regards,

Tom

[Tombo]

3. World maybe the Souls incarnated in Africa because they wanna starve! I can not accept that my heart says NO!



Considder the human soul, in the sence where it remains after you day, to incarnate again in another body. Considder human nature, always growing, expanding, learning, surviving.

If there where to be young souls, and older souls, it would make sence that they choose a certain life consiously in advance, to learn (experience) certain factors of what human life means.

Possible, but we have to be careful with this understanding. Suffering = Progress, I really think we have to be carefull here. what kind of progress? It is possible but as I said it is just a believe.



Other then that I find the statement that Africa equals starvation rather narrow minded: Western Civ. doesnt dicate what a good or a bad life is, what good living conditions vs bad ones are. I'm sure everybody who has experienced hunger agrees that you shouldn't have to in a world like this. On the other hand, it makes you appreciate what you have even more.

I agree, you missunderstood me, I do NOT equal Africa with starvation. Truth is that thousands of children starve there every day though. Probably because of the western world I might add.


The problem is, this sounds all like I don't care, which isn't so: I admit that I cannot think of a good reason why people should experience hunger, war, etc. But the fact that we cannot think of a good reason doesnt mean there isnt one, nor does it mean that we as humans are able to determine who should/shouldn't be in that situation.

Agreed


If we presume that life doesn't end when you die, but that you reincarnate into a new body, and take the lessons learned with you, in your 'gut instinct', then it isn't a loss of a life anymore, it's only a learning experience.

Maybe so, maybe not, I don't know.

[pmlonline]

Hi,


The divine path is not something that can easily be explained either, there are many roads which lead to many places, and everyone is different. Each persons divine path is his own I believe.
I agree there are countless *paths* to the Divine. There is a difference between *path* and *perspective*. The Divine *perspective* is not different. The Divine is always in unison.




the point I was trying to make was karma isn't something so simple. Divine beings do, in fact, rule over karma in certain planes. They don't sit on thrones as you say but they are, in fact, parts of the universe. The same is actually true of archangels. Energy, in my own opinion, is energy. It comes from things and from interaction with things. I know you have your own belief on this, but this is mine. Everyone's beliefs are, in fact, different. This is one thing that makes karma so difficult to understand for some people.
First we need to agree on the topic. There is a difference between ruling over and actually being something. You say, "Divine beings do, in fact, rule over karma" Then you say, "they are, in fact, parts of the universe." I agree to the prior statement that the Divine does rule over, but I disagree with the later statement that they are karma. Karma is a rule, a law, but not an actual entity or life form as we know it. If for example a superhuman / Initiate or Adept looked at the energy of karma, they would not see any spark or Divine being or even a Soul. As you may know, the divine spark within any being is within a Soul. It is a very very very complex energy system. When such a superhuman views karma, they see energy, not a complex entity. I mentioned that even the electron has consciousness, but that it is nothing like human consciousness. It is a very simple energy system compared to a Soul. Karma is a law that *all* Divine beings agree to. For example, there is a difference between a U.S. Law and the people who create and enforce that Law. If what you say is true then karma would be the largest and most powerful omni present being in all creation for karma is a rule that applies in all solar systems, all galaxies, all universes, all planes, all cosmic realms, everywhere.
As you may know, energy flows from the higher planes down. It also flows back up, but that energy originates from above. It is our Divine, from above that binds the universe. That may sound like the movie "Star Wars", but it is what I am taught by my teachers. The above (higher in vibration) created the lower. It sustains the lower planes and all things there. It created the rules. Karma just happens to be one of those rules, a vitally important rule, just as on the physical plane there is a rule of electric charge. So what is the rule? As you know, it is Cause & Effect. That is, when something changes, then there will be a *guaranteed* effect. The key word is *guaranteed.* The guarantee is the law. So in that sense perhaps we agree, no?




As to the original question of the thread, here is what I have seen happen, because as I stated before, these tests have allready been done. They have also been made public and anyone can go to a search engine and find writings on these tests. It's quite simple, simply type in "astral projection research."
I am not sure it is so simple. Such an Internet search will yield but a very very small fraction of OBE tests and research. It goes far beyond Internet searching. The person will need to find contacts and get information from them, more leads. Contact various universities. Contact television stations that aired various research shows. I once saw a very convincing t.v. show on a OBE projection test about, oh, 30 years ago at least.



People have the freedom to pick and choose what comes into thier life most of the time. A big announcement that these things are real would, I believe, not change too much. People would take the information in stride, but few would apply the information to thier own lives. All that would change is a small belief structure "OBE's are in fact real, but I can't and won't do them," would be the train of thought for people who, as you said, "are not ready."Please read one of my previous posts ->

Back to proof, as you said there are people who will not believe. Yet that does not mean that can be forced to believe. Everyone has a threshold. As mentioned in a previous post, if the 100 scientists had hard-core proof and went on national t.v. shows around the world then they could convince most people. Everyone has a threshold, and if an extraterrestrial wanted, they could fly down and prove their existence to *any* sane person. Do you know anyone that could deny that? If an extraterrestrial flew down to the capital of your country and then went to your street and allowed you to touch the saucer, and go inside, and talk with these beings, and even allowed you to fly inside, then what? Lets say you asked to be flown to your friends house, you got out and knocked on his or her door. Then what? Lets say for the next 10 years this extraterrestrial agreed to be your personal escort and fly you anywhere you wanted day or night. Would that convince you or anyone else in such a case?

There is no such thing as total Freedom for the lower self. The Divine created your lower-self. That is why suicide is one of the greatest sins because it is not our body nor is it our right to kill it. The divine created and sustains every moment you live. Even OBE's are not total freedom. When a person gets yanked back into their physical body, it is the higher self doing that. It protects you. Without these higher forces projectors would be killed and possessed by negative entities. This is no guarantee it will not happen. The lower cannot truly see from a Divine perspective, so we cannot say what is best for each person. We can only *try* to see from the Divine.
Often the time of our physical death is a destined moment. That is, when you experience certain things, then it is time to go home. It is often our Divine self that makes that decision since it created the lower. I am merely talking in terms of lower and divine self. I would agree that we are one being, that the lower, higher & divine are one. Yet in that sense, we cannot stop there. That is, truly all things in all creation are one.
The point is, no personality has total freedom. Freedom is earned. BTW, my definition of personality is the lower self.

Paul

[Tombo]

I try to see from a more Divine perspective.

How do you do that?


But I use it everyday. It is the law of Cause & Effect. I know that if I do something negative to a person then that energy which I created, karma, will reflect back on myself. I can easily see this through out my life. I reap what I sew. Karma does care about relativity. It is energy. It is beyond time and space. As example, if someone tortures another being, then that person one day in this or another life will see a reflection of that energy. The law of cause and effect doesn't care how you perceive that reflection / effect in your life. You can only know that you will see an equal and opposite reaction. How you interpret that reaction is up to you. It is your choice to perceive anything as pleasure or even pain.

Ok, now I understand you better. I actually agree with that. very well said. But I still can not comprehend how you shall know if providing proof to the scientific community is a bad thing. I agree with qbeac here. Only God or a enlighted being could know that, I would say. I simply can not see how we should be able to determine if such a thing would be good or bad.





It is true that the Wheel of Life never ends, but it does for an individual. I know for certain, with all my being, that Buddha did not say what you claim. Buddha knew that all things evolved and to suggest that any *actual* being will always reincarnate for eternity is a contradiction to that because that actual being will eventually evolve beyond the physical plane.

Yes it will evolve beyond the physical plane but sooner or later it will reappear in lower world. What I learned Buddha said was basically:

As long as I being has attachement to anything it will reappear (in different planes depending on the Karma) but no matter where it appears it will suffer again sooner or later as long as attachment is there.
Do you agree with that?


But this again is based outside of personal proof. Again, I am suggesting personal proof. I have my personal proof. I know that if I had some magic pill or device that could instantly give you all my proof that one day in your future, say a billion years from now, you will have not wanted me to do that! I nor anyone has the right to take the experience of your self discovery away from you.

Ok I agree with you but I think it is not possible. You can not give me your experience either I experience it or not. You can not explain me "Being in Love" . either I experienced it for my self or else I not know it really. So wouldn't you say it is impossible to take the experience of self discovery away from me :? :? :? :? :? :?


I have my own OBE experiences and tests I've performed. I have met superhumans. Perhaps you have, but that is your own personal information. I chose not to write a book and sell it. Just to merely make a few posts here and there. Yet that will change one day. Perhaps one day soon it may be my time to tell it. I doubt is since I was told my present life is one of observation. Many people reincarnated with the previous intent to become a world known teacher. Maybe you will become such a teacher one day.

First agin I would like to know where you have that knowledge from. You seem to know all this secret things :) I will become I teacher! at least I will teach physics :)



Once again, personal proof. That is where your answers are.


Ok that sounds good to me.



It is not my will or right that you accept but that you consider and do your best. My finger is pointing to self-proof. It may take 5 or more years, but so what. That's not too bad for most.

Ok thats a good advice.


Over time you learn what is more stable and predictable. Same goes with OBE's. Over time a person not only will learn what's real but even how to see without creating one's own illusionary world.

How do i learn that?

[pmlonline]

I try to see from a more Divine perspective.
How do you do that?
Well, key word was *try.* The more you try, the closer you'll eventually get. Anyone can try simply by self-control from the Mind. This would include control over the beast within, which is ones own self demons; i.e., the emotions. Also control over the physical body along with daily self contemplation, mediations, and even visualization exercises. This will eventually in one life time bring liberation which links the lower and higher self. When the lower & higher self truly become one, then you could say that person is a superhuman.
That is step 1 of 2. Step 2 is the process of the lower & higher become one with the Divine self.




Ok, now I understand you better. I actually agree with that. very well said. But I still can not comprehend how you shall know if providing proof to the scientific community is a bad thing. I agree with qbeac here. Only God or a enlighted being could know that, I would say. I simply can not see how we should be able to determine if such a thing would be good or bad.
I agree that you cannot know, but the key words were "try your best." That is all God can expect from you.




Yes it will evolve beyond the physical plane but sooner or later it will reappear in lower world. What I learned Buddha said was basically:

As long as I being has attachement to anything it will reappear (in different planes depending on the Karma) but no matter where it appears it will suffer again sooner or later as long as attachment is there.
Do you agree with that?
Yes, attachment will keep you in the reincarnation cycle. A liberated being does not have any physical attachments, which is why such a being does not have to reincarnate.

You said, "sooner or later it will reappear in lower world." That part I disagree with. Evolution is always an upward spiral. It is not an endless circle. From a material perspective it may appear as a circle. There are always higher planes. When you become liberated, you will eventually no longer reincarnate. There you will move to the great mental realms which are more vast than you and I can comprehend. These mental realms btw exist everywhere as your mental unit generates waves in these high planes. Yet, these vast cities in even the lowest mental realm begin at the outer edge of our physical universe. Albeit, the mental body may travel from the end of our universe to here within about ~10 seconds depending how far out in these realms you are.
After mental realms exists yet another, and then another and another and then another. All of these 7 planes or realms consist of just one Cosmic plane. When you reach the 7th, then there is a major graduation to the lowest plane in the next Cosmic plane. This is already far far more than we can imagine, but there are 7 Cosmic planes and within each Cosmic plane are seven planes. Beyond this point, the highest Cosmic plane, is unknown to almost all beings on this side. Think of it this way. Most people on Earth wonder what it's like beyond physical death. Ok, a superhuman knows what it is like beyond physical death. Yet, even most superhumans on Earth do not know what it is like even beyond *our* Cosmic plane much less the next Cosmic plane. Yet, there are beings so spiritually evolved that have reached the next highest Cosmic plane. These beings are so beyond our comprehension it makes my head spin. Yet, even these beings for the most part do not know what is beyond the highest Cosmic plane. To them, that is a boundary just like the physical plane is the boundary to most Earth humans. They know about its existence, but they don't know all that much. They know that every so often a group consciousness, which consists of 1000's of enlightened beings (beings far beyond Buddha), will become one entire spark of light, a pillar of light you could say. Then this incredible pillar of light ascends beyond the highest Cosmic plane. I am told that to date no such pillar of light has even come back. You could say that it is an incredible change.

The point is, at least as far as I'm told, there's no endless evolutionary cycle. It is an upward spiral.




Ok I agree with you but I think it is not possible. You can not give me your experience either I experience it or not. You can not explain me "Being in Love" . either I experienced it for my self or else I not know it really. So wouldn't you say it is impossible to take the experience of self discovery away from me :? :? :? :? :? :?
What I was trying to say was that even your beliefs can be forced to change presuming you have a working sane mind. This is due to the reason that everyone has a threshold. If an extraterrestrial landed in someone's front yard and offered to spend the next 10 years proving their existence, then surely they will succeed. Such an extraterrestrial could apply great mental, emotional, and even physical proof that any sane person could not deny.
What's being taken away from you are your beliefs. Even though a particular person may not benefit from such beliefs at the moment, it is possible for a more power being to take those away from you. This is all surrounding the idea that even the top 100 scientists of the world could persuade nearly everyone to believe in a truth. So if a person did not believe in OBE's, and if say the top 100 scientists in the world had hardcore proof, then the beliefs of a lot of people will change.





Over time you learn what is more stable and predictable. Same goes with OBE's. Over time a person not only will learn what's real but even how to see without creating one's own illusionary world.

How do i learn that?
Stability comes with experience / time. For example, a newborn baby just entered this new outside world. It is new, so over time things become familiar. First the baby needs to learn how to interpret what it sees. Oh it can see light, but it may look at a candle flame and see a monster. Same goes with any plane. The more you consciously travel and experience the Etheric and astral planes the more it will become real and stable to you. For most people, projections are not much more than a self created world. The astral is dominated by a completely different set of universal laws than the physical. It is made of matter / energy that is far finer and higher in intrinsic vibrational rate. You may be out of body fully conscious, but staring at your faucet. Yet in your own mind, you believe you are standing before Niagara waterfall. With some focus you'll learn to snap out of it. Over time you'll learn to focus in the present time line that your material body is in.

Paul

[Chris]

Well, key word was *try.* The more you try, the closer you'll eventually get. Anyone can try simply by self-control from the Mind. This would include control over the beast within, which is ones own self demons; i.e., the emotions. Also control over the physical body along with daily self contemplation, mediations, and even visualization exercises. This will eventually in one life time bring liberation which links the lower and higher self. When the lower & higher self truly become one, then you could say that person is a superhuman.
That is step 1 of 2. Step 2 is the process of the lower & higher become one with the Divine self.


Do you believe the methods you mention above would bring a person closer irregardless of belief system? Or would only a certain set of beliefs bring progress, and if so, which ones?
I ask this as there are many people who do not believe in Karma to the extent you do, and yet they meditate and do a variety of techniques which ensure control of the mind daily. Either they are deluding themselves, and are not getting closer to the divine (even if they feel and believe they are) or their lack of true belief in Karma (and other belief systems) seems in no way detrimental to their spiritual development.

[pmlonline]

Yet, these vast cities in even the lowest mental realm begin at the outer edge of our physical universe.Actually I should say that the outer edge of our physical universe is the beginning of the spiritual realms, which would begin in the abstract mental realms. If I recall, that is correct. It's been a long time since I was taught that, so I'm not exactly sure.


Chris,
I don't think people need to believe in karma as I do, but as long as they understand the basic law of cause and effect. That is, you reap what you sew. In other words, it's unhealthy to disregard basic universal laws. Take for example citizens. What if the citizens of a country suddenly disregarded all the laws. They ran traffic lights, etc. What a disaster. This is perhaps a poor example since most people who practice things as mediations do believe in cause & effect.

You say most people here don't believe in karma as I do, but my definition of karma is really simple. That is, it is the law of cause & effect. How complex that law is depends on what example you want to use. As with any law, it can be as difficult as your example.

You said, "there are many people who do not believe in Karma to the extent you do, and yet they meditate and do a variety of techniques which ensure control of the mind daily. Either they are deluding themselves, and are not getting closer to the divine" I would have to disagree with that. The improvement is there even though they may not be able to sense it. A person usually makes fast improvement until they reach their normal growth level as left off in previous existence before birth. So, the person may sense such fast growth and then all of a sudden everything comes to a halt and they believe they are making no headway. Regardless what they sense, they are still making headway. It may not be the fast growth that they initially made, but it is still growth nevertheless.

As you know, in life there are countless dips and rises. One day they might fall a little, or perhaps for even a few years. If they keep up the good work, things will eventually get better either in this or a future life.

Personally I find it difficult to understand why people would want to give up such good work as meditations. Even if they fail to believe the fact that it is improving their entire system from physical to spiritual, then they should at least do it for physical & emotional benefits. There's a lot of study that clearly shows mediation helps reduce stress, which in turn is a great aid to the body. That's just one of many benefits of meditations.



Do you believe the methods you mention above would bring a person closer irregardless of belief system? Or would only a certain set of beliefs bring progress, and if so, which ones?
That's a tough question. As you know, what we believe has such a powerful impact on our future. For example, lets say a physically healthy person goes to the gym several times a week to exercise. Yet at the same time, this person believes they are sick. All day long this persons thinks and thinks about negative thoughts and believes they are dying of something. This causes great stress. By probability, this person will most likely manifest what they believe. Thought is very powerful. It creates bodies in the mental planes that become more complex and powerful as we continue to think about such a thought. Over time these bodies in the mental planes can become so powerful and control our life. People for the most part have no conscious perception what hells they create around them in the astral / emotional & mental planes. The truth is, we are today our past thoughts and feelings.

The answer to your question would be different for each person.


Paul

[CFTraveler]

Spectral Dragon wrote:
People have the freedom to pick and choose what comes into thier life most of the time. A big announcement that these things are real would, I believe, not change too much
I want to put in my last two cents on this: About 2 years ago the Canadian Government made the very public announcement that the science community now were convinced that consciousness existed out of the body, and would conduct research to that effect. That announcement provoked comment for about 2 days and then everyone forgot about it completely. I Googled the info because (as usual I don't remember when exactly the announcement was made and what conclusions they reached) and this is what I found:
I tried to copy the link but it wouldn't let me- the only option was to copy it- so here is the whole article:
(Please ignore at will) :cry:


INTRODUCTION TO HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS
AND EXTENDED REMOTE VIEWING.

GOALS

The goals of this Session are to educate the student in the various definitions and functions of human consciousness and the people in the field, giving the student an understanding of altered states of consciousness, and to provide examples and exercises in remote viewing methods that utilize an altered state of consciousness.
READING LIST:

It is not necessary to read all the books on this list. They are provided as resource materials.

Calvin, William H. (1990). The Cerebral Symphony: Seashore. Bantam Books.

Castaneda, C. (1968). The Teachings of Don Juan - A Yaqui Way of Knowledge. New York: Ballantine.

Csikszentmihalyi, Mihaly. (1996). Creativity: Flow and the Psychology of Discovery and Invention Harper Collins.

Csikszentmihalyi, Mihaly (1990). Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience. Harper and Rowe

Dennett, Daniel (1991). Consciousness Explained. Little, Brown and Company.

Edwards, Betty. (1979). Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain. J.P. Tarcher.

Gazzaniga, Michael S. (1988). Mind Matters. Houghton Mifflin.

Graff, Dale. (1998). Tracks in the Psychic Wilderness: An Exploration of ESP, Remote Viewing, Precognitive Dreaming and Synchronicity. Element Books.

Green. C. (1968). Out-of-the-Body Experiences. Proceedings of the Institute of Psychophysical Research. Vol. II. Oxford, England.

Hamptden-Turner, Charles. (1981). Maps of the Mind: Charts and Concepts of the Mind and its Labyrinths. Macmillan Publishing.


James, Julian. (1976). The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. Houghton Mifflin Company.

Mead, G.H. (1934), Mind, Self and Society, Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Monroe, Robert. (1971). Journeys Out of the Body. Dolphin Doubleday.

Monroe, R.A. (1985). Far Journeys. Garden City, NY: Doubleday.

Muldoon, S., & Carrington, H. (1969). The Phenomena of Astral Projection. London: Rider & Company.

Orloff , Judith. (1996). Second Sight. Warner Books.

Ornstein, R. (1977), The Psychology of Consciousness, 2nd. ed. New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich

Radin, Dean. (1997). The Conscious Universe: The Scientific Truth of Psychic Phenomena. Harper Collins.

Ring, K. (1984). Heading Towards Omega. New York: William Morrow.

Swann, I. (1993). Everybody's Guide to Natural ESP. Los Angeles: Tarcher.

Swann, I. (1977). To Kiss Earth Goodbye. NY: Dell.

Tart, Charles. (1972) Altered States of Consciousness. Doubleday Anchor Books.

Thompson Smith, Angela. (1999). Remote Perceptions: Out-of-Body Experiences, Remote Viewing, and other Normal Abilities. Hampton Roads Publishing Company.

Ullman, M., Krippner, S., & Vaughan, A. (1973). Dream Telepathy, New York, Macmillan.

Valle, Ronald S. & von Eckartsberg, Rolf. (1989). Metaphors of Consciousness. Plenum Press.

Watson. L. (1974).The Romeo Error. London: Coronet Books.

Wilson, C. (1975). Strange Powers. London: Abacus.









RESOURCES

VIDEO AND AUDIO TAPE LIST

RV002- The power of ten. Stephen Schwart.

RV007- The Mental Access Window (MAW). Jack Houck

RV010- Banquet Address: Learning to use ESP. Charles Tart

RV019- What do the brains of remote viewers look like? Azra Simonetti

Year 2000 Remote Viewing Conference: Mesquite, NV. Prices and availability can be obtained from CogniSense, Inc., POB 4473, Grand Junction, CO 81502-4473.
Tel: 970-257-1246. Fax: 970-257-1248. Email: cognisense@aol.com

AUDIO CD LIST

Stephan Schwartz has produced an excellent audio CD, Remote Viewing, for the remote viewer who is exploring the world of RV beyond (or before) Controlled Remote Viewing (CRV). If you are looking for instruction in CRV, this is not it, but if you are wanting to investigate earlier methods of remote viewing you will find this audio CD explanatory and concise. Stephan Schwartz writes:
"Remote viewing is a discipline. A particular process proven to provide accurate information about the future as well as information about persons, places, and events which aught to be unknown because the information is unavailable to normal sense awareness.
The exercises on this CD are simple, yet profound. They will teach you how to master the skills necessary to access that part of your mind that can move in time and space. The exercises can be done either in real time or precognitively."
Schwart's CD takes just over an hour to listen to and is divided up into 13 tracks. I listened right through but you might want to divide your listening time into segments, as there is so much material to digest on this disk.
Remote Viewing begins with segments on what is remote viewing, how to remote view and information about targets, that are extremely important for anybody developing a target pool, particularly for ARV, tracks on when to do your session, discussing sidereal time, geomagnetic and solar effects that are invaluable to the viewer, especially web site information (urls) where the viewer can access current information on environmental conditions that might affect remote viewing.

Schwartz describes remote viewing but does not cover the detailed protocols of Controlled Remote Viewing, focusing instead on successful methods that were formulated at SRI and within his research and applications group, Moebius. Next, follow tracks on judging, analysis and feedback. One problem, that I have, is that Schwartz is an advocate of human judging. Human judging has been found to have problems if not handled well by trained and objective judges. He covers feedback and how to deal with problems that are encountered in remote viewing. In the judging session, Schwartz offers mathematical suggestions for computing your RV success. However, these might be beyond the average person and the use of software stats tools such as Excel or SPSS might be of more benefit to the beginning viewer. However, it is worth giving Stephan's formulations a try.
Following, on the CD, is a hands-on section containing a meditation and four different experiential protocols that are led by Stephan Schwartz. First Stephan leads the listener through a location protocol, then an object protocol. Thirdly, he takes the viewer through an out-bound protocol, and lastly an intuitive diagnosis protocol. The CD, Remote Viewing, can be purchased alone or with the companion book Through Time and Space by Stephan Schwartz.
http://www.stephanaschwartz.com/home.htm
Overall, this is an excellent audio CD and includes much of the knowledge that Stephan Schwartz has gained over his many years of research and applications - an excellent resource for your RV audio library!

CONSCIOUSNESS AND
ALTERED STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS

HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS

One of the earliest references to consciousness was William James' "function of knowing". and descriptive definitions of consciousness have been given by Margaret Mead (social origins of individual consciousness), by Duval and Wicklund; (objective self-awareness), by Natsoulas’:
seven definitions of consciousness, and Baruss; who has given us a further twenty-nine definitions!

Natsoulas’s 7 Definitions are as follows:

Consciousness 1: Joint or Mutual Knowledge “a shared, social awareness, a mutual knowledge about the world.�, such as a group of individuals “consciousness raising about some social issue.

Consciousness 2: Internal Knowledge or Conviction. It is derived from Margaret Mead’s Theory of Social Origins of Individual Consciousness and Duval and Wickland’s Theory of Objective Self Awareness. Consciousness 2 is the ability to see ourselves as other see us or objective self-awareness, such as the ability to observe our own selves when we are learning a new skill.

Consciousness 3: Awareness. Is the ability to be mentally consciousness of anything either Internal (Imaginal) or External (Perceptual)

Consciousness 4: Direct Awareness. A philosophical concept which includes introspection of one’s own self and one’s internal states.


Consciousness 5: Personal Unity encompasses the sum of our conscious processes “a totality of the sum of our internal subjective processes such as impressions, thoughts, and feelings. It is a self-regulating system.

Consciousness 6: The Normal Waking State. Consists of the daily ebb and flow that includes various levels of consciousness. It is person specific and subject to both internal and external influence.

Consciousness 7: Double Consciousness. Can be observed in mental states that encompass Out-of-Body Experiences, multiple personality, hypnosis, and in self-deception. The consciousness researcher Sperry suggested a bilateral, hemispheric organization of consciousness, that a separate consciousness exists in each cerebral hemisphere of the brain. Philosopher Jaynes wrote that up to 3000 years ago humans existed in a state of cerebral disconnectedness, that is that the two hemispheres of the brain acted independently. He thought that the “voices of the gods� that the ancients heard, were actually the left hemisphere “hearing the right hemisphere as an abstract, disembodied entity. Jaynes sees dual consciousness as a vestige of this early bi-cameral mind. Double consciousness is of special interest to us in this Module as we consider remote viewing methods that utilize an altered state of consciousness.

EXERCISE

What is your definition of “consciousness?� Write it down. Give personal examples of Consciousness 1 through Consciousness 7.

THE STUDY OF CONSCIOUSNESS

During the end of the last century consciousness was considered to be the undisputed subject matter of classical psychology which, at that time, considered sense-data (sensory manifestations of consciousness) to be the foundation of all mental life. This paradigm existed until a taboo on introspection led psychologists to abandon consciousness as the subject of psychology in favor of research into behavior.

Behaviorism is a radical form of objective psychology in which all references to introspection and consciousness are rejected in favor of a discussion of physiologically relevant events, primarily in terms of stimulus and response. The Behaviorists believed that “If it cannot be measured, it does not exist.�

Two separate schools of thought have emerged: the Monist school which states that mind and matter are the same i.e. the mind is just the functioning of the brain, and the Dualist school, that sees consciousness (mind) and matter (body and brain) as separate and able to exist independently of each other.

Other theories have been viewed consciousness from several perspectives: as an evolutionary or developmental process (Jaynes); as being a product of language development (LeDoux, Wilson & Gazzaniga); and a function of the divided brain (Ornstein).

Lyall Watson, in Gifts of Unknown Things, offers some interesting insights into the factor we call consciousness. He claims that consciousness is an unmeasurable something associated with the brain but which is not the brain. Watson likens the relationship of consciousness with matter as light to matter. Matter can influence the motion of light and, he feels, that somehow the same process is implicated when considering matter and consciousness. Maybe there is a reciprocal interaction between matter and consciousness. Body and mind may be able to separate and affect each other in subtle ways.

There is no lack of theory to explain consciousness. However, the theories that are available are diffuse and orthogonal, and there seems to be little common bond between them. What may be needed is an integrative key which will clarify their differences and combine their advantages. After decades of deliberate neglect, consciousness is once again coming under scientific scrutiny and discussions on the topic are now appearing in respected psychology and medical literature. Researchers such as Baars, Baruss and Natsoulas are bringing consciousness back into repute in a field that has long denied consciousness as a valid topic for investigation. Subscribe to the Journal of Consciousness Studies for up to date peer-reviewed articles and papers on human consciousness. Their web site can be located at http://www.imprint.co.uk/jcs.html.

SOME FUNCTIONS OF CONSCIOUSNESS

It is an information-processing system.

It is a decision-making tool.

It gives us a sense of identity and participation.

It processes intentionality.

It is a survival tool.

It is a learning tool.

It helps us select between alternatives, and

It helps us plan for the future.

What you wrote down as your definition of consciousness, was probably correct. Any definition of consciousness cannot provide an adequate description of total consciousness, nor can it address the problem that consciousness is, in essence, an individual phenomenon and suffers the same problems of definition as emotional concepts such as love and hate. Maybe, because of the personal and individual nature of consciousness, a precise and consistent definition of consciousness may not be possible.




ALTERED STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS


Dr. Charles Tart describes an altered state of consciousness as any change in our state of consciousness. He has defined an “altered state of consciousness� as the following:

“An altered state of consciousness for any given individual is one in which he or she clearly feels a qualitative shift in his or her pattern of mental functioning i.e. more or less alert, more or less visual imagery, sharper, fuller, etc.�

PROTOCONSCIOUS STATES

These following altered states of consciousness: hypnosis, hypnogogic and hypnopompic states are streams of consciousness that persist around the clock. They are all defined under the umbrella of Protoconscious States. Some of the more common altered states of consciousness are:

Dreaming: Is the most common state of altered consciousness. Lucid dreaming, where consciousness briefly intrudes upon the unconscious process is an interesting component of dreams. Some research groups believe that lucid dreaming can be purposefully induced.

Meditation: Is the purposeful stilling of the body and mind to bring about a relaxed, peaceful and insightful state.

Daydreaming: Occur when the mind shifts to another state of consciousness during waking hours that allow visual imagery and imagination to create fantasies in the mind.

Hypnosis: Hypnosis is not one altered state of consciousness but a wide range of altered states. Hypnosis is able to access areas of consciousness not normally available during normal, waking consciousness.

Hypnogogic States: Just prior to falling asleep the mind slips into a state of intense visual imagery. The body is often in a state of paralysis. The visual imagery can take the form of cartoon characters, faces, places, or people unknown to the dreamer. The dreamer may suddenly awake from this state with a jump or jolt. Some hypnogogic states include hearing sounds or voices.

Hypnopompic States: As an individual is waking from sleep the opposite of hypnogogic imagery may occur. A person may feel awake and yet realize they were still dreaming. Another common occurrence during hypnopompic states is “false awakening� whereby a person thinks that they wake up and go about their morning routines, only to awaken to realize that they were dreaming.

EXERCISE

Describe a dream where you became lucid and were aware that you were dreaming. Describe what you did in the dream once you realized that it was a lucid dream.


ULTRADIAN RHYTHMS

Just as a normal sleep pattern includes 90 minute oscillations between light and deep sleep, these cycles occur throughout the day, too. There are times during the day when you feel really alert and other times when you feel like you could use a nap! Ultradian rhythms are short, psychological fluctuations that occur during our waking hours. Day-dreaming for example, could be the day-time equivalent of lucid dreaming at night.

EXERCISE

You can take advantage of Ultradian Rhythms to plot the times of day when you are your most productive. Make a graph that plots your level of consciousness, on the left side of the graph, from super alert (10) at the top, to “have to take a nap�(1) at the bottom. Along the bottom of the graph, plot 15 minute intervals. Throughout the day assess your state of consciousness and mark it on the graph. See how you become more alert as you wake up, and then see how your rhythms fluctuate throughout the day and evening.

HUMAN PHYSIOLOGY

What happens to the body during an altered state of consciousness? Generally, the body switches to an automatic or autonomic mode of functioning - a sort of “automatic pilot� mode. The brain often switches to a predominantly right-hemisphere dominant mode. That is the right hemisphere has more activity taking place during an altered state of consciousness. Two researchers Fromm and Shor found that left brain hemisphere activity usually predominates during normal consciousness and the right during altered states of consciousness.

EXERCISE

Write down an example of an altered state of consciousness that you have experienced.

PSI (PARANORMAL ACTIVITY) AND CONSCIOUSNESS

The idea that an altered state of consciousness can aid the retrieval of information is not new. Modern researchers have noted that optimal effects may be linked to certain mental states and some interesting correlations have been noted by Ullman, Krippner & Vaughan; Honorton; Braud & Braud; Stanford & Mayer; Child; and Glickson. Meditation, dreaming, hypnosis, and mental imagery are some of the ways that have fostered the ability to access hidden information. Anecdotal accounts of apparent paranormal phenomena recur frequently in the early literature of hypnosis and meditation. Similarly, in traditional meditation texts, psi effects or siddhis were claimed to be natural by-products of a state of abstraction in which there is a diminution of ego-boundaries and self-object differentiation.


Sleep is the most common altered state of consciousness and dreaming the most frequently reported mediator of spontaneous paranormal responses. Dream studies, in which sleeping subjects were able to retrieve information sent to them during the night by a "sender", were conducted at the Maimonides Medical Center Sleep Laboratory in the 1970's.

Historically ascetics, shamans, and hermits sought out solitude and there are reports of these individuals experiencing what we now call OBEs. Isolation tanks and other means of perceptual isolation have superseded the hermit's cell and altered state experiences continue to be reported.

It is generally accepted in the parapsychological community that altered states of consciousness may facilitate access to hidden information, although some of the military CRV remote viewers, such as Lyn Buchanan, claim that their methods do not require an altered state of consciousness.

REMOTE VIEWING

As mentioned, the earliest written reference to remote viewing can be found in an IEEE 1976 paper written in 1976 by Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ and entitled “A Perceptual Channel for Information Transfer over Kilometer Distances. They wrote:

“As observed in the laboratory, the basic phenomenon appears to cover a range of subjective experiences variously referred to in the literature as autoscopy (in the medical literature); exteriorization or dissociation (psychological literature); simple clairvoyance; traveling clairvoyance or out-of-body experience (parapsychology literature); or astral projection (occult literature). We choose the term “remote viewing� as a neutral descriptive term, free from prior associations and bias as to mechanism.�

EXTENDED REMOTE VIEWING (ERV)

Extended Remote Viewing is another method of remote viewing used to access information about hidden targets. ERV, in its simplest definition, is the access of hidden information using an altered state of consciousness. Extended Remote Viewing or ERV was developed at the Army’s Fort Mead Remote Viewing Unit by F. Holmes (Skip) Atwater. According to Skip Atwater, “Extended�, in this respect, means the length of time that the viewer was in an altered state and accessing the target. Currently, ERV has come to have a generic definition i.e. any remote viewing that is done within a defined protocol, in an altered state of consciousness.
ERV generally requires a Monitor to help the viewer stay in the required state of consciousness and to guide the viewer towards the target. The Monitor’s role is to elicit verbal information from the viewer, keep them on task, helps the viewer maintain the required altered state and, using information already accessed by the viewer, gives the viewer Movement Exercises around the target to access further information. The Monitor does not ask leading questions and is usually "blind" to the identity of the target. Both ERV and CRV can both be carried out, by an experienced viewer, without a Monitor. Joe McMoneagle, in particular, frequently gives live, unmonitored, demonstrations of RV of a very high quality. He does not offer training and has more or less superseded the use of accepted CRV structures, preferring to use his more personal type of remote viewing protocol. Anything that uses a pre-stated methodology and utilizes an altered state of consciousness can be termed ERV.


EXAMPLE

Using an OBE methodology (the Harmony of Opposites) that I had developed, I mentally traveled to a place where it was autumn. I was high up on a hillside surrounded by trees in autumn foliage. I was walking along a dirt path, enjoying the beauty of the leaves. To the left I saw three lakes, two small ones and one large. They made the shape of a fish and I "knew" that the combined lakes were called "Fish Lake". I walked along looking at the hills. Small rivers ran into and out of the three, joined lakes. There was a monument in front of me and I walked up to it. It was a huge stone seat and I realized that it had been made by early people. I thought that the place might be in Canada. The stone seat had mystical, religious significance. The back of the seat was made of one huge stone. I walked behind it and on its back it was carved with religious symbols such as fishes, moons, and stars.

EXERCISE

A good exercise, to gain experience with remote viewing, is to choose an event that has recently occurred, remote view this target, and then watch the news media for further information. First try to actively day-dream. Then direct your consciousness to view a chosen target. (Be ethical and do not intrude on the privacy of others). Record your impressions and try to verify what you saw. You will not always reach your target, it takes time, practice and practice. When you know that you are going to visit a new location remote view it and record your impressions. Later, when you actually visit the location you can check the accuracy of your perceptions. Remember to practice regularly!

REMOTE VIEWING THROUGH THE AUDITORY ROUTE

Even before birth our lives are affected by rhythm. A researcher named Salk was observing apes, when he noticed that the majority of the primate mothers held their infants to the left side of their chest. He wondered if this finding applied to human mothers. Indeed, he found that mothers on a maternity ward also held their babies to the left sides, close to their hearts. This finding was irrespective of the mother’s right or left handedness. Further studies found that:

Babies became accustomed to the heart-beat sound in the womb and could be calmed after birth by hearing the same beat.

Mothers who held their babies to the right, may have a history of a disturbed mother/infant bond. 85-90% of mothers held their babies to the left side and nursed their babies first on the left side.

Babies who heard the heart-beat sound after birth fussed less, gained more weight and had few post-birth problems.

The majority of babies have a right head-turning preference from birth that allows them to face their mothers when they are held by the mother on her left side.

Adults can also be calmed by hearing the heart-beat rhythm.


The heart-beat rhythm is a basis for some Baroque music that has been claimed to have calming effects such as the Pachabel Canon and Vivaldi’s Winter Suite from The Four Seasons. This type of music can be helpful for creating an altered state.

Ancient cultures knew the potential of rhythm and developed instruments that took advantage of “resonant cavities� - caves and kivas - that could amplify the effects of these rhythms on the human neurological system. Recent researchers have examined this effect.
In the fall of 1998, Skip Atwater science director of The Monroe Institute participated in “a unique study of ritual practices� that became part of a documentary film commissioned by The Discovery Channel television network. According to Skip Atwater, their part in the project was reported in an article in The Monroe Institute’s HEMI-SYNC Journal XVII No. 1, Winter, 1999, and was also published in the Journal of Religion and Psychical research, Vol. 22. No. 1., July, 1999. You can access the Monroe Institute at http://www.monroeinstitute.org.

Modern researchers have investigated the power of certain rhythms on the human brain and have developed a term for the effect called “entrainment�. For example, drums beaten at certain rhythms can produce entrainment effects, called “sonic driving�, that can produce an altered state.

Researcher Jack Houck has asked: What if the ability to do remote viewing, PK, and other high performance mental techniques could be induced with high-tech means? Houck says that there is some evidence that there exists a mental access window or MAW, when the predominate frequency of an individual's electro-encephalograph (EEG) measures 7.81 to 7.83 Hz. This is the same frequency range in which slight oscillations in the earth's magnetic field occur, known as the Schumann Resonance.

Houck first learned of this from Dr. Bob Beck when he purchased a simple EEG biofeedback unit from Beck. The unit provided auditory feedback of brain activity to the user. Beck suggested that he and Houck make a recording of an input signal of exactly 7.81 Hz. Houck listened to the EEG unit attached to his head in one ear, while simultaneously listening to the 7.81 Hz recording in the other ear. After a few minutes of relaxing, the two sounds became very similar and then Houck experienced a full-blown OBE. Of the 45 people who have tried the device at this frequency about one-half have reported a full or partial Out-of-Body Experience. Interestingly, Houck found that some people, particularly psychics and geniuses, have strong components of their natural EEG frequency in the MAW range, even in their awake state.

You can read Houck’s paper The Mental Access Window (MAW) in its entirety with illustrations at http://www.tcom.co.uk/npnet/houck2.htm


Another researcher who has investigated the effect of tones and rhythms on the human brain is Robert Monroe. Former businessman Monroe developed the Monroe Institute which now offers seminar programs and audio learning systems on cassette tapes and CDS. They enable others to explore expanded states of awareness through various exercises and techniques, using what they call the Hemi-Sync process. The Hemi-Synch process involves the use of autohypnosis and breathing techniques, imagery, and specifically sequenced stereo sound patterns called “binaural beats� that can assist in creating appropriate brain-wave states. Many people have OBEs as an integral part of their experience while participating in the Hemi-Sync process, although these experiences are not guaranteed. Many of the army remote viewers from the Fort Mead Unit attended the Gateway program at the Institute. The Monroe Institute is located in Faber, Virginia and you can take a virtual tour at their web site at http://www.monroeinstitute.org.

EXAMPLE

A few years ago, I was fortunate to attend a sonic driving workshop with Dr. Ruth Inge Heinz in California. Before the class began Dr. Heinz described sonic driving and then proceeded to gently beat out a rhythm on a copper bowl. The effect was pleasant and relaxing. We lay down in a large room which echoed the rhythms, over and over. At first nothing happened and I decided just to lie and listen to the beats. Suddenly, I “became� an eagle. There was no decision to become a bird - I just felt that I had wings, and talons, and I could fly. I flew over northern spruce woods, following a river, until it ended at a huge waterfall. I flew out over the waterfall, over a scene of snow covered trees and valleys. It was an awesome experience. I flew some more then settled in a tree, grasping the branch with my talons, and ruffling my wings to fold them neatly together. It really felt like I was an eagle!

EXERCISE

Find a pleasant sounding drum or other percussion instrument. Have a colleague or friend gently beat the instrument at between 60-70 beats per minute. The beat needs to be continuous for about 30 minutes. Lie down in a warm, comfortable place and listen to the beat. You need to listen to the beat for at least 20 minutes to allow your brain to entrain to the rhythm. See what your visual imagery produces while listening to the beat.

Alternatively you can obtain a CD of shamanic drumming and listen to that in a comfortable place. Shamanic drumming CDs and tapes have been produced by Michael Harner of the Foundation for Shamanic Studies. Information can be obtained from the Foundation of Shamanic Studies at the World Wide Shamanic Web http://www.shamanism.org/

The World Wide Shamanic Web is the website of Michael Harner and the Foundation for Shamanic Studies. The Foundation can be reached at P.O. Box 1939, Mill Valley, CA 94942. Telephone (415) 380-8282 or email info@shamanicstudies.com. The Foundation’s website contains information about shamanic courses with Michael Harner, membership in the Foundation for Shamanic Studies, and information about books, tapes, and shamanic supplies. Shamanic supplies promoted by the Foundation include eye-masks to cut-out visual distractions, drums and rattles.

“HARMONY OF OPPOSITES� METHOD


Over the years I have come to realize that there are certain conditions under which ERV can be enhanced. There has to be a certain state, a harmony between the body and the mind, I call this the “Harmony of Opposites method� The physical body has to be relaxed and quiet, with no distractions, and the mind has to be conscious and alert. This is similar to Robert Monroe’s “Body Asleep, Mind Awake� conditions for OBE.

EXERCISE
Here are some conditions that may help you carry out remote viewing using the Harmony of Opposites method You need:

A warm, comfortable environment with no undue distractions.

A belief that you are in complete control and that you can initiate and terminate the session at will and the belief that remote viewing is a natural part of our human abilities - that it can be trained and developed.

Close your eyes and focus on "nothing". Exclude thoughts that interrupt and try to create a "blue space" in your imagination.

Next, do some visualization exercises. You might want to have a friend read these to you, while you are relaxed and have your eyes closed:

The Sense of Touch:
Imagine touching velvet, a baby bunny, sandpaper, an ice cube in the palm of your hand, grains of sand.

The Sense of Smell:
Imagine smelling sweet perfume, the scent of new-mown grass, a freshly opened can of coffee, the wind off the sea.

The Sense of Hearing:
Imagine hearing a train whistle, a young baby crying, the rustle of a paper, the wind through the trees.

The Sense of Taste:
Imagine tasting a sweet candy bar, a lemon, a salty pretzel, a segment of grapefruit.

The Sense of Sight:
Imagine seeing a flat square, then a cube, a red circle, a blue pyramid.
Then proceed to visualizing a picture of a scene that is enjoyable to you, say a field of flowers.

Next, as your body relaxes and your mind and imagination are busy, you may begin to feel a slight sense of disorientation. At this point say " I want to go to ........ (and name your destination)�. The images you receive may be fragmented and unclear but with time and practice they will resolve into clearer, more complete pictures. Remember to practice!

[qbeac]

Hi CFTraveler, this is the link to the article you have posted (there was an HTML version of it):

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/catalyst/ ... odule2.rtf (http://mypeoplepc.com/members/catalyst/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/Module2.rtf)

The “problem� with that article is that it is only a “conference� on remote viewing, and I don’t think it has been published in a prestigious scientific journal. In order for the scientific community to accept it, it would have to be published in one of those scientific journals (Nature, Science, The Lancet, etc.).

Un saludo, qbeac.

[Tombo]

I try to see from a more Divine perspective
How do you do that?
Well, key word was *try.* The more you try, the closer you'll eventually get. Anyone can try simply by self-control from the Mind. This would include control over the beast within, which is ones own self demons; i.e., the emotions. Also control over the physical body along with daily self contemplation, mediations, and even visualization exercises.

I wonder how you can know if you get closer to the divine perspective.
Since you do not have this divine perspective yet, it seems kind of hard to figure if one gets closer or not.






Yes it will evolve beyond the physical plane but sooner or later it will reappear in lower world. What I learned Buddha said was basically:

As long as I being has attachement to anything it will reappear (in different planes depending on the Karma) but no matter where it appears it will suffer again sooner or later as long as attachment is there.
Do you agree with that?
Yes, attachment will keep you in the reincarnation cycle. A liberated being does not have any physical attachments, which is why such a being does not have to reincarnate.

Well actually I would say a liberated being does not only have no physical attachment, it has no attachement at all. Which means it will not reincarnate anywhere.


You said, "sooner or later it will reappear in lower world." That part I disagree with. Evolution is always an upward spiral.



It is not an endless circle. From a material perspective it may appear as a circle. There are always higher planes. When you become liberated, you will eventually no longer reincarnate. There you will move to the great mental realms which are more vast than you and I can comprehend. These mental realms btw exist everywhere as your mental unit generates waves in these high planes. Yet, these vast cities in even the lowest mental realm begin at the outer edge of our physical universe. Albeit, the mental body may travel from the end of our universe to here within about ~10 seconds depending how far out in these realms you are.
After mental realms exists yet another, and then another and another and then another. All of these 7 planes or realms consist of just one Cosmic plane. When you reach the 7th, then there is a major graduation to the lowest plane in the next Cosmic plane. This is already far far more than we can imagine, but there are 7 Cosmic planes and within each Cosmic plane are seven planes. Beyond this point, the highest Cosmic plane, is unknown to almost all beings on this side. Think of it this way. Most people on Earth wonder what it's like beyond physical death. Ok, a superhuman knows what it is like beyond physical death.

Don't you fear this will generate bad Karma for you? Maybe I'm not ready for this info.


Yet, even most superhumans on Earth do not know what it is like even beyond *our* Cosmic plane much less the next Cosmic plane. Yet, there are beings so spiritually evolved that have reached the next highest Cosmic plane.
These beings are so beyond our comprehension it makes my head spin. Yet, even these beings for the most part do not know what is beyond the highest Cosmic plane. To them, that is a boundary just like the physical plane is the boundary to most Earth humans. They know about its existence, but they don't know all that much. They know that every so often a group consciousness, which consists of 1000's of enlightened beings (beings far beyond Buddha), will become one entire spark of light, a pillar of light you could say. Then this incredible pillar of light ascends beyond the highest Cosmic plane. I am told that to date no such pillar of light has even come back. You could say that it is an incredible change.

Of course it makes me wonder again from where you would know that info? You said you have been "told", I respect that. But consider me position, somebody tells me that he has been told that the universe has 7 Planes with 7 Planes in them again etc. I mean, surely you can not expect me to say "ok sure 7*7 planes, makes sense must be right" I mean, if i would be that way, I could change me mind about every second day, because about every second day somebody nice comes around and explains how the world really works. :?

I must also add that your comment:
which consists of 1000's of enlightened beings (beings far beyond Buddha),
is almost Blasphemy to a Buddhist, simply because there is no believe in a higher evolution after Buddha as far as I've been told.




What I was trying to say was that even your beliefs can be forced to change presuming you have a working sane mind. This is due to the reason that everyone has a threshold. If an extraterrestrial landed in someone's front yard and offered to spend the next 10 years proving their existence, then surely they will succeed. Such an extraterrestrial could apply great mental, emotional, and even physical proof that any sane person could not deny.
What's being taken away from you are your beliefs. Even though a particular person may not benefit from such beliefs at the moment, it is possible for a more power being to take those away from you. This is all surrounding the idea that even the top 100 scientists of the world could persuade nearly everyone to believe in a truth. So if a person did not believe in OBE's, and if say the top 100 scientists in the world had hardcore proof, then the beliefs of a lot of people will change.

So maybe they incarnated into this world and time to experience just that! A major change in their believe. Maybe the higher self wants that to happen exactly now. Sometimes major changes in a society happen. I'm sure that Darwins theory of evolution also changed the believe of a lot of People. Things like that are unavoidable from time to time IMO.



Stability comes with experience / time. For example, a newborn baby just entered this new outside world. It is new, so over time things become familiar. First the baby needs to learn how to interpret what it sees. Oh it can see light, but it may look at a candle flame and see a monster. Same goes with any plane. The more you consciously travel and experience the Etheric and astral planes the more it will become real and stable to you. For most people, projections are not much more than a self created world. The astral is dominated by a completely different set of universal laws than the physical. It is made of matter / energy that is far finer and higher in intrinsic vibrational rate. You may be out of body fully conscious, but staring at your faucet. Yet in your own mind, you believe you are standing before Niagara waterfall. With some focus you'll learn to snap out of it. Over time you'll learn to focus in the present time line that your material body is in.


Thx Paul that makes sense; i work on that.

Cu Tom

[pmlonline]

I wonder how you can know if you get closer to the divine perspective.
Since you do not have this divine perspective yet, it seems kind of hard to figure if one gets closer or not.
Again, all you can do is try your best, to be the best you know how. Studying / educating yourself and self experience with the aid of logic are powerful tools. As mentioned, early on in life I went on a hunt for the supernatural. I went to all kinds of so-called gifted people and groups. I found some interesting and even amazing things. Until one day an unusual man gave me the phone # to a group that was not published. This is where I met the superhuman. Even though it took years of searching, I found it, my personal proof. So I had personal proof from this superhuman and my own OBE tests. That was more than enough for me. For some it may take a lifetime to find such proof while others may find it the next day. You never know until you put forth the effort.




Well actually I would say a liberated being does not only have no physical attachment, it has no attachement at all. Which means it will not reincarnate anywhere.
Liberated, as in a Physical plane Liberated being. Not a being Liberated from all planes in all existence, lol. A person will become liberated from the material and may either move on to the higher planes or may choose to become an Avatar and stay on the physical plane for however long he or she wills.




Don't you fear this will generate bad Karma for you? Maybe I'm not ready for this info.
It is classified as spiritual teachings :-); i.e., 7 planes in 7 cosmic planes, etc. Even if it was for example a suggestion regarding physical exercise then again I can only try my best. That is, contemplate if it is wise to tell a person about a certain physical exercise. There are actually physical exercises that cause great harm to a person. Just as there are psychic exercises that can eventually give a person supernatural power. It is too tempting for the average person who may practice and use these powers. Such power in the hands of the average Earth human will corrupt. Again, it IS your responsibility to choose if you should give that information or not. It is only your decision. If ones policy is to always give regardless, then that person will not only obtain negative karma, but they'll find themselves in a hurt of trouble. That is, presuming you have such secretive information. Just like you cannot go down a street in the U.S. and start telling all the children about drugs, sex, techniques how to cheat on tests, how to make bombs, etc. etc. You'll find yourself in jail real fast.




Of course it makes me wonder again from where you would know that info? You said you have been "told", I respect that. But consider me position, somebody tells me that he has been told that the universe has 7 Planes with 7 Planes in them again etc. I mean, surely you can not expect me to say "ok sure 7*7 planes, makes sense must be right" I mean, if i would be that way, I could change me mind about every second day, because about every second day somebody nice comes around and explains how the world really works. :?
Yes, but it is not personal proof that I offer nor do I expect anyone to take my word for it. Rather, I am merely pointing the direction to personal proof in addition to a glimpse of what one may see along the way.




I must also add that your comment:
which consists of 1000's of enlightened beings (beings far beyond Buddha),
is almost Blasphemy to a Buddhist, simply because there is no believe in a higher evolution after Buddha as far as I've been told.
Agreed, just as most Christians believe the teachings of other religions to be wrong. Yet what are we talking about here ... the written teachings of an enlightened being that has passed through 1000's of years of time. No written text in the hands of humanity has ever lasted. It is not the same. Too many changes, and far far from the actual words of Buddha. Did you know the Christian Bible only has 66 books now? I am suggesting that Buddha is not the ultimate being by any means. Life extends far beyond even our universe. I am told and believe there's no end.




So maybe they incarnated into this world and time to experience just that! A major change in their believe. Maybe the higher self wants that to happen exactly now. Sometimes major changes in a society happen. I'm sure that Darwins theory of evolution also changed the believe of a lot of People. Things like that are unavoidable from time to time IMO.
Yes, but it is still our duty to try our best. For example it is wise to not assume what another person needs. That persons higher & Divine self will guide that person over time. We are talking about here is providing proof for another person. When we give another being something then it is our duty to be as responsible as possible. We cannot give for the sake of giving. Please understand that person may not have what you have at this moment, but in time they will. Yet that does not mean you should not give! It merely means you should contemplate the decision because it truly is *your* decision.

Thanks for the interesting conversation,
Paul

[CFTraveler]

Querido qbeac- O es "querida?" Well, whatever-
I'm not even sure that the article is the correct one- I just recall hearing on the radio about this "announcement". Unfortunately, I didn't keep up with it- the conversation about the search for proof is what made me remember it and I had to Google to find any references to it.
Not very scientific of me, now isn't it? :wink:

[qbeac]

Hi CFTraveler, well, I would like to clarify that I didn’t mean to criticize your article nor your post. That wasn’t my intention. What I was trying to say is that, from the point of view of the scientific community, these types of experiences (OBE, remote viewing, etc.) have two types of “weaknesses�:

1) Lack of credibility. Due to the lack of solid proof, it is very easy for them to dismiss these experiences simply as hallucinations, dreams, imaginations, etc. If they don’t see evidence, that’s what they’ll probably think.

2) Lack of articles which have been published in prestigious scientific journals (Ex: Nature, Science, The Lancet, etc.). In order for an article to be published in those journals, it has to go through peer review, which is a very demanding procedure to ensure the article has complied all the requirements of the Scientific Method:

- Peer review:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review
Excerpt from the Wikipedia: “Peer review (known as refereeing in some academic fields) is a scholarly process used in the publication of manuscripts and in the awarding of funding for research. Publishers and funding agencies use peer review to select and to screen submissions. The process also forces authors to meet the standards of their discipline. Publications and awards that have not undergone peer review are likely to be regarded with suspicion by scholars and professionals in many fields.�

- Scientific Method:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
Excerpt from the Wikipedia: “The scientific method or scientific process is fundamental to scientific investigation and to the acquisition of new knowledge based upon physical evidence by the scientific community�

- The sceptic’s main argument about Out-of-body experience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_Of_Body_Experiences
Brief excerpt: “While the subjective experience may be very compelling, most skeptics discount the idea that the phenomenon is somehow linked to an actual physical relocation of consciousness. They note that, in the absence of the typical conviction that the experience is real, these experiences would simply be considered dreams; and that lacking hard evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation would be that the experiencer's sense of heightened reality, however powerful, is a subjective one.�

--------------------

In summary, unless these types of experiences are able to improve their “public image� (or their “scientific image�) with regards to those two points above (1-credibility, and 2-scientific journals), they will probably not be able to escape from the lower orbit of the paranormal (hallucinations, dreams, etc.) for a long time. And therefore, the message about these experiences and all their benefits will not reach a lot of people for a long time. For better or worse, nowadays, the scientific community has the key (at least one of them) to open the door for the public recognition of these experiences, and vice versa, to keep it under lock.

Un abrazo. qbeac.

P.S. I would like to add that I do believe these experiences are real, because I have had several ones. So, I am not looking for evidence for myself, but for other people, and especially for the scientific community.

[qbeac]

Hi everybody, the following movie talks about some of the topics we have been debating in this thread and in this forum in general:

What the BLEEP Do We Know!?
http://www.whatthebleep.com/
Groups: http://www.noetic.org/community/groups.cfm

SYNOPSIS

WHAT THE BLEEP DO WE KNOW?! is a new type of film. It is part documentary, part story, and part elaborate and inspiring visual effects and animations. The protagonist, Amanda, played by Marlee Matlin, finds herself in a fantastic Alice in Wonderland experience when her daily, uninspired life literally begins to unravel, revealing the uncertain world of the quantum field hidden behind what we consider to be our normal, waking reality.

She is literally plunged into a swirl of chaotic occurrences, while the characters she encounters on this odyssey reveal the deeper, hidden knowledge she doesn’t even realize she has asked for. Like every hero, Amanda is thrown into crisis, questioning the fundamental premises of her life – that the reality she has believed in about how men are, how relationships with others should be, and how her emotions are affecting her work isn’t reality at all! … (it continues)

-----------------------

I recommend it to anyone. Enjoy it!!!

Un abrazo, qbeac.

[Apex]

Discussed here: http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=1042

[qbeac]

Hi everybody, some people have asked us several questions about how to perform the experiment with the Agnostic Method. For instance: how and where they should place the words written on the paper, etc. So, these are some clarifications about how to do the experiment:

The instructions in English of how to do the Agnostic Method experiment are in the following link:

- Post #4, pag. 1. INSTRUCTIONS OF THE AGNOSTIC METHOD
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

Also here: - Whats Your Proof?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011

But those are only partial instructions, since we have not been able to translate everything to English yet. The whole thing in Spanish is in this link:

- Post #301 y #302. pag. 31. Instrucciones del Método Agnostic de verificación astral.
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/sho ... #post38484 (http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?p=38484#post38484)

So, let me add a few things about the experiment:

Our idea is that the experiment could be performed in three different levels:

Level 1: Personal level. A single person could try the Agnostic Method all by itself at home. You would only need the help of a friend of yours (or family member) to choose the words from the dictionary and write them on a piece of paper. Your friend would give you the papers inside a folder or something, so that you cannot see the words. You could place the paper in any appropriate place inside your room or near by and without looking at the words during the process. O course you would have to place the paper somewhere totally outside of your physical visual reach.

Level 2: For small groups of people. Ex: The projector could do the experiment with the help of a few friends. The friend would choose the words and place the words in his/her own house. And the projector who astral project, will have to “travel� to the house of his/her friend to read the words written in the paper. The next morning you talk to each other to verify if the words coincide or not. The person who controls the projector we call it “the controller�, and it could be a friend of yours, or anybody else who would be willing to do the job.

For instance, we (a small group of scientists from the Spanish forum 100cia.com) are now controlling an experienced projector who is trying to read the words. This projector is trying to go from his house to the house of one of us. In case he gets positive results, we may change the controller a couple of times just to make sure there were not any errors in the process (mistakes, fraud, jokes, etc.).

Level 3: Experiments performed in a controlled environment, in a laboratory, and following all the guarantees of the Scientific Method. This is the final step and the hardest one to pass for any projector. We would be willing to test in the lab any projectors who can pass the preliminary stages.

Therefore, our intention is to go from very low and loose security measures (Level 1), to give every projector the opportunity to practice in very relaxed and comfortable manner (at home, with his/her own friends, etc.), to the opposite end: very high and tight security measures in a laboratory (Level 3), and to go from one extreme to the other in a very gradual way.

Well, that’s a brief summary of all the things we have been saying in the Spanish forum. If you have any questions, please, feel free to ask.

Un saludo, qbeac.

[jalef]

As far as i know there have been several experiments on this field but they are simply ignored by the majority because this is what happens:

-they find someone who claims he can proove OBEs are real.
-they test him with any method they want.
-they find at last its real.
After that there are 2 possibilities:
1. other scientists will find an incredible way with more than one coincidence what could have happened without the person showing anything supernatural and the scientist doing the experiment will lose all respect they had.
or 2. the whole thing will just be ignored.

even if its done public with a lot of people seeing it it will not haver that impact because people learned for many years thet such things are impossible. about a year ago we had a show on tv with hundreds of people watching it live and millions watching it over tv. there were many people showing things such as telekinesis, prediction and even uri geller showing how he bends spoons. everybody was really impressed and fascinated and the next day nobody cared about it. you can read about some experiments in the books of viktor farkas. so IMO if you manage to proove obes are real with qbeacs method exact the same will happen.

[qbeac]

As far as i know there have been several experiments on this field but they are simply ignored by the majority because this is what happens:

-they find someone who claims he can proove OBEs are real.
-they test him with any method they want.
-they find at last its real.
After that there are 2 possibilities:
1. other scientists will find an incredible way with more than one coincidence what could have happened without the person showing anything supernatural and the scientist doing the experiment will lose all respect they had.
or 2. the whole thing will just be ignored.

even if its done public with a lot of people seeing it it will not haver that impact because people learned for many years thet such things are impossible. about a year ago we had a show on tv with hundreds of people watching it live and millions watching it over tv. there were many people showing things such as telekinesis, prediction and even uri geller showing how he bends spoons. everybody was really impressed and fascinated and the next day nobody cared about it. you can read about some experiments in the books of viktor farkas. so IMO if you manage to proove obes are real with qbeacs method exact the same will happen.
Hi jalef, that’s not necessarily so. Paradigm shifts are possible. It is truth that right now we are still living under the influence of the current scientific paradigm (a materialistic view of life), but during the history of mankind, there have been many other paradigms which, at the time, seemed impossible to be changed. However, they finally did change and now they are obsolete.

So, nowadays (year 2005), the same thing could happen one more time. Why not?

These are some examples of old social beliefs and paradigms that did not stand.

Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Roman Empire, “eye for eye, tooth for tooth�, versus “love your enemy� (Jesus Christ), The Middle Age, Feudalism, Geocentric theory (Copernic and Galileo), Modern Science (Newton), The Industrial Revolution (18th, 19th century), Theory of Relativity (Einstein), slavery and racism (Martin Luther King), Apartheid (Nelson Mandela)…

The only doubt now is: when will the next Paradigm Shift take place, and who will collaborate to make it happen.

- Scientific revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_revolution

- Paradigm shift
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift

Also, some serious scientific journals and scientists are beginning to pay a closer attention to some “paranormal� phenomenon, and some very good articles have started to be published in such journals. Just two examples of these pioneers:

- Dr. Pim van Lommel NDE study. Published in The Lancet, 2001:
http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archiv ... et_NDE.htm (http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm)
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/ ... Lommel.htm (http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm)

- What Emergency Department Staff Need to Know About Near-Death Experiences
Debbie James MSN, RN, CCRN, CNS
Topics in Emergency Medicine. January/March 2004. Volume 26 Number 1. Pages 29 - 34
http://www.nursingcenter.com/library/Jo ... _ID=493684 (http://www.nursingcenter.com/library/JournalArticle.asp?Article_ID=493684)
http://tomcoburnisabigfatjerk.blogspot. ... t-iii.html (http://tomcoburnisabigfatjerk.blogspot.com/2005/03/near-death-experiences-part-iii.html)

So, in my opinion, this could just be the beginning of the end of the current paradigm. But it depends on us how much longer we stay in it.

Un saludo, qbeac.

[jalef]

hmm
maybe you're right and we just need a lot more studies that proof reality so the scientific community cant ignore it any more

[qbeac]

hmm
maybe you're right and we just need a lot more studies that proof reality so the scientific community cant ignore it any more
Hi everybody, I wish you a Happy New Year 2006!!!

Hi jalef, yes, I believe so, paradigms shifts are possible if we, togehter, make them happen.

I have been updating a little bit the instructions of the Agnostic Method. You’ll find it at link:

- Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences (See Post #1 to Post #4)
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

Also, an experienced projector whose nick is Gav has written a very good article about the RTZ (Real Time Zone) in which he gives hints, suggestions and advice about how to avoid the distortions that sometimes appear between the astral plane and the physical plane. He has already given me his permission to share his document as long as everybody observes his desire of keeping his document intact. You’ll see his “copyright instructions� at the end of his document.

This is the link:

- Gav’s Word document about the RTZ. I really encourage you to take a look at it.
http://www.future-horizons.co.uk/doc/A_Short_Discourse_On_OBE_Perception.doc

- Converstaion with Gav at lilacsky forum (you may have to register to see it).
Section: Research and Study's
Thread: Are Astral Travel and OBE real or imaginary experi
http://lilacsky.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=study&action=display&thread=1135185352

- Gav's comments about the experiment and the RTZ. Pag. 2, Post #9 y Post #10. Thread: "I did a RTZ verification experiment this morning"
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewt ... &&start=10 (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21581&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=10)

Chao. qbeac.

I'm new to this forum, and I have had some wild experiences with OBE's. I have a Parapsychology Certification from Loyd Auerbach, one of the leading Parapsychologists in the USA, and one of only a few people in the world who have a Graduate Degree in Parapsychology. Check out his website http://www.mindreader.com or Goggle him. He has become a friend of mine, and I've talked to him about his own experiences. He has had a few spontaneous OBE's and experienced a spirit walking through him when on a ghost hunting mission. He gets a zillion e-mails from people asking if their photos, videos, etc. of ghosts are real. He is one tough cookie! It takes A LOT of information and verification before he will even MAYBE say your experience was real. You think ♥♥♥♥♥ is tough? Try to prove something to Loyd, who is an actual believer. So, when I tell you Loyd has said he had an OBE, you better believe it!! He does everything he can to disprove something so that what is left has the ring of truth to it.

[CFTraveler]

I just read about half the document- awesome! A Must Read!

[qbeac]

Hi everybody,

The debate we are having in the Spanish science forum 100cia.com about OBE and AP is raising controversy. We are talking about the possibility of a scientific paradigm shift in case OBE were to be proven to be real experiences as opposed to imaginary ones. Right now many scientists from the scientific community believe they are only imaginary experiences.

So, I would like to ask all of you two very important questions regarding this topic:

1) Please, has any of you ever tried doing a GROUP OBE? That is, have you ever been able to meet with somebody else in the astral plane?

2) In case you have, what kind of information do you think you could exchange with another person in those circumstances?

For instance, could you tell that person a single “specific word� which that person could remember and report about it later? Or perhaps you could describe to that person a very specific “whatever� which that person could understand and report on it later…???

Please, we would appreciate very much if you could elaborate a little bit about this issue.

Thank you very much. qbeac.

P.S. 1. In case you would like to see the Spanish debate, these are two links to it:

- ¡ Cómo se crea un Paradigma !
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/sho ... ge=1&pp=10 (http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?t=6346&page=1&pp=10)
- Post #362, pag. 37. Definición de “Veridical NDE�
http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/sho ... #post41601 (http://www.100cia.com/opinion/foros/showthread.php?p=41601#post41601)

P.S. 2. For more information about Group OBE and other types of valid experiments, see:

- Post #3, pag.1. Types of experiments (Agnostic Method, Group OBE, telekinesis)
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21581