Beyond Enlightenment. Warning...Not for Sissies.

[Ouroboros]

I have never had a conscious OBE either or a lucid dream since only once when I was about 12. I am not even trying to work on achieving these things right now. It's not that I don't have the interest, I just feel like I have to do other things first, especially working with my beliefs. I just wanted to let you know, Ouroboros, that you're not the only one taking a different path.

I meant to respond to this too, and say the more the merrier. :) All paths are different, with enough similarity to allow us to help each other out.

[Tempestinateapot]

So, I've been doing a lot of thinking about this. You "awaken" to the realization that you can't know anything for sure. That's a process of stripping yourself of all of your beliefs. It's amazing how many beliefs we actually hold. Those beliefs are the props that keep us feeling safe, feeling as if there is meaning in everything we do, meaning in all of the horrible and wonderful things that happen in life. Why does God do this , why does God allow that? You can bend your mind to come up with all kinds of supposed answers, but the reality is that we can't know anything at this point. Take the props of beliefs away, and there's nothing left. What are you if you aren't someone's child, friend, sister, husband? You will only be those things in this life. That's your ego, and it is gone at death. Or, is it? Do you continue to believe those things after death, or do you become something else? We can't know. Once you accept that, what comes next? What do you do with this strange life you've been given? You can't get out of it, short of suicide. You've got to live it one way or the other.

You can drop your ego, and basically become a non-person. That's the route that McKenna has taken. Sometimes it appeals to me, sometimes not. I've had the amazing OBE experiences, and I do think it's a great way to experience life. I don't know what they mean. Were they real, or part of the illusion? I'm talking about the God Consciousness kind of OBE's. Did they show me what union with Source really is? I think they did, but I can't know. I hope it's real, 'cause it's truly amazing.

Oh, I forgot. CF, I had my first RTZ projection last week. Well, I guess it was really my second, after the first one where I slammed back into my body...what? 4 years ago? I don't count the ones where I've had weird experiences that I couldn't verify as being in the RTZ, and now I'm sure they were in the astral. Anyway, beyond the exhilaration of being OBE, it was rather unremarkable. I like the higher zone projections a lot better. The RTZ was rather anticlimactic.

[CFTraveler]

I hear you. I feel that people assume that once you get out of your body (in an RTZ or an astral projection, or even a mental one) you somehow become 'wise' and 'figure it all out.' Unfortunately, I think this stuff (and even the 'afterdeath' experience, BTW) is just another way of perceiving illusion or partiality or perspective, or whatever you want to call it (I find that words don't really describe this very well) so it's all well and good, but we still can go there, can come back and still not know anything.

[ButterflyWoman]

I think this stuff (and even the 'afterdeath' experience, BTW) is just another way of perceiving illusion or partiality or perspective, or whatever you want to call it (I find that words don't really describe this very well) so it's all well and good, but we still can go there, can come back and still not know anything.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. I just didn't say it very well.

[SP3]

Do I get a gold star for creating the longest thread, ever? Hi, Walter. *waves* Even I haven't read the whole thing. Last time I tried, it had gone so far off the rails that it was kind of absurd, so I gave up.

[quote] Do I take advantage of someone or do I help them. you think you are not being watched but you are, and it is measured, to move on to the next level. Just like school, you are watched and tested to pass the grade and move on to the next level, your not there just to look at the books...there is a point to it. Wow, is this ever fear based. One of the joys of waking up is to lose fear. This statement is the whole basis for religion and how it keeps it's hold on people. I'm seeing pictures of an avenging God, ready to strike down anyone who isn't obeying his "loving" commands. sending them off to some fiery hell. :D

You can't know that you are being measured, or that you will move on to some next level or school. How do you know that? Seriously, how do you know that? Did someone tell you that, or are you an original thinker and figured that out by yourself? By what authority can you make these claims? Honestly, I would like to know. I think you are missing the whole point of waking up.


I could be a serial killer or a saint and it wouldn't matter because I am God experiencing itself...so it doesn't matter how I spend my life or what choices I make. Now you are getting to the truth of the matter.[/quote:3qzoew8a]

I know this by the nature of the experiences I have had in the astral and my waking life, from angels to god sharing truths with me. I only share what I have been shown, told or taught myself through hard work through sincerity and effort.

If I develop a psychic ability through meditation, I had to practice allot to obtain it, if I learn as much as I can from a book to pass a quiz, I move on to the next grade...it is no different than being human and evolving ones consciousness to the next level.

If God bestows different gifts for people there must be a reason. When those people use them it changes the world in some small or large way. You don't know the truth, nor do I, only God does, so no matter what advise anyone gives you on these forums, you have to step back and look at it subjectively and listen to your intuition on whether it is truthful, because regardless of what people think they know, in truth, they know nothing...

[ButterflyWoman]

Without getting too verbose, I've finally consciously crossed the threshold to... well, everything. And nothing. Simultaneously. And the paradox is that there is no paradox.

I'm also somewhat amused to find that the whole "I am one with everything" concept is absolutely real, but it's NOTHING like I expected or anticipated. Nothing. I could find a bunch of words, but they would only be able to convey the most rudimentary aspects of the understanding. Suffice it to say that "I am one with everything" is not about emotion or feelings or love or any of that stuff. It's just a simple fact of true reality. All is One, One is All. That's it.

This "oneness" thing is... Shockingly simple, actually. And very obvious. Now I get it about how enlightenment is all around you, all the time. I also get how it's not something you can "achieve". There's nothing TO achieve, nothing that can be grasped or held or caused to happen. I get it now.

I've also known this for a while, but hadn't directly embodied it, but God is NOTHING like people or any religion I've ever seen can describe. The closest any come is the Nothingness of Zen, and the Hindu Brahman isn't too far off, but still, words totally and utterly fail.

And speaking as someone who has been having spontaneous mystical experiences from a very, very young age, I can see now that these things are really nothing to do with enlightenment or awakening. They're part of the woof and weave of the space-time continuum (even if they're not experienced physically). Mystical experiences, astral travel, psychic abilities, all of those things are fine and good and even enjoyable, and there's nothing wrong with their pursuit, and you can learn interesting things that way, certainly, but mysticism and spiritual awakening are almost entire mutually exclusive, although they may co-exist in the same life experience.

Now I'm thinking, "Okay, now what?" and the answer is, "Whatever you want." :)

I don't care if any of the stuff I just wrote makes any sense to anyone else, by the way. I wrote it partly for myself, and partly because it's on topic and, well, this thread had been revived and I thought, "What the heck."

[wstein]

Without getting too verbose, I've finally consciously crossed the threshold to... well, everything. And nothing. Simultaneously. And the paradox is that there is no paradox.

... Suffice it to say that "I am one with everything" is not about emotion or feelings or love or any of that stuff. It's just a simple fact of true reality. All is One, One is All. That's it.

This "oneness" thing is... Shockingly simple, actually. And very obvious. Now I get it about how enlightenment is all around you, all the time. I also get how it's not something you can "achieve". There's nothing TO achieve, nothing that can be grasped or held or caused to happen. I get it now.

...
Now I'm thinking, "Okay, now what?" and the answer is, "Whatever you want." :)

I don't care if any of the stuff I just wrote makes any sense to anyone else, by the way. I wrote it partly for myself, and partly because it's on topic and, well, this thread had been revived and I thought, "What the heck." :D :) :o :lol: :D

[lightningbug]

All I hear is someone challenging preconceived ego notions. But I don't feel you are there yet. As you are defining all of these ideas based on preconceived definitions of those ideas.

How about taking these ideas out of the box?


And, imagine that love is not real. It can't be. It's a creation. It's part of the duality. It's an illusion. You can't hang your hat on it. Which is what I have been doing all my life. Hanging my imaginary hat on an imaginary love concept.

Illusion is not imaginary.

Atoms are real.

I am real. That tree over there is real. Love is real. Everything that is created is real.

Why do we call it an illusion? Because theres this thing we call reality. And the truth is, we never experience reality directly. Ask any scientist. The truth is, we only PERCEIVE reality. What is perception, but an illusion of what really is?

But there still really is something!

Everything created is destined to change. This is for a very specific reason. When people are looking for what is real, they want something solid and unmovable. But change is the only constant in our universe. The same is true for enlightenment. Again for a very specific reason.

"If God is love, then no-love is the opposite. That's the logical conclusion in the duality."

You were the one that decided that love needed an opposite. And then decided that because love needed an opposite it doesn't exist.

Duality is an illusion. Your need to define Love as is or isn't, is an illusion.

"Saying it or believing it is NOT getting it."

It's true believing is not getting. One must experience. Yet here you are denying thousands of people who have experienced a divine Love beyond all duality.

You just haven't experienced it yet. But we should all listen to the various experiences of human beings. If someone claims to have experienced a divine Love beyond duality, who are we to say there isn't such a Love?

"Nothing matters. Not family, not friends, not love. They are wisps floating away in the wind."

I'm sorry for you.

"I see it. I see the other side. Out of the death of the ego rises the I AM! I Am alone, but I AM Everythng! I see the creation of love, and I see that it is good. It is an illusion, but it is a fun illusion."

You see the creation of Love but you don't understand what it is. If you did, you would understand why it is so important, and why without Love, no one can be enlightened.

I would say the problem is you are still holding onto a false notion of Love, and reacting against the false notion of Love.

The picture is simple. But also complicated. And it's only complicated because of how we define things. And then we react to those definitions. But realizing the definition is an illusion is not the same as experiencing the true scope of reality.

Here is how I understand it, based on what I've learned, and my own personal experiences. There is this being we've called God. And the simple definition is a consciousness that is all that is. And maybe where God comes from, there are many Gods who are all apart of a super-God.

But our God decided sitting around and just existing wasn't enough, so God decides to become MORE. To become MORE of God. Now how does God do this, if everything that is, is? If nothing can exist outside of God, because God is? God works around this by dividing Godself. So now you have beings, who are God, who don't realize they are God. Of course, this creates an illusion of separation, and all forms of duality.

And because these beings ARE God, they do God's will, willingly. Every single one. Not a single one can go against God's will because their will, is God's will. They are one and the same. And because they are one and the same, they have the same desire. Which still is, to become MORE.

Do you see where this is going? The very activity of becoming MORE becomes evolution....enlightenment. Even the physical universe is continually expanding and becoming More. So enlightenment is an activity. Not a state of being. And while the first step is that great realization...I AM!! It doesn't end there. Enlightenment doesn't end because it is the never-ending process of becoming MORE. Look at all the people who claim they have realized they are I AM.

Yet not a single one can walk on water! Or heal! Or create! They claim to be one with God but can't create like God :roll: Something in the picture is missing

Things that stay static, obviously are not becoming MORE. But are static things wrong?

Right and wrong are human perceptions. Everything, even the ugly parts, are all apart of this never ending process of God becoming MORE. Static things then play a role, a game of sort. To create an experience so that conscious God-beings become MORE. This is why we have our illusionary reality. Our mental constructs are also static creations.

But does it mean, static things, the illusionary reality, isn't real? In my simple definition of God, nothing exists outside of God because God is all that is. Therefore static things must exist. They must be real or we would have never known of them. And in my bubble, static things are God pretending to be something. It's real because God IS, and its fake because its just God pretending. That's why it's an illusion. A mere mask of something very real.

Sound crazy? We do it all the time. It's called our ego. Through our ego we pretend. But that which is doing the pretending (you) is still real!! So even the rocks are real, even if its just an illusion of its true reality.

But if you take this understanding further, you realize everything is consciousness. Everything is real, and everything is meaningful. Of course, that's if you want to go there. I mean, how helpful is the opposite? Where everything is meaningless. Good job. Now what. Sit on your arse and rot?

Where does Love fit into all of this? Is Love created? In my ignorant bubble. I would say, YES. Love is created. But so were you, and by the same process of division. If you're following me here....Love is Conscious. Because what did I say, everything is consciousness right? Love is a Being created by God.

Love becomes not just a mere creation. But a drop of the ocean. Well, maybe more like a really big wave. Were the drops. But do you see where I am getting here?

You have divided Love from God. And while it is wrong to say God is Love, that can't be true because God is many things, not just Love. You can however say...Love is God. Just like you can say I am God. But you can not say, God is ME. Because God is more than a drop. And God is more than the Wave.

So what is Love?

How was Love first created? I imagine Love was created when God first desired to become MORE of Godself. Which first starts out as Self-Love. God loving Godself so much, God wants to be More. That's self-love. But when God loves the More (us), here we have Love being given to others. And it becomes this complete circle.

Love for me becomes not an activity, or an emotion, or even a state of being. Actually, I think it's all three simultaneously. Which is why it is beyond duality. You can not know Love until you come into the Being of Love. And when you come into the Being of Love(being), you experience Love(emotion) and you logically understand you must give Love(activity).

There is no such thing as absolute non-love. Selfishness is self-love missing the love for others. It is simply an incomplete circle of Love. So Love is outside of duality.

Because of this beautiful relationship, it is IMPOSSIBLE to become MORE of yourself....without Love. Love is the desire to become More. Love is the Being you Become when you engage in the never ending process of becoming More.

When you decide Love isn't real, or that it's meaningless, you are stopping your self-progression.

God is Being. But God is not static. God is evolving. That which moves God, is Love.

[ButterflyWoman]

All I hear is someone challenging preconceived ego notions. But I don't feel you are there yet.
Thanks for the input.

And I never said that Love wasn't real, for what it's worth. In fact, I've been the one going around this board talking about casting love and so forth.

I'm sorry that I was misunderstood. Lately, that's all I ever am, it seems. I don't know how to fix it, other than to just stop trying to communicate.

[wstein]

All I hear is someone challenging preconceived ego notions. But I don't feel you are there yet. As you are defining all of these ideas based on preconceived definitions of those ideas. Please clarify to whom you are responding.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

I liked your post, LB. :) Some thoughts...

I currently get that there are three basic elements that are not dualistic; they can't be broken down any further, and are the baseline by which everything else, including us, are measured. These are Power, Wisdom and Love. I may also be inclined to add "Mind."

As you observed, everything is in constant motion. Harness that motion, learn to navigate and direct yourself within it, and you have power. Try to stop moving, and you're being acted on by the rest of creation; you're disempowered. But the movement goes on the same way, and will keep acting on you one way or another, regardless of how you choose to operate in relation to it.

Information is everywhere. Consciously observed and applied information is wisdom. You can block yourself off from absorbing, processing and interacting with information, but the information isn't going anywhere.

It is known in the field of quantum physics that "if you break things down far enough, there are no objects, only relationships." Deliberately harnessing this field of relational energy is what we call "love." You can do everything from cutting yourself off from it entirely to increasing in your ability to harness and direct it, but everything will continue to exist in relation to everything else regardless.

The process of giving up the parts of yourself that are designed to process and relate to these fields that the term "awakening" seems to refer to doesn't seem to make you an exception. You just become like a group of people who wanders off in separate directions and loses not only its identity as "the group," but everything the group was able to accomplish as a collective. All experience seems to indicate that these parts don't cease to exist either; they just continue to wander, act and be acted upon as much as they're able without the other members, until they either find their way back to the group, or gain enough autonomy to start their own. To use another analogy, if you were able to start removing body parts and tossing them away, you'd eventually get to the point where there's no-body left, but that doesn't make your bodyparts any less "real" than their collective identity as a body was. Entropy seems to be a physical world phenomenon that does not exist on the nonphysical planes (and may be artificially imposed on the physical for the sake of experience, even). "Awakening" as its often described, seems to be an attempt to impose entropy on things that would not otherwise decay on their own (and don't, once they're free of the conscious self's attempts to split them up).

This is why I say that "awakening" is only one step... and the one after tossing everything out, is inviting back, and reintegrating... not into another disorganized and discordant collection of parts, but as a fully balanced and harmonized Whole.

Edit: Just as I was sending this, the song I was listening to went:

Everything will slip way
Shattered pieces will remain
When memories fade into emptiness
Only time will tell its tale
If it all has been in vain

...And even though I didn't catch the whole passage the first time, I got goosebumps and had to go back and see what it actually said. SYNC! :P

[Palehorse Redivivus]

I wanted to update and correct myself based on new revelations...

So I was wondering why the physical world seems to tend toward entropy, whereas all indications are that everywhere else I've seen, just the opposite is true.

I realized that the key lies in the fact that everything within a closed system entropies. This physical world itself is under quarantine; a closed system with a paradigm based on the fear of change... and so everything in it is dying. When we put restrictions on something, it just gets broken down by the ceaseless flow of change until it's broken down far enough to either stop resisting or start evolving. Open up the system, any system, and it begins to evolve; to move toward LIFE, toward greater complexity. Life, death, rebirth, evolution, dissolution... all different names for the same basic process.

Nice... 8)

[CFTraveler]

Cool.

[Ouroboros]

I wanted to update and correct myself based on new revelations...

So I was wondering why the physical world seems to tend toward entropy, whereas all indications are that everywhere else I've seen, just the opposite is true.

I realized that the key lies in the fact that everything within a closed system entropies. This physical world itself is under quarantine; a closed system with a paradigm based on the fear of change... and so everything in it is dying. When we put restrictions on something, it just gets broken down by the ceaseless flow of change until it's broken down far enough to either stop resisting or start evolving. Open up the system, any system, and it begins to evolve; to move toward LIFE, toward greater complexity. Life, death, rebirth, evolution, dissolution... all different names for the same basic process.

Nice... 8)

Very nice :D

[Neil Templar]

I wanted to update and correct myself based on new revelations...

So I was wondering why the physical world seems to tend toward entropy, whereas all indications are that everywhere else I've seen, just the opposite is true.

I realized that the key lies in the fact that everything within a closed system entropies. This physical world itself is under quarantine; a closed system with a paradigm based on the fear of change... and so everything in it is dying. When we put restrictions on something, it just gets broken down by the ceaseless flow of change until it's broken down far enough to either stop resisting or start evolving. Open up the system, any system, and it begins to evolve; to move toward LIFE, toward greater complexity. Life, death, rebirth, evolution, dissolution... all different names for the same basic process.

Nice... 8)

Very nice :D

Indeed. Nicely put.
Strip away the walls of your belief systems, and infinite potential becomes available...

[lightningbug]

Please clarify to whom you are responding.

sorry for the misunderstanding, I was quoting tempest

[lightningbug]

I realized that the key lies in the fact that everything within a closed system entropies.

It's nice when you can find a spiritual understanding being reflected in science!

too bad no one explained it to church

[Palehorse Redivivus]

It's nice when you can find a spiritual understanding being reflected in science!

too bad no one explained it to church

Given the holographic and relative nature of reality, you can find anything reflected in anything, it seems...

...But church is a closed system. ;)

[Tempestinateapot]

I find it a little more than amusing how some people like to use various posts of mine to declare how wrong I am. I am nothing if not a work in progress. Something I said a year ago may not be true for me now. I don't have any answers, I don't have any knowledge to impart. This entire thread is a written process of ideas I've had, and the progress through them. I have plenty of ideas, just nothing that I can say with absolute certainty. To me, that is enlightenment. Knowing that I know very little, being willing to admit it, and creating new ideas out of old. Why some feel the necessity to bash up against anything I've said and try to prove me wrong is beyond me. None of us know for sure.

Having said that, I'm content with what I think is going to happen to me after this lifetime. I have some personal verification, but again, I can never know for sure if what I think I know is true, if it is imagination, or the ramblings of an unhinged mind. In any case, I live without fear.

Regarding love, there are so many kinds that the list is endless. For me, they are all various creations based on the one true thing that love really is...the glue that binds everything together. The Oneness that keeps us stuck to each other, no matter what illusion we may be living in. Yes, the illusion is real, but it's also not real. It's pure consciousness and not really solid as we seem to experience it. A pretty convincing dream.

I do think that we ultimately have no real identity. We become a collection of memories that is part of a larger whole. To hang onto your earthly ego is a good way to get stuck within the earthly illusion after physical death. That's what ghosts are all about. They can't move on, can't let go of earth. Live earth now and gather all the expeiences you can to add to the collective. But, be willing to drop that or risk becoming stuck. It doesn't really matter, we all move on when we've reached the point that we see there must be more.

In case anyone feels the need to argue, that's fine, but you're arguing with someone who isn't convinced that what she says is true. So, it's kind of a lesson in futility. But, feel free if you feel the need.

By the way, Palehorse, I agree that church (and religions) are closed systems. Good analagy. :D

[wstein]

I find it a little more than amusing how some people like to use various posts of mine to declare how wrong I am. I am nothing if not a work in progress. Something I said a year ago may not be true for me now. You know TNT, it's really inconsiderate of you to be wrong all the time. These people are begging for the chance but you keep putting them off. Do you truly have no compassion for their pleas? How are they supposed to learn anything if you hog all the opportunities? I know, I know, it's your universe, you created it, they just live in it. But what's the point if they have to be right over and over and over again. Where is the fun in that? The universe might be a better place if you would just allow yourself to be right once in a while. After all, you can later claim it was a mistake to do so. I hope you give this all the consideration it deserves.

Your friend,

P.S. sorry to wake you.

[star]

Funnily enough alot of yellow means to me solar plexus activity and "Subjects of self" and "intellectual acitivty" Maybe check to see how stomachy you are?
Perchance running the Micro and Macro cosmic orbits to balance energy, then using some simple Tai Chi Chaun postures to start working the meridians associated with other chakras to see how it changes and opens your perceptions?
You've already done that oneness thingy (Which I have yet to do) but as curiosity is one of main drives after Jed Mckenna's books punched me in the face I like to share the things that work for me.
At least you havent mentioned having spirits following you around. If you don't want that I wouldn't suggest cultivating your energy much.

Have you had any deep energy exchanges with anyone? . NOM NOM NOM NOM. That is fun to do too.

[Tempestinateapot]

Walter, you're funny! :D

Star, huh? What's with the solar plexis/yellow deal? Me no comprendo. Yes, I know all about the energy system and am very familiar with energy body work. But, what made you think of that? Something I said?

[jether]

I think that we are only illusion in that everything changes, so reality is transcendent or evlolutionary (as we are pre-transcendent self experiencing separation)But, love is still the only ultimate truth because if all is one then the one seeks to harmonize itself as it surely does not idealize separation, imbalance, and desparity(i.e i try to love myself). True the love we understand may not be absolute truth because it is not the "ultimate" truth being our love falls way shoart of a love that the Father creator would know. So, as we are imperfect we are humble and as we stare in awe at creation and balance we chance to see love mostly in the freedom we have which is love indeed. So without going nuts, to mimic the love of freedom and allowing others freedom while realizing that the truth of who we are at the present moment is fractional truth like saying that a book is the ultimate truth of the separate pages contained within. Ultimately isnt creation on a path of lower entropy which means an integration and working together of once separate components of a system to achieve more with less. You can do that with say 7 members of a family but never 7 inmates as the polarities of the loving family members would favor coming together in a cause but the polarites of the inmates favor a failed system, love rules. I have a lot to learn about it yet as it is complicated as love must be balanced with its negatives respect, discipline, ect. which breed conflict first then awareness for the many.

[Hastor]

Okay, I've been reading over this topic from some time and am rather intrested in its contents, but so far I have not found a point at which to interject an idea or to ask a valid or specific question which is not disturbingly obvious. My answer to this is to ask a question and introduce myself into the fray by asking the most obvious, banal question possible based upon what I've read so far.

What is meant, or choosen by necessity, as the highest peak to which our existance can transpire?
put simply:
What is the goal?

[wstein]

This thread is specifically about what happens after you awaken (equivalent to some definitions of enlightenment). This is not a thread about general advancement. The purpose is to compare notes and to give a preview to those on this path.

[SP3]

Many have guessed and theorized what it all means and the ultimate goal; Some believe Nirvana - becoming one with the universe, others believe perfection - being like Christ, and others simply believe to exist with whatever cards your dealt and simply be. Unfortunately nobody knows the answer to your question even though I'm sure everyone has asked it.

[Hastor]

I'm not so
This thread is specifically about what happens after you awaken (equivalent to some definitions of enlightenment). This is not a thread about general advancement. The purpose is to compare notes and to give a preview to those on this path.

Well, how do you know if you are awake or not? I would like to believe that I am enlightened and yet I have never had more than one epiphany and even then it was just textbook. I never really went on a path towards what I know now. If anything, what I am now is only because of what I am supposed to be. I am enlightened in so far as that I know what is and what isn't. To tell the truth, my problem is that I do not really understand the criteria for your enlightenment or its validity whether that be personal or a more broad acceptance into a higher level of consciousness. Are you or I enlightened because we say we are, or espouse some personal experiance that lends to said validity; or are you enlightened because there was an obvious exopersonal sign observed that is shared throughout enlightened peoples?


Many have guessed and theorized what it all means and the ultimate goal; Some believe Nirvana - becoming one with the universe, others believe perfection - being like Christ, and others simply believe to exist with whatever cards your dealt and simply be. Unfortunately nobody knows the answer to your question even though I'm sure everyone has asked it.

I'm not so much asking as to what the "ultimate" goal of all existance is. My first interpretation must have fuddled the question up a bit, but what I was asking was more along the lines of a question pretaining to the personal ramifications and rewards brought about from the enlightenment spoken of in this thread. This might just make things worse, but the question that keeps comign up is a very vague and formless "why?". If you actively pursue anything then there must be some sort of motivation. What I'm trying to understand is the nature of such motivation.

[Tom]

Jed McKenna wrote that popularity amongst the deeply asleep is not the best way to judge a tool or an idea for waking up.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

Many have guessed and theorized what it all means and the ultimate goal; Some believe Nirvana - becoming one with the universe, others believe perfection - being like Christ, and others simply believe to exist with whatever cards your dealt and simply be. Unfortunately nobody knows the answer to your question even though I'm sure everyone has asked it.

In a multiverse of infinite possibility, who's to say there's a single, universal goal? Or maybe it'd be more productive to ask -- who, other than yourself, is in any position to define any ultimate goal for you other than your own?

[SP3]

For me, at first it was to uncover truth behind the world and myself:

I didn't understand some of the experiences about myself such as healing, meditation and psychic things that would happen even though I was aware they were not something the people around me were experiencing, and so not normal. This is what motivated me to unlock those truths that would surface from within me. Then it was more about a motivation to serve my life purpose and contribute as much as possible to helping the world so my life wasn’t wasted and make a difference in the world. I believe this sincerity/motivation is what really did it and showered me with all sorts of awareness.

I believe I am awakened, based on my experiences and guidance to what I am aware of, that others around me are not. Although it may change you permanently by becoming aware of these truths. Often, I think how much happier I would be without my awareness because it can be very sad and painful to learn the truths about this world. Also this knowledge places bigger responsibilities and expectations on you. What is the point of that knowledge and awareness if you don’t intend on doing anything with it to help the rest of the world. Achieving that awareness without putting it to use is just stroking your own ego and selfish.

I hope this helped in learning about motivation, or what I prefer: sincerity.

[CFTraveler]

I have heard that one of the things that happen around you when you become awakened, is that you automatically increase the vibrational level of those around you, by entrainment. I'm not sure if this is 'really' *true*, but I will confess to a sort of awakening around ten years ago (another one while younger, but that's besides the point), and yet have seen people around me acquire some more spiritual leanings, some more than others, some sooner than later, that I found to be astonishing. It is possible that it was a question of only 'noticing that others were becoming interested in what I have been interested', but since this has been happening for a very long time in a very drawn out process, maybe it's not because of me, but because of a mass process that I have slowly become aware of.
I do see something happening around me- not that I caused it, maybe I was one of the first (in my immediate vicinity) that became aware of this process.


I realize my point may have been confusing (or do I have one?)
Maybe the point to awakening is only that: That by becoming awakened to a process that is happening in yourself, you become aware of this process in others, or by becoming awakened to this process, you help spark it in others, even though it seems you're not doing anything else.
However, I do believe that what is known as "good works" is the motivating factor, or the result of this awakening, and even if you don't think you're doing it, you will express this benevolence (for want of a better word) one way or another.

[wstein]

I'm not so
This thread is specifically about what happens after you awaken (equivalent to some definitions of enlightenment). This is not a thread about general advancement. The purpose is to compare notes and to give a preview to those on this path. Well, how do you know if you are awake or not? Awakening as that term is used here starts with an insight that all is one. That the separateness is an illusion. There is a similar but very different experience, where you feel connected to all things, as if all life is but part of a single enormous being. There some common follow responses that identify this type of awakening.

At first it feels like the world is dissolving and going to disappear. Many things you thought to be important suddenly crumble and loose their substance. You stop many of your daily activities as there seems no reason to do them any more. Your still-asleep friends think you have lost it but you aren't even sure why you have friends. Things 'flatten' and become empty. Everything becomes far less relevant and pointless. Many wonder for a time, "why bother?" Often this is accompanied by a depression like state for months. Eventually you come to terms with it when you realize that purpose is what you want it to be.

There is often a confusion of identity, as much of what you thought was you actually turns out just to be things you did. Further the lack of separation opens up all kinds of new possibilities of where to base your identity. The mind can have a really hard time as it is sure that other people and things are NOT you. Yet in a way they are.

As a practical way to tell, read this whole thread. There those who are awake and those who are not. If you can tell the difference, chances are that you are awake too.

[SP3]

How do you know you’re awake or not?

I look at it more as awakenings. Here are some examples;

• Education, whether it’s from books or from teachers, from advertisements or in the movies, from news to political leaders, it is amazing to see how many lies and manipulation is going on over us. The ability to disseminate this information, to notice a lie or falsehood when it happens, then back it up with your own research which proves it to yourself your hunch was right and makes you aware the world is not what it seems. I see things in the news and know they are lying or manipulating me to believe something. It is my awareness that makes me recognize that they are lying, and the actions I take to learn about the topic is empowering to take action.

• Awakening in the Astral is one. Being conscious and able to explore the astral and dialog with guides, thought forms or others like yourself who are hanging out. Being able to experiment with the Astrals laws such as flying, passing through objects, materializing objects, etc. We sleep half of our lives away, completely unconscious. So to those who are conscious you are doubling your life experience.

• Meditation to the point where you know the difference between your unconsciousness and your consciousness is important because it also helps you to be aware of everything else, from metaphysical experiences to what is being told to you.

• Telepathy is another, feeling others feelings or thoughts, or sending your own feelings or thoughts happens all the time but not many are aware of it when it happens. Being able to take notice of it when it happens is a spiritual awareness.

• Claircognizance: knowing facts about something without being told by anyone, being aware of it when it happens, this is something I am noticing more and more with myself and that allot of it is not me. It is coming from somewhere, more and more I believe it is divine guidance based on the nature of what the awareness is. I guess because I act on it.

• Psychicness (not sure if this is the correct term: Clairvoyant/seeing into the future) More and more I see the future in my dreams to the next day. I don’t understand why it is happening more and more, but my dreams are coming true the following day. Déjà vu is a form of this as well only it may be a little further into the future, the déjà vu is remembering something from the dream in the waking world. From big events to insignificant ones.

• Divine messages, this is what I pay more attention too...from my dreams to my daily life I am always paying attention to my surroundings and my thoughts. It doesn’t happen everyday but it does happen and especially when I am in need of it. I will provide a more recent example; on how it works;

E.g.I prayed that night about whether learning to heal from a book I was given by a healer many years ago I never did read. I remembered how I was told by a psychic long ago that God has given me a gift of healing and how several opportunities to learn from real masters kept popping up in my life, from a Buddhist monk who could heal from a distance, to a engineering friend in school who I experienced firsthand, to meditations being given to me in the astral. I never really did give it a chance. I thought in order for me to heal, I would first have to cure myself with something like my Tinnitus, that doesn’t go away. That I should stick with the book and really put an effort into it. That way if I can cure myself I could cure others. That night I dreamed about someone I haven’t seen or thought about in over 2 years and about learning something from him. When I awoke I didn’t pay much attention until I came across a YouTube Video of this guy teaching about things who looked just like the guy in the dream. He was talking about water purification and how to find out what was the best filter and had a link to a website article on the subject. Ass he started to ramble, I began remembering what I was thinking about last night regarding the book on healing then instantly word for word he began to say exactly what I was thinking with regards to sticking with the book and putting it into practice and trusting the experts…I was shocked that it was so in sync, then I read the article he linked and noticed that the author of the article had the same last name as my friend the healer who lent me the book. All happening within a few minutes.

I believe that was an answer to my prayers, done in very creative way, not directly at all…not sure why it wasn’t direct where an angel would appear and tell me to stick with the book…I would prefer that over having to really pay attention and connect the dots, but that’s how it worked out. I always have to be on alert to take notice of simple messages. It can become frustrating at times.

I keep a journal to record everything I am aware of which is significant. That I believe is awareness, being able to recognize the unrecognizable when it happens.

[Hastor]

Awakening as that term is used here starts with an insight that all is one. That the separateness is an illusion. There is a similar but very different experience, where you feel connected to all things, as if all life is but part of a single enormous being. There some common follow responses that identify this type of awakening.

At first it feels like the world is dissolving and going to disappear. Many things you thought to be important suddenly crumble and loose their substance. You stop many of your daily activities as there seems no reason to do them any more. Your still-asleep friends think you have lost it but you aren't even sure why you have friends. Things 'flatten' and become empty. Everything becomes far less relevant and pointless. Many wonder for a time, "why bother?" Often this is accompanied by a depression like state for months. Eventually you come to terms with it when you realize that purpose is what you want it to be.

There is often a confusion of identity, as much of what you thought was you actually turns out just to be things you did. Further the lack of separation opens up all kinds of new possibilities of where to base your identity. The mind can have a really hard time as it is sure that other people and things are NOT you. Yet in a way they are.

As a practical way to tell, read this whole thread. There those who are awake and those who are not. If you can tell the difference, chances are that you are awake too.

I'm quoting wstein on this, but the question really goes out to anyone that wants to read this post: when all your friends are asleep then who do you relate yourself to? I remember my very early life as being in constant reflection of the proper ideals and postures held by others, but when, for a lack of a better term, I began to became enlightened it felt as if I was slowly overcoming those around me. I could feel myself at a place higher than where my friends were. In a semi-vision I actually saw myself standing alone atop a small hill looking down at my friends who seemed to play out their lives among tall reeds that filled the valley below my hill. They would act things out and I saw the ways the acted as the ways of children as compared to the way I perceived. This scenario began to mirror my current situation more and more until the point where I am now. Now my friends only seem to be children as compared to me. I humor them and even emerse myself in their trials and tribulations, but rarely have I ever had their actions affect me in a way I had not forseen or planned.

At this point in time I only have three people in my life who I can talk to as if they were substantial. One is my therapist who I have seen over the past few months and with whom I have talked on a variety of subjects. The closest I can relate my relationship with him to is that of some sort of modern day confessional. I say I have problems and he usually responds with a level of intelligence I can relate to. Even then he seems to be only a step above the usual vaudeville I have to go through with my friends. On the other hand there is my grandmother and her husband. Her husband is very smart in understanding things at a base level, but the first time I talked to him he thought I was some sort of prodigy. I felt gratious of such a title, but for him to believe that I am something great only shows a blemish in his finely tuned perception. There also seems to be something missing in his words. It's like hearing a debater who knows what to say only because he sees its nulification of something else, but not its inherant meaning. My grandmother, on the other hand, has the passion to hold a flame to her words, but at times she seems to say things that go without even the faintest hint of the logic and reason that have become so integral in my understanding of what is.

What it seems to all come down to is that I have always been and seem to naturally be alone on my path. This goes back to another semi-vision in which I was told that I could stand on the tallest mountain alone or not at all. Such a state of solitude affected me heavily during the beginning, but since my foot-waggling epiphany I understood that what I am is perfect in that I am what I am because I AM. I am alone because my journey required it. If I feel pain then it is a pain I am meant to feel and if I feel bliss then it is a long anticipated moment that always has been and always will be. The only way to describe my state of being is that I AM.

Anyways, aside from my personal ramblings, my question is who did you go to when you awoke? I have people that I can go to, but they do not understand where I am or who I am. The only person I was left with was myself, and, though it was a struggle, I would not be who I am today without the solitude in the trials that lead me.

[Timotheus]

:D

[Palehorse Redivivus]

though, friend, to be self-realized is to realize all as one, even the you that realized You. now insignificant within the All of IT, within you and the without redeemed to be that within as You.

I've gone the route of dubbing the parts "insignificant" in the face of the Whole, but found it to have a range of unhealthy effects. More recently I've come to resonate with the idea that every-thing is significant -- both in its own right, and in relation to that which it's part of. One might say that "everything is significant" is ultimately the same statement as "everything is insignificant" -- but I've found the latter to result in increasing separation, so I don't do it.

My path has involved a lot of integrating of "little-me" into One, in preparation for that, in turn, to integrate with my HS. But what I've found is that the parts that I integrate, retain their identity as parts; still capable of operating independently, and do so. They simply go from being dissonant and conflicted, to being able to operate with awareness of their greater context in a harmonized way, free to come and go as they please with the awareness that it's better for all of us/me if everything is on the same page. Try telling any of them that they're "insignificant" in light of what they had to do to make their contributions to the whole though, and they invariably go "screw you buddy," split back off again, and go their own way -- if I'm lucky. If I'm not, they get antagonistic toward the rest of me, and become some sort of health-hazard. Likewise, if my HS were to dub the contributions of 3D-conscious-me "insignificant," he would have dissonance within himself, and I wouldn't be very thrilled to be treated with that sort of disregard.

I've found the same set of principles to work well in my relationship with my physical body. Sure, every part of it is temporary -- but rather than thinking "temporary = insignificant," I go the route of "enjoy it for what it is while it's here." This "suit" is a collection of living things that are all making valuable contributions to the ability of this lifetime to take place. When I treat it as such, even down to periodically thanking my cells for performing their roles well, it seems to result in greater physical health -- and a greater degree of interfacing between my physical body and everything else that makes up myself, to the point that I can often tell my body what I need from it, and have it respond faithfully. All roles and identities are fluid and changing, but I have an inter-me policy that seems to go up to the HS level, that while you're part of this "team," you'll be honored as such, and encouraged to contribute to holding and raising the bar for the standard that I expect of myself.

[Timotheus]

:D

[wstein]

I'm quoting wstein on this, but the question really goes out to anyone that wants to read this post: when all your friends are asleep then who do you relate yourself to? ...

At this point in time I only have three people in my life who I can talk to as if they were substantial....

What it seems to all come down to is that I have always been and seem to naturally be alone on my path.... It is a mostly alone path, lonely to most before awakening. Seems like it's been that way at least for thousands of years. Despite certain predictions of a new spiritual age, I see no indication that it's going to change any time soon. You can't do the work for another but it seems a traveling companions should be possible, even desirable.

Speaking for myself, I did it alone, there was no one to go to, no one even close to understanding. I grew up in Christian based USA. There were also some atheists who lacked the religious aspect but were no more awake than the Christians. Note that I am not saying Christians can't wake up, just that they weren't awake. This lack of anyone to talk to haunted me well into adulthood. Even now there are only a couple.

Part of the reason I post here is trying to find others. When I joined there were even fewer awake than now. This thread was started as the result of one awakening. I continue to search and hope for more companionship. I hope you find a better answer as I'd like to know.

[Timotheus]

:D

[Hastor]

But then would i not become a reflection of myself?
I have known few who have reflected within themselves to the point that they had no one to tell them whether an idea or revelation was close to what the truth is. I fully understand the weakness of allowing yourself to exist in a state where all of your conclusions must be second checked, but I also understand the safety. I knew a man that was only left with himself and without a negative to force him to reconcile his thoughts with reason he ended up barely clothed on a flight from colorado with only a blanket as his luggage. It is obvious that there are many who have gone insane, but without people to provide reflection of a different sort they bought in to their own thoughts until the were wrapped within their own delusions. I ama special case, but ONLY because I have done extensive research and exercises so as to condition myself to lite afire all my ideas till only the purest unburnning metal remains. I call this the curcible concept.

Even though I have the crucible I can only do so much in my present state. I want someone to talk to about what I'm in (emphasis on the word WANT instead of NEED). All I want is someone who can understand the language I speak. Someone who can tell me their thoughts. I will most likely end up where I was before, but it would be nice to have someone to ease the dark nights. All I want is another mind who can understand my words. Someone who can check my thoughts. I can only carry so much a burden at the moment. I could shoulder all of existance alone if the situation desired, but I want something for once to allow me some sleep. Nietzche knows what it feels like to stay awake too long, and now I know the bruden of understanding how long and lonely the wakeing nights can be.

Thanks,
Hastor

[Tom]

http://deeptrancenow.com/books_exc3.htm

Dr. Laura De Giorgio seems brilliant to me so far. We'll have to wait a few years to see if I still think so, but the thing is I think she is the real thing: someone who has done the things she teaches.

[Timotheus]

:D

[CFTraveler]

But then would i not become a reflection of myself?
I have known few who have reflected within themselves to the point that they had no one to tell them whether an idea or revelation was close to what the truth is. I fully understand the weakness of allowing yourself to exist in a state where all of your conclusions must be second checked, but I also understand the safety. I knew a man that was only left with himself and without a negative to force him to reconcile his thoughts with reason he ended up barely clothed on a flight from colorado with only a blanket as his luggage. It is obvious that there are many who have gone insane, but without people to provide reflection of a different sort they bought in to their own thoughts until the were wrapped within their own delusions. I ama special case, but ONLY because I have done extensive research and exercises so as to condition myself to lite afire all my ideas till only the purest unburnning metal remains. I call this the curcible concept.

Even though I have the crucible I can only do so much in my present state. I want someone to talk to about what I'm in (emphasis on the word WANT instead of NEED). All I want is someone who can understand the language I speak. Someone who can tell me their thoughts. I will most likely end up where I was before, but it would be nice to have someone to ease the dark nights. All I want is another mind who can understand my words. Someone who can check my thoughts. I can only carry so much a burden at the moment. I could shoulder all of existance alone if the situation desired, but I want something for once to allow me some sleep. Nietzche knows what it feels like to stay awake too long, and now I know the bruden of understanding how long and lonely the wakeing nights can be.

Thanks,
Hastor I recommend you talk with wstein, who is the only person (at least lately) that I have met who actually wants to talk about it with a like soul.

[CFTraveler]

satan is merely a word describing this partial worldly manifestation born of fullness, which stubbornly holds onto its worldly halfcocked notion of self; and thus the unrest within caused, disrupts the forced minimal self into derision, seen as outlying blame from most, yet in time it effectively penetrates the delusion where at center of it all (You), one comes face to face with shadowed truths long ignored.

one often wallows in their prized speciality of case, however, one eventually has to stand back up and step out of the mudhole of self-contempt. Another one for posterity.

[SP3]

But then would i not become a reflection of myself?
I have known few who have reflected within themselves to the point that they had no one to tell them whether an idea or revelation was close to what the truth is. I fully understand the weakness of allowing yourself to exist in a state where all of your conclusions must be second checked, but I also understand the safety. I knew a man that was only left with himself and without a negative to force him to reconcile his thoughts with reason he ended up barely clothed on a flight from colorado with only a blanket as his luggage. It is obvious that there are many who have gone insane, but without people to provide reflection of a different sort they bought in to their own thoughts until the were wrapped within their own delusions. I ama special case, but ONLY because I have done extensive research and exercises so as to condition myself to lite afire all my ideas till only the purest unburnning metal remains. I call this the curcible concept.

Even though I have the crucible I can only do so much in my present state. I want someone to talk to about what I'm in (emphasis on the word WANT instead of NEED). All I want is someone who can understand the language I speak. Someone who can tell me their thoughts. I will most likely end up where I was before, but it would be nice to have someone to ease the dark nights. All I want is another mind who can understand my words. Someone who can check my thoughts. I can only carry so much a burden at the moment. I could shoulder all of existance alone if the situation desired, but I want something for once to allow me some sleep. Nietzche knows what it feels like to stay awake too long, and now I know the bruden of understanding how long and lonely the wakeing nights can be.

Thanks,
Hastor

If it's companionship you’re looking for try harmony central or a dating company to find a likeminded companion. Join a book club, or participate in seminars where people gather for the same reason.

Don't expect anyone to remove the burden for you, stop pursuing something that is painful or causes you unnecessary discomfort. Even moderating your intake with other unrelated activities to balance it out will help you feel better.

Only keep what you benefit from, let go of knowing everything, and only take what comes one step at a time...

[Hastor]

Like all things this to shall pass. What it was was just a phase in which I could not allow myself the solitude I needed. To tell the truth, I must apologize for that other post. It was only in a moment of weakness that I let slip the truth of my situation. Like the steady eb and flow of the tides I have those feelings of being alone, but one day the tide will come in for a little longer. Before long the water will stay and the memory of the weakness I had will be my only burden.

Thanks,
Hastor

[CFTraveler]

That moment of weakness was a necessary part of your development, so I hope when you do look back on it, you do so with fondness.

[Timotheus]

:D

[Timotheus]

:D

[CFTraveler]

Ok how about "with people who are going through the same or a similar process"?

[SP3]

Ok how about "with people who are going through the same or a similar process"?

I have, and after 10 years still am. When I meditated allot I had allot of experiences which isolated me from my friends, family and rest of the world. This awareness forced me to see truths about things I would rather not know and experiences that really didn't benefit me in any way. So I stopped meditating, projecting consciously and stopped developing any other metaphysical abilities I was experiencing. Although it didn't stop anything, just minimized the experiences, my awareness kept growing.

The only thing I can honestly say I have benefited from is my relationship with the divine. I am able to take notice of it more in my daily life, and connect with it in the way it has shown me which keeps me balanced, answers my questions and guides things into my life.

I believe awareness to recognize metaphysical and physical events which are abnormal, and even being able to connect the dots is all very challenging to live with. Even more challenging is to deal with it around others who aren't experiencing what you are. It can be very isolating, but now and then I have met people I could talk to who have had experiences they can relate with. I know if I prayed to meet someone like minded chances are I will. The thing is I don’t want to meet someone else like me; I want people to take me away from me…because being me is a full time job.

[CFTraveler]

As you may have figured out it's not a mystery to be solved- it's just what it is. Or something like that.
I am one of those people who do not like to talk about it. In fact, sometimes the theme annoys me for some reason.
I only respond to questions when I feel someone is stuck and needs answers to some specific thing about it.
But other than that, I don't enjoy the intercourse.
-And Beavis said "She said intercourse"- Hee hee huh huh...

[SP3]

As you may have figured out it's not a mystery to be solved- it's just what it is. Or something like that.
I am one of those people who do not like to talk about it. In fact, sometimes the theme annoys me for some reason.
I only respond to questions when I feel someone is stuck and needs answers to some specific thing about it.
But other than that, I don't enjoy the intercourse.
-And Beavis said "She said intercourse"- Hee hee huh huh...

Actually, in my case it is a mystery to be solved. I notice I get allot of hints, but no straight forward direct answers, or have to connect the dots to allot of different experiences to discover it could have been a simple yes. I believe in simplicity, and having to figure things out which could be simple and straight forward upsets me. In fact when things become overcomplicated It makes me question the source and whether to listen to it, even if it predicts the future and comes true.

Then again it could be a way of conditioning me to see truths in lies, because otherwise you wouldn’t be able to recognize them.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

Hastor (and anybody else struggling with the whole isolation thing),

What I'd recommend, based on what has worked for me, is working on the heart chakra as well as your connection with your higher self.

Here in 3D, we and the people we're closely connected to, are literally all over the map, both geographically and in spiritual understanding. I've got theories on why that is, but in any case it's not great for the social life of anybody who ventures very far in their spirituality. Nonetheless, we're social beings, and repressing that aspect of ourselves, rather than finding a healthy way to express it, has consequences. If many sources, including my own experience is to be believed though, the isolation from support and likeminded folks in 3D is by design -- which only means we need to get creative and find a way around it.

When you cultivate the heart chakra and HS connection though, it's possible to get a strong feel for what I call "spiritual family" -- those individuals your HS is still closely associated with, post-(insert your term of choice for "getting out of here"). You can get a sense of them from here; both their HS's, and their 3D incarnations, if they're here at this time.

In my experience those people usually end up being those that I have a strong affinity for here, though there have been a few surprises. There are people I've met only in passing that my HS is close with, and people who have figured prominently in this life with whom he apparently has no further affiliation. I believe that working on these connections also brings the energy of the higher selves of my other associates (for lack of a better term) "down to earth" in a sense, so if they haven't necessarily cultivated their own connections, they'll at least get some sense of it through their earthly association with myself. This may help account for a few surprises I've had with these people popping out with things I wouldn't have expected from them, and showing sudden signs of moving in the direction I'd expect from the sense I get of their HS.

In any case, cultivating this sense of "spiritual family" has given me something I can tap into that takes away a lot of the "craving" and sense of isolation. Sure, it'd still be nice to make some more connections at a human level who could at least hold a conversation on a lot of the things I'm interested in and involved with, spiritually speaking. But this way, a signiicant amount of my thoughts and energy are no longer being pulled in that direction; I feel more free to get on with what I'm here for, knowing that the whole social thing will sort itself out, possibly while still here, but definitely once I've moved on.

[i_am_beth]

Hastor (and anybody else struggling with the whole isolation thing),

What I'd recommend, based on what has worked for me, is working on the heart chakra as well as your connection with your higher self.

I completely agree with working with the heart chakra. I spent several years working with the energy of Kwan Yin, developing a strong sense of compassion on a 3D level - and through that beginning to let go of judgment. I believe that it's through the heart that we feel our connection to "others" most easily.

Something else that helped soothe me, when I was first beginning this awakening process, is to work with my inner child. I imagined myself as a small child, crying or angry or whatever I was dealing with at the time, and comfort her. Surprisingly enough, I found I could comfort myself - often when people around me could not.

I also remember that it's all story - my story, your story, our story, and though it feels oh so real, one day we'll wake up and realize who we really are.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

I completely agree with working with the heart chakra. I spent several years working with the energy of Kwan Yin, developing a strong sense of compassion on a 3D level - and through that beginning to let go of judgment. I believe that it's through the heart that we feel our connection to "others" most easily.

Totally. *nod*

In the past I was always seen and treated as unapproachable no matter *what* I did to appear friendly and all that other recommended "how to win friends and influence people(tm)" stuff. :P The real change happened when I discovered that my heart chakra was literally encased in the energetic-blockage equivalent of a superfortress that I hadn't known about, got rid of that, and made a habit of beaming heart-stuff to others. For you 80's kids, it's a lot like the Care Bear Stare, though I try not to think about that. *ahem* Long story short, others now approach me just as often as not, without me having to make any overt attempt to do anything other than make sure the energy's crankin'.

As an aside I think all too often those of us who are spiritual tend to assume that others won't be receptive by default -- I know I've had that tendency, anyway. After getting the heart stuff working though, I've been pleasantly surprised by people I wouldn't have suspected; sometimes even random people will pop out with something first, without knowing anything about me or what I'm into. o_O I've been a bit too preoccupied lately to focus much on the heart-networking side of things, but I've at least seen enough to know that when I swing back around to focusing on social stuff more, that'll be the way to go.

I also wanted to say that while it may be rare to find someone who can demonstrate a deep understanding of all or most of one's own individual process, it may be worth considering that there can be value in different people being able to connect and resonate with different facets. I do happen to be lucky to have someone that I share a whole lot with, but beyond that, if someone can genuinely connect with even a relatively small part of who I am and what I'm about, then that's something to be valued too IMO.

[wstein]

I can offer a few suggestions for the near ones.

If you approach this by asking questions, you must be willing to accept the answer no matter what it might be. Further you must try to ask all questions, no matter how absurd they may seem to be. One of my favorites is "have you considered the possibility that you exist?"

I can pretty mush assure you that its not anything like you think it is (while asleep). After awakening, its still not like anything you think, but you realize that what you think is not that relevant.

If you have things you wonder about, try traveling to them yourself (projection, phasing, lucid dreaming, whatever). Do not rely on second hand accounts as descriptions are not anywhere near a complete experience. Most concepts also have a place where they can be 'seen' in operation. A perennial favorite is a place of pure consciousness. Having a landscape to explore is at least helpful for the mind (even if the place is imaginary). For instance, if you wonder who created the universe, go find out.

Come to terms that you might lose everything. I know, its not that easy. Its still hard for most to deal with the fear and panic even with preparation. The part that will go away when you actually awake wasn't there to start with. Its no different than waking from a dream.

The hardest part to deal with is the starkness of it all. The whole rich world just crumbles to dust leaving frighteningly little. During the process it seems like nothing will be left. I don't know if a warning will help but I thought it worth a try.

Know that it can be done, as witnessed by several that have awoken recently and have kindly shared their experience here.

[ButterflyWoman]

I can pretty mush assure you that its not anything like you think it is (while asleep).
*nod* This has been one of the most difficult things for me to adjust to.


After awakening, its still not like anything you think, but you realize that what you think is not that relevant.
:) :D :lol:


Come to terms that you might lose everything.
*nod* And by "everything", that means, literally, EVERYTHING. Every belief, every concept, everything you "know", everything you want, everything you think you need to survive, all of it.


Its no different than waking from a dream.
And going with that same metaphor, it can take some time to become really fully "awake", in the sense that you're completely alert and functioning fully. Many of us need a cup of coffee or a shower or a morning walk or breakfast or all of the above before we really feel entirely "awake". It's not that different with spiritual awakening. It can take a while to rub the sleep out of your eyes, so to speak.


The hardest part to deal with is the starkness of it all.
Yes. That and the silence of the mind. For some people, that may not be an issue. For me, it's been (and still is) a rather strange adjustment. I spent most of my life with a very noisy mind, always chattering, often with more than one "voice", and sometimes all at the same time. To have my mind fall into silence is... well, it's peaceful, but it's strange. Ever notice how when the power goes out, your home becomes very, very quiet? All the humming and clicking and whirring of various appliances and so forth just stops, and everything is quiet... It's peaceful, but it's disconcerting.

Also, although it sounds kind of bleak, I don't really experience it as such. It's just... different. Stark is a good word. It is empty, too, but not necessarily in a bad way. So hard to put it into words...

As weird as it can get, I still have to say I wouldn't go back. The Truth is worth any price, even if the cost is "everything". The Truth is always better than a lie, no matter how entertaining, distracting, beautiful, or otherwise alluring the lie (or illusion).

Also please note, I'm not claiming "to be enlightened". I will never claim such a thing. I don't even know what it's supposed to mean, so I don't have any idea how I would know if I was it. I just am, and I see, more and more as the illusion of linear time passes, and that's all I can say about the matter.

[i_am_beth]

OlderWiser wrote:
Also please note, I'm not claiming "to be enlightened".
(not getting the quote function to work properly today...)

Response: As long as we have separation/duality/3D there will always be a continuum. Always greater and lesser. So each of us is more awake and less awake than "others."

[ButterflyWoman]

Understood. But I was mostly saying that in a slightly tongue-in-cheek way because I know full well the way people tend to react to things of this sort. I was preemptively heading off any accusations or arguments that might arise from those who want to bicker and nitpick what I write because, in their personal view, I'm "not enlightened". ;) :P

As I said, I will never make such a claim. It's not something that can even BE attained. This little avatar of self whose mind is used to write these posts cannot possibly grasp the whole of the truth of Reality, so it's certainly true that "I" am not enlightened, nor will "I" ever be. It's simply not possible. This mind can be expanded, altered, detached, and various other changes may occur in order to make it more possible for Source to operate through it, yes, but that's only what it is, and nothing more.

8)

[CFTraveler]

I can pretty much assure you that its not anything like you think it is (while asleep). After awakening, its still not like anything you think, but you realize that what you think is not that relevant. Exactly. This is pretty much at the center of how I think about it.

[joneagle_27]

I kind of stumbled upon this post by accident. I have mixed feelings and I guess I'm a sissy! LOL. One of my favorite books in the world is THE WAY OF THE PEACEFUL WARRIOR by Dan Millman. He basically said the same thing... about illusions. The question I have about illusions is this. For someone that has not reached the depth that most of you have, do they need to? I mean right now I'm pretty depressed reading this. It basically states that there is no purpose in life! Nothing! Just live! Be kind, silly, accepting, nice, mean, rude, disconnected, selfish, depressed, sad, jovial... whatever you want to be. There is no destiny. There is no final point to the end. So spirit guides, planes of existence, extraterrestrials, angels, people that Trance Chanel are all an ILLUSION!? *&!??? That stabbing question that I have always had in my gut since conceived "Why are we here?", the answer is EXPERIENCE! THAT'S IT?

[CFTraveler]

Remember that illusion doesn't mean it's not happening, it means what is happening isn't what you think it is.
As for all the other stuff we talk about (spirit guides, etc.) can be considered part of it, because existence of any kind implies some sort of manifestation, and manifestation requires perception, and as far as we humans know, all of the information isn't available for us, as of now, just the understanding that it is not all it is.
So when we say 'illusion' and 'not real' it doesn't mean ultimately 'not real', because the word ultimate, eternal, etc. implies the wholeness that doesn't seem to be inherent in manifestation.
But the thing is, that if we are here, is for some reason. Even if that reason doesn't make sense from the point of view of eternity, it makes sense from the point of view of being.
So it's not meaningless, it's just not meaningful in a transcendent way.
So do you need to wake up as some seem to have done? Not at all, because of all this transcendent not-knowing, it is apparent to me that it is perfectly valid to attach significance to some important aspect of being (such as I have done, BTW) and live your life that way.
So it doesn't have to be meaningless, it's just that you have the choice to make it meaningful.
Dig?

[joneagle_27]

So there is no need to search enlightenment because at our stand point or human perspective, we will not receive the universal answer. Where we are we just cannot comprehend or understand. The only thing that we do know is that the source is now! That's it and that's all that matters.

[ButterflyWoman]

We can't comprehend it with our human mind, not really. But it can be experienced with other aspects of Self, and our mind can observe (though it never fully comprehends nor can it reduce it to a concept or an idea or a thought or a description).

[Hastor]

We can't comprehend it with our human mind, not really. But it can be experienced with other aspects of Self, and our mind can observe (though it never fully comprehends nor can it reduce it to a concept or an idea or a thought or a description).

I agree entirely. I always feel a twinge of annoyance when I hear that we cannot comprehend or understand one thing or another. I know that based just upon our senses we will never be able to find what we want of this life in so far as we might go in search of answers. On the other hand, regardless of experiance, I would like to think that we can know all, be all, and understand all. This might take more than just a lifetime and it might not necessarily be enlightenment, but once we are there we won't need legs to stand. We might not even be anymore. We could be all as one or there could be only one through which we all are. I'm really seeing this with half my mind closed right now so it's not coming through very clear, but there will be a time, if not only a possibility for such, that I (we, they, it, and the languages we hold continue to fail me) will be as I am. I will see through the glass clearly and know as I am known. If only to live for tomorrow so that day might come, so that I might be there. Where everything is beautiful and nothing hurts.

[farewell2arms]

Hello everyone, I have a question I would like to ask.

I have read some of the earliest posts in this thread. There enlightenment is described not as bliss, but almost as a dull state. Why then would I want to achieve it? What is the motivation that keeps enlightened people moving forward? Why do they aspire to help others reach enlightenment?

Or have I misunderstood? Perhaps this is entirely my ego talking, trying to persuade me of it's importance, keeping me in my deluded state.

I feel like the closer I get to understanding the world, the less interesting everything gets. This is kind of breaking my heart. I imagined I would find more love and bliss, the more I understood of the world. I feel like I'm missing something. I have detected a large blockage over my heart chakra using NEW, that might be a factor in this.

What I want is to experience love and bliss. The buddhist nirvana. I also want to see the beauty in in everything, from every living being, all at once. I want to relive every life on earth, experience everything everyone has done, see the beauty in every point of perception. I want to experience all the joy gathered through the ages accumulated.

But at the same time, I cannot deny myself, if I am something else also.

What do I do?

[SP3]

Even Nirvana is just an experience, a perfect master walks among ordinary men and live ordinary lives, they are not kings or presidents, or bath themselves in riches.

Enlightenment is a tool to make good decisions for yourself and lead by example for those around you.

I remember a movie The Razors Edge, a Bill Murray asked his teacher before leaving the monastery and return back home "it's easy to be holy man on top of a mountain".

I now try to balance Buddhism meditation practice with the Christ’s example for living. Meditate on the heart, breath love and compassion in and out. Love all things with compassion, even the rocks and the insects, and make all your efforts to help others, and the world. Even a simple email to the right person can produce positive change for all of us. Turn your attention towards positive change and solutions to even the biggest of problems.

[Tutor]

"it's easy to be holy man on top of a mountain".

nice quote, and amen to that! i'm gonna check out that movie, never heard of it.

tim

[farewell2arms]

SP3: I will do this meditation. Thanks.

But I still don't understand the motivation. What drives you forward? Why transform into nothingness?

Even suffering is better than nothingness, at least there is also joy and bliss often in my world now, now that I'm not enlightened.

And buddha said the only way to truly experience real bliss is enlightenment, was he lying?

Are my only two options in the world suffering or nothingness? Are you guys saying that there is nothing satisfying ever to be achieved? That meditation ceases to be blissful?

[SP3]

"Why transform into nothingness?"

I don't believe in that, I believe Nirvana is oneness not nothingness...but even that I don't really believe is right.

I believe in perfection and following in the footsteps of a true master towards perfection. I want to be the Image God Intended.

In a world filled with so many problems you can appreciate how much help it needs. Being aware of ways to help others, helps the world evolve in a positive direction instead of towards self destruction were there is no future.

Make it a routine to practice selfless acts and find ways to improve in those directions, and use your gifts to help those around you and those far away from you.

I believe that following the Buddhist practice of meditation of the heart combined with Christ’s teachings is the best combination. Both believe in selflessness, love and compassion for all things. It develops a more intimate relationship with god as well. Listen to your dreams because from time to time God will pop in and teach you something. Don't just talk the talk, but walk the walk...and lead by example.

Check out the 7 heavenly Virtues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virt ... ly_virtues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virtues#Seven_heavenly_virtues)

[CFTraveler]

I'd like to chime in, if y'all will allow me.
Hey, SP3, we double posted.


But I still don't understand the motivation. What drives you forward? Why transform into nothingness? It's not that you transform into nothingness, is that you realize what the value of what we call material reality vs. infinite bliss- it can't be quantified, so some call it nothingness- but it's not nothingness, it just can't be described in terms of quantity. To some, nothing and infinity is the same, because they are unquantifiable, but it really isn't the same- with nothingness, nothing ever was there, with infinity everything was there, even if in terms of the unquantifiable, it was just a dream.


Even suffering is better than nothingness, And this goes to the core of what ancient sages have been saying- that material reality is what happens when you want to experience (the body(bodies) being the result of desire. While there is desire there will be the experience of the material. It has nothing to do with good or bad, it is simply the desire to experience.


at least there is also joy and bliss often in my world now, now that I'm not enlightened. And bless you for that.


And buddha said the only way to truly experience real bliss is enlightenment, was he lying? He wasn't lying. But what he was also saying is that suffering is not living, suffering is being attached to living. That's what the middle way is- you see, in his time there were many ascetes teaching that the way to enlightenment was to leave the body behind, to leave the world behind, and have nothing. The Buddha realized this was not so- that ascetics are as attached to their suffering as much as hedonists are attached to their pleasure, and are both equally destined to stay on the wheel- that the real problem was the attachment to this reality (or any reality, really) that it is not renunciation of the world which brings liberation, is coming to the realization that attachment to the outcome is what causes suffering, therefore to realize what the world is (illusion) is to attain enlightenment (or the path to enlightenment) -that it is not necessary to give life and love and things up, but to not be attached to them any more- to take or leave it equally is what is required to stop suffering.



Are my only two options in the world suffering or nothingness? Are you guys saying that there is nothing satisfying ever to be achieved? That meditation ceases to be blissful? No- meditation ceases to be blissful when you think you have attained the sense of no-being, and there is nothing else to do.
The problem is that some people think that they have realized enlightenment when they believe they have unattached themselves to the world, but the sense of 'now what?' is also a form of attachment- they are really not done- because of this sense of 'now what'? Is a form of desire, and the wheel keep on turnin'.

[CFTraveler]

BTW, I agree with SP3's advice- do good things, because when you realize you don't have to be attached to the world, you realize it's a wonderful gift, if you make it so. And you make it so by doing good deeds.
Jesus wasn't kidding when he said "Do unto others...."

[wstein]

Well farewell2arms I've got good news and bad news. Your observation about things becoming dull is correct (after the panic of the transition subsides). You have not misunderstood.

For most the realization comes like an avalanche. Once started little control is possible. Most commonly this shift follows a long attempt to seek truth (or something similar). At some point something gives and the 'glamour' of the world is lost.

Why bother is a question often asked in the 'enlightened state'. Really the revelation is somewhat of a letdown in that way. I will flatly state that love and bliss are not the direct result of this effort. Love and bliss (and much else) are actually false ideas about 'nirvana'. This enlightenment is about really perceiving that all is of the same nature, in fact all are just parts of a singular (thing). There is a lot of baggage associated with separation and the belief that things are inherently separate. When you realize that there is no separateness, the bright contrasts and conflicts go away. After a fair amount of outrage and disillusionment, one can start to appreciate the beauty of the elaborate finery of the way the one expresses itself. This inevitably leads to less stimulation (drama and trauma) making the world seem less vibrant at first. That is replaced with an inner peace and sense of well being. Though fewer things seem to need doing, those you still choose to do take so much less effort to accomplish.

Taking this step is definitely incompatible with wanting to 'relive every life on earth'. You would quickly realize that in a way you already are living all those lives, and secondly that lives are not really that different so there is no need to repeat the same thing in all its possible variations. It's about the living not the details of the situation that is of substance.

I do not see any compelling reason why enlightenment is needed. Really this is just a choice you can make at this point. If you wait until afterwards, you really can't go back. Do you really want nirvana or do you like what you have now?

My personal advice: if you don't REALLY want it, I suggest taking another path.

[Tutor]

Oneness, "He is One, and His Name is One".

not sure I am all that crazy about the gender fixedness, but the ancient statement reveals the process of Nature that Name arises from. but it depends upon one who may see the symbolic nature behind all the written names/words which present a literal story.

we must see the present twofold, that while darkness is lifting, the early mists (gathering) are upon the water for a foggy mourn, and that just as in nature the dawning light will in due time prevail upon the waters to lift and evaporate the mists for the pristene reflection (beautific vision) long hidden from our view.

do not the birds begin singing even before darkness would release it's hold and flee? yet, the birds have certainty, and man has certainly forgotten (how) to live one day at a time.

[i_am_beth]

The problem is that some people think that they have realized enlightenment when they believe they have unattached themselves to the world, but the sense of 'now what?' is also a form of attachment- they are really not done- because of this sense of 'now what'? Is a form of desire, and the wheel keep on turnin'.

I get the "why bother" and the "now what" well. As time goes on, I become more and more the observer and am able to avoid drama and trauma. I can stay out of "story" pretty well - both mine and others. I'm still pretty attached to sensation, friends and family, animals, nature, and beauty in all forms tho. Oh well. Still a long way to go. Looking for the time slips and astral jumps that come so frequently now. : )

[farewell2arms]

Well. It seems like I have been afraid of love not existing. I still am, but I have made some headway... a lot of pain yesterday, and some suicidal thoughts. All better now, though. I'm not a quitter =). Though love still exists in my life. Meditation is still bliss.

What I primarily have learned from this is that I cannot take anything for granted. Love is still in my life though. I think this is because I cannot comprehend the level which this discussion is taking place, at my current "stage". I think this is because the words you use have different meanings to you than to me, because I lack personal experience in this area.

The avalanche you speak of, has already been set in motion for me. I have been on a search for truth my whole life. I didn't realize this until a few weeks back. Things seems to move so fast, now. Three months ago, I read my first Robert Bruce book and had no experience, and now, I can almost perceive people as a part of me. This will continue, I'm sure. There's no turning back for me. =)

What I feel more strongly now is that my pain is nothing compared to the suffering of the world today. I have had my eyes closed to this. People think their pain is real, and as long as they think that, it is real to them, and this needs to stop. I've really been stuck in my ego, thinking only of myself.

[ButterflyWoman]

Well. It seems like I have been afraid of love not existing.
It exists as much as anything else does.


The avalanche you speak of, has already been set in motion for me. I have been on a search for truth my whole life.
Yes, I understand. My entire life has been dedicated to the search for the Divine. I didn't fully understand that until I was in my thirties, but it certainly is the case. Everything else has always been secondary.

With regard to your pain, it's caused in part by resistance. When I was in excruciating pain once, I got a message: Embrace the pain. I thought it was bizarre, but I had been in barely tolerable pain for several days (severe tooth infection, no way to get out to a dentist), and so I did what I was told, and I moved right into the pain. I found that when I stopped fighting it and stopped judging it, I could perceive it as something else, as just "strong sensation". I learned a great deal from that episode, and I can tell you that it works on emotional/mental pain as well. It's worth trying.

[wstein]

Well. It seems like I have been afraid of love not existing. I still am, but I have made some headway... a lot of pain yesterday, and some suicidal thoughts. All better now, though. I'm not a quitter =). Though love still exists in my life. Meditation is still bliss.

What I primarily have learned from this is that I cannot take anything for granted. Love is still in my life though. I think this is because I cannot comprehend the level which this discussion is taking place, at my current "stage". I think this is because the words you use have different meanings to you than to me, because I lack personal experience in this area.

The avalanche you speak of, has already been set in motion for me. I have been on a search for truth my whole life. I didn't realize this until a few weeks back. Things seems to move so fast, now. Three months ago, I read my first Robert Bruce book and had no experience, and now, I can almost perceive people as a part of me. This will continue, I'm sure. There's no turning back for me. =) This is one of the few places you don't have to be completely isolated in this process. As you can see, your situation is being responded to.

Understanding is really not necessary. As you start to come out the other side, things that were impossible to understand become obvious. That does not necessarily mean you will understand afterward.

For most there come waves after waves of shocking awarenesses. The reality you once thought real is not even close to the way things actually are. It will almost literally fall apart revealing what you were unable to see before. Don't worry, though reality won't look anything like you know it new, it doesn't all go away. There are several on these forums that have come out the other side. They still live in the same world you do but they see it in a whole different way. Ones concept of love and what it is will undergo a similar transformation. Love is real but probably not what you thought it to be.

As to suicide, don't bother with that now. You have already set things in motion, you might as well find out what's under the wrapping before you decide about living.

Things are a whole lot more stable on the 'other' side.

[SP3]

There are evil spirits or entities which place thoughts and feelings inside of you to defeat you. This is why meditation is so important, to help you step back from thoughts and feelings which are not yours. It makes you more aware of what is going on in front of you in all areas of life.

[farewell2arms]

Thanks everyone. I find strength in your words. You're the best.

And many thanks to you Cat, for the wisdom about pain, I will remember this.

SP3: I have suspected this, that I might have been carrying a neg for quite some time. I think its been integrated in me since childhood, popping out now and then and presenting me with images of "what it would be like to hurt others that I care about". It's been growing weaker lately, and Practical Psychic self-defense helps me a lot with this. I preform active countermeasures with the images in trance (the sword and the flaming torch). I thought I had driven it out on several occations, but it keeps coming back. I'll deal with it though now that I know what it is. It's an important lesson also, since I now now what it's like for others that have the same problem.

[SP3]

Part of enlightenment is the ability to recognize things that seem out of place...no matter how much I may think I progress I still have cracks in my armor which are attacked...they are very smart in defeating your spirit...kind of like it’s their purpose.

I remember once in the astral; one would follow me around offering me things or telling me to do things hidden in the shadows. I turned to it and was compassionate towards it because I understood its nature and what it was doing. There are angels which are hidden, pointing you in the right directions just like there are also fallen angels that do the same but point you in the wrong directions. I often will feel or think something out of nowhere and for no reason...and when I try to back track where it came from...there are no tracks.

The mediation or prayer I gave you seems to be the best thing. It is also a secret method mentioned by Paramahansa Yogananda in ‘autobiography of a yogi’, and again in Max Freedom Longs ‘The Kaunas’, my friend even taught me it accidently, then finally Christ taught me it 2 times in the astral to get it right…I believe God really wanted me to know this. And have been told it expands your consciousness and evolves your DNA.

If you have trouble with it play some music that invokes positive feelings but doesn’t distract you....like ambience music (check out Tetsu Inoue: World Reciever, or Brian Eno: On land). Once you find the tracks you like make a MIX CD or LOOP the songs which work. If you have trouble visualizing Love and compassion to feel throughout your whole being get a picture of someone like Christ…and imitate it, or rent a movie of Buddha or Christ and watch how the actors do it when emulating a master. Visualize yourself being that master and looking upon the world.

[RenBean]

[raises hand] I get it... :)

[yortyort]

Reading all of this seems somewhat right, but it would be so hard to fully accept it and throw my Christian beliefs to the side... Maybe I should meditate on this for a while. I think that for me, religion is more of a way to live your life than to live your afterlife, like almost everybody around me seems to think... I want to act more like Jesus, therefore, I think to give it up would be taking the love and goodness out of the world. Now I'm just thinking out loud, thanks for introducing a new idea :?: :) .
Troy

[CFTraveler]

You never have to throw anything to the side- the thing about beliefs is that when they don't work, you yourself come to that understanding, and the belief(s) are gone by themselves.

[yortyort]

I have read this over again and realized something I didn't before. I can't describe it but it's a deeper understanding of this concept if that's possible.
Kinda beside the point, but does anybody watch Fringe? lol The main character says his favorite book is "If You Meet Buddha on the Side of the Road, Kill Him" lol. I would like to try to get my hands on that book.

[CFTraveler]

I've missed some episodes, so, which side of the universe talks about this book?

[yortyort]

lol um Peter talks about it the normal universe I think

[Noobstorm]

I'm not sure if I understand the first post.. are you saying everything is god and everything is the source? I don't understand this. and what do you mean by experience?

Thanks

[yortyort]

It's saying how (This is how I think of it) God put us on Earth not to love, not to learn, but to just live. Life is whatever you make it and there is no deeper meaning to it. Some people choose to live as Christians, some choose to strive for "nirvana", and some choose to make life an adventure. There is no predestination. When he says God is everything, he means that God made everything and is the essence of everything. Most see God as a big man in the sky, but he is an entity, a spirit that fills everything and created everything. Now personally, I don't know how much I believe this but I undertsand it and struggle with it... Hope this helped :D
Troy

[Noobstorm]

Thank you :) This makes perfect sense to me so I will live by it, I was always confused on which way was the right way.

[yortyort]

No, don't take this as your truth that easily. The OA thought on this for a while and has decided that's what they believe. You believe whatever you want. It's called faith because nobody knows forsure what the divine is and there is no real way of finding out other than dying. If you want to believe this at least think about it for a while.
Troy

[Tutor]

No, don't take this as your truth that easily. The OA thought on this for a while and has decided that's what they believe. You believe whatever you want. It's called faith because nobody knows forsure what the divine is and there is no real way of finding out other than dying. If you want to believe this at least think about it for a while.
Troy

yes, each as a composite of most everything, even if ignorant of, is merely to accept themself as they presently are, which in turn opens the awareness to this moment of life where their being IS, this being not being in the past or the future, yet everybit conscious of that which as past and future stems from themself as plausible reciprocity of time's quantifiability to qualify that life which being would if present be wholey sentient within established. self-evident truth, wherefrom this constant and continuous flow, may step out pursuant of living 'as it is', or more importantly 'as one is'.

CFT states in a recent thread to a member, something like this..."don't hope, Know". I would add, from knowing thyself, understanding and forgiving what is to be known of thyself, accepting as if failure and/or success have no bearing; HOPE. this doesnt contrast with what CFT suggests, it merely places hope where HOPE belongs, in that stepping out from self-knowing.

for myself, i clearly see the 'mess' which accumulative of experiential evidence would behaviorally and most predictably step out into god-knows-what, for i surely havent one clue of what "I" do. therefore, i must exercise faith as a stance, step out in hope, and land in a charitable (of god) spot for faith to stand yet again. walking prayer

in effect, this actuates grace in the stead of a half-cocked self pursuant of experiential evidence alone. that's not to say that one half-cocked is not within the stablelizing actions of mercy and justice, it merely reveals a life with or without grace. as a cause, one requires grace as that which would bring change (behavioral/habitual) where one is incapable from that behavior to change said behavior. as a formula, faith - hope - charity/love

as far as belief goes, i might believe that of myself known as the cumulative 'mess', i may understand from my cluelessness that i am in need of god's grace, this forgiveness that is not sourcing from me but rather to and through me; however, as it through me is, I too, touching another have indeed, from a continual new stance, shared grace.

thus, in "be the change you wish to see in the world" (ghandi), he utilized this process, in choosing inaction within as action without, wherefrom his own behavioral/habitual human stimulations via experiential evidence were ignored, and around himself along with others, the standing ground round about was charitably set.

perhaps...

tim

[yortyort]

Yes, thank you Tim! Personally, I am a strong and faithful Christian, and my main goal in life, or what I think God put us here for is to become like Christ and to share God's grace. I am not sure what religion you practice, but I know that any theistic religion would not believe that experience is the meaning to life, not to say that the OA is atheist. I personally stray from the textbook Christianity and form my own beliefs and my own "God". This way the divine is closer to you instead of impossible to reach. Something to think about is that not even the writers of holy texts knew that what they were writing was true, they just believed it was. I feel that everyone around me practices religion for their afterlife... would you agree?... and that I practice to help others. These are just some thoughts and ideas I have made through deep thought and meditation. You are the only one who can find your God or "kill the Buddha" or become like Christ, and reading an article shouldn't change your life and faith. I probably just repeated myself alot but I think I cleared some things up.
Hope I helped. :D
Troy

[yortyort]

Hey Tim, What happened to your last post? Sorry, but just wondering. Also, I think we have very similar philosophies and would like to possibly discuss a bit more... PM me if you wish
Troy :D

[Tutor]

Hey Tim, What happened to your last post? Sorry, but just wondering. Also, I think we have very similar philosophies and would like to possibly discuss a bit more... PM me if you wish
Troy :D

Troy, i often delete what seems to me as a sensitive post (over the top). please forgive my rather delusional vs. paranoid canter or given pace. glad you read it before i deleted it. i used to PM, but as a rule i no longer PM. a sharing discussion is possible right here in this thread i suppose.

tim

[CFTraveler]

Hey Tim, What happened to your last post? Sorry, but just wondering. Also, I think we have very similar philosophies and would like to possibly discuss a bit more... PM me if you wish
Troy :D

Troy, i often delete what seems to me as a sensitive post (over the top). please forgive my rather delusional vs. paranoid canter or given pace. glad you read it before i deleted it. i used to PM, but as a rule i no longer PM. a sharing discussion is possible right here in this thread i suppose.

tim
Timmy!!!!
*Waves fist* I was going to quote it because I loved <parts> of it and you deleted it too quickly.

[yortyort]

ok lol!(: no problem

[Beentheredonethat]

I can't believe that after 4 years this thread is still going. :shock: It's taken a lot of twists and turns since 2007. I stopped reading it a long time ago, but I re-read my first post (yes, I am actually Tempestinateapot). The post still rings true to me. The only thing I would change is to swap the term "experience" for "creating". I would also better define the term "Illusion" as the illusion that we are separate from Source (God). People pray to a being who seems to be sitting in the sky, making judgements on everyone, when the truth is that we are not separated from either Source or each other. Your finger is not separate from your hand, your hand is not separate from your arm, your arm is not separate from your body. They are one complete whole. We are One complete Whole, creating (experiencing) in different directions.

It's a great thing to create. It's actually quite grand! It's just a wonderful thing when you can drop all fear and realize that there is no right or wrong way to create. Everything is ok. Believing in judgement is a fearful way to live. But, it's ok. It certainly isn't enlightened. Being enlightenend is understanding that the only "right" or "wrong" are the one's we make-up (or create). I live free of fear. I know that no matter what happens, no matter what I do, I cannot be separated from Source, because I am a part of Source. "God is in me" is not a term I take lightly.

[yortyort]

Hey btdt,
It's interseting how over that time you have somewhat changed your ideas, not that it's "wrong", but in a good way! Your post really made me think and now that you've revised it, I feel like it's very much what I think of the divine. RB uses that metaphor in AD about how a finger may think its seperate, but your body is a whole, just as everybody and God.
Thanks!
Troy

[wstein]

Hey TNT of olde, long time no see. . .

You clearly have brought practical benefit to realizing ‘oneness’ with source (god).

I realized a couple of years beck that while I am skilled at creating, I have mostly done it through increasing separation. Obviously more illusion is not what I want. Since then I have been trying to work out ways to reduce the illusion (increase unity).

Have you made any progress in practical application of oneness with things around you?
As per your description have you found ways for the hands to be, communicate, or work more directly with each other?

[Beentheredonethat]

Hi Walter! Life has taken some strange twists and turns in the last couple of years, and I've "experienced" some of the worst things that can actually happen to a human in those years. I've managed to come out of it, and actually flourish. While I'm fully aware of the illusion, I know it's possible to live in the illusion and yet not see the separateness. Kind of like living a double life, wanting to, and enjoying it. I figure I'm here (even though I tried not to be), so why not make the most of it? All of life is a stage, etc., etc., whatever the quote is. Why not be the actors, the director, the musicians, the prop guy, and the producer?

Regarding the term "enlightenment"...yes, I still think I am enlightened. I don't get hung up on words, taboos, or right and wrong. "Awakened", enlightened...they are just words. People put so much pressure on themselves to be politically correct, and not use words that seem to be loaded. I live beyond that. I don't think I am better than anyone else, more knowledgeable than anyone else, more experienced than anyone else. I'm just in a different place than most people. I see no separation between myself and others. I see my ego and rejoice in it. What fun to watch it, work with it, and use it. Embrace the bad experiences as you would the good experiences. They will come in handy, you will see.

I have no desire to sit on a park bench and live in bliss like Eckhart Tolle. I want to create in this world, not escape it. I want to create even the so called "bad" stuff. The good stuff has no meaning without the bad stuff.

I do think I am more aware than the majority of people living on earth. I don't subscribe to any religion or belief, I don't hope for a better world or a heavenly realm waiting for me. I know that this is the time, this is the place, this is where I'm supposed to be. I am content with that, and content with what comes next. I am excited about the next experience, the next world, the next... My soul group awaits the day I add my experiences to theirs.

There is a fabric that binds us all together. CFT would call that love. It can go by many names, it doesn't really matter. It exists. That's what's important. We are connected in ways that people can't imagine. I've seen it, I've experienced it on a scale so grand it almost destroyed my physical body. Never doubt that you are a part of it. Never doubt that you are surrounded with a fabric of beings who have only your best interests at heart. We are not alone. We will never be alone. We are part of a creation so immense that it never began and it will never end. No matter what happens, no matter how dark the night might be, you are not alone. Everything makes sense to me. I have no questions left, because every one that is important has been answered. I am left with only what I wish to create. I am humbled by the majesty of what we have all created together. Seems like I've said all of this before. Maybe I'm repeating myself. Ah well. It feels good to say it.
I love you, CFT.
Tempestinateapot

[yortyort]

Hi Tempest!
I'm very glad to hear how you have grown and changed and now have realized the truth you have been seeking for like I and everybody else look for endlessly :D . Hopefully I will become enlightened as you are somewhere along my path. So, what exactly do you mean by create? I'm not exactly sure... lol
Thanks,
Troy

[CFTraveler]

Troy, have you read the whole entire thread? It is painful to me to read it because it brings some painful memories, (and, it is not for everyone, which is why she put it in the title) but in the end you realize you can choose what you want to create for your life, and that you get to choose what life means to you. Sort of kind of.

I do warn that reading this whole entire thread can launch you into a depression, so be warned.

[yortyort]

Ok, I understand. Thanks CF :D Maybe I'll take some time over the weekend to read it all. It is quite long. Thank you for the warning, I am some what excited yet cautious to read it :D And I'll thank you in advance for everything you said in the thread
Your friend,
Troy

[wstein]

There is no 'bad' stuff, only your stuff.

[Tutor]

There is no 'bad' stuff, only your stuff.


hi Walter,

I do agree. There is only You and Your 'stuff'.

even to say, that the human emotion expressed is from source through You, therefore from you is your 'stuff'...to; or One God as source, is very much E-motional through all expressions, even as each expression is a ' you and your stuff' singularity of seeming separation often set toward division.

tim

[yortyort]

Hello everybody! :mrgreen:
It's been a few weeks since I've last posted, but I remember that I wanted to read this whole post to gain my actual opinion on this. Now I could only make it to page 5 or 6 and then read the last page, lol, but I think I know what I think about this. Now I have to agree with what Journeyman originally said and Tempest eventually realized, that we have to create, because I feel an almost sick feeling when I hear that we are hear to just to be ( or to experience) because like somebody said earlier, life would be a meaningless journey which also makes it seem that God or Source has no purpose or doesn't even exist.
I used to have much trouble with this thread because of fear of giving up my Christian beliefs, but have realized along my "path to the path" that Christianity doesn't explain hundreds of answers I'm looking for, so it can't be the full truth.
I have started my "destruction of the ego" as Tempest put it, but I have only just begun. Would enlightenment require destroying an ego, or knowing to control it and only allowing positive filters to be made?
I think my general outlook on this thread is that I believe in a God or source that is made up of everything, but don't believe we are just here to live and experience, but that answer only comes with enlightenment i suppose...
Please respond with your ideas. :D
Love and light
Troy

P.S. I seem to be all over the place but I always have trouble expressing my thoughts in words. :oops:
P.P.S. I am nowhere even close to understanding this thread completely, so I'll finish it another time and post my final opinion.

[CFTraveler]

In my opinion:

Would enlightenment require destroying an ego, Enlightenment would require shedding light on what we consider to be the truth. If the ego is seen as a negative, then it would automatically stop having any effect at all, because the truth (the light) would eliminate all thought of control. So though 'destruction' is not an active thing you do, what you consider negative about the ego would simply stop applying to your life.

or knowing to control it and only allowing positive filters to be made? Enlightenment may allow you to see that this which has no relevance to your life (no longer, anyway) does not need to be controlled- you might see that it didn't really exist anyway- so that filters are not necessary, because truth is the only thing that exists, therefore it's the only thing that has any impact in your life.
When you filter you attempt to take away. When you realize that there is nothing to take away then no filter is necessary.

And btw, I do not claim to be enlightened.

[Tutor]

the following as my interpretive pinings opining.

to say "just be" doesnt mean to stop doing or if doing go hog wild and pig crazy. it means to get in your own business/experiences, doing you. this does not contradict what Jesus prescribes, as he says that in the span of one day is sufficient evil. well that'd be your day as you preceive it as being presently before you.

well, if you're NOT just being in your lighted day, like tolle says 'in the now', then where are you, are you just being, or has the past undoables and the future plans for doing stolen you away. now, whatever enlightenment is, who knows, everyone has there own opinion. ultimately, those practicing 'enlightenment' would come to asking, "who is not enlightened?". given that, it is thrown into one's 'just being'.

being a christian is not walking about as if everyone with a different idea is a devil apt to tempt me away from my christian faith. being a christian is trusting in the Lord, and surely not trusting my fears that would see others as tempting commoditys.

it is always good to honor what our present sight/faith is, this is better than trying to reinvent oneself while their present true self hasn't yet been addressed. to address the present true self is to 'just be'. this present being is what god works with, god being no respector of "persons". to be still and know god

god knows you, and through god is one searched out, as one cannot truly see themself. being still, to just be in it, peace...be still. some say to just breathe, yet breathing is being, the breath is always in the present, regardless of where mind or heart is looking to be.

being a christian is seeing that in 'the word' is that which alerts one to just be you, and more importantly...how. this word does not bring contradiction to the table, nor does it identify outside itself contradictions brought to the table. it merely places one within their own unique and self-contradicting business. did Jesus dismiss Judas from the table, even as He knew of Judas' workings outwardly in play? the asnwer to that question is 'trust in the Lord', as the Lord apparently has all in hands...nailed to it without a doubt held.

is not the beginning of the christian way....just-i-fication, then pure-i-fication, the sanct-i-fication. therefore, personally, i intend to 'just' be that i may be just.

i cant tell you of the buddhists who can fluidly understand the christian word, most any given word; more so than may the majority of christians in practice of the word. what 'word' is not of god given? what is new under the sun? what can any man write that is not the recycling of ancient of days? where is there any original thought given of men alone?

a strong godly faith, belief in christ, sets one free to study all words, that such a study supports what is the fullness of godliness. godliness does NOT look into the world to dissect what the eye would see as ungodly, for justified godly eyes cannot but see justifying godliness.

this reasoning falls to the word that compares in and of the world to in the world of god. godliness doesnt extract itself from being in the world, it is the turning from of the world to of god. this right here is the reproof that in this life we are to with faithful sight see from of god and in world.

if one is of the world then being in the world certainly remains as the world against god...by and through that one's very sight judging. judgement is gods, therefore, of god in world, a faith strong enough to recognize forgiveness is at hand. Jesus cryed out, forgive them father, for they know not what they do. are we as christian followers to then judge the world unto condemnation? no, that is not following Jesus' invitation to follow with our own crosses beared up 'just' as he exemplified.

accepting this forgiveness, practicing this forgiveness, is being of a just god, to just be just in our world where we find ourselves as a multitude together. otherwise the Lord's Prayer is a divorce decree promoting absenteeism from just being as we are, ignorant and having no knowing of what we do, simply because, instead of halting to be present for a searching out, we've thought to run in our own unknowing judgements, of the world being.

no, it aint an easy way. why would it be easy, for very Christ took it to its finish, was it easy for Christ Jesus? no

if we expect an easy road, then surely it is within this easiness that so much hardship was endured by Jesus in His day of finish. furthermore, is why so much hardship is endured right now and right here, presently within this our day standing lighted before us, each within every of one body of people, god's people all.

truly, we only despair at the thought of our 'just being', because it commands us to face ourself alone with God Alone as that which searches us out. God does not respect persons, who one thinks that they are. God searches out the child, is gentle within the heart, a good Father and Mother...etc. though it is going to be distasteful/bitter when 'just'-i-fication reveals the child's estranging ways of misdirecting misunderstanding and ignorance, they having everybit been of the world for a time, the wool pulled over their childlike and innocent eyes. there is no blame toward judgement of that, there is only forgiveness and understanding toward being justified to just be you, a very unique and uniquely loved and loving child.

christians say, i see the light, meaning that which within their hearts are the convictions of uprightness, presently being and having been searched out of god's day of light within the light of day. buddhists speak of enlightenment that frees one from personal suffering that suffers their thoughted personage of a world soley founded of persons. these two pov's may mingle together without the outcome of having judged either as singularly wrong.

so, it is true..."warning...not for sissies".

tim

[CFTraveler]

being a christian is not walking about as if everyone with a different idea is a devil apt to tempt me away from my christian faith. being a christian is trusting in the Lord, and surely not trusting my fears that would see others as tempting commoditys. I like this.

[tempestinateapot2]

Sorry about resurrecting this thread, but it is often on my mind. A lot has changed since I first started this thread, and yet in many ways, nothing has changed. I still think that I am enlightened. All that enlightement is, is the knowledge that You, and Everything else is God. There is nothing that is not God (Source). When you come to that realization (to the point that it becomes a part of you), you have no more questions. You have arrived at enlightenment. You aren't some super being, you just understand. This isn't to say that you know everything. We can't at this stage on earth.

Destruction of the ego is a choice. It is a means to melting back into the Oneness, and not seeing or feeling the separation. It is not a depressing thing, but most would imagine that it is depressing. You do have to be ready to do this, though, because it means you will no longer feel yourself to be an individual...you will see all of life as an illusion that we are separate from God. I eventually came to the conclusion that I don't need to destroy my ego, I can see all of life as an illusion, and yet still function, using my ego as a means to create within this illusory world. I know that I am not separate from God, and that with every thought, every action, every choice I make, I am creating, right along with God. Our purpose is to experience and create. This will be true even when each of us has taken that step to meld back into the Oneness, and lose our individuality. It is the circle of life, but on a much grander scale than any of us can imagine. Love is the glue that binds us all together, because there is no separation between us. We, as humans, only think there is. Become enlightened, and you will see no separation...only Oneness.

[wstein]

Sadly, no one has dared follow in your footsteps in the last few years.

[tempestinateapot2]

What is it about saying that you are God (and everything else is) that has people so freaked out? Nothing could be simpler or more loving, and yet people tend to think of it as egotistical. It's the opposite...it's the the end result of dropping the human ego (which everyone will do sooner or later). Do people really think that they will carry with them the same individual ego/personality after re-incarnating, or even take it into the afterlife? Are people's ego's really so perfect and comforting that they can't imagine eternity without them? I am so baffled by this. I guess it's easier to hold on to old beliefs than to stretch your wings and dare to look at life in a different way.

From my perspective, there's not much more to be said on the subject. Either live in fear that your oh, so precious ego/personality won't go on forever, or rejoice in the idea that you will become One with Source, and let go of the human frailities that plague us through life after life. I guess most would say, "better the devil you know, than the one you don't". Personally, I don't live in that kind of fear, and don't wish it on anyone.

[Neil Templar]

What is it about saying that you are God (and everything else is) that has people so freaked out? Nothing could be simpler or more loving, and yet people tend to think of it as egotistical. It's the opposite...it's the the end result of dropping the human ego (which everyone will do sooner or later). Do people really think that they will carry with them the same individual ego/personality after re-incarnating, or even take it into the afterlife? Are people's ego's really so perfect and comforting that they can't imagine eternity without them? I am so baffled by this. I guess it's easier to hold on to old beliefs than to stretch your wings and dare to look at life in a different way.

From my perspective, there's not much more to be said on the subject. Either live in fear that your oh, so precious ego/personality won't go on forever, or rejoice in the idea that you will become One with Source, and let go of the human frailities that plague us through life after life. I guess most would say, "better the devil you know, than the one you don't". Personally, I don't live in that kind of fear, and don't wish it on anyone.

I don't understand the need to ask these questions, or why you would be baffled. If you're truly enlightened, you know exactly why people are the way they are... because they haven't reached "enlightenment" yet.
You were once in their shoes (weren't you?), and as such should surely be able to allow them to be at whatever stage of their individual journey they are at, without judging them for being there, right?

[tempestinateapot2]

Definitely not judging...just trying to make a point. More talking to myself than anything else. Neil said, "You were once in their shoes (weren't you?), and as such should surely be able to allow them to be at whatever stage of their individual journey they are at". Along my way, there were people who helped me to make the leaps in thought I've made, and lose my fear. Just trying to honor that. It took me decades to get where I am, and if I could help just one other person to lose their fear, well, that would be something. Besides, becoming enlightened doesn't mean one becomes perfect...just gains understanding. I'm clueless as to why you would say that I'm not allowing people to be at the stage they are. I don't have that kind of power over other people, and wouldn't want it if I could. Everyone's journey is in the same direction, and it's nice to know that we can give another a hand up.

[SiriusTraveler]

So if we are enlightened and all else is a big plus, all the experiencing, who gains from this experiencing? Me/you/we/God etc? And what is the gain, if there is a gain? Why experience if there is no gain, just for fun? Eternal experience = eternal fun only? Eternal fun for whom etc?

Just a few questions that arose when reading the original post. I'm thinking that all this experience must add up to something, however enlightened or not one might be. Or perhaps I'm not enough enlightened thus asking all these questions :)
At least I think I get the original posters message.

[CFTraveler]

"Gain" is a relative term. Terms like these lose meaning when you're talking about eternity and transcendence. I suggest you read at least five of the first pages to get a really good grasp on her process. I know, a lot of reading, and not all of it fun.

[poème]

What is it about saying that you are God (and everything else is) that has people so freaked out? Nothing could be simpler or more loving, and yet people tend to think of it as egotistical. It's the opposite...it's the the end result of dropping the human ego (which everyone will do sooner or later). Do people really think that they will carry with them the same individual ego/personality after re-incarnating, or even take it into the afterlife? Are people's ego's really so perfect and comforting that they can't imagine eternity without them? I am so baffled by this. I guess it's easier to hold on to old beliefs than to stretch your wings and dare to look at life in a different way.

From my perspective, there's not much more to be said on the subject. Either live in fear that your oh, so precious ego/personality won't go on forever, or rejoice in the idea that you will become One with Source, and let go of the human frailities that plague us through life after life. I guess most would say, "better the devil you know, than the one you don't". Personally, I don't live in that kind of fear, and don't wish it on anyone.

Love binds us together indeed, but labels such as `enlightened` strongly separate when used to compare oneself to others.
Become enlightened (like I) and you will see no separation…only Oneness.
You are implying here that you are enlightened, and that you are addressing these words to others who are not (``become``) and by doing so, you are actually creating a separation. It may or may not be your intention, but that’s how it is likely to be perceived, and that’s why people are likely to react, as nobody likes to be considered inferior.

Maybe it is your case, maybe it is not – you’ll be your best judge – but identifying too strongly to a label such as this one can lead the ego to become the guardian of this label you apply to yourself, reacting strongly (denial, pain, anger, etc.) whenever it feels this part of its identity is threatened, yet labels are identity constructs, and just like the clothes you are wearing, are not your true self.

[wstein]

Love binds us together indeed, but labels such as `enlightened` strongly separate when used to compare oneself to others. Being bound is two separate things attached. Being connected is that we ARE all one, love or no love. A big part of enlightenment in the sense described is recognition of that connectedness.


You are implying here that you are enlightened, and that you are addressing these words to others who are not (``become``) and by doing so, you are actually creating a separation. The word ‘become’ carries implications that do not apply in this case. Most of the transition to the enlightened state is letting go of separation. The usage is more like as in “to become happy”. There is no increase in separation, only a change of state.


It may or may not be your intention, but that’s how it is likely to be perceived, and that’s why people are likely to react, as nobody likes to be considered inferior. IMO people reacting to being inferior or superior is strictly an ego thing. I don’t see that as having much to do with degree of separation.


Maybe it is your case, maybe it is not – you’ll be your best judge – but identifying too strongly to a label such as this one can lead the ego to become the guardian of this label you apply to yourself, reacting strongly (denial, pain, anger, etc.) whenever it feels this part of its identity is threatened, yet labels are identity constructs, and just like the clothes you are wearing, are not your true self. Labels are also an artifact of language (written in this case). In language there is no provision for indicating a particular thing other than using its label. The only other choice is a lengthy description and hope the other person guesses correctly.

[ButterflyWoman]

But does talking about it really cause or enable anyone to be able to let go of their illusions and delusions of self? From the perspective that is "me", it appears that the ego-self is no more able to become enlightened (or, indeed, to become less not-enlightened; it really is a subtractive model) by reading this or hearing that than a drawing is able to pick up a pencil and erase bits of itself and redraw them to its preference. The best the ego-self can do, as far as I can see/tell, is simply stop resisting, simply allow.

The thing is, it's not about me, or you, or him, or them, etc., it's about Consiousness. Consciousness wakes up to Itself, and that happens on the impetus of and at the initiation of Consciousness. There are people who meditate and pray and go on holy pilgrimmages and chant and who knows what, for all of their adult lives, and never really get past the various mystical experiences that sometimes come along the path. And others are minding their own business when, out of nowhere, there is a spontaneous, permanent awakening. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, but seen from a bit of metaphorical altitude, one thing seems very clear: The awakening was initiated and carried out not by the ego-self, but by the Self, by Consciousness. It is awakening, not us. Our ego makes up a story that says, "But I did this! And I did that! And that led to this other and so on..." and the story may be very compelling, but it's still a story, and it's still not about us (except it is, because we are one and the same as Consciousness; paradox is fun ;)).

Which is why I don't really talk about this very often. I used to, when I was in the full bloom of the "falling away" stage, because it was all so new and sometimes weird, etc., but now, I just see very clearly that what happened, happened, and I was as much hinderence to it as I was help, and my perception of having participated in it is an illusion. If I tell people all about it and invite people to awaken, will they? I doubt it. I may as well try to pick unripe apples by standing around talking to them, telling them how great it is to be ripe and inviting them to fall off the tree. ;)

I don't know if this will make any sense. Language is involved here, and it gets muddy very quickly. We strive for clarity and find little, because language is such a clumsy tool....

[tempestinateapot2]

ButterflyWoman said:
"The thing is, it's not about me, or you, or him, or them, etc., it's about Consiousness. Consciousness wakes up to Itself, and that happens on the impetus of and at the initiation of Consciousness. There are people who meditate and pray and go on holy pilgrimmages and chant and who knows what, for all of their adult lives, and never really get past the various mystical experiences that sometimes come along the path. And others are minding their own business when, out of nowhere, there is a spontaneous, permanent awakening. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, but seen from a bit of metaphorical altitude, one thing seems very clear: The awakening was initiated and carried out not by the ego-self, but by the Self, by Consciousness. It is awakening, not us. Our ego makes up a story that says, "But I did this! And I did that! And that led to this other and so on..." and the story may be very compelling, but it's still a story, and it's still not about us (except it is, because we are one and the same as Consciousness; paradox is fun ;))."

I totally agree with this. It seems to me that you are using the term "awakening" to be the same as "enlightenment"? Awakening is a much less explosive term, as people react strongly to someone saying they are enlightened. It's a very loaded word. You are right about people not getting past mystical experiences. Enlightenment isn't something you strive or work for, which is what most people would think (the striving and working for).


ButterflyWoman said:
"If I tell people all about it and invite people to awaken, will they? I doubt it."

Actually, that is how it has been done (for the most part) for ages. Buddah was all about teaching people what enlightenment is. There are monasteries all over the world where students go to be taught what it is. My experience was brought on by reading a book. I had been coming towards it for a couple of years, but it took reading the book to cause me to fall into the state. And, yes, language doesn't really convey properly what it is like. People can pick apart things I've said and argue that I didn't say something right. It doesn't change my experience one whit, but I understand the commotion this topic brings up. It is a very loaded subject, but like I said before, it's great to give someone else a hand up (or down, or sideways, the terminology doesn't matter). Someone may read this thread, and the lightbulb goes on. Or, it may just make people angry, which is why I titled it the way I did. I can't help people's reactions. I was posting my experience, as someone else might put it in a diary. I'm a very open person, and usually tend to share a little too much. Ah,:shrug: well.

[ButterflyWoman]

Well, it would be interesting if inviting people to wake up actually worked, but simple observation will show that it really doesn't. There are hundreds of millions (billions? I don't know, maybe) of Buddhists in the world, and, like any other relgious/spiritual tradition, hardly any of them show any spark of anything other than dogmatic observation of ritual and superstitious belief based in fear or ignorance. So while Buddha did talk about it (and, IMHO, so did Jesus, and a few other figures throughout history and up until the present), it doesn't seem to have a lot of effect in the world.

If people WANT to talk about it, that's okay with me. I don't care one way or the other. I just don't feel any particular need or desire to do so, because, meh, what good will it do? More accomplished and prominent people than myself have done so with little effect, why would I have any particular effect, either? :)

Besides, I often feel like I'm speaking a foreign language, or like I'm an alien trying to convey entirely otherworldly ideas in a language that isn't my native tongue. Combined with my general observation that it's not going to do much good anyway, I can't find a lot of motivation. ;) :D

And, yes, I like the term "awakening" better than "enlightenment". To me, the word "awaken" better describes the experience, and it implies an ongoing process, like "recovering" or "growing". Enlightenment sounds so final to me (and, I suspect, to others), like, "Well, here we are, done now!" Obviously, this isn't the case and it's not how it actually is, but language is clumsy enough without adding a bunch of possible extraneous meanings and shades of meaning with a loaded word like "enlightenment". Just my personal preference, though.

[tempestinateapot2]

ButterflyWoman said, "And, yes, I like the term "awakening" better than "enlightenment". To me, the word "awaken" better describes the experience, and it implies an ongoing process, like "recovering" or "growing". Enlightenment sounds so final to me (and, I suspect, to others), like, "Well, here we are, done now!" Obviously, this isn't the case and it's not how it actually is, but language is clumsy enough without adding a bunch of possible extraneous meanings and shades of meaning with a loaded word like "enlightenment". "

While I'm not in an arguing mood, and don't feel like our exchanges are arguing, I would like to clear something up. I'm not sure that we are talking about the same thing, or maybe just not understanding each other's processes. While I am not the end all and be all of everything spiritual, here are my definitions:

"Awakening" is the process of waking up. It's an action verb, while "awake" is a final end product. Any time one adds "ing" to the end of a word, that implies the action is ongoing. Being "awake" or "enlightened" means you have done it, you are done.

In my experience, enlightened means that one has come to the end of the process. What happened to me was a shedding of all beliefs. No more religion, no more spiritual practices, no belief system. This was a very painful experience, as I noted many times at the beginning of this thread. It is a surrendering of all that one knows, or thinks one knows. At the end of that is the only knowing that really counts, and that knowing is that Everything is God. There is no pinkie finger or garbage can that is not God. Everything that we see or touch is an illusion. It is the illusion that there is anything separate from God, and the knowing that all is consciousness. I should say "Consciousness", because it is such a huge thing...an infinite thing.

I don't mean the tradtional belief that there is not anything separate from God. It's not a hand holding, swaying, and feeling that comes around once in awhile. I mean the deep, abiding knowing that there is nothing that is not God. One doesn't have to have the emotions, the knowing is what is important. A knowing that does not leave one, even when experiences in life are not so good. They don't change that knowing. The feeling may not be there, but that's not necessary. So many people are looking for that emotional high, that high expression of the human mind. Oftentimes, it gets in the way, because people come to expect that they should be having that experience all the time, and strive for it. I don't think anyone ever has that experience of being high ALL the time. I could be wrong in this...but I've yet to hear anyone state this. I know that the feeling of being hungry is not pleasant for a human, even for the most advanced yogi. I have heard of yogis that can subsist on just air, but as I have not had that experience, I can't know that that particular yogi is really experiencing this. So, in my mind, no human is high all the time. But, there are enlightened humans that know that God is Everything, even when they are not feeling it.

After enlightenment, one can do anything one wishes. Bring back spiritual practices and experience whatever one wishes to. Go astral traveling, meditate using crystals, whatever. Embrace the darker side of one's self, it's all an illusion. One can't do anything to harm one's self, because All is God, and God can't harm Itself. It is eternal, We are eternal. Yin and Yang.

[tempestinateapot2]

Poeme said, "identifying too strongly to a label such as this one can lead the ego to become the guardian of this label you apply to yourself, reacting strongly (denial, pain, anger, etc.) whenever it feels this part of its identity is threatened"

I am assuming that by "this label", you mean the term "enlightened". Correct me if I'm wrong. Just to be very clear, I do not feel (feel is a relative term) better than anyone else. I know I am not. I know that a fly is as important to God as I am. If I ever feel threatened, because my "identity is threatened", I know that it is only my ego talking, and that is not who I really am. It's not who any of us are.

[wstein]

Being awake is not so much a label as an observation. It is said in the same manner one might say I have fingers. Saying “I have fingers” in most circumstances is not a boast or a put down or an ego play. The main difference is that most people realize they have fingers and so a statement about that causes little reaction. Everyone is connected but most people don’t realize it, so that seems controversial and is met with resistance even if it might be true. Being aware of these things does not change any basic facts. However the awareness does change the way you see things and the approach you take in doing things.

[Stormfox]

When I was little, about 4, I asked my father "what does it mean to be enlightened?" He handed me a wonderful little book, whose name I cannot remember... it had all these little exercises, and poems, and meditations in it- and then on the last page, in all caps- after all that work- it said, "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ENLIGHTENMENT", under which- in tiny little words- it said ,"now, chop wood, carry water, take a walk" as a child, this was easy for me to understand- while one should continually work to better one's understanding of self and universe, enlightenment is a destination, and the journey itself is, in fact, the goal. Once I got that, everything makes sense.

[Paranormalexperiencer]

This makes alot more sense than other theories I heard over the years especially when you have problems and it seems theres no one or god that can help its your experience but in the same token if this experience is all about you it does seem kinda empty that theres no god,prophet,angel and friend waiting for you when you die its just all you if it's the real truth than i don't have to worry about any of the choices i made in this world technically i can even change the current experience im unhappy with so it's good in that aspect.

[tempestinateapot2]

Stormfox said, "He handed me a wonderful little book, whose name I cannot remember... it had all these little exercises, and poems, and meditations in it- and then on the last page, in all caps- after all that work- it said, "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ENLIGHTENMENT", under which- in tiny little words- it said ,"now, chop wood, carry water, take a walk."

My understanding is that the original quote is "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water". I've always thought that this means that after this life-changing event, one finds that their life really isn't all that changed...we have to keep living life with all it's mundane chores, except that most of us here don't really chop wood or carry water. :wink: I'm curious as to what kind of exercises were in that book.

Paranormalexperiencer said, "if this experience is all about you it does seem kinda empty that theres no god,prophet,angel and friend waiting for you when you die its just all you".

I think that it is all about you, as there is nothing that is not God. But, I also think that there is choice. If one wishes to remain within the illusion, then there will be family, friends, etc. waiting for you, possibly even your Higher Self. If one is religious, then there will be a heaven reminiscent of that religion. If one's choice is to become one with the All, then one will lose all of it's self-identity (ego), but it IMO would definitely not be a depressing experience, but one filled with awe. Not the emotional "awe", but a much larger experience that has nothing to do with human emotion. In the end, there is no better choice, it just boils down to the experience that one chooses.

Bear in mind that I have no proof of any of this, and I don't think anyone does. We could all be wrong in the end, and something we never even thought of could be what's waiting. I have just had a process and an experience that leaves me thinking that this is how things are. Please see my signature, because ultimately, that is how I feel.

[farewell2arms]

But does talking about it really cause or enable anyone to be able to let go of their illusions and delusions of self? From the perspective that is "me", it appears that the ego-self is no more able to become enlightened (or, indeed, to become less not-enlightened; it really is a subtractive model) by reading this or hearing that than a drawing is able to pick up a pencil and erase bits of itself and redraw them to its preference. The best the ego-self can do, as far as I can see/tell, is simply stop resisting, simply allow.

I don't know how the world actually works. But I guess there is always a choice to share or not to share. I have heard some teachers say they speak to consciousness in the people, not to the people themselves. Perhaps you could do the same.

There is a lack of knowledge in the world about these matters, after all. :)

I guess it depends on the particular individual who is listening. Often I have found that there is a reason to read or listen to specific messages. My teacher has a way of saying exactly what I need to hear, when I need to hear it. He rarely describes his own journey, though. We mostly talk about me.

I guess it comes down to if one is willing to be part of this world and share, and be willing to take the risk of failing to come across. I have a hard time coping with failures, always have had, but I keep making mistakes all the same (lol). I need to learn to cope with that more fluently.

[farewell2arms]

I have found some blog posts supposedly about the final stages of awakening to the true self, I found them really interesting! It is the state of 'no-self' where even the sense of I AM is seen through.

Part 1
http://silentstillness.blogspot.se/2011/05/inexistence-of-free-will-and-other.html

Part 2
http://silentstillness.blogspot.se/2011/09/apocolypse-last-days.html

Part 3
http://silentstillness.blogspot.se/2011/10/life-ignore-at-your-own-risk.html

---

This is my intellectual definition of enlightenment

J

[CFTraveler]

This seems to belong here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVCeCqwAkFE&amp;feature=youtu.be

[Tutor]

dead on what life is, being any You.

CFT, you aint no sissie Sister!

I like this word: tsisi, means...robe

[ButterflyWoman]

On occasion, I wish I could teach that clearly. But, alas, I seem to have no ability for it. Best I can do is talk about my own experience and maybe someone, somewhere, will read something I write and it'll be helpful. But when I try to actually explain something, or draw a metaphor, or make a point, it seems that hardly anyone understands me any more. Only people who already get it seem to get it, and they don't need to get it, so what's the point? :)

[IA56]

On occasion, I wish I could teach that clearly. But, alas, I seem to have no ability for it. Best I can do is talk about my own experience and maybe someone, somewhere, will read something I write and it'll be helpful. But when I try to actually explain something, or draw a metaphor, or make a point, it seems that hardly anyone understands me any more. Only people who already get it seem to get it, and they don't need to get it, so what's the point? :)

BW, the point is that those who get it need´s to see it and nodd in understanding and knowing you are the speaker of them too..I feel your exhaustion when not being ackonwledged..it is why I now tell you this, and I hope you can continue unceasing and continually...so...keep up the good work!!

Love
ia

[ButterflyWoman]

It's not so much acknowledgement. I don't actually care all that much about that. It's when I'm openly misunderstood or something I write is taken way differently than I intended it (and though I was being clear about it). That's what I find frustrating. I sometimes fear I'm doing more damage by speaking, and while I don't care that much about teaching (because, frankly, everyone opens up in their own way and their own time), I fear that if someone does mistake what I say and runs with it as a misunderstanding, I'll be inadvertently leading them down the wrong path. Probably, I shouldn't take myself so seriously, but I really hate the idea of putting stumbling blocks in peoples' paths, you know?

[IA56]

It's not so much acknowledgement. I don't actually care all that much about that. It's when I'm openly misunderstood or something I write is taken way differently than I intended it (and though I was being clear about it). That's what I find frustrating. I sometimes fear I'm doing more damage by speaking, and while I don't care that much about teaching (because, frankly, everyone opens up in their own way and their own time), I fear that if someone does mistake what I say and runs with it as a misunderstanding, I'll be inadvertently leading them down the wrong path. Probably, I shouldn't take myself so seriously, but I really hate the idea of putting stumbling blocks in peoples' paths, you know?

Dear BW, I say this as much to myself so please feel my kind intention...but if you react stongly...please tell me also that...
I take it as a blessing if someone are reacting strongly to my writing...then I know what to work with...in my case always is...I lack diplomacy and I get so intense that many time´s it is very hostile energy because I go inte the strong feeling of what ever it is..and if I am stating a situation where I feel fear, anger, or what ever we call negative emotions...I want to call it ..holy anger or wrath...I can also tell that I am not in controll of all my feelings and emotions...they often do escape in the intense as the situation is making in me....and I have found...every single time...that there was still work to do...and the one who did react to it is a blessing to show me where I was not aware enough...we are hiding so much from us selfs...and I am sure this is everlasting thing...I do not believe we get ever as long as we are in a body..be be finnished with this work...and I feel so free to say this...I am not going to be PERFECT...and I am happy to know this.

I love you ...and everyone...all....so much...I enjoy my time here..even I know I carry so much pain still inside of me...and I do not believe this life-time is enough to sooth it out...but I know also...that GOD can when ever he chooses and sees it nessessary, HE can and will say...now it is enough...and then it will be enough...what ever it is to be enoughed to be.

Love
ia

[Tutor]

BW,

I hear ya, and I agree. it is a fearful undertaking. because as you and i know, we be just regular folks, that care.

but a bird has to sing it's song. a tree has to bear it's fruit. i suppose that even a "monster" has to show it's teeth and claws.

but we aint showy monsters, are we?

"make a bee line for...". now i've been stupid enough to find out the origin of that ole saying, more than once. throwing rocks at a bee hive while imagining that i am hidden. and once shooting a bee bee gun at a wasps nest in our garage from around the corner of the garage door. them darn critters can track the path through the stream of what appears as invisible air to us. and they come right for ya, teeth and claw beared. in a sense to them, i was the "monster" and they were merely defending their home.

point is, detachment from the reader or hearer of one's personal bee line through it. the bee line goes both ways (to or from), otherwise there wouldnt be a path through the stream.

point is, the path any one follows was a shot out long ago, track-able from beginning to end, and fears of this or that are just fears. anything in that path is in some shape or form unavoidably tracking to and from hoME.

most folks read to see as if dick and jane still throw the ball in their heads for whatever that dog's name was/is. and it doesnt matter how intellectual they might think themselves to be, there's that thrown ball and the fetch is on.

CFT's offered video above could be taken a step farther. the renunciation of world and enlightenment, would be as one standing up, turning around, walking away into the life as they are, the they (the cast) that has identified the drama(world) and the screen(enlightenment).

let's look at a Psalm, if you will.

Psalm 24 KJV |Psalm 23 Hebrew order...brb...

The King of Glory and His Kingdom

A Psalm of David.

The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness,
The world and those who dwell therein.
2 For He has founded it upon the seas,
And established it upon the waters.


3 Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord?
Or who may stand in His holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
Who has not lifted up his soul to an idol,
Nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive blessing from the Lord,
And righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is Jacob, the generation of those who seek Him,
Who seek Your face. Selah


7 Lift up your heads, O you gates!
And be lifted up, you everlasting doors!
And the King of glory shall come in.
8 Who is this King of glory?
The Lord strong and mighty,
The Lord mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O you gates!
Lift up, you everlasting doors!
And the King of glory shall come in.
10 Who is this King of glory?
The Lord of hosts,
He is the King of glory. Selah

~

to turn - metanoia - vo

such a turn is when those fingers are lifted that wouldn't have otherwise been lifted. Jesus spoke of such in reference to the world at large, the status quo, those standing over as if they've some greater right over others.

yet, here BW, you throw inward caution even to your own words that might be shared, for fear that an other might be brought into harms way. that is honorable, and reveals how much you care beyond your own true self that truly cares for others. well Sister, you aint throwing dick and jane balls, because you possess a spiritual set of balls, this quite evident if anyone might bother to read your "notmyself" sharings.

i like what the fella in the video intimated about the use of words, one does good in speaking/writing, however there is always a bit of harm done when plying the unexplainable into an explanation for an other. ya got break a few eggs to make an omelet i reckon.

all we got is our track through it to and from home/hive/nest, to be utilized as metaphor, to draw from an analogy, to create from an allegorical story. because in it (the track) are the common human connect-ables, as we are all very human, human is human is human....ect.

is any emotion negative? does not anger of frustration cover hurt for any of us. anger might not be so much an emotion, as it a mind hell bent to destroy. thus we are told to hold our peace. i suggest that that peace is ever to be held in our emotions; just as Jesus with a calm mind said in the storm of other's fears run amok, Peace be still!.

who does not quiver with anticipation the relished object of their anticipation? desire

desire is not a negative. if it is, then god's desire for us to even be, would prove god as negative.

redemption

~

ia, i have to agree with Richard's wise reflective words to ya over in your dream thread, ya tend to color "things" as negative, when in fact, if ya turned that tendency, ya might see the 64 offerings in the crayon box, none of them in-tended negatively, merely offered for a contrasting image in the eye of the beholder. that which beholds (the eye) is such be-cause one is beholden, such that not being a "thing", one neither of "things" is, and therefore sees not to read what is see-able as "things". plucking the "idealic eye" out, allows the cleared actualized eye sight on from sight in. look at your own written words and see your escape routes for self-accountability and personal-responsibility. yet you have said, "failure is not in your vocabulary".

when we make any escape route, we are no longer beholden awareness of the track/trek before us routed out, and may only ever be taken off guard to what is ours as we innocently layed it out making it so.

~

we've never left home, we just made a shot out. like a shout out with endless returning echos. like a round stone splashed down and the ripples spherically went around to return upon the point of impact. like we skipped a flat stone to the other side merely to hit ourselve's in the head. thunder, perfect mind

[Tutor]

human addiction that goes as far as, to in a word "enlightenment", willfully forget that one is everybit human.

here is a "modern day" before and after offering...

before: http://www.ishafoundation.org/

after: http://zaysen.blogspot.com/2011/04/sadhguru-jaggi-vasudev-his.html

I've met this very human fella, listened to his "enlightened" words. i walked away impressed at what he had to say, but the important part is...I immediately walked away. brilliant man, to be sure. yet, i suppose, all the more brilliant in the re-membering of the fragile and vulnerable truth of his being everybit human. well, he can't be too awful bad, he rides a harley.

[IA56]

Thank you Tim, I understand !!!

Love
ia

[wstein]

I liked the analogy/example.

While the presentation was fairly clear, its not clear to me that any teaching happened. The lady who asked the question didn't seem to get any of it. For those that are not getting it, explaining does not clarify anything.

[ButterflyWoman]

While the presentation was fairly clear, its not clear to me that any teaching happened. The lady who asked the question didn't seem to get any of it. For those that are not getting it, explaining does not clarify anything.
That's the thing, isn't it? Only those who get it will get it, and those who don't or can't won't get it. To me, it seems mostly pointless to even talk about it at all, and to me it seems potentially irresponsible (for me; I'm only speaking for and of my own experience), because of the high potential for accidentally or unintentionally misleading. And, of course, there's nothing that can be done to "gain" or "accelerate" or otherwise "acquire" this kind of awakening, anyway, so, again, what's the point in talking about it at all?

Maybe I'm missing something, maybe there is some benefit to be gained by this kind of "I've been there, I am there, I'll try to describe it to you", but the more I look at it, the more it seems like a waste of time.

If you get it, you've got it, and if you don't, you won't, until you do. I can come up with all the analogies and metaphors and poetic descriptions in the world, and it won't do much.

[IA56]

That's the thing, isn't it? Only those who get it will get it, and those who don't or can't won't get it. To me, it seems mostly pointless to even talk about it at all, and to me it seems potentially irresponsible (for me; I'm only speaking for and of my own experience), because of the high potential for accidentally or unintentionally misleading. And, of course, there's nothing that can be done to "gain" or "accelerate" or otherwise "acquire" this kind of awakening, anyway, so, again, what's the point in talking about it at all?

Maybe I'm missing something, maybe there is some benefit to be gained by this kind of "I've been there, I am there, I'll try to describe it to you", but the more I look at it, the more it seems like a waste of time.

If you get it, you've got it, and if you don't, you won't, until you do. I can come up with all the analogies and metaphors and poetic descriptions in the world, and it won't do much.

Hi BW,
I do not agree with you here, if you feel it is waist of time, that is rather arrogant in my book, in that case maybe you are not that much into helping other´s after all??...In my book there is nothing such as waist of time...because it becomes to develop more sophisticated and subtle perseptions in us, to want to learn how to communicate with everyone, and to see how and from what level you are supposed to talk from...to see each and everyones level where they are...when you get this, then you will never feel it is waist of your time...and it also will help you to develop more patience and empathy.

This is my point of view ...

Love
ia

[ButterflyWoman]

Are you suggesting that speaking about it is for our own benefit rather than others? I can certainly see that might be the case.

But to me it's more arrogant to assume that what I have to say is so amazingly important that I must tell people about it. ;) In fact, nothing that I have to offer is in any way unique, other than it comes from my unique perspective. There have been and will be mystics and awakened people throughout the course of human history, and plenty of them have talked about this in ways far more eloquent than I. There is nothing that I have to say that has not already been said and which will not be said again.

And trust me, I don't need to develop more empathy. I am excruciatingly empathic. I've had to learn how to turn that off, to shield myself, to STOP feeling everyone else's stuff. I am not strong enough to carry the emotions of everyone I encounter, and I've had to quite deliberately learn how to protect myself. My inherent empathy is the reason I have post traumatic stress disorder and panic/anxiety disorder.

[BDeye]

BW even though what you say has been said, a refresher course for those of us that haven't heard it is never a bad thing. As you say you also bring your own unique perspective to the table, I might not always agree with it, but it forces me to think about my way of seeing the world, which also isn't a bad thing. I think even though the subject matter doesn't change, how it needs to be presented to each new generation does and if people find beneficial ways of relaying that information in a generation appropriate manner it has to be good thing. Even though in the grand scheme of things it might not matter whether people see the universe in a different perspective, from a certain perspective where already there whether we know it or not. But, from a human everyday perspective it might make a change beneficial to our everyday lives.

[IA56]

Are you suggesting that speaking about it is for our own benefit rather than others? I can certainly see that might be the case.

But to me it's more arrogant to assume that what I have to say is so amazingly important that I must tell people about it. ;) In fact, nothing that I have to offer is in any way unique, other than it comes from my unique perspective. There have been and will be mystics and awakened people throughout the course of human history, and plenty of them have talked about this in ways far more eloquent than I. There is nothing that I have to say that has not already been said and which will not be said again.

And trust me, I don't need to develop more empathy. I am excruciatingly empathic. I've had to learn how to turn that off, to shield myself, to STOP feeling everyone else's stuff. I am not strong enough to carry the emotions of everyone I encounter, and I've had to quite deliberately learn how to protect myself. My inherent empathy is the reason I have post traumatic stress disorder and panic/anxiety disorder.

:-) LOL BW, I really did not say anything like that...My point was to be patent with those who do ask and do not get the first time you explaine that you keep going until it does be compehensive so as slow as I am will be given time to understand, don´t you think it is worth all time in the world??

I hope I am titeled to have own point of view, and if I hurt your feelings I beg you pardon, it is not my intention.

And if you again say as I feel very arrogant..that what I have to say is so amazingly important...well to have this kind of point of view...what is the use of the life in that case at all?? ...so to me your saying is full off being depressed or something likely, are you??..
If you are...I send you lots of love and I hope you will feel better soon...and I hope I am not misstaken me to be in wrong site?? If I have missunderstood all, it is my bad and I will bow out and wish you all good luck and thank you for being there for me...it has bean wonderful ;-)


Love
ia

[ButterflyWoman]

No, you didn't hurt my feelings. :)

I guess I just don't feel any obligation to speak. To me, it's a personal matter, and a private one. If I choose to share, then I do, but there is no obligation on me to do so. I strongly suspect that there are a lot of people in the world who are entirely lucid and awake, but they don't speak of it. At least, they don't do so in terms most people would recognise as being the topic of awakening.

And I also feel no obligation to repeat myself ad nauseum. After a while, saying the same thing over and over, even in different ways, gets pretty tiresome. Sometimes I repeat things I've said before, sometimes I just feel like the information's out there and people who are meant to find it will, so there's no need for me to rush in with yet another explanation or discussion.

Truth is, I don't feel much obligation to "help people". I am helpful in myriad ways, mundane and esoteric, but it's because I choose to do that, and to be that, not because I think I must. I also really do not believe that I'm some sort of important figure who necessarily has to teach stuff to anyone. I'm really not a teacher, I haven't got that impulse. I am a helper (by choice), and I enjoy planting seeds that may later grow into something interesting (or not; Jesus had a parable about that very thing, in fact), for the same reason that I enjoy gardening, but if I don't garden (metaphorically or otherwise), there's no loss to me or to the universe. If someone really desperately needs some information, they'll find it, with or without me there to give it to them.

But, again, I don't really know how "helpful" any of this really is. Interesting, yes, but helpful? Useful? Not so sure about that. Maybe the seeds are, but I don't know that, either. Mostly, I speak for my own sake, because, ultimately, that's the only person I can change or help or influence.

From the larger perspective of Unity, it can be said that we are ALWAYS talking to ourselves, of course, but there are plenty of people who can and do say essentially the same stuff I do, and often better. So... Meh. Some other part of myself can talk to itself if it's important enough. Or I might. Either way, it does or doesn't matter. ;)

[IA56]

Okay BW, I respect your point of view, even if I found it abit sad thoug, but we have right to decide how we live our life´s, so it is ...thank´s :-)

Love
ia

[ButterflyWoman]

I don't find it sad, though I guess it could be interpreted that way. I just think of it as a kind of humility. Not that I'm making any claims about how humble I am, but to me, knowing I'm just a single thread in the whole tapestry of humanity and beyond is... well, it just makes sense, and it just seems right. And, probably, I just choose not to be too invested in my own supposed greatness or the importance of anything I might have to say. ;)

[Tutor]

I agree with BW 100%. [forgive the writer's following "dramatist...showman"]

it is arrogance, it is rambling on ad nauseum, it is strait up curvacious addiction...it is human crying out in the wilderness. i suppose, to cry out until one is cryed out, then acceptance, opening to silence...clearly heard.

it all sounds so negative, if duality is your scope of reading. yet human is human, and spiritually speaking all negatives and positives are equally redeemable. it takes selfishness to pursue the routed course taken off a turtle's back, selfishness is a god given trait. in course or of course, as the case may be, clearly looking back the As I Am may openly cry out, come as you are. for this is the only way...human. tenacity requires selfishness, ignorance requires arrogance, cowardice requires courage, success requires failure/s.

it aint about investments, it is a turn about of being vested, turn about is fair play.

we see in part|trap; thus in one's part also self-entrapped.

certainly it would seem as if one suffers from Starfish Syndrome, to pursue with redeemed words those which yet are pursued in their self-entrapping dialogues wherein they truly do not realize what is coming out of their mouths.

~

the story of starfish syndrome. a lonely man gets up early, before the sunrise, and walks an empty beach, not really noticing the beach, just meandering along, his mind splayed out in front of him.

suddenly on the distance a nother lone figure, both of them heading toward one another. the man is walking a strait steppedness, but he notices the distant figure is moving all over the beach making little headway, figuring this other must be staggeringly drunk.

the man's strait step makes quick gain of distance upon the other figure, seeing now that the other is frequently stopping and bending over, then making trips to the shoreline, doing this over and over...

the man reaches that distance wherefrom he sees what the figure is. why it is a little boy picking some"thing" up and taking it to the shoreline to throw back into the ocean. hmmmm???

making haste, the man approaches the boy and asks, what are you doing? boy says, I am picking up the beached starfish and throwing them back in. man says, "my god boy, do you know how many starfish are on this beach, it is covered with them. boy says, i have no way of knowing how many there are, im just picking them up as i see them.

boy bends over, picks up the starfish laying there between them, and walks it to the shoreline throwing it back in. boy returns and says, see?. man looks beyond the boy, where the boy having been, that the beach was cleanly cleared of starfish.

the man's mind relayed back into himself, wherein he turns from to look out upon his straited comings, to see the beach covered in starfish.

the boy moves on. Ramble On: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwrnexYa4Zs

~

ya see, it is from a supposed greatness that this man's mind splayed out before him could not see to read the beach's call. it is from the smallness of the boy's mind unsupposingly kept within that the boy could as answer see to read the beach's call.

Love is an insanity all it's own. yet, well kept, clearly sees the insanity splayed all about that is left unkept.

Love is always left up to those whom would see that love rightly comes down to them...to love.

~

so, like i said, i agree with BW 100%. yet, i agree with Love 200%. thus is "investment" to being vested. or to have said, to not be afraid of being afraid.

You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9S93bE06H0

~

an old oak tree reached it's course, of a hollowed and rotted stump, thunderously crashing to the ground. it had been great, high among the canopy whereunder life in darkness dwelt. a sapling arose from the rich rot's rootedness. the sapling, at first daunted upunder the great canopy dis-play, began to realize the advantage for growth. it did not have to twist and turn in this given dark underworld. it's growth quickly reached high within a non-competitive grasp for the light held at bay beyond the canopy's reach. bursting through to overtake the canopy with the primary twig of grasp, where two leaves oned, openly basked in a revelling present light of yesteryear's dualistic dis-play where life was thought to have been it's unrelenting accusatory derivatives.

Rebel Yell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNGPKqGBSDs

a vested sapling's wtf request to the canopy's querious grasping state of "investments"...

Who Are You?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5kmCgVhADY

silence in a piercing pitch yells,

Tim

P.S. Good to see you Wstein! :)

[wstein]

That's the thing, isn't it? Only those who get it will get it, and those who don't or can't won't get it. To me, it seems mostly pointless to even talk about it at all, and to me it seems potentially irresponsible (for me; I'm only speaking for and of my own experience), because of the high potential for accidentally or unintentionally misleading. And, of course, there's nothing that can be done to "gain" or "accelerate" or otherwise "acquire" this kind of awakening, anyway, so, again, what's the point in talking about it at all?

Maybe I'm missing something, maybe there is some benefit to be gained by this kind of "I've been there, I am there, I'll try to describe it to you", but the more I look at it, the more it seems like a waste of time. There ARE ways to help others 'get it'. What is probably a waste of time is to 'explain it' to others. The only exception I can see is if both do already 'get it' explaining (more defining) will help clarify terminology for further discussion.

In my experience, helping others to learn these sorts of spiritual concepts is not done through education. It is done by putting them in the optimal situation so that have the greatest chance of learning on their own. I have had a fair degree of success with this in one-on-one 'sessions'. To a far lesser extent, induced experience can help in learning by making clear what the goal is (i.e. helping them learn inner silence by inducing inner silence in them long enough for them to experience it).

[ButterflyWoman]

Right. That's interesting. I can imagine that one-on-one would be more conducive to this sort of thing. There's a kind of communication that can happen in that situation, a non-verbal communication.

Hence the traditional guru/teacher/rabbi/whatever and student/disciple/novice/whatever kind of arrangement.

But, yes, the more I consider it, the more I think talking about it is just... well, it's mostly something to do. How helpful it is... Still have my doubts. ;)

[Tutor]

Right. That's interesting. I can imagine that one-on-one would be more conducive to this sort of thing. There's a kind of communication that can happen in that situation, a non-verbal communication.

Hence the traditional guru/teacher/rabbi/whatever and student/disciple/novice/whatever kind of arrangement.

But, yes, the more I consider it, the more I think talking about it is just... well, it's mostly something to do. How helpful it is... Still have my doubts. ;)

BW, exactly.

like Zen and the Motorcycle Mechanic. like Johnny Cash's song about the ole country boy shade tree mechanic who can't touch a pricy luxury car, so he builds his from the various parts of all makes and models of luxury car. some motorcycle enthusiastes make a Rat Bike composed of whatever parts they have in there shop/garage. beg, borrow and steal

ya have to take what ya got and make your own dang gum gravy and biscuits, and do this NOW.

the ole addage, "when the pupil is ready the teacher will come" has to do with NOW, and is everybit about what is within any one that is always present to come. beyond that, whatever is required externally will subsequently reveal itself, be this a person who brings bad/good lessons, be it any book that would timely confirm what within first has in thought conclusively readied for the externality's secondary confirmation.

as this proceeds, one day at a time, the within and without become as a dance of two partners courting. this courtship eventually arrives at being oned. yet, it remains as if two placements, but this we understand already in the example of marriage, husband and wife, they are one, yet they operably remain as two. two feet, two hands, two hemispheres of the brain...etc. but the body is One.

if ya lead out with the left foot, the right foot is sure to follow.

and BW, you are right to doubt, for doubt and scepticism are handy dandy tools when constructing a rat bike in ye ole garage.

I prayed on this last night before sleeping, got up before dawn and was led to Matthew 24:44-end of 24. we mustn't forget, or become complacently bored, that we construct such as a rat bike and never take it out to ride it, where others see it and question, "what the hell ya have got there?"

ten persons could bring ten rat bikes together, and neither bike is the same, they are as unique as is either person-age. however, alll ten have followed through the same operable mechanics toward an operable bike.

way back in the day, anyone popping up out of the throngs with a rat bike, would have been approached with the demand, "show me your V'rat Rupa!". one would have imagined that the visible apparent rat bike would have been show enough. but, such are the ginormous egos, that upunder such a canopy we find ourselves...even...NOW.

however, well...as the story goes, Rip van Winkle done woke up, he being a characterisation of fulness which within are we all. the proof? well...listen...turn your radio on... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSuPET8iNAg

warning..explicit lyrics, POWER: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBMv-fUmOEU

also explicit, Not Afraid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlfh2FuhntM

but detachedly listen to the lyrics, see to read em. cause them be some rat bikes cruisin up the down cru-sin road.

point being, one is given the stock model, takes it to the limit, the limits blow it into parts, unwholey parts that strap ya, and all ya can do is take those unwholey parts, under God's shade tree, piece em together outside the man-set limits/infringements of copyrights and patents, being true to the ME that would of a rat bike BE, to stand as Brothers in the Wind. might get your hat blowed off your head, but who really needs a hat when the good head is enough. God is good; God doesn't call the qualified, God qualifies the called.

the msytic with his/her humbled knees in the gospels/acts, the epistles running upward thru, over the top of [Jude] the head the cloud of unknowing, but the sun known always and in all ways beyond such a storm. Rev. 22 beaming cleanly thru and clearingly thru from Mat. 1. letting the knees reflect the true powerless nature...humbled

RadioHead, Reckoner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVpTPUIzHYo

the latter rains, in the rain bow to the former rainbow reveal

on another note, this offering [link below], an admix of thoughts on the subject of Solar Angel. I particularly like the final paragraph of the Conclusion. though, i am not a patron to any of the thoughts gathered, yet the gathering of such is commendable.

Solar Angel: http://www.uriel.com/knowledge/articles-presentations/Nash%20articles/Beacon030401--Solar%20Angel.pdf

[Tutor]

"In my experience, helping others to learn these sorts of spiritual concepts is not done through education. It is done by putting them in the optimal situation so that have the greatest chance of learning on their own. I have had a fair degree of success with this in one-on-one 'sessions'. To a far lesser extent, induced experience can help in learning by making clear what the goal is (i.e. helping them learn inner silence by inducing inner silence in them long enough for them to experience it)." wstein


wstein,

I absolutely agree!

dunno about getting every one on the same sheet of music/terminology; sound's impossible. but as your signature dis-spells (Nothing is Impossible).

the kernel of truth in Every-thing is that it is No-thing @ All. Looks to me like agreement from All is the likelyest venture toward possiblity, all in all.

in any event, thanks to CFT for kicking this thread afire, after the coals lay dormant for a year.

[MysterSynIcysm]

I was thinking about something, though it's probably about nothing... What if nothing were really something? Now that really would be SOMETHING! Although it's probably nothing at all... BUT! surely ALL must include the nothing, cos if nothing exists, and it MUST!.. It's kinda SUSS!..
Cos we KNOW nothing, we KNOW ABOUT NOTHING, or maybe JUST... Next to nothing. Maybe we could place the something next to the nothing...
Could we? Should we? And would that be JUST? Now that would be something, although it amounts to next to nothing. A round about way to talk about something, where the something is about nothing and the nothing about something. For after all, there is NOTHING to stop us from making the something out of the nothing. YES! I believe I am JUST!.. in just MAKING SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING! I imagine that nothing is really something, though I know it's nothing at all. Perhaps I'm onto something, or rather I'm onto nothing, trying to make nothing into something in the belief that THAT REALLY WOULD BE SOMETHING! even if nothing at all. I'd give my all to make something out of nothing, and after all, there is nothing, and ONLY NOTHING, and nothing can't stop us cos it's only nothing after all.

Who are we to make something out of nothing?
I guess it's a matter (If matter matters at all) of giving it our ALL!

It's ALL or NOTHING! or NOTHING at ALL! (The fundamental dichotomy that isn't a dichotomy at all)
All for one and one for all, we are all only nothing after all.
Or...
One for all and all for one, we are all and nothing for they are one.

(and sorry for bringing matter into the matter, as if it even could matter to matter.
Hmm.. I wonder if matter does mind. If matter even has a mind... But surely that's another story.
Or maybe not, cos in a related matter, maybe even the heart of the matter, maybe even the heart of matter
is a mind. Hmm.. mind over matter.
Well it's probly not gonna matter so long as you don't mind..)

...just sayin' :rolleyes:

[IA56]

I was thinking about something, though it's probably about nothing... What if nothing were really something? Now that really would be SOMETHING! Although it's probably nothing at all... BUT! surely ALL must include the nothing, cos if nothing exists, and it MUST!.. It's kinda SUSS!..
Cos we KNOW nothing, we KNOW ABOUT NOTHING, or maybe JUST... Next to nothing. Maybe we could place the something next to the nothing...
Could we? Should we? And would that be JUST? Now that would be something, although it amounts to next to nothing. A round about way to talk about something, where the something is about nothing and the nothing about something. For after all, there is NOTHING to stop us from making the something out of the nothing. YES! I believe I am JUST!.. in just MAKING SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING! I imagine that nothing is really something, though I know it's nothing at all. Perhaps I'm onto something, or rather I'm onto nothing, trying to make nothing into something in the belief that THAT REALLY WOULD BE SOMETHING! even if nothing at all. I give my all to making something out of nothing. For after all, there is nothing, and ONLY NOTHING, and nothing can't stop us cos it's only nothing after all.
Who are we to make something out of nothing?
I guess it's a MATTER (If matter matters at all) of giving it our ALL!

It's ALL or NOTHING! or NOTHING at ALL! (The fundamental dichotomy that isn't a dichotomy at all)

All for one and one for all, we are only nothing after all.
(and sorry for bringing matter into the matter, as if it matters to matter at all)

...just sayin' :rolleyes:

If this is true and you are not just playing around....than I must congrat you!!
Lucky you :-)

Love
ia

[MysterSynIcysm]

Nah, something tells me it's no joke.
Some might even say I take nothing too seriously!

If you've mind enough to mind, then matter starts to matter.
It would seem you gotta mind, if you want it to matter.
And I'm sure you got a mind, as the difference between us wouldn't matter,
As a matter of fact, in this respect, You'd come to respect we're like
the rest.
And when the nothingness of a rested mind arrests feelings of unrest, it's probly cos something's starting to matter!

Just try to keep in mind,
That nothing really matters!

Nothing:rolling:Something

[IA56]

Nah, something tells me it's no joke.
Some might even say I take nothing too seriously!

If you've mind enough to mind, then matter starts to matter.
It would seem you gotta mind, if you want it to matter.
And I'm sure you got a mind, as the difference between us wouldn't matter,
As a matter of fact, in this respect, You'd come to respect we're like
the rest.
And when nothingness of rested minds arrest feelings of unrest, it's probly cos something's starting to matter!

Just try to keep in mind,
That nothing really matters!

Nothing:rolling:Something

Yeah, I know...thank you!!

Love
ia