Beyond Enlightenment. Warning...Not for Sissies.

[journyman161]

oh, ouch. you got me! i'm a just a complete & total b*tch. an idiot without purpose! sob, sob, sob..........................why doesn't *anybody* like me??? b'cuz i'm so miserable? b'cuz i spew nothing but venom? i'm hateful, make no points, just like to amuse my sickness of tearing down everything that good & just, and holy??? my god......i'm so not worthy of this special place! :cry: :cry:

you guys get some sort of stock download when you reach mod status???
'cuz y'all are spewing & spinning the same stuff.


Eh, get over it, already.
you first!

what did i do???????

mention that there's rules in place here? there absolute is.
that there's some great exchange, but a lot of pointless banter? i believe that to be true.
that my forum has no rules & currently little exchange. true.
that folks have a difficult time with expectations? true.

that's all i've written in this thread, and somehow that's enough to warrant an attack on me from mod status? sorry, but that's just a little absurd!

and no PM? the last thread (dear journeyman) that you just finished regulating on my behalf...you suggested keeping personal slights to private. yet...you don't seem to practice what you preach. interesting. another interesting point is that astral practitioner & i had already to agreed to let it go before you intervened. so, some us don't need as much *baby*sitting as you'd like to believe. but then...what's mod status good for if you can't throw it around a little?!?

and...i'm well aware of *everything* i write. but appreciate you guys keeping such a CLOSE eye on me.The only slight of you I see is that I pointed out the inherent contradiction in what you said - a contradiction of the point you were trying to make about these forums. It would appear, from your self-revealed evidence, that allowing open slather leads to a dearth of people with whom to talk.

If you take that as a slight, you're guilty of not practicing what you preach - you want to be able to say anything you feel like & disagree with anything said (from a previous post os yours where you point out how you like to take & go looking for, the contrary position on anything said to you) but when someone points out a fault in what you're saying you get all defensive & try to cry 'foul moderation?'

You can't have it both ways - we moderate reluctantly & only where needed, & the popularity of the forums shows we (mostly) get it right. Reading how you disagree with what we do & seeing you admit that on your forum there's nobody to talk to makes me realise that your point about us is invalid; so I pointed it out. If I opened my mouth & stuck both feet firmly inside I'd hope someone would have the decency to point it out to me.

[Jimbobjoejr]

What, exactly, is everyone talking about in this particular thread?
i dunno but i don't like the way this thread has turned to, went from interesting and enlightnening to negativity and headache to read. :(

MoM, this is only a suggestion but maybe you should take some time and think about why/what caused you to feel to the need to be defensive and what caused you to feel that way about the mods of this forum. also maybe consider why others people reacted to you the way they did and why they said what they did.
i have found thinking about such things very helpful in understanding the actions/ reactions of myself and others. might help with everyone getting along better. Maybe everyone should try it, understanding why helps alot when trying to understand others' POV.
again, just a suggestion that has helped me before. :)

[star]

I'm working to do it. Its just that it causes mass confusion and makes me feel even less motivated.

I don't really care that it does. Although it makes things like excersise and meditation less effective becuase i'm not feeling like doing it anymore.

Although it seems to be a thing with stages, that come and go.

[journyman161]

Did it occur to you at all that the "drive" could be just to experience? I mean, how many possibilities could there be for an end goal? It seems to me there's likely only 2 choices...to merge totally with Source or stay in the illusion of separateness to experience. With the likelihood that the experiences would get grander and grander.Problem is, my drive has direction - it has always had the direction, right from the earliest times I can recall. I've learned to recognise when I am being 'ego' & it's not particularly nice & so I figure that's what I'm here to deal with on a personal level - but the 'drive' is a whole different level of things.

I've been tested, done courses & read books about purpose, & I keep coming up with the same answers. So here's some question... what if the designers of all this (or at least our 'solid' part of things) have seen the purpose corrupted? What if they see beings as caught in a slide & want to do something about it all? What if, as I suggested before, the reason we are here, & maybe the reason we have or are egos, is to create the Source anew? If we are only here to experience, there would seem to be something wrong with the whole thing - experience doesn't seem to require ignorance of the fact that we're experiencing.

The whole game seems to be about growth; it might be illusion but the illusion is of a path that leads up or down, depending on your choices. So if we're here to experience, then we're meant to be experiencing growth. Whether it's a matter of fighting our way through the brambles to the path & choosing left or right, or whether it's a case of the game having been corrupted by some dark force, the illusion for growth seems quite clear.

It doesn't matter if you see those who come to show Light or The Way as being Avatars from above or just those who have become enlightened in the game, they all keep pointing out the goal of the game & trying to help us overcome the pitfalls & barriers.

There are some who deride the side of Light & choose to be dark & some who choose a path of confrontation, & maybe all points of view are needed, but the implications of the growth game are that even those who choose dark must eventually front up to the path of Light & make their choice.

The problem I see is that there is no need for both. If we are meant to be ignorant & just experience, we have no need for the Dark side to fight against - the very fact of ignorance would be a challenge in itself & so satisfy the need for opposition to make a game of it. If we are meant to be fighting the Dark & finding our way to Light to win the game, there is no need to be ignorant of why we are here. It leads me to reason that something went wrong, that the conditions were different than what was planned.

This would make sense of why the Avatars keep coming along to help. Otherwise, if things were ticking along nicely, experience-wise, they'd have no need to keep prodding us to find new paths. (or old ones)

Just some thoughts...

[faerylight]

JMan :

Why does it have to be a choice of either Dark or Light? What about the idea that the balance/struggle between the two is what created our world? I used to think the path was to find the "Light" and remove the "Dark" but my opinion has since changed - my new idea (which could change as new information becomes available) is to find a balance between the two. In professing Light and denying the Dark, I have found that often one becomes that which one *fights* against. Like overly religious folk who deny all aspects of themselves that are less than Light - those darker aspects fester and grow out of control into one heck of a formidable "shadow self".

I never liked the idea of having to chose sides and chose to go my own path, whatever that is. It's my own, that much I know.

More thoughts : When I was pondering the idea of good/evil, I tried to change it to "creation/destruction". Then when I tried to apply that idea to Nature - I found it didn't work. Naturally occuring forest fires are destructive, yet, in their wake comes creation of a new forest, the soil is replenished by the ashes of the living things that were destroyed. So, it would seem that destruction is a vital force, just as creation is, didn't fit into my good/evil equation. The dynamic of opposing forces is too complicated for me to really understand - from one perspective you have X, from another perspective you have Y. Is X greater than or better than Y? Who am I to say? How can I know? I do know that it isn't good for either to be out of balance, for their to be too much of any single force. Somewhere in there the balance of these opposing forces keeps everything going? I once saw this old painting, hindu or buddhist maybe - that illustrated it was the struggle, the tension created by opposing forces that was the glue that held everything together, wish I could find it now, it was very striking and made a strong impression on me.

Have no idea where I'm going with this, lol. Just some thoughts your post inspired.

[journyman161]

I think I agree with you. I don't think it would be good for one side or the other to win. I think the game is the struggle itself.

See, it takes no effort at all to go the path of Dark - from the biblical quotes about the road to heaven being strait through to how the white & black magic seems to work, the Dark side seems to bring you along almost without effort. I don't think we need to be Light, or even that it's possible, but I do think we have to TRY!

Just letting go & drifting takes you down the path of Dark & that seems to lead to not being true to yourself & risks being taken over by outside purposes. The path to Light is hard & i don't think it ever ends, but the effort needs to be made.

man wrote...

The whole game seems to be about growth; it might be illusion but the illusion is of a path that leads up or down, depending on your choices.
i think of trees. they grow, they experience, adapt, etc. but they don't think "up' & "down". would that make any sense to you?!? and i am aware that most of my ideas & thoughts require a good bit of explanation to set the stage, but (skipping that) is there room for the possibility that 'interiorly' the observer & the experiencer are notone & the same?!? that the 'ego' could in fact be alien to our natural function? an exterior influence or entity (individually or *collectively*) that integrated so long ago that we can no longer differentiate between it's existence & our *own*?!? an "over-seer" of sorts.


This would make sense of why the Avatars keep coming along to help. Otherwise, if things were ticking along nicely, experience-wise, they'd have no need to keep prodding us to find new paths. (or old ones)
curious if you don't as well see where the so-called negs can work in this same capacity??? where a good scare or consistent uncomfortableness can work much faster to get one out of a mental, physical, or spiritual rut!?! and the ideas that some have where the 'negs' might actually be doing more *honest* work then the so-called 'spirit-guides' who tout the whole idea of right & wrong paths?!?

just curious.
those ideas/questions are open to anyone's reply.

[faerylight]

I think I agree with you. I don't think it would be good for one side or the other to win. I think the game is the struggle itself.

See, it takes no effort at all to go the path of Dark - from the biblical quotes about the road to heaven being strait through to how the white & black magic seems to work, the Dark side seems to bring you along almost without effort. I don't think we need to be Light, or even that it's possible, but I do think we have to TRY!

Have you ever been a dark piece of ♥♥♥♥? It's not easy, lol. You have to muster up anger, hatred and sorrow all the friggin' time, exhausting really...

I do see that without challenging the self to become more than it is, it is very easy to slide into a kind of complacency, where you find yourself becoming something that is quite easily manipulated by those who are up to no good.


Just letting go & drifting takes you down the path of Dark & that seems to lead to not being true to yourself & risks being taken over by outside purposes. The path to Light is hard & i don't think it ever ends, but the effort needs to be made.

Not sure here if it's the path to "Light", per se. Calling it the path to Light feels belief driven, at least it does for me. I too have an internal drive to 'grow', to learn, to become more than I am (god I sound like Data from Star Trek TNG!). Is that what being on the path to "Light" is called nowadays? At least in my view, growing does not automatically mean striving solely toward the "Light", just my opinion though.

What I find even more challenging is to balance the two forces within myself. That is NOT easy at all. My internal pendulum has so much momentum at times, hard to get the edge of that swing. I've gone down both the "Dark" and "Light" paths and found each, without the other, quite lacking. I make my own way and I don't need to put a label on it. If I had to label it, it would be something like "my own quest to find balance within myself".

All this is, of course, subject to change at a moments notice. :P That's an important part of growth, imo, to "stay fluid", as a good friend of mine says. :)

It's all very complicated to me at times. Sometimes I just have to chuck it all and go back to square one...

[faerylight]

man wrote...
[quote]The whole game seems to be about growth; it might be illusion but the illusion is of a path that leads up or down, depending on your choices.
i think of trees. they grow, they experience, adapt, etc. but they don't think "up' & "down". would that make any sense to you?!? and i am aware that most of my ideas & thoughts require a good bit of explanation to set the stage, but (skipping that) is there room for the possibility that 'interiorly' the observer & the experiencer are notone & the same?!? that the 'ego' could in fact be alien to our natural function? an exterior influence or entity (individually or *collectively*) that integrated so long ago that we can no longer differentiate between it's existence & our *own*?!? an "over-seer" of sorts.

That is very interesting! I think I see what you mean. When I am in observation mode - I see myself experiencing! What would one do without the other? :shock: Do trees have an internal observer that sees itself feeling thier leaves and branches drinking in the sun? Ooooh, good stuff to think about. :)


This would make sense of why the Avatars keep coming along to help. Otherwise, if things were ticking along nicely, experience-wise, they'd have no need to keep prodding us to find new paths. (or old ones)
curious if you don't as well see where the so-called negs can work in this same capacity??? where a good scare or consistent uncomfortableness can work much faster to get one out of a mental, physical, or spiritual rut!?! and the ideas that some have where the 'negs' might actually be doing more *honest* work then the so-called 'spirit-guides' who tout the whole idea of right & wrong paths?!? [/quote:n40n4i13]

I too agree negs can facilitate growth - have some experience with that one, lol. Personally, I'm on the fence about 'spirit-guides', have not had an experience with one (I don't have any) and anything I can think of about them comes burdened by beliefs. I do know people who have them, met one of them in fact. I have yet to understand the whys and wherefores of that situation though.

[journyman161]

I would think trees know very well about up & down; if they think at all, 'up & down' would be right there in the forefront of their thoughts - with the exception of the presence of water & nutrients, there would be nothing quite as important to a tree. From the moment the seed begins to germinate, up & down are paramount - if a seed is upside down in the ground, the first thing that happens is the new shoot reverses itself to head for the light. (Sorry, could resist the pun)
So, maybe the analogy simply isn't a good one)

While I think negs can be a growth factor, I'm pretty sure it's the overcoming of them that provides the growth. Succumbing to them is definitely a non-growth situation. Just looking around the various astral/alternative/metaphysics forums is enough to assure me that letting negs have any say in a life is a bad idea.

Think of it like the immune system - our wonderful prophylactic lifestyle has resulted in a whole generation of sickly people; without exposure to the diseases of childhood, they find themselves vulnerable to a whole swag of illnesses on top of the standard ones. Their Immune system never got trained.

You don't want a kid to succumb to measles, mumps or flu, but you do want them to have to face them so that later, the IS has the strength & adaptability to survive what comes.

Trials in life & negs are diseases; beating them helps the being learn self-reliance & skills that should be useful later - letting the negs in on any level or trials overcome you simply means you don't get to go on. Maybe next life you have to start over & see if you can learn the things you were meant to learn this time around.

There are a number of times in life where there is an ongoing struggle that, while it may never be fully won, dare not be lost. Sometimes, losing means total loss, with an inability to ever fight again. Letting a neg into your life would seem to be one of those - once in, the neg can worm its way ever deeper, keeping the being in ignorance until it has total control & the being has no say in things.

It is the battle that brings strength & it is the overcoming that brings survival; compromise will, at best, eave you to re-fight the same fight later - probably with less resources.

Just my ideas on it...

it is very easy to slide into a kind of complacency, where you find yourself becoming something that is quite easily manipulated by those who are up to no good.

i feel this sentence is very *key* in response to what jman was writing...about people, when left to their own devices being innately perverse (or...prone to darkness). at least that's what it sounded like.

i think of 'natural' folks being innately natural. holistic/healthy. i know most don't want to hear about the programming, but i feel that if people could be left alone without it. we'd all get along much better. together & unto ourselves. bringing up temp's post again about 'letting go of perfection' and realizing one is 'good enough as is'....is the idea that none of us were born with the idea already in place that we're not good enough. it was *taught*.
those who come even half-way back round that circle to face just the 'idea' of that...are pretty lucky (i think).

then if you can get to the point where 'good enough' (or up or down) isn't even a factor, (imo)...you can really start looking at things clearly.

Existence is an intricate balance of an perpetually ongoing process of creation and destruction. Wherever there is life, there will always be death and decay, and birth and growth. This is a natural reflection of the very basic balance inherent in the underlying medium from which everything is created. There is no "good" or "evil" or "positive" or "negative". They are labeled as a matter of perspective, the balance is simply two essential aspects that compose the whole.

the majority of people i see like to believe that they are at a certain 'level' of understanding. and i believe this thread (although i still haven't managed to make my way through the thick of it)...is temp's attempt to describe her passage from one realm of thinking into another 'newer' realm. and that's great & very exciting for the person involved in that movement. it's ground-breaking, refreshing. the life-giving energy that can come with 'growth', and people innately want to share that feel good energy.

there are also those (a few, not many)(of us) who for whatever reason don't need to believe in any particular level of understanding. it becomes something more vibratory...less definable. i don't believe this state is out of reach for anyone. that it's always there...as a natural re-connection with intelligence. where stuff flows. still glitches of course, but more resonating taking place in the moment. i'm not going to be able to explain it without pissing someone off. and.........i'm tired of dealing with reactions. just seems that most people place more importance on getting across what they have already discovered...then looking at what's changed since they last made a connection.

just trying to explain that instead of the feel-good state being a product of what one thinks they are knowledgeable about. it can be a state of 'being' instead. and more the idea of "movement" instead of "growth". no on is ever truly 'stagnate'. no one. it's just that when people start building up words, theories, conclusions (all based on memory/past-knowledge) around the movement...it does stagnant the so-called growth. by the time one gets to the point of explaining what it is they're engaged in...it's no longer new.

i think (i'm assuming) that's what temp is explaining with the idea that it's all about "personal experience" and nothing else. back to the 'tree' thing as it seems simple and non-personal. a tree doesn't 'think'. a tree is engaged in the movement nothing else.

anyway...just rambling.

[Tempestinateapot]

Jman said:
If we are meant to be ignorant & just experienceI think we are ignorant. It's kind of hard not to be. How can you know everything when you're an ego in a human body? But, the part, "we are meant to be ignorant", that appears to me that "something" made us ignorant. I rather think that we chose it. Not that it was forced on us. It was a decision made for the purpose of experiencing ourselves being ignorant and finding our way back to awareness. That may not be what you meant, but it just hit me that way (the forced part).

When did this thread become a debate about dark vs. light? I'm not even sure anyone exists at either extreme. Seems to me life is more about the grey. My guess would be that "dark" got it's name because we can get scared at night (boogeymen), and "light" came from the light at the end of the tunnel (at death), which is probably just a being of "light" anyway. So, it became another way to define good and evil. And, who is at the extreme of either of those? "Good" for whatever reason seems to make us happy. And, "bad" seems to make us unhappy. But, when people square off and completely align themselves with one or the other, it cause separation, which ain't so good.

It seems to me the growth isn't about becoming one or the other, but about being able to accept both without judgement. That's harder than running for one end of the spectrum or the other.

I was watching a show last night about the atrocities and genocide that are happening in Darfur right now. It was really odd for me. On one hand, I could see it with an unattached eye. It's not a not caring. It's a recognition that whatever those people go through, they are fine in the end. No one can harm their soul. The essence of what they really are.

On the other hand, I felt a deep empathy for them, and wish that I could change it and make it all better. Not that one person could do that, but the desire is there.

Which brings me back to "God", or Source. Doesn't it make sense that Source would have to be removed emotionally from all of this? Even love. Because, love would cause you to act. And, if Source is all powerful, the motive would be to come in and fix the situation. Religious people say that God is love. Then, in the next breath, they say that only God knows, and they leave it in God's hands. Well, God lets a whole hell of a lot of seemingly innocent people suffer and die. So, why would you leave your fate in someone's hands who lets these atrocities continue? Do these people think that God will fix their little Johnny's cancer if they pray hard enough, but allow children in Darfur to experience murder, torture, rape, starvation...all those things that we don't want to think about? The more "accepting" I become, the more I see that that's what God is. Pure acceptance. No messy emotions to get in the way of that. Love would muck things up. Love would make a perfect universe with no "light" or "dark"....just love. But, that's not what we've got.

Ok, so Jman, you're going to tell me it's a big mistake? Kind of like what Tom says. Isn't Source powerful enough to fix things rather quickly? That's not happening, either. So, God isn't love and doesn't make mistakes. What's left? The created are here for the experience. Was there a choice? My guess is there was/is. Are we moving towards love and goodness because that's the way it was set up, or did that evolve through eons of experience? Are we creating love? Or, are we just using something someone else created? And, why do we have to pay so much for popcorn and soda at the movie? :shock:

[faerylight]

And, why do we have to pay so much for popcorn and soda at the movie?

:lol:

By god that's it - you have finally asked the 'right' question...

*Harps begin to softly strum in the background... Rays of light shine down upon your head and everything you ever wanted to know is shown to you*


Which brings me back to "God", or Source. Doesn't it make sense that Source would have to be removed emotionally from all of this? Even love. Because, love would cause you to act.

For me, it really depends on your definition of Love. Love is not always acting and rescuing someone from despair. Sometimes Love is letting go and not acting. I dunno though, I too feel great empathy for those who suffer so greatly. I don't know what to think about it. I wonder why it has to be so, I don't like that it is so, I'm thankful I do not have to experience that this time around. Too complicated for me to understand, really.

Exploring an idea here - is it Acceptance or Understanding? Is Understanding a part of Acceptance? What does Acceptance really mean?

btw - I like how conversations evolve, digging into the idea of dark/light is an integral part of the "enlightenment" process, imo.

Temp wrote

that appears to me that "something" made us ignorant.
does anyone here listen to any of the michael tsarion stuff?!? he's really amazing. there's a great video here. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8545585184878490822&q=tsarion)

temp you might be interested since he talks a good bit about 2012. he also gets into the ideas of humans being genetically upgraded long ago. gets into it in depth, but basically that idea of being bred/developed as a slave society by an alien race that used their own d.n.a. mixed with the original humans, and ended up with a product that was too enlightened/intelligent to take orders well. his ideas are that they played around a few times with the mix, but each time shutting down particular portions of the brain to get a number/dumber model. and the ideas of 90% of our capabilities being dormant.

think this is also the video that gets into the macrobe ideas?!? anyway...it's a good listen if one has time (3 hrs+), but there's a pause button. very excellent lecture if you enjoy listening to stuff outside the box of good & evil.

temp wrote:

It seems to me the growth isn't about becoming one or the other, but about being able to accept both without judgement.

questions:

why does it have to be about growth at all? the idea of growth as movement through the cycle of life, being, etc. that just happens whether we believe in it or not, participate or not, etc. why then is growth even an issue? not a given.

and it's nice to see that minds are opening up to the idea of 'both', but again, why does it have to be about acceptance? everything has a purpose or it wouldn't exist. has nothing to do with accepting it or not.

the mindset seems to have increased, but it's still the same ego-driven thought "process" i'm seeing.

[star]

You might be able to think of it more like: "Growth just happens"

Instead of asking why your growing or if you even should be growing or what exactly you need to do to grow more effective.

Dunno, just guessing.

By the way, military normally gets a discount at the movies.

[Tempestinateapot]

MoM said:
why does it have to be about growth at all? the idea of growth as movement through the cycle of life, being, etc. that just happens whether we believe in it or not, participate or not, etc. why then is growth even an issue? not a given. I don't mean cycle of life growth. For those still in the game (aware or not), growth seems to be the direction headed for. People are trying to work things out, on a local as well as global front. Not always in the greatest, most functional (vs. dysfunctional) way, but there does seem to be a push to create a better world. Many misguided pushes, but attempts anyway.

If a person wakes up one day to enlightenment, they still have a choice...to leave the game or choose to participate. If you are going to leave the game, it's nearly impossible if you have built your life and it's purpose surrounded by family, community, friends, and responsibilities. You would have to literally say good bye to all of that (much in the way wstein and Jed Mckenna have) and remove yourself from society. It would be a superhuman who would be able to completely step out of their ego and still maintain a family. So, staying in the game, all the while being aware of the greater reality seems to include some form of growth.

And, the growth seems to be a personal choice. Which direction to grow? What's the reason and drive to be stagnant unless you opt out of the game? Either choice is valid. Even no choice is valid. But, if you are aware and decide to stay in the game, I just see most people making an attempt to keep learning, keep moving, keep growing. Even if it's in small increments.

Changing the subject a little...I notice a difference in me. I am even more intolerant of people's egos (and mine) than I was before. Clarity seems to be a side effect of all of this. But, along with the intolerance of the ego, is an acceptance of the being. And, an ability to really know the difference. As someone mentioned, the "I'm ok, You're ok" is on a soul level, rather than an ego level. I see a lot of egos that aren't "ok", including mine. So, the question becomes, who is doing the growing? The ego or the real me. Does it really benefit to improve the ego when it's a temporary shell, anyway? Do good deeds and becoming a "better" person improve the soul, or is it just another unjudged action/experience that the soul is accumulating? My guess is that the experience itself is what's important, not whether it's a good or bad experience. Then, why the seemingly innate drive to become "better"?

[journyman161]

Ok, so Jman, you're going to tell me it's a big mistake? Kind of like what Tom says. Isn't Source powerful enough to fix things rather quickly? That's not happening, either. So, God isn't love and doesn't make mistakes. What's left? The created are here for the experience. Was there a choice? My guess is there was/is. Are we moving towards love and goodness because that's the way it was set up, or did that evolve through eons of experience? Are we creating love? Or, are we just using something someone else created? And, why do we have to pay so much for popcorn and soda at the movie? :shock:There's an alternative you know - that Source is us, & that Source is no longer 'in charge' of things so to speak but has diffused into its creation. That we, all us little subsets, are working towards reuniting after all this experience & becoming Source once more, albeit with a new knowledge of Self gained from the myriad PoV's experienced across the plenum & through all time.

So with this scenario, Source can be LOVE but at the moment S/He's not at home & so the atrocities and moments of awe & wonder continue unchecked.

So if things are going to be fixed, if Light & Dark are going to reach resolution, then it is up to us. This would give reason for all the Avatars & Guides & even to the efforts of the Dark & demons - the Game is NOT a foregone conclusion because it depends on us to work it out & find a way to transcendance. And maybe, just maybe, how we do at it matters by changing the make-up of Source when S/He finally coalesces once more.

We have been telling the people that this is the Eleventh Hour.

Now you must go back and tell the people that this is The Hour.

And there are things to be considered. Where are you living? What are you doing? What are your relationships? Are you in the right relation? Where is your water? Know your garden.

It is time to speak your truth: Create your community. Be good to each other.

And do not look outside yourself for the leader: This could be a good time!

There is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid. They will try to hold onto the shore. They will feel they are being torn apart and they will suffer greatly.

Know the river has its destination.

The elders say we must let go of the shore, and push off into the river, keep our eyes open, and our head above the water.

See who is in there and celebrate. At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally. Least of all ourselves. For the moment that we do, our spiritual growth and journey comes to a halt.

The time of the lone wolf is over. Gather yourselves! Banish the word struggle from your attitude and your vocabulary. All that you do now must be done in a sacred manner... and in celebration.

We are the ones we've been waiting for...

The Great River - The Elders, Hopi Nation, Oraibi, Arizona

[Tempestinateapot]

Jman, for some reason (who knows), the idea that Source has subsetted itself out and is no longer home doesn't sit well with me. I can only guess why it bothers me. I feel like there is a unifying intelligent power that is not emotionally affected by all our busyness and running around yelling, "the sky is falling". That's a rather funny image, if I may say so. :lol:

That was a nice post, MoM, but it about killed my eyes trying to read it. :shock:

[journyman161]

Jman, for some reason (who knows), the idea that Source has subsetted itself out and is no longer home doesn't sit well with me.Ah, but that doesn't make it untrue. *grins* The fact that you have the feeling would seem to indicate there may be more to things than just experience.

The feeling you have that there is something underlying but uninvolved may be because we are in the 'body' of Source.

Maybe Source came into being & is playing the knowledge game within itself; so the Consciousness is there, underlying or making up all there is, but the awareness has 'subsetted' into the Game & so is not around to get upset by the inequities & harm that occurs across the Game? Perhaps there is some justification to the idea that something has gone wrong or may not work out as it was thought to & we ARE in a battle to find our way out to reach reunification into Source?

Just playing with concepts here... trying to find a match that fits all the things we know or think we know.

[wstein]

What part of "its ALL an illusion" are people not getting. Somehow growing to be a more advanced part of the illusion does not change your basic nature. The illusion that does not actually exist still does not exist. The divine you is no more or less divine because the illusion has changed.

The source does not intervene in the mundane affairs here on Earth mainly because the illusion (where the suffering is going on) has no substance. Its like you trying to stop the suffering of the characters on a DVD. There is no spoon...

a-friggin'-men!
(sorry...but that was good point!)

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

—Nietzsche, The Gay Science, Section 125,

[Tempestinateapot]

All this talk about spoons and knives. Are we in some celestial kitchen? :P Cooking up a big, fresh batch of illusion, I suppose.

Ok, I get it. The illusion. The awareness. The Source not being emotionally attached to sky is falling emotions. The ability of our choice to still participate in the illusion by choice (while still not buying into the whole thing). BUT, I'm still sorting out whether if we choose to participate and play the game, if there is any reason or purpose to evolve towards bettering our illusory soul. Looking around this illusion, there seems to be some kind of push towards evolving. So, while we are experiencing the illusion, did Source build in some kind of homing signal device that prompts us to evolve to a better way?

Bruce Moen talks about PUL. Meaning Pure Unconditional Love. He claims that it's an "aspect" of Source that Source pulled out to use as a binding agent to bring all his little experiencers (Moen calls us "probes") back to Source to add to Source's knowledge of the "unknown". His description, to me and from the way he writes about it, is that Source Itself is not love, but love is just one of many aspects of Itself that It can draw on. Many people have interpreted this as Source "being" love, but I would have to disagree. Mostly for reasons I've already stated, the greatest being that love calls for action, and Source isn't making a lot of action moves.

So, how does love and evolvement in the illusion all fit into this? Again, was there some motivator towards growth that was added into the mix of the illusion? I'm being rhetorical, because I don't think anyone really knows. But, some good guesses are always interesting. :D

[faerylight]

...Mostly for reasons I've already stated, the greatest being that love calls for action...

But Temp!!! Sometimes Love is NOT taking any action. Sometimes you have to stand back and watch others discover things for themselves, even though you know that the road they're taking could end badly, without intervening. No matter how much it might hurt you to watch, sometimes the most selfless expression of love is to not do anything at all!

[journyman161]

I have no problem with a Being of Love allowing things to happen to its agents. IMO if we are here to experience, it ain't for the good of our souls, but for the eventual good of Source. To step in a 'solve' things would be to shortcut the growth process & maybe invalidate it.

But if Source IS us, if Source fragmented to enter the Game, (which to me makes more sense than having Source still sitting out there as something apart from its agents) then the growth is happening to Source & the Game is to learn & grow & eventually find our way back to being one. the growth would come from overcoming the baser side as represented by the Dark & the choice of ignorance makes sense - to enter the Game knowing we are really Source would invalidate some of the lessons.

This scenario would give us all the factors I think - we ARE here just to experience, it IS an illusion generated by Source because really, we are exploring & experiencing Source itself, but there is also a purpose & goal to achieve, which would make sense of why the 'higher' beings keep popping back to check on progress.

So TiaTP's (& others) sense of enlightenment is valid but only part of the story. After the recognition of the real state of things comes the finding of the true path or goal.

Of course, looking from this side of the curtain makes it difficult for us mere mortals to know what comes next, so this is just speculation based on reasoning out what I see around me.

[Tempestinateapot]

faery said:
But Temp!!! Sometimes Love is NOT taking any action. Sometimes you have to stand back and watch others discover things for themselves, even though you know that the road they're taking could end badly, without intervening. No matter how much it might hurt you to watch, sometimes the most selfless expression of love is to not do anything at all!To me that's the human action of "tough love". But, I somehow don't see the Source as a Being who picks and chooses when to bestow bunny kisses and rainbows sometimes and turning His back in pain other times when tough love becomes necessary. That's humanizing Source too much to me. And, it's getting into judgement. Source would have to start judging who and when the kisses get bestowed and who gets the crap beaten out of them by life. I think Source has to be removed from that to do the Source job, which is laissez-faire. Unless, He punches a heavenly time clock? :lol:

[Tempestinateapot]

Jman said:
But if Source IS us, if Source fragmented to enter the Game, (which to me makes more sense than having Source still sitting out there as something apart from its agents) then the growth is happening to Source & the Game is to learn & grow & eventually find our way back to being one. Ok, then, if Source has abdicated, who is running the show? Because none of us has the big picture. And, my feeling is that those more advanced aren't running the big picture, just a bigger picture. And, those even more advanced than them aren't running the big picture, just a much bigger picture. And, so on. But, someone has to be home to be taking notes about the biggest picture of all, which is the many smaller pictures all combined together. Growing, yes, from the probes bringing back all that great information. But, also, unchanging within It's Being. See, this is why I can't seem to decide if I'm a dualist or a non-dualist. I'm just a dualistic non-dualist. Hmmm...I could start a religion based on that. Any takers? :twisted: :P

[journyman161]

Jman said:
But if Source IS us, if Source fragmented to enter the Game, (which to me makes more sense than having Source still sitting out there as something apart from its agents) then the growth is happening to Source & the Game is to learn & grow & eventually find our way back to being one. Ok, then, if Source has abdicated, who is running the show? Because none of us has the big picture. And, my feeling is that those more advanced aren't running the big picture, just a bigger picture. And, those even more advanced than them aren't running the big picture, just a much bigger picture. And, so on. But, someone has to be home to be taking notes about the biggest picture of all, which is the many smaller pictures all combined together. Growing, yes, from the probes bringing back all that great information. But, also, unchanging within It's Being. See, this is why I can't seem to decide if I'm a dualist or a non-dualist. I'm just a dualistic non-dualist. Hmmm...I could start a religion based on that. Any takers? :twisted: :PWhy does there need to be someone at home? If we are all immortal souls, then eventually all come back to Source & Source is remade in the image of the subsets.

And if the Game IS the Source, there almost can't be a Being sitting at home unless we consider we aren't part of Source but are actually separate bits created for a purpose - which would kinda invalidate your experience of enlightenment I think.

[Tempestinateapot]

And if the Game IS the Source, there almost can't be a Being sitting at home unless we consider we aren't part of Source but are actually separate bits created for a purpose - which would kinda invalidate your experience of enlightenment I think.Just my opinion, but I think Source is capable of a lot more than we can even begin to imagine in our wildest thoughts. From the little that I do know, Source is everything at once, created and uncreated. That's why He sometimes goes by the title of "Unmoved Mover". Just because i can't comprehend how that would logistically work out, doesn't mean it's not possible. What's that old saying? "Everything is possible with God."

Now, I just want to figure out how it's done. Like that's going to happen anytime soon. :lol:

Jman said:
But if Source IS us, if Source fragmented to enter the Game, (which to me makes more sense than having Source still sitting out there as something apart from its agents) then the growth is happening to Source & the Game is to learn & grow & eventually find our way back to being one. Ok, then, if Source has abdicated, who is running the show? Because none of us has the big picture. And, my feeling is that those more advanced aren't running the big picture, just a bigger picture. And, those even more advanced than them aren't running the big picture, just a much bigger picture. And, so on. But, someone has to be home to be taking notes about the biggest picture of all, which is the many smaller pictures all combined together. Growing, yes, from the probes bringing back all that great information. But, also, unchanging within It's Being. See, this is why I can't seem to decide if I'm a dualist or a non-dualist. I'm just a dualistic non-dualist. Hmmm...I could start a religion based on that. Any takers? :twisted: :P

The possibility that nobody is running the show comes to mind. I'm not saying thats the case, but since we don't know for sure, it's a possibility I don't think we should dismiss.

[Tempestinateapot]

Spec said:
The possibility that nobody is running the show comes to mind.I think that's kind of what Jman was saying, if I understood him right. While it's a possibility, that means you've got the Mover (in smaller aspects), but the Unmover has, what, disappeared? Fragmented? Nope, I don't like it. *stomps foot* :lol: Doesn't feel right. There seems to be some unifying Source (I wouldn't really call It God, but that's a respectible title) that we're all heading back for. I know, Jman said the same thing, except that there was no "It" to head back to, just a bringing together of all the aspects.

There's also the possibility that we aren't heading anywhere. That we are probes for eternity. Feeding info back to the Source, but making our own way, with no end in sight. Just creating and experiencing eternally. Ok, now that's just making me tired. :shock: Don't we get a vacation?

Spec said:
The possibility that nobody is running the show comes to mind.I think that's kind of what Jman was saying, if I understood him right. While it's a possibility, that means you've got the Mover (in smaller aspects), but the Unmover has, what, disappeared? Fragmented? Nope, I don't like it. *stomps foot* :lol: Doesn't feel right. There seems to be some unifying Source (I wouldn't really call It God, but that's a respectible title) that we're all heading back for. I know, Jman said the same thing, except that there was no "It" to head back to, just a bringing together of all the aspects.

There's also the possibility that we aren't heading anywhere. That we are probes for eternity. Feeding info back to the Source, but making our own way, with no end in sight. Just creating and experiencing eternally. Ok, now that's just making me tired. :shock: Don't we get a vacation?

Why does it have to be "back for?"

It could be, we are moving towards something, instead, I think. Perhaps we came from somewhere, and being the explorers we are, we are trying to move towards something else, even if we don't know what it is yet.

[journyman161]

The UnMover is still there - we're living in it. Try this...

When I have a problem come up, I think through the possibilities & if I can't reach a conclusion, solution, or decide on a path, it goes to a circuit at the back of my attention & whirs away there, chruning over the possibilities. It isn't at the forefront any more, but if I have a break in concentration I can feel it churning away looking for answers. Eventually it pops up with a response - sometimes I can work out how it got the answer & sometimes not.

So, maybe we're God's little circuits & the circuits are all there is of the awareness that was Source. But there is still a mind there that all us little circuits are whirring in, gathering experience until finally we find a way to re-form into Source with a completed knowledge of Self gained from living all those lives, experiencing all those events & feelings.

At the end of it all, Aware but not Knowledgeable Source becomes all it can be & is ready for bigger & better things.

So the Mover is the Awareness, the Beingness that became us, the Game is knowledge & the playing field is the Unmoved, the Mind field of Source.

*grins* And that's not a headache, its a pain in the Cosmoids...

[Tempestinateapot]

Spec said:
Why does it have to be "back for?" I was just alluding to the popular New Age concept that we come from Source and are working our way back.

Ok, Jman (I'm going to start calling you Jam, hehe!), I didn't understand any of that. Either my senility is kicking in, or yours has started. :lol:

[journyman161]

Mover = Source Awareness/Life Force
UnMover = Source Mind field = Universe/Multiverse

[wstein]

Jman said:
But if Source IS us, if Source fragmented to enter the Game, (which to me makes more sense than having Source still sitting out there as something apart from its agents) then the growth is happening to Source & the Game is to learn & grow & eventually find our way back to being one. Ok, then, if Source has abdicated, who is running the show? Because none of us has the big picture. And, my feeling is that those more advanced aren't running the big picture, just a bigger picture. And, those even more advanced than them aren't running the big picture, just a much bigger picture. And, so on. But, someone has to be home to be taking notes about the biggest picture of all, which is the many smaller pictures all combined together. Growing, yes, from the probes bringing back all that great information. But, also, unchanging within It's Being. See, this is why I can't seem to decide if I'm a dualist or a non-dualist. I'm just a dualistic non-dualist. Hmmm...I could start a religion based on that. Any takers? :twisted: :P Sorry but no one is running the show. There is no show, its an illusion. There is no 'more advanced' within the illusion. Its all cut from the same (illusory) fabric. There's no evolving except in the illusion.

'Has to' is an ego thing without any substance.


BUT, I'm still sorting out whether if we choose to participate and play the game, if there is any reason or purpose to evolve towards bettering our illusory soul. Looking around this illusion, there seems to be some kind of push towards evolving. So, while we are experiencing the illusion, did Source build in some kind of homing signal device that prompts us to evolve to a better way? Source did not build in any clues, none are needed. I know what you are looking for. To find it, remove the illusion, all of it. What is left is source. Its not missing or gone anywhere. There is no where it can go that it is not already. If it left somewhere then that somewhere would no longer be. You can find the source because you are part of it.

Perhaps a visual exercise will help. Imagine a plate of marbles. The plate represents the ALL and the marbles the hypothetical fragments. Say at first the marbles are randomly scattered. When you look at it you might say its not of a very high order, not very evolved if you will. Say by chance you see several marbles that are in a line. Then you might say its of limited order, limited evolvement perhaps. Then perhaps you spot a stack of marbles in the shape of a pyramid. You see it as highly ordered and might assume its highly evolved. However, all this seeing, order, evolvement is in your imagination only. At all times its just a plate of marbles. At no time did the marbles change in nature. The apparent arrangement of marbles does not in any way imply their level of evolvement. Nor does shaking the plate to make new arrangements of marbles change anything. It remains a plate of marbles.

[Tempestinateapot]

Sorry but no one is running the show. There is no show, its an illusion. There is no 'more advanced' within the illusion. Its all cut from the same (illusory) fabric. There's no evolving except in the illusion. I agree with all of the above. For the most part. "No one is running the show" can come across as an idea that there is no Source. Which, I'm almost positive you didn't mean. Semantics. :roll: Always in the way. What I'm thinking you meant is that there isn't even a show to run, so how could anyone run it. Is that what you meant?

What I refer to as "illusion" is complicated, and it would take too much time to explain every time I mentioned it. For what it's worth, I'll try to describe it. Both so that you know what I mean and putting it down on illusory paper (hehe, the computer) clarifies it for me. Again...my processing.

The illusion exists on several levels. The most important being that we are ever separate from Source. I'm one of those maniacs who think rocks are Source and therefore, have a consciousness.

The next level of illusion is that we, the earth, the table, are actually solid. We are mind creations. Originally from Source, but through eternity, we have learned to create, or are continuiing with our innate abilities to create, being a part of Source.

Now, I think we are thought forms. I don't think we are not "real". We are having valid, real experiences. We just are living an illusion that this is permanent, and this is who we are...the human body with a human mind and way of thinking. The ego's MO. The ego is a temporary, basically unenlightened way of gathering up new experiences to make the unknown "known" to the Source.

The end result is that we have two choices while here in a human body. (Possibly more, but I don't know what). We can stay unenlightend, take the game super seriously and become so wrapped up in our ego that we can't see what's really going on. I'm not using the word "ego" to imply it's a bad thing. It's a creation with a purpose. Experience.

The other choice is that we become enlightend, recognize who we are and what we are experiencing. At that point, it becomes a choice. The blinders are off. Do you sit on a hill and meditate on the fact that "you" as an ego don't exist and spend effort disassembling the ego? Or do you use your ego as a tool to create new experiences, recognizing that it's all done with consciousness, these are temporary creations, and none of it ultimately matters except as a way to experience the unknown? In other words, don't get so wrapped up in your "life" that you forget you are not this life...you and everything else are the Source and are creating this.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Not my beliefs. I don't have any beliefs anymore in the way most people think of that term. I'm just playing around with "expanding my consciousness". Hey, we should make a forum with that name. :lol:

Spec said:
Why does it have to be "back for?" I was just alluding to the popular New Age concept that we come from Source and are working our way back.


I don't believe I made myself very clear, so I am going to try and elaborate here:

In the couple posts above I had simply been asking questions to try and stir some fresh ideas into the mix, not all of the ideas were related however. The above idea was that if we came from a source we might not necessarily be trying to move back towards it, but moving onward to something else. I hope that explains it a bit better.


The idea of returning to the source is probably one of the oldest of mystic philosophies, probably dating back to the stone age. I could easily see some guy sitting by the fire in that age thinking about how all things return to the great earth from which all life comes from.

From there, the question of where the earth came from might have came up at a later date and thus the philosophy started to blossom and get bigger, and even spread apart into different ideas of the technicalities of how it works.

What I want to know is: what makes up the source? All the clues we have is ourselves and the world around us so it becomes a reverse black box study in a way. :idea:

[Tempestinateapot]

Spec said:
What I want to know is: what makes up the source? All the clues we have is ourselves and the world around us so it becomes a reverse black box study in a way.True. Once you throw out "beliefs", you have nothing left to fall back on except your own curiosity and desire to know. It's more comfortable to have "faith" and a "belief" system. But, it can get in the way of growing. We, as humans, become rigid and feel a need to protect our beliefs. I've certainly done that most of my life. It's probably impossible to throw out all beliefs as a human, but worthwhile to try.

So, what does make up Source? That's the quadrillion million lottery question, isn't it? :D

Spec said:
What I want to know is: what makes up the source? All the clues we have is ourselves and the world around us so it becomes a reverse black box study in a way.True. Once you throw out "beliefs", you have nothing left to fall back on except your own curiosity and desire to know. It's more comfortable to have "faith" and a "belief" system. But, it can get in the way of growing. We, as humans, become rigid and feel a need to protect our beliefs. I've certainly done that most of my life. It's probably impossible to throw out all beliefs as a human, but worthwhile to try.

So, what does make up Source? That's the quadrillion million lottery question, isn't it? :D

Actually, I've been wondering if there is even a real need to know.

If you think about it, wouldn't we simply find out when we got there? Maybe we shouldn't be focusing on ten steps ahead but the here and now?

Or, perhaps, maybe we should be focusing on the now and the ahead, so we don't lose track of where we are at and don't miss the bumps and drops along the way either ;)

I could use a quadrillion million right now, well ok maybe not that much but a million should do :lol:


True. Once you throw out "beliefs", you have nothing left to fall back on except your own curiosity and desire to know.

Facts and logic :)

From my own experience of being reduced to pure awareness/consciousness, I got the distinct impression that I was still a segment of the "source". I felt as though I compromised a discrete segment of that source. I felt energy flowing through me to other segments of the source, all intimately connected.

To use an analogy. Consider this "source" as an enormous brain. I experienced what would be the likeness of being a single neuron, in an infinite network of neurons, all receiving energy and passing it on, like a neuron receiving an impulse, then firing and passing it along to the next.

I feel that what defines life is awareness, that our awareness can be reduced to a portion of the very basic source that permeates everything everywhere in the universe. Our awareness, focused creates consciousness, or sentience.

Awareness and consciousness are the most fundamental forces that create what we consider physical reality in my opinion, and we hold this consensus reality together with our memories and thoughts. As we age, and move on, the physical reality we've created is re-formed, some parts lasting, others fade and are replaced, etc. This is a basic attempt at an explanation of existence as I've come to understand it from my experiences.

From my own experience of being reduced to pure awareness/consciousness, I got the distinct impression that I was still a segment of the "source". I felt as though I compromised a discrete segment of that source. I felt energy flowing through me to other segments of the source, all intimately connected.

To use an analogy. Consider this "source" as an enormous brain. I experienced what would be the likeness of being a single neuron, in an infinite network of neurons, all receiving energy and passing it on, like a neuron receiving an impulse, then firing and passing it along to the next.

I feel that what defines life is awareness, that our awareness can be reduced to a portion of the very basic source that permeates everything everywhere in the universe. Our awareness, focused creates consciousness, or sentience.

Awareness and consciousness are the most fundamental forces that create what we consider physical reality in my opinion, and we hold this consensus reality together with our memories and thoughts. As we age, and move on, the physical reality we've created is re-formed, some parts lasting, others fade and are replaced, etc. This is a basic attempt at an explanation of existence as I've come to understand it from my experiences.

So, to put this in short, basically we already are in the source, just we are only aware of a small fraction of it?

Yup, we're already in the source, we're also made of the source ourselves at the most fundamental level. We can be aware of a small part of the source within ourselves, or the larger source through trancendental experinces of expanded consciousness. Once you realize everything is the source, then you are aware that the source is everything.

So in a way you can "know" everything is the source, but it could be stated most people are not aware of it. The source is the background medium from which everything arises, whether it's a life form, an object (say a rock), even subatomic particles arise from this source, and it seems to me that the quantum level is sort of the transition plane between source (energy, intent, awareness) and physical matter.

I also feel that at this basic level, the "source" as we've been calling it in this thread, energy, can be transmitted in the way that I attempted to describe in my previous post at great speeds. I think this is the level at which telepathy, clairsentience, basically any clairvoyant abilities are occuring. I think when we project in a purely energetic form, our abilities of perception and travel are parallel with the source. It seems to me from my experiences that information and energy can be transmitted through this source much faster than the speed of light.

This is not a new idea. Newton proposed (albeit a somewhat lacking version of this idea) he called the "ether" a long time ago. Now some scientists are re-visiting his ideas and they are evolving. An example of some physics theory that is similar to what I'm attempting to explain:

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=6538

I don't necessarily think he's got everything right, but he's definitely on the right track, and I believe that this theory is much closer to the truth than Einstein's relativity.

[faerylight]

Yup, we're already in the source, we're also made of the source ourselves at the most fundamental level. The source is the background medium from which everything arises, whether it's a life form, an object (say a rock), even subatomic particles arise from this source.

This is very close to the ideas I have too.

[star]

I think the main way of noticing that sort of thing is going into an altered state of consciousness. I'm not saying its the only way, but probably the best way to notice energy at all.

Am I making sense? I know that in daily life that energy sensations arise, occasionally. I've just noticed that when you change into a trance or near trance state its more apparent.

Or even more difficult. For me anyway, might be becuase I'm sort off a rock when it comes to certain areas of metaphysics. (Energy sensation wise)

Although it changes per situation.

Ehh...

[Tom]

The whole point is to stop thinking so much because that covers up what you are looking for in ever more layers. Yes, I know it is too much fun to stop. No, I don't expect anyone to stop it.

[star]

I don't understand not thinking.

:)

Well as far as those times when your so tired that your inner chatter slows on tis own, that makes sense to me.

Lets say your sending Reiki, or doing any sort of energy work. My thoughts and affirminations direct the energy, or even start it up, or continue its flow.

Change directions ect, I do that all with thoughts.

Just got to practice with the no-thought I suppose.

[Tom]

Thinking about not thinking? That's as good as desiring to be free from desire.

I totally agree that silencing internal dialogue is extremely important, in fact a key factor in meditation as well as projection and just about every aspect of energy or spiritual exercise. But if we're going to share our understanding and ideas here then we're going to have to leave our trance sometime and get on the computer and post, which unfortunately necessitates a period of "thinking". And besides, it IS fun! Sometimes my desires are centered around altered states of consciousness, but almost equally, my desires are to enjoy the beauty of the intricacies of daily life. It all comes from the same place, as we've been discussing.

Also might as well add this thought. I attended a drumming with a native american shaman and he was telling stories to give a background to the songs he was drumming and singing, and he singled me out and explained a concept he called "simplicity through repetition". It is just as valid an approach to achieving trance as doing nothing.. you can lose yourself in repetition, in a moment, until all the moments become one and your awareness becomes what I'd describe as "timeless". This is probably a concept worthy of it's own thread but it just came to mind so I thought I'd share that experience and it's value for me. I plan on applying this type of meditation to my music. =)

[faerylight]

Also might as well add this thought. I attended a drumming with a native american shaman and he was telling stories to give a background to the songs he was drumming and singing, and he singled me out and explained a concept he called "simplicity through repetition". It is just as valid an approach to achieving trance as doing nothing.. you can lose yourself in repetition, in a moment, until all the moments become one and your awareness becomes what I'd describe as "timeless". This is probably a concept worthy of it's own thread but it just came to mind so I thought I'd share that experience and it's value for me. I plan on applying this type of meditation to my music. =)

That's cool. I like what you have to say Mal, very interesting stuff! :)

[Tempestinateapot]

Mal said:
I totally agree that silencing internal dialogue is extremely important, in fact a key factor in meditation as well as projection and just about every aspect of energy or spiritual exercise.I gave up trying to not think in meditation. I have major monkey brain. I can't get away from myself. I run, I hide, I ignore me. I get very offended when I ignore me. Nothing works. I just won't leave me alone. :lol: Good thing is, I discovered that once I reach a certain point in meditation, it all stops anyway. I don't have to think about not thinking as Tom so eloquently :P put it.

[wstein]

Yup, we're already in the source, we're also made of the source ourselves at the most fundamental level. The source is the background medium from which everything arises, whether it's a life form, an object (say a rock), even subatomic particles arise from this source.

This is very close to the ideas I have too.


From my own experience of being reduced to pure awareness/consciousness, I got the distinct impression that I was still a segment of the "source". I felt as though I compromised a discrete segment of that source. I felt energy flowing through me to other segments of the source, all intimately connected.This is basically what I experience. In addition, the area outside my segment is less accessible than the part inside. Its really frustrating to be able to see/know the big picture but be unable to access the rest of it.

----
For those that are in alignment here, a personal question: Do you experience this condition of being segmented but still part of the whole as painful?

It has caused me much grief over the years. I'm not 100% sure this is the cause.

My experience wasn't frustrating for me, or painful. It could be described as blissful. I felt as though the energy flowing though the source, through me, and to others, could best be described as "love". I really don't have words to properly describe the experience, but that's about as close as I can come. What is the source of your frustration?

I guess I can understand your frustration in wanting to access the whole, as a whole, but for me perceiving the "big picture" as you call it was like a glimpse of something extremely beautiful and profound, and I consider myself lucky to have experienced it. If other entities are composed of segments as well, we may be limited in how far we are able to permeate their segment. Otherwise, the seperate-ness might be dissolved. What exactly is your goal in wanting a deeper access into any other segment?

[Tom]

Let's do something about this thread to clean it up a little. If you think enlightenment is something you experience and move on afterward from, visiting from time to time, please start your own thread. If you think it is a love thing, please start your own thread. If you think it is about being one with everything, please start your own thread.

[CFTraveler]

So which one is this one?

[Excaliber]

The discussions about enlightenment seem to come up over and over. There are as many opinions as there are people. But, that's ok. I think that enlightenment is whatever you want it to be. Allowing other people to have their beliefs, and being ok with that, can be an important step in each of our evolutions.

[Excaliber]

It's much simpler than that. It's recognizing that you Are. You are God, you are the Source, you are the Everything, you are the I AM. Well, you and everything else. There is nothing that is not the Source. And, the only reason we are here is for the experience. We're not here for love, we're not here to live 1,000 human lives, we're not here for the hamburgers. :D We're here for the experience...period. That's it. That's all there is. Everything else is just icing on the cake.
i agree, what do you think Jman?

How enlightening...! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[star]

Its not a mystical experience is what i'm hearing. Its not something; "Wow! That was awesome, I hope to do that again sometime."

Its more like: "I'm there, and can't ever go back now."

[wstein]

Its not a mystical experience is what i'm hearing. Its not something; "Wow! That was awesome, I hope to do that again sometime."

Its more like: "I'm there, and can't ever go back now." Oh how brief the rush of discovery
Oh how powerfully it sweeps aside the trash
Oh how wonderfully the scales fall from the eyes
Oh how astounding the possibilities
Oh how crushing the implications
Oh how naked I've always been

-----------------------
Mystical, most definitely. But yes, you can't just go back and pretend you didn't see. True one never hopes to do that again, but even more one hopes to never have to (better to wake up than remain asleep). Though you might wish for it, not all mystical experiences end with warm fuzzy feelings. Mystical experiences are more about profoundness than positive feelings.

[faerylight]

Yup, we're already in the source, we're also made of the source ourselves at the most fundamental level. The source is the background medium from which everything arises, whether it's a life form, an object (say a rock), even subatomic particles arise from this source.

This is very close to the ideas I have too.


From my own experience of being reduced to pure awareness/consciousness, I got the distinct impression that I was still a segment of the "source". I felt as though I compromised a discrete segment of that source. I felt energy flowing through me to other segments of the source, all intimately connected.This is basically what I experience. In addition, the area outside my segment is less accessible than the part inside. Its really frustrating to be able to see/know the big picture but be unable to access the rest of it.

----
For those that are in alignment here, a personal question: Do you experience this condition of being segmented but still part of the whole as painful?

It has caused me much grief over the years. I'm not 100% sure this is the cause.

I don't know so much as being painful... I do experience, at times, a powerful longing to "go home", that home I picture is a state of understanding, a state of being that knows it's connectedness. I get this feeling when I feel very, very separate from everything. Ya, I guess it is painful sometimes.

I remember having an intense vision one night and I'll try to describe it, but it's tough to put into words. There was this awareness, it was much like a sphere, a bubble, with all these smaller spheres inside it, they felt like memories of something experiencing itself. I saw the bubble I was in and this world and everything that is in this world flash before me. In that moment, I understood we are all made from the same fabric, if that makes sense. I can't describe it really.

Years ago I had the "it's all an illusion" idea, which at times, left me breathless when I thought about it and really messed with my head for a while. It took a while but I had to decide that OK, well if it is, it still doesn't change the fact of what I experience on a day to day level, I still have to go to a crappy job, I still have to buy cat food, I still have to pay rent. Since then, it matters little whether or not it's an illusion, I'm just trying to find my way still and sometimes the experience is grand, sometimes it really sucks. What interests me most at this point is discovering the tools I can use to navigate through this, whatever this is. At some point, I had to simply be OK with not knowing or understanding and get back to developing my experience.

:wink: nothing is supposed to make any sense. i don't know where i picked up the idea that it was?!? school maybe? my parents? everything having to add up. add up to what? i wasted lots of time with that concept. or...have i?
time really being just another measurement for working out & adding up.

it doesn't matter if someone has a doctorate, or someone is illiterate, or five years old, or 105. if they're black or white, or mexican, or catholic, male or female. rich or poor, self-proclaimed or not. we all sleep, breath, put stuff in one end and have it come out the other. and at this point that's about as complicated as i want to be about it all. i didn't just wake up one morning and have it all that basic. i've gone really deep, real introspective. and i'll tell ya, it's kind of a waste of energy.

i know about the regular day-to-day stuff. hard to be enlightened in all that's going on around us individually. impossible to connect with that peaceful bliss. the cat food thing. is funny for me. i know if i was to vanish the cats would revert back to wild, and be just fine without me. but that thought won't register fully. i know my family would be fine without me. i know it doesn't matter if i'm here or not. and that's sort of freaky. sorta not. i hear people say they need to work, need to pay their bills, need to do this and that, but we all know somewhere deep down...we don't need to do any of those things.

i guess that's where i have a short fuse at times. that i feel caught up in a system, in a bunch of garbage that's been put together over time as 'functional', and it's so not functional to me. and i get a little crazy when i hear folks insist that it's the way. or that anyway...is the way.
how do you deconstruct all that?!? you don't.

you get with the program or leave.

kind like the rules of this forum, and where a lot of issues come up for me.
i'm not here to change anyones thinking. but i do stand behind the idea of 'thinking a lot less'. this entire platform is built around thought though. if everyone stopped thinking. we wouldn't be here. so...just another conundrum for me!

[faerylight]

i hear people say they need to work, need to pay their bills, need to do this and that, but we all know somewhere deep down...we don't need to do any of those things.

We don't have to do those things at all. I have been homeless before though, carrying my baggage (such a moment for me - standing on a street corner, waiting for the light to change, feeling the weight of the 'bags' I was carrying around), wondering how the hell I was going to eat that day. I made the conscious decision to work and make money so I can have a warm bed to sleep in, provide a safe place for my Rockie Kitty and know where my next meal is coming from - having experienced both, I prefer the latter. ;) Ya, he would be fine without me, my family would be fine, no big deal for me to really be here, in fact, at times, I wish I could just bail out because I don't think much of what we have done with this place (Earth). BUT - I am here, why? I have no idea, I just am. So, might as well try to make something of it.


i guess that's where i have a short fuse at times. that i feel caught up in a system, in a bunch of garbage that's been put together over time as 'functional', and it's so not functional to me. and i get a little crazy when i hear folks insist that it's the way. or that anyway...is the way.
how do you deconstruct all that?!? you don't.

I cannot tell you how many times I was pissed off to my very core about this BS system and feeling forced to participate or else your life can really suck (again, personal preference talking). I remember going on a rant when I was being trained in Sales about 10 years ago, about the monetary system and how stupid it is that we all agree this imaginary idea actually means something, lol. The person training me was really annoyed with me. :twisted: In short, I can relate!


you get with the program or leave.

To me, it's about action and consequence within a system I don't particulary care for. I guess I just had to find out what I wanted and do what it took to get that. Some things come at a cost - a warm, cozy safe place to sleep? Gotta sell your time and energy to someone. It sucks and it totally pisses me off at times, but sadly, it is what it is. :|

[Tempestinateapot]

faerylight said:
I remember having an intense vision one night and I'll try to describe it, but it's tough to put into words. There was this awareness, it was much like a sphere, a bubble, with all these smaller spheres inside it, they felt like memories of something experiencing itself. I saw the bubble I was in and this world and everything that is in this world flash before me. In that moment, I understood we are all made from the same fabric, if that makes sense. I can't describe it really. OMG! This is really similar to experiences written by Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen! Have you read any of their books? I had an experience that was really close to what you described. But mine was like an octopus shape...with the orb in the center and straight light beam projections going out to other smaller orbs that were actual people and other beings, and I could see their lives. Robert Monroe called it his "I-There" or Higher Self, but described at as (can't remember) either a sphere or an oval. Also called it the "Disk" experience. Moen called it his "Disk".

wstein said:
Oh how brief the rush of discovery
Oh how powerfully it sweeps aside the trash
Oh how wonderfully the scales fall from the eyes
Oh how astounding the possibilities
Oh how crushing the implications
Oh how naked I've always been I love this. It so describes what happenend to me. It's terrifying and awesome at the same time. Before that, the "Disk" experiences had been some of the most powerful experiences I had had. Very mystical. But, after the "scales fall from the eyes" part, I understood the difference. The mystical experiences are like walking up to the door, you think you're getting there, but you never quite make it. Walking through the door is what it's all about. You walk through the door and step into the Void with nothing left to sustain you...no beliefs, no family and friends, no happy metaphysical ideas that we are working towards Oneness. You find the raw, naked, explosive truth that you are there, you are Oneness because there isn't any other. It's terrifying and extraordinarily powerful at the same time. Like Muse said, you are now stuck in the conundrum. Why feed the cats? That's the conundrum.

[faerylight]

faerylight said:
I remember having an intense vision one night and I'll try to describe it, but it's tough to put into words. There was this awareness, it was much like a sphere, a bubble, with all these smaller spheres inside it, they felt like memories of something experiencing itself. I saw the bubble I was in and this world and everything that is in this world flash before me. In that moment, I understood we are all made from the same fabric, if that makes sense. I can't describe it really. OMG! This is really similar to experiences written by Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen! Have you read any of their books? I had an experience that was really close to what you described. But mine was like an octopus shape...with the orb in the center and straight light beam projections going out to other smaller orbs that were actual people and other beings, and I could see their lives. Robert Monroe called it his "I-There" or Higher Self, but described at as (can't remember) either a sphere or an oval. Also called it the "Disk" experience. Moen called it his "Disk".

Hmm... No, I haven't read anything by them.

I love how The Monroe Institute is called TMI for short though, lol (TMI = Too Much Information). :)

TMI indeed!

i didn't respond to your experience, but i've been there a myself as well. mine more tube-ish double-helix looking. it was fascinating, but more the overall feeling that i was being shown something important.

i know what you mean about just going with the flow. i too have been homeless. i've slept on park benches, in shelters, etc. no possessions. (actually on one level or another i've always been homeless). anyway...living on the street was a very quiet time for me mentally. plays into ideas i have about how comfort & idle time can lead to feeling 'disturbed'. too much time to think, and one isn't doing enough work. but i'm sure there's a flaw in there somewhere! ;)

to clarify what i meant. is just that it pisses me off that one can't stop without winding up in a f--ked up situation with 'nothing'. *bcuz* the system is still in play. it still rules the day. *but* if everyone was to just stop altogether. it wouldn't be that 'nothing'. that's a hard concept to put into words. like if you stop using money...you're pretty much screwed. but if we all stopped using money...it would be something different. people are home-less bcuz the rest of the people viewing them, summing them up, have homes. and they take great pride, and find much security & warmth in those boxes. esp. when they *think* they own them (that's another topic). but if no one had a home...there'd be no such thing as homeless.

i always think about that idea where there's no orphans with inuit's. where the entire village is the family. somehow our system has strayed very far away from those basics. there's also a native indian story about pets. about how man domesticated cats & dogs for friendship & security, and now it's our responsibility to care for them, and all their off-spring, bcuz we 'messed' them up. took them out of their element and made them *dependent*. i guess that's why i used it as an example.

there isn't anything to do about it. the system. i hope it collapses in all honesty. i see very clearly where it could at any moment. it wouldn't be the best route. very messy! but there doesn't seem to be any other way.

even jesus christ himself couldn't solve this one! i'm not saying people have to 'go without'. sleep on the cement. starve. i was thinking more tribal, but if nothing else it's good to keep shifting priorities and not get to *use* to anything in particular.

Look for the bare necessities
The simple bare necessities
Forget about your worries and your strife
I mean the bare necessities
Old Mother Nature's recipes
That brings the bare necessities of life

Wherever I wander, wherever I roam
I couldn't be fonder of my big home
The bees are buzzin' in the tree
To make some honey just for me
When you look under the rocks and plants
And take a glance at the fancy ants
Then maybe try a few

The bare necessities of life will come to you
They'll come to you!

Look for the bare necessities
The simple bare necessities
Forget about your worries and your strife
I mean the bare necessities
That's why a bear can rest at ease
With just the bare necessities of life

Now when you pick a pawpaw
Or a prickly pear
And you prick a raw paw
Next time beware
Don't pick the prickly pear by the paw
When you pick a pear
Try to use the claw
But you don't need to use the claw
When you pick a pear of the big pawpaw
Have I given you a clue ?

The bare necessities of life will come to you
They'll come to you!

So just try and relax, yeah cool it
Fall apart in my backyard
'Cause let me tell you something little britches
If you act like that bee acts, uh uh
You're working too hard

And don't spend your time lookin' around
For something you want that can't be found
When you find out you can live without it
And go along not thinkin' about it
I'll tell you something true

The bare necessities of life will come to you

[Tempestinateapot]

I have this vision of you dancing around in a bear suit. :lol:

get out of my head!
i thought you were leaving!
http://mysticmysfits.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/pooh_lol.gif

[Tempestinateapot]

Taking a sabbatical. Get my head screwed on right. Or, left. I'm not sure which. :D I'll be posting as a non-admin./non-member. Just think of me as a ghost writer. :shock:

[faerylight]

I relate Muse. One thing my father did pass on to me was a genuine respect for native peoples. I suppose I get some of my distrust and distaste for "modern" society from him. Thanks? At least he did not push onto me a love and 'need' for the system. He questioned a lot of what was going on around him. I remember doing a little voice play with him on a funky, old tape recorder, when I was about 9 years old, about a journalist (me) interviewing a very, very old hermit (him). God, I haven't thought of that in years! Anyway, the hermit was talking about how society had made a 'wrong' turn somewhere, how we forgot our ties to the Earth. This 'character' he created became a hermit because he could no longer tolerate living in what the world had become.

Somewhere deep inside I long to return to how it used to be. How we all provided for eachother, revered our Mother (Earth) and spoke our truth in a circle of our peers. Have no idea where that comes from though and honestly, not sure I would have what it takes to really survive in that kind of system if I went back to it tomorrow, I mean, it was hard f'n work. But, it was a clean system, balanced, self moderating - allowing Nature to do her thing and keep us in check.

I love your "Bare Necessities" post - Jungle Book, right? If you look around and pay attention to what Nature is saying, you can learn all you need to know. :) I guess part of the trick is to remember how to listen.

This is neither here nor there though, and, like always, maybe I'm just full of crap.

we're all full of crap. technically.

i love what you have to say. and yeah...that's what i have an incredible longing for as well. that system. not this one. the best i can break it down is 'artificial' & 'natural'. it's the duality i can't get around. a lot of work yes, but through that work...chopping wood, carrying water. wax on, wax off...i think we we're closure to spirit then than ever.

it is beyond me though...the desire for that. from as far back as i can remember. it's been my passion. i need a system that nurtures. not one that feeds off me.

[journyman161]

I think we seem to have lost a certain something as we 'developed' our civilisation. For some reason when this subject comes up I always connect with the idea that Man fell - there seems to me to be a link between the Fall & our desire for 'things' & I think maybe the 2 are directly related.

I can't help wondering if the desire for solid objects IS the Fall or the major symptom of it. That maybe we lost sight of things spiritual & started glorifying the ownership of solidity.

Certainly the owning of things doesn't seem to bring any increased happiness to those who get them - instead their behaviour resembles that of addicts - they have to own more & more. It's like there's a tolerance level involved. You 'want' some'thing' & when you get it there's a brief 'rush' of ownership, but then it isn't enough anymore & you need to own some'thing' new.

And our society has made it even worse - when I was a kid, you'd want some'thing' but you'd have to save up for it, which had 2 consequences. It made you really evaluate how much you wanted the thing & it gave time for the urge to pass if it was just a fad. Now with credit cards, it takes longer to get the urge to buy than it does to buy - then you're stuck with the paying it off.

And this is all aside from the fact that our rampant consumerism is killing the planet.

This post may come off as a little controversial. I get a lot of hassle over my lifestyle. I've been homeless myself, lived in shelters, etc. I am "disabled". I won't go into personal details on a public forum regarding how or why I'm disabled, but I will explain how being "disabled" can allow someone to take advantage of a system that is otherwise oppressive.

I will say, I live in the US. As for the welfare, or public assistance systems of other countries I really can't speak for them. What happens when you're disabled in the US, is you see a medical doctor who signs a form stating you are unable to work. Once this occurs, whether it's for physical disabilities, or MENTAL disabilities.. then you're considered disabled. You are eligible for free health care insurance, you get a small cash allowance every month, and you get a small food stamp allowance every month.

There is a nationwide program that is operated on a per-county basis, that is known as Section 8/HUD or the <county> housing authority. If you apply for their assistance, and are homeless, they will immediately assist you in paying your rent once you find an apartment. If you're not homeless, you will be put on a waiting list. You pay 1/3 of your income towards rent, minus utility allowances. If you're disabled, then they pay most if not all of your rent, given your small income. Through welfare, if you're on the small income of welfare or disability, you will be eligible for an energy assistance grant.. that pays your heating/electricity costs.

In this scenario.. you basically have a "nice comfy place to sleep at night" without ever working, for free or very little per month (if there is any cost it is within the limits of your cash assistance). You do not have to work. This lifestyle is not for everyone, because you will not have the extra cash that you might from a lifestyle of working somewhere where you make a fairly large amount of money. But it is a viable alternative to spending 40 hours a week working. I value my time very much, so I have chosen to spend it the way I choose, doing what I enjoy, learning, rather than spending my time pursuing wealth, or possessions.

I personally have chosen not to conform to society or capitalism, I will not become a part of perpetuating the system. I have no moral dilemma in exploiting it for my own means, if that means I have my time to do as I please, and my freedom which I feel I deserve to begin with. I just want to let people who are unhappy with there situation know that there is always another way.

There may of course be those who have a job that they absolutely love and enjoy doing, and that is great. I sincerely hope that everyone is given the opportunity to do what they enjoy most for a living, but that doesn't seem to be the case for most people currently, at least from my perspective.

MalevolenT,

i don't have a problem with it personally. although i could probably make some point about it being part of the problem...through dependency. my father in particular over the years has seemed to favor this lifestyle as a solution for me. :roll: not a big deal, but this is the pot smoking, hippy, artist that had me living off-grid for the first part of my life, teaching me all about native beliefs, and how the man will keep you down. for the next 20 yrs. it was all about 'you have to put your dreams aside and get a 'real' job' (not be an artist), and in between it all...continuing to tell me that if i couldn't handle a real job. "if life was so difficult"...i should go on disability. sometimes i swear my dad is one of those invasion of the body snatcher victims!

i've never been on welfare, or disability. i don't know why i'm opposed to it?!? i'd be making a lot more money doing that then my art. i think it's the dependency. how subtly it creeps in and takes hold. for me personally. i have a lot of issues about being dependent in any manner with anything.

where i believe it to be a problem on a large scale...isn't anything to do with the fact that it's taking advantage of the responsible, productive, tax paying citizen. taxes are a joke. it's what i see for the future of mankind. what i've been shown in vision, along with a lot of n.w.o stuff that's creeping online. and one would have be a bit of conspiracy junkie to see it fully. or take it seriously as a problem. but...the idea is to eventually outlaw any sort of 'rural' lifestyle, and draw everyone into 'utopian epicenters'.

i'm sure a lot of people have seen doc's on 'cities of the future'. there's a huge movement in china, and japan currently. if anyone wants a good example of it happening here in the u.s. and soon globally...............take a look towards google. (example here) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHu3hXSl7M4)

what's wrong with that? what's the problem of living, working, playing, dating, vacationing...all in the same building?!? first of all...i have issues with "complexes" ;) anyone that's read any of my 'stuff' knows that much of it revolves around such complexes (in not so nice ways). but more then that...it's really just a nice, fluffy prison. where there's no personal control. government at it's finest. hard to explain all the implications involved. has to with my resistance on the whole "oneness" movement. but it will be delivered under the guise of convenience. you won't need a car first off. sick? there'll be a hospital. daycare? no problem. entertainment galore. indoor water parks, fitness centers, all the shopping you could want. and lots of profiling. like match.com.....they'll hook ya up! need a job? no problem. lots of perks on top of that. free utilities, free wifi, free healthcare. food credits, yada-yada.

still some will ask...'yeah, but *whats* the problem?'
constant surveillance. and control at the hands of a system that cares not. a little too hive-ish for my taste! remembering that it only takes one generation to change a nation, it's culture, it's wisdom. already the average kid doesn't go outside. not far away from the old manipulation of insisting that the 'woods are full of monsters'. (anyone see "the village"?) and when that child is born *in* the complex, raised in it. well....it's not hard to see that happening. install the program...the fear, and the individual will imprison themselves!!!

everything will be "given" and in that sense...they can also "taketh away"!
(the next movie that fits in..............the island!) ('where do the tubes go'?)

i won't go on about it. it's probably a whole topic of it's own. and i think i've roughed out my perspective enough. just...anything that leads *towards* dependency...is leading away from growth, maturity, evolution of our species...maybe our species altogether!?! i think it highly-dangerous to exchange comforts & conveniences for liberty. when i look at the people i know...i see where (easily) 95% will jump at it. welcome it. praise it in total. so....doesn't look good.

i'll be in a cave somewhere...hiding from unmanned drones!!! ;)
maybe performing surgery to remove the brain-implants for escapee's?!?
everyone ready for Internet3???????

it's all pointing in the same scary direction. i think.

********

Jman, have a response (sort of) is a little different. not on the move towards 'materialism', which i agree is for sure a FALL, but more in the move towards 'spiritualism'...and something i envisioned last night. will take a bit of energy to twist it into something that makes sense (probably it's own thread as well). just, you know those thoughts that pop into mind like a mac truck?!? was like that. it was very clear at the time, but i'm sure i'll do my best to make a mess of it, and piss a few people off in the process! ;)

[faerylight]

I think the disability system can really help those who cannot fit into the system - funny we call those who can't fit into the current system as "disabled"!!!! Ew.

I was on disability for a few years - severe post-partum depression. It helped a lot for a while and did get me off the street. It also strongly supported the part of me that said "I can't do it! The State says I can't, I can't!!"

What finally got me off my butt was when it ran out. Either go back to the street, which was not an option, in part because I had just rescued a very sick little kitten (or did he resue me? My heart was crying out for love and he showed up :)) and I wanted to care for him. Seriously, my cat was my primary motivation for making a *choice* to conform, make money and provide my own shelter and food. Even though it is within the current crappy system, it has given me a sense of personal empowerment by being able to care for myself. That's just me and my story though.

[Tempestinateapot]

I'm a big controversy in my family, because they are all loyal, tax paying, flag toting citizens, and don't believe there should be any welfare or government help. "Let those lazy son's of b... get off their rear and get a job" is their battle cry. I can't even talk to them about it anymore, because it escalates into a huge fight and isn't worth it. I'm not going to change their mind, and they aren't going to change mine.

I came from money, but was financially abandoned (cut off) when I married someone they didn't approve of. After the divorce, I had a 5 and 6 year old sons to take care of. The only governmental help I received was for medical bills for my son with cancer (to the tune of about $300,000.00). He would have died if that kind of aid wasn't available. For almost 3 years, the 3 of us lived on less than $3,000 a year (yes a year). I went to nursing school, worked two part-time jobs, cared for my sons, and spent hundreds of hours at the hospital while my son received chemo. We were eligible for just about any kind of government help you can think of. I didn't take it. I looked into the sponsored housing, but the waiting period was several years (get in line).

I had to live in an area that wasn't terribly safe because of the cost of housing. The reason I write this is because I don't recommend what Malevolent is suggesting for anyone with children. One day I found a kid twice as big as my son, banging my son's head into tree, over and over. I had thieves break into my apartment while I was standing there. Those are the years of my life I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Not enough people in the U.S. have had to live in circumstances like the last several posts. It makes them immune to the pain and struggles the poor have. There is more sympathy for the South African poor than there is here because Africa is in the news. People should take a walk through the poor neighborhoods of their towns and cities and see there is as much suffering here as there.

Yeah, I'd have to agree.. If I had children I wouldn't have chosen this path.. I would sacrifice my own time for them to have more opportunities. My parents did not do this for me however, so my options were limited. I worked for 8 years after graduating high school, first pretty much minimum wage jobs, then I got certified as an EMT ( emergency medical tech. - the people that drive ambulances ).

I really liked the idea of helping people, until I started working and they didn't offer any health care, and only paid $9/hr. This still wasn't enough for me to live on my own, pay for my own place and vehicle, food, for separate insurance, and other bills. So I decided to pursue another route that would give me the most freedom with how I used my time.

As far as the choices in housing, section 8 sort of has a bad stereotype of only being available in bad areas.. this is not always the case. I found a duplex apartment in a great part of town, you don't have to choose pre-approved places, you can pick your own apartment wherever and have them inspect it.

I have always had a great interest in learning whatever I could, in experiencing new things, spending time outdoors, and spending time with the people I cared about. I live on the same street as my grandparents, and I help take care of them, despite my own disabilities. Right now, this is what I have chosen. I know there will be people who will look down on the path I've chosen and say that I'm a drain on society, but they don't see things from my perspective. I didn't create this society, and I don't approve of it, so I feel I owe society nothing. To each their own, their opinion of me does not concern me in the least.

When I think of the amount of taxes that go towards building more weapons, towards war, the billions ( even trillions.. eventually ) that will be spent in iraq ... so that we can replace their government with one which will allow the US gov't access to their natural resources on IT's terms.. all while poverty rises inside of the US .. it seems to me that MORE taxes should go towards helping people in poverty within the US. The small amount people receive from public assistance pales in comparison.

When we talk about being dependent on something.. it's sort of inevitable no matter what path you choose.. if you're working.. you're depending on continued employment.. if you're not .. then you're depending on assistance, but it's not a trade for your time, which is the deciding factor for me. Even if you decide to live in the wilderness, you're dependent on your environment. It's always going to a dependent relationship, but we do have a choice in what type of relationship, or dependency we choose, and each offers it's own benefits and downsides, which was really what I was trying to express using myself as an example.

But, I've pretty much taken this thread WAAY off track, so I digress.. If anyone wants to continue this topic pm me and let me know to start a separate thread, or feel free to start your own. This thread was about the journey of expanding consciousness, and it has succeeded in accumulating a lot of insights and different perspectives regarding this.

[Tempestinateapot]

It's my thread and I don't care if it gets derailed. Feel free to post whatever you wan't.

To start a thread, just click on the forum that seems a good place to put your topic in. On the top left is a button that says "New Topic". Click on that and start your post. You have to make up a title for the thread, it says "Subject", and type it in or your thread won't post.

[elendal]

I must say I find this discussion really interesting. I believe some people here have hit a wall I myself hit some time ago. :)

There are so many topics here that it's hard to start with any single one, but I'll try to follow some order.

Firstly, it is my understanding that having beliefs, in actuality, is not even optional.

As human beings, we are compelled to "make lists" of our knowledge. In other words, we are compelled to have beliefs. Even believing we don't have beliefs is a belief. See the problem? It's not possible for us to function in this world without beliefs. And I have no doubt every other being in this universe faces the same situation.

What separates "warriors" (as a term used in Castaneda's books) is to realize that situation.

Just like any other man or woman, warriors are also compelled to make lists. But, then, they do something most people don't even consider as an option - they take their lists and they laugh at them. :lol: For that reason, I like to say that I "believe without believing anything"... Funny enough, I found out much later that Castaneda used the same expression, but that's another story. (synchronicites, you know... popping up all the "time" :))

Secondly, why are we compelled to have beliefs?

Well, it seems they are necessary part of experiencing the world. Beliefs are just another form of structured information, or simply - knowledge. Experience forms knowledge, thus experience forms beliefs. Pretty simple, isn't it?

Now that we know we must experience the world, what makes us do so?

Well (again), it seems there is a set of commands every living being in this universe must follow. The Source discussed in this thread seems to be the actual source of a command to experience. We are indeed part of that Source, but we are not the Source itself. We are just drops of water in the ocean of consciousness that is the Source.

Why that source wants our experience is beyond me, but since I'm a software designer, you'll forgive me for using the following analogy (it's simply a part of my list :)).

To me, it looks like that every living being, physical, astral, etherial, or any other, is being used as a processing unit.

What I know (or think I know ;)) of the world I live in, pretty well describes the point of processing information - finding patterns of data, gathering knowledge, finding solutions to problems. These are all the things every living being in this universe does, whether it knows it or not, whether it likes it or not.

This set of commands that all beings follow is NOT something written in stone. It evolves as knowledge evolves, and it actually reminds me of some sort of self-organizing structure. Pretty much like a baby forms into grown up person.

Now, is this Source - "All There Is", or is this Source just a giant computer designed by some completely incomprehensible beings? That is completely beyond me. We can discuss such a possibility, but I don't think that will get us anywhere. For all I know, this universe could be just a giant baby in a shell, waiting to learn enough to break through the shell, and come out into the... really, really real world... and for real this time... :lol:

So many possibilities... which one to choose? :lol:

And finally, this is where the wall from the begining of the post comes into picture. We seem to keep finding out the same things countless people have found out before us - there is a limit to our knowledge in our current (human) form.

I couldn't say it better than what I read in Castaneda's book, so I'll put a brief excerpt here. "The Eagle" mentioned in the excerpt can be seen as the same "Source" you have been discussing so passionately ;).

(complete text of the book -> http://www.terebess.hu/english/fire1.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
He told me then that before he could explain the Eagle's emanations, he had to talk about the known, the unknown, and the unknowable. Most of the truths about awareness were discovered by the old seers, he said. But the order in which they were arranged had been worked out by the new seers. And without that order those truths were nearly incomprehensible.

He said that not to seek order was one of the great mistakes that the ancient seers made. A deadly consequence of that mistake was their assumption that the unknown and the unknowable are the same thing. It was up to the new seers to correct that error. They set up boundaries and defined the unknown as something that is veiled from man, shrouded perhaps by a terrifying context, but which, nonetheless, is within man's reach. The unknown becomes the known at a given time. The unknowable, on the other hand, is the indescribable, the unthinkable, the unrealizable. It is something that will never be known to us, and yet it is there, dazzling and at the same time horrifying in its vastness.

"How can seers make the distinction between the two?" I asked.

"There is a simple rule of thumb," he said. "In the face of the unknown, man is adventurous. It is a quality of the unknown to give us a sense of hope and happiness. Man feels robust, exhilarated. Even the apprehension that it arouses is very fulfilling. The new seers saw that man is at his best in the face of the unknown."

He said that whenever what is taken to be the unknown turns out to be the unknowable the results are disastrous. Seers feel drained, confused. A terrible oppression takes possession of them. Their bodies lose tone, their reasoning and sobriety wander away aimlessly, for the unknowable has no energizing effects whatsoever. It is not within human reach; therefore, it should not be intruded upon foolishly or even prudently. The new seers realized that they had to be prepared to pay exorbitant prices for the faintest contact with it.

Don Juan explained that the new seers had had formidable barriers of tradition to overcome. At the time when the new cycle began, none of them knew for certain which procedures of their immense tradition were the right ones and which were not. Obviously, something had gone wrong with the ancient seers, but the new seers did not know what. They began by assuming that everything their predecessors had done was erroneous. Those ancient seers had been the masters of conjecture. They had, for one thing, assumed that their proficiency in seeing was a safeguard. They thought that they were untouchable. That is, until the invaders smashed them, and put most of them to horrendous deaths. The ancient seers had no protection whatsoever, despite their total certainty that they were invulnerable.

The new seers did not waste their time in speculations about what went wrong. Instead, they began to map the unknown in order to separate it from the unknowable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Castaneda's books have some great perspectives, I think you may have touched on what he called "recapitulation" in other works earlier in your post. I have come to the conclusion that the ONE, and the EAGLE from Castaneda's books are in fact the same phenomenon.

I have had limited experience with it so I can't really explain much more about it than I have, and what I have attempted to explain about my experiences with it is severely limited and obfuscated by language itself... there really are no words to describe it in any language in which I'm fluent.. if only we could all transmit our knowledge and experiences to each other telepathically, we might avoid so many of the problems of language and misinterpretations.

I don't see the "ONE" or the "EAGLE" or the "ether" as any final existential truth, but I do think that in our current energetic states it IS a barrier for us. The one may exist as part of something else... I have always considered the universe to be infinite, and as such it may be one universe within an infinite many universes. aka... the "unknowable" ;)

[sono]

If i may add my tuppence worth here - have you read UG Krishnamurti, who left the body last week? He seems to have hit the nail on the thumb (sic!) & yet . . . . . . .any thoughts ABOUT enlightenment cannot BE about enlightenment because the thought/thinker cannot EXPERIENCE enlightenment; thought/memory can only apprehend what it already KNOWS, so the un-knowable cannot be RECOGNISED as such - so presumably the Being postulating elightenmnent would not even be "aware" of it if he/she WERE enlightenend. And UG offers NO hope, NO consolation - which is somehow very comforting (!) The ultimate Koan!

Enlightenment is a KNOWING, that can come from EXPERIENCE. One who is enlightened has a particular understanding of their existence that enhances the clarity of their awareness, and perception of their reality. This clarity or understanding can change from moment to moment, as can our reality and perception, which are a continual stream or movement of thought, consciousness, and awareness. My statement applies to spiritual enlightenment, and an understanding from a spiritual perspective.

[wstein]

If i may add my tuppence worth here - have you read UG Krishnamurti, who left the body last week? He seems to have hit the nail on the thumb (sic!) & yet . . . . . . .any thoughts ABOUT enlightenment cannot BE about enlightenment because the thought/thinker cannot EXPERIENCE enlightenment; thought/memory can only apprehend what it already KNOWS, so the un-knowable cannot be RECOGNISED as such - so presumably the Being postulating elightenmnent would not even be "aware" of it if he/she WERE enlightenend. And UG offers NO hope, NO consolation - which is somehow very comforting (!) The ultimate Koan!I believe that that knowing and experiencing are not dependant on one another. Knowing is about having a representation of something in your mind/brain/memory. Experience is the accumulation of events that have happened to 'you' whether or not you have any clue that they happened.

Just because something is unknowable does not mean that you can't know its there. Its just that you can't know what it is. This situation can be confusing at first because while in direct contact with an unknowable, one can interact with it in pretty much a normal manner. Experiencing does not require knowing, interacting is experiencing. So it all seems normal until contact is broken with the unknowable. Then suddenly there's no recollection of the unknowable. The experience (and its effects) remains though any attempt to determine what caused the experience leads to a mystery. If you are quick and circumstances are favorable, one can navigate by brail and relocate the unknowable by 'accidentally' making contact with it. Of course there's no guarantee that it the same unknowable as the last encounter as there's no way to compare them unless you are in contact with both at the same time.

-------------

Enlightenment is a state of being, neither a knowing or an experience. Although you can't know enlightenment, one can know that one is enlightened. Similarly one can't experience enlightenment but one can have experiences while enlightened.

[elendal]

I've never read anything U.G. Krishnamurti wrote, but a quick search on Google led me to this site http://www.well.com/~jct/.

Really nice "not-teaching", I must say. :lol: Kind of reminds me of Castaneda's "not-doing". Actually, I can understand what U.G. Krishnamurti tried to do, and I think he did a great job.

I'll have to use Castaneda's terms again. I hope I'll be able to make it understandable for those who never read any of his books...

Castaneda used the expression "assemblage point" to describe all possible positions of perceiving the world. It has to do with aligning our awarness/energy with the outside awarness/energy that allows us to perceive, but I won't go into any details here.

What is interesting is that there seem to be two stable positions of "assemblage point" that allow us (human beings), not just to perceive and experience, but also to understand the world.

The first position is the one of reason and logic. Science is the ultimate product of that position. We have been in that position for a long time, and it seems to us (the western civilization, at least) it's the only possible one.

The second position is the one Castaneda termed "the silent knowledge". It is a position in which you know something, without a shadow of a doubt, without thinking or feeling anything. This was our position in the distant past. The past we don't even remember any more.

The main difference between these two positions is that reason is the ultimate position from which a man or a woman can function in this ordinary world - the one we all know so well. The silent knowledge is the ultimate position to function from in the un-ordinary world - the astral, the dreams... any name will suffice.

Castaneda used "tonal" for the former world, and "nagual" for the later one, but these are also just names.

Silent knowledge cannot be efficiently used in the ordinary world, reason cannot be efficiently used in the un-ordinary world. Only by using them both one can achieve "enlightement" (whatever that's supposed to mean :)).

So, yes, you are quite correct. One can be "enlightened" while having reason that knows absolutely nothing about it. Such "enlightened" person is really split into two almost separate beings, each one performing at its best in its half of the world, only occasionally communicationg with the other half.

Even being "enlightened", such a person hasn't yet achieved complete integration of his or her being. This integration is the goal of warriors, but it's far from being the end of journey.

Here's another quote. And no links this time. It seems information gets lost when one posts links to it... ;)

It doesn't really matter. The change has already begun.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
... Only a human being who is a paragon of reason can move his assemblage point easily and be a paragon of silent knowledge. Only those who are squarely in either position can see the other position clearly. That was the way the age of reason came to being. The position of reason was clearly seen from the position of silent knowledge...

... The one-way bridge from silent knowledge to reason is called "concern." That is, the concern that true men of silent knowledge have about the source of what they know. And the other one-way bridge, from reason to silent knowledge, is called "pure understanding." That is, the recognition that tells the man of reason that reason is only one island in an endless sea of islands...

... A human being who has both one-way bridges working is a sorcerer in direct contact with the spirit, the vital force that makes both positions possible...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So what did U.G. Krishnamurti really do?

He attacked the reason. And he did it with the most powerful weapon reason can be attacked with - the paradox. Since reason is based on logic, paradox has the ability to shatter all of the constructs of reason, only if it's applied correctly. And that U.G. Krishnamurti did extremely well.

He didn't teach paradox like some paths of buddhism do. He actually lived one.

A teacher who teaches nothing, and by teaching nothing teaches the truth! :lol:

It's just beautiful. There are really no words to express it. :)

What you are referring to is the "second attention" or the orientation of the assemblage point during "dreaming". In Castaneda's books, "dreaming" did not consist of only normal dreams, but also out of body experiences, astral projection, etc. Mastering the first and second attention is only the first baby step in the path of a "Warrior", or "Sorcerer".

Once one can manipulate the assemblage point, it becomes apparent that there are an infinite many orientations of the assemblage point, and that positioning the assemblage point and focusing ones awareness upon that position or orientation (thereby fixing it), produces the perception of a reality inherent to that orientation. This means if we master manipulating our assemblage point we can master focusing awareness on ANY reality we choose to perceive. The more focused our awareness, the better we can fix our assemblage point at this orientation, thereby avoiding "reality fluctuations".

This is one of my main goals, that of mastering my awareness, honing it so that I may focus or "fix" my assemblage point on whatever reality I choose to perceive. There are many steps towards this goal, and while attempting to achieve them I also intend to enjoy and appreciate every aspect of both the first attention, and the second attention. In other words, I intend to enjoy and appreciate daily life while I pursue these goals.

One of my most meaningful personal projections was telling of this goal. In Castaneda's books, Don Juan and Don Genaro open a crack in reality and enter into another reality.

In my projection, I arrived at what could be described as a temple. There were 3 large symbols, much like paintings, but with inherent meaning intertwined with them. I perceived in my projection, that each of these represented the reality that Don Juan, Don Genaro, and Carlos Castaneda has created for themselves. These were not necessarily these specific people's realities proper, but a metaphor for possible warriors' realities.

These realities were perfectly fixed second attention realities, completely real to the awareness perceiving them. I also perceived that these realities, were ever changing, able to become whatever the dreamer desired them to be. They were universes, dreams, however you want to label them, completely at the will of the awareness creating them. This was a very profound realization for me, a very meaningful projection. It is one of many I've had to suggest such possibilities.

I think that this is one possible path that we can choose once our awareness leaves our physical bodies. This could be upon death, or possibly even for an advanced projector, in a type of projection. From my experience during this projection I feel I was shown a possible path of existence. One where the consciousness/awareness creates their own universe that they can shape as they please.

There are of course other paths we can choose. We can choose to be re-integrated into the one, for instance. Or many other possibilities that I have yet to learn of. Since the positions of the assemblage point seem to be nearly infinite, so can be the possible realities that we can perceive. Carlos Castaneda's books and the terminology I've used from his books are one perspective or interpretation of reality, metaphors, if you will. They attempt to describe that which can't be described, the incomprehensible and limitless potential of our awareness in shaping our existence.

[elendal]

Yup, I did refer to the "first" and "second" attention. I just didn't want to confuse people with strange terminology. It's hard enough to explain things with terminology everyone is used to. :)

As for perceiving another reality, I did on a couple of occasions willingly focus my attention on the fleeting images I had just before falling to sleep.

On one of those occasions, I found myself laying on the street. The street was paved with stone cubes, just like the ones that were being used in the past. It didn't look like an old street, though. It was very clean, and gave me a distinctively different feeling than I usually have. I can't put it into words... It just felt completely different, much more relaxing.

The street otherwise looked just like any other street - with buildings, and people going by. Not many people though. I didn't see or hear any cars. There were some rails in the middle of the street, so I guess there was some kind of transportation, but I didn't see any at that moment.

I got up, and put the jacket I held in my hand over my shoulder, and started walking along the street.

Then I lost focus, and "woke up". :)

For the duration of it, that experience was as much real as any I have in my waking state.

I don't know if it was really me on that street, or I perceived someone else's perception, or something else. I did act willingly for that short period of time, just like I act now, so my guess is as good as anyone's.

I stopped doing it after a couple more tries, as I didn't see any point in it. Living this life, or living some other... it doesn't make much difference.

I suppose that "the path of high adventure" is not for me. I prefer "the path of freedom". ;)

Again for those who are not familiar with the expressions, "the path of high adventure" refers to those who choose to perceive everything there is to perceive, to experience every world they can. For all practical purposes, that's almost infinetely many perceptions available to us as human beings.

Looking at it at this time, it pretty much resembles playing games and becoming addicted. It's easy to lose yourself to adventure. :)

"The path of freedom" refers to those who choose to look for whatever is there between perceptions and experiences. I can't tell you what it is since I have no idea, but my attempts at understanding this universe are aimed at that goal.

Until then, I'm here, and I intend to do what I'm here for. Whatever that is... :) I have some guesses, but I'll keep them for myself.

[Tom]

Okay. We agree that enlightenment is something that has to be experienced rather than just thought about or read about or talked about. The problem seems to be that a lot of people seem to think that means enlightenment is a specific sort of experience. If you can point to something or describe it - rather than saying what it is not - then it isn't really enlightenment. We are talking in a thread about being beyond enlightenment and now so much of what we are discussing is still a long way before enlightenment.

tom....http://mysticmysfits.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/girl_in_love.gif
i like that a lot. enlightenment = all experience. nice and simple.

yes...Beyond Enlightenment? and people think i'm cocky?!? ;)

[Tempestinateapot]

elendal said:
Such "enlightened" person is really split into two almost separate beings, each one performing at its best in its half of the world, only occasionally communicationg with the other half. I have to disagree with the "at it's best" part. This suggests that enlightenment is held up to a ruler and measured. Just how enlightened is "best"? What if it's just "good" or "better"? It's like the old Sears stores used to tag their appliances...good, better, best. Enlightenment either is or it isn't...no measurement scale.

Awareness is a whole other story to me. For me, it's about mystical experiences. Samadhi, Monroe's "Disk", experiences, Mental, Buddhic, Atmic, etc. planes, anything that takes us from the physical, mundane to the experiences that can't really be described using language. You have become "aware" that there's a lot more out there than yo momma taught ya. :D


Even being "enlightened", such a person hasn't yet achieved complete integration of his or her being. This integration is the goal of warriors, but it's far from being the end of journey. Again, this is a whole other story. IMO, what you are saying here isn't about enlightenment at all. This is about growth and evolvement. Which can be measured, but only by you. We are the captains of our ships, and only we can decide where we are and where we want to go next. You don't have to be enlightened to do this, just have a desire for growth.

So many terms, so many people saying so many different things. And, making judgements about it. I don't mean "judging" it. I mean, using examples as to what enlightenment is. As wstein said, enlightenment is as state of Being. It's not something you work for, intellectualy understand, or have ongoing experiences about. You don't have to be "good", be an avatar, or live unselfishly for others. It sneaks up on you, and suddenly you've crossed over into it. You can circle around it for years, intellectualize about it, mistake mystical experiences for it, but as someone basically said, if you can explain it, you ain't got it.

Muse, the "beyond enlightenment" part is about, what do you do then? Do you go live in the hills and live a simple existence or do you stay in the world of illusion and continue with the game? It becomes a choice, but a choice made with understanding you didn't have before. And, the last thing enlightenment is is "cocky". It's not even the last thing...cocky doesn't exist. Only people who haven't given up their measurement ruler yet think it's cocky.

[Tempestinateapot]

elendal said:
It seems information gets lost when one posts links to itNo, not lost. Links get deleted by mods until a new member has posted 20 times. We've adopted this rule because we have so much spam it's gotten out of control. This is a way for us to determine if someone wants to be a contributing member of AD or just wants to spam their own (or a friend's) website. After 20 posts, you can link all you want.

[lightworker]

painterhypnogirl, I think someone already asked about this but how about what's beyond beyond enlightenment? Is there anything else? Because if this is it, its like we're back in the beginning.

This total existence is so so so confusing. If I am God and all of you is me then God is a very confused individual. :D

"The path of freedom" refers to those who choose to look for whatever is there between perceptions and experiences. I can't tell you what it is since I have no idea, but my attempts at understanding this universe are aimed at that goal.

I can tell you what "it" is, but you will benefit only from knowing yourself through "seeing". I mean "seeing" by Don Juan's definition. What is between perceptions and experiences is pure awareness, and intent. "seeing" is a state of being, a state in which you are simply aware. Your goal could be broken down to the pursuit of "seeing" the Eagle and/or it's emanations. They are all that exist between perceptions and experiences that is within mans grasp.

Don Juan refers to this pursuit and his fear of being lost in the eagle's emanations forever.. which is a likely outcome of your goal. Whether this is true freedom or not, is a matter of perspective, or your definition of freedom. To me it is an eternity of loneliness, eternal, ever changing and yet forever the same.

Or perhaps you could choose to explore intent, this also seems to fit within your criteria.

For me, my path to freedom involves evolving my awareness and intent so that I have the freedom to perceive whatever reality I choose, and possibly to shape that reality as I wish with intent. I have chosen to pursue the third attention, to "burn from within" or become aware of every possibly reality within my reach, while remaining aware of my individual awareness. It could be said, that I have chosen to seek the ultimate awareness sought after by the new seers, but afterwards to perceive the infinite realities that I will become aware of, that the old Toltec seers chose to perceive in succession. It could be said I have chosen the "path of high adventure" but with my own twist. ;)

All these fit within the parameters of "Beyond Enlightenment". We can choose to live in the first attention having been enlightened, and that may be fulfilling for some, however my personal goals are not within the scope of the first attention.


As wstein said, enlightenment is as state of Being. It's not something you work for, intellectualy understand, or have ongoing experiences about.

Enlightenment is indeed a state of being, one you reach through experience(s). Once enlightened, however, if you choose to continue living in the first attention, or ordinary reality, then enlightenment is reduced to a knowing or understanding about our existence. We cannot bring with us the entirety of the state of being of being enlightened, while existing in ordinary reality, because we are no longer in a state of expanded consciousness.

While we may retain part of this understanding, or wisdom, and while we may KNOW at some level that we're enlightened in ordinary reality, IMO we cannot be in an enlightened state of being while experiencing normal reality. We can however experience our reality with a new appreciation and understanding.

[Tom]

While we may retain part of this understanding, or wisdom, and while we may KNOW at some level that we're enlightened in ordinary reality, IMO we cannot be in an enlightened state of being while experiencing normal reality. We can however experience our reality with a new appreciation and understanding.

Time for a Zen thing. After you reach the top of the mountain and get your view of all there is, there is only one thing to do. You go back down the mountain to the village in the valley. The view from on top of the mountain is no longer there, but the memory remains.

[elendal]

I have to disagree with the "at it's best" part. This suggests that enlightenment is held up to a ruler and measured. Just how enlightened is "best"? What if it's just "good" or "better"? It's like the old Sears stores used to tag their appliances...good, better, best. Enlightenment either is or it isn't...no measurement scale.
Words are interesting thing. They explain so much and they don't really explain anything. :)

You are, of course, correct that we can't measure the quality of anyone's performance. What I had in mind was "the best" from the perspective of the Source. If it commands us to perform in some way, experience for example, the we can experience the best we can. If it commands us to become free, then we can give our best to become free. My best is not the same as someone else's best. Best is simply the best one can give. It makes no sense to compare my best with someone else's in order to say it's better or worse. It's just different.

In the end, we are always limited by our own abilities, as are all other beings.

Here's another Zen example just perfect for this occasion - "What is the worth of a dead cat?" :lol:

[elendal]

No, not lost. Links get deleted by mods until a new member has posted 20 times. We've adopted this rule because we have so much spam it's gotten out of control. This is a way for us to determine if someone wants to be a contributing member of AD or just wants to spam their own (or a friend's) website. After 20 posts, you can link all you want.
You misunderstood me. I didn't refer to mods deleting the links. I don't mind being modded. :)

The whole book on that site is gone. It's not there anymore. Empty, nothing... lost. :)

[Tempestinateapot]

lightworker said:
painterhypnogirl, I think someone already asked about this but how about what's beyond beyond enlightenment? Is there anything else? Because if this is it, its like we're back in the beginning. I don't know. I went from fundamentalist Christian, to apathetic, to New Ager, in a span of about 40 years. I don't count the time between 1 and 10, because all I believed then was that there was a God. I don't count the last 2 years, because I don't even align myself with New Ager's anymore. If you read my signature, that's where I am now. Basically, I think everything is speculation. I've had all the eastern mystical experiences, the Charismatic Christian experiences, the New Age stuff. I'm mildly psychic in some areas and majorly psychic in others. I haven't "done it all", but I've done enough to know that there are no road signs that say "God is here" *arrow* The only thing I can know beyond a doubt is that "I" exist. I have thoughts about the way things are, but I'm open to surprises. Dogmatic belief days are over for me. Thank God. :D

The only thing I can know beyond a doubt is that "I" exist.
you ever think you'll get to a point where the *I* no longer exists?!? do you contemplate that at all?

[lightworker]

I've been thinking about this really hard and I think there is a difference when you've been up that mountain and saw the view. It will change you forever.

Before climbing the mountain you were so bored and angry because you didn't know what the view was. So you wanted to see it. After seeing the view on the mountain you go down. But this time you are not bored and angry but bored and at peace because you have with you that view on top of the mountain.
:shock:

Makes sense right?

But all the while that climb up the mountain was worth it even though one doesn't need to climb.
Next time you are bored, you just think about that time up the mountain. Hahaha

[Tempestinateapot]

Muse said:
you ever think you'll get to a point where the *I* no longer exists?!? do you contemplate that at all?Complicated question. :? I think the ego "I" that is experiencing this current lifetime will become merely a collection of experiences. I also think the soul "I" exists on untold numbers of levels. So, in both cases, I think that I will always exist in some form.

lightworker, I've just been reading a book that addresses a lot of questions about our eternal existence. It's totally blowing my mind. Some of it matches up with my personal experiences. Some of it explains things in the same way that I already had ideas about. Some of it is a bit new to me, but seems like something I've always known, if that makes any sense. Like, "Oh, yeh, I knew that once!" I'm going to start posting tomorrow and copy some of the info. It will be in the Expanding Consciousness forum.

[lightworker]

yeah painterhypnogirl! thanks that will help.

surely more views on this subject will help. I hope someday maybe, that mind can cope up with the mystery of spirit.

I've been thinking about this really hard and I think there is a difference when you've been up that mountain and saw the view. It will change you forever.

It certainly does, it can be a life changing experience that can totally alter your lifestyle, your ambitions, and perspective.

[Astral Exorcist]

I think Tempin is onto something.

She has chosen the void path. The void is infinite it's bigger then whatever has been already created within the void.. The creation filled the gap in the void is a small fraction of the void of a everylasting nothingless. It is not as big as the void itself. The void itself stretches far beyond the future of creation, filling the gaps of the void. I don't know what's the whole plan about destroying ego. Remember energy can't be destroyed and can only be transformed. Think about games that jet lag and their are empty gaps that are not filled.

If you want to be free megabytes for the universe then go for life.

[Tempestinateapot]

I'm not sure what you mean by the "void path". The only void I know of is the unknown, pure potential, or the uncreated. And, I'm not big into picking a certain "path" to follow. Paths can lead you to beliefs, which can cause you to box yourself in and see things only from that perspective. Widening your perspective leads to growth.

I should probably clarify "destroying the ego". To me, it's not that you want to annihilate yourself (the collection of experiences of this personality in this lifetime), but that you work really hard to see it for what it is. Which can be a painful, difficult, and depressing experience. Learn to recognize the difference between the temporary personality and the eternal soul. As you slowly break down personality traits to their smallest element, you can accept, or what some might call "forgive", those things that don't sit well with you. As you do this, you become more accepting of yourself, which has the effect of you becoming more accepting of others. When you learn not to judge (or to judge and then forgive yourself) the possibilites and opportunities you have after this lifetime increase substantially. When you learn there is nothing to judge, you gain freedom.

[Astral Exorcist]

Isn't it the belief that belief's are illusions?

Bliss is the greatest illusion the universe has to offer. I'll buy into it thankyou.

Anyway I like the idea of a modifyed version of heaven to bend to the needs of self.


I should probably clarify "destroying the ego". To me, it's not that you want to annihilate yourself (the collection of experiences of this personality in this lifetime), but that you work really hard to see it for what it is. Which can be a painful, difficult, and depressing experience. Learn to recognize the difference between the temporary personality and the eternal soul. As you slowly break down personality traits to their smallest element, you can accept, or what some might call "forgive", those things that don't sit well with you. As you do this, you become more accepting of yourself, which has the effect of you becoming more accepting of others. When you learn not to judge (or to judge and then forgive yourself) the possibilites and opportunities you have after this lifetime increase substantially. When you learn there is nothing to judge, you gain freedom.

I very much enjoyed reading that. I like the idea. Thankyou for your cooperation :D

BTW I need to have a clean running personality as much as possible.

[wstein]

Remember energy can't be destroyed and can only be transformed. Doesn't seem right to me. Of course its an illusion and nothing can actually happen to it.

From within the illusion, the rule about conservation of energy only applies within the frame of this material universe. For those with the power to create/destroy universes, destroying energy is not a problem. On a slightly smaller power budget, the elimination of a law of physics or two could also do the trick.

Its an illusion, no need to think small!!

BTW destruction of universes may have unintended consequences.

Energy is in constant balanced annihilation and destruction in my opinion.


I think the ego "I" that is experiencing this current lifetime will become merely a collection of experiences.

I definitely agree with tempest's statement above. I also thing that the "ONE" has a purpose for our collective experiences, through our collective experiences we develop and hone our awareness. The ONE is pure awareness in my opinion, so in granting us awareness, and allowing us to manipulate it and hone it with experiences, it is evolving.

[Akashic_Librarian]

I havn't been following this thread and your having a laugh if you think I am going to read 24 pages of thread topic....

but here is how I see it at the moment:

I have been thinking alot recently and, for the longest time I believed that the best thing to do in life is to be nice to everyone, to be happy all the time, but that just made me sick and tired and angry…I see now that my soul is not inclined that way. I am a creature of balance…Good and bad are just words, they have no resonance with me…I do what is right...based on logic and reason. Not wishes and disillusionment. I am very much changing now…my life is shaping in to what it is…I see now that kindness and happiness all the time is just as destructive as anger and resentment all the time…a balance must be found in the Microcosm before one can be sought in the macrocosm…The darkness and the light must be brought to bear…they must be dragged into the open and sorted out. There is no dishonour in doing a “Bad” thing to help the world, nor is their honour in doing a “Good” thing.
And in a very cool coincidence I read a brilliant passage from a book called Faith of The Fallen by Terry Goodkind. This is how it goes:

“Evil is not one large entity, but a collection of countless, small depravities brought up from the muck by petty men. Living under the Order, you have traded the enrichment of vision for a Gray fog of mediocrity, - the fertile inspiration of striving and growth, for the mindless stagnation and slow decay - the brave new ground of the attempt, for the timid quagmire of apathy…You have traded freedom not even for a bowl of soup, but worse, for the spoken empty feeling of others who say that you deserve to have a full bowl of soup provided by someone else. Happiness, joy accomplishment, achievement…are not finite commodities, to be divided up. Is a child’s laughter to be divided up and allotted? No! Simply make more laughter!”
“Every persons life is theirs by right. An individual’s life can be and must belong only to himself, not to any society or community, or he is then but a slave. No one can deny another person their right to their life, nor seize by force what is produced by someone else, because that is stealing their means to sustain their life. It is treason against mankind to hold a knife to a man’s throat and dictate how he must live his life.”

I think that passage holds alot of truth if you let it in. Don't listen to the fanatics who say the best thing you can do with your life is totally serve others without a care for yourself. That is mindlessly, stupidly Idiotic. Don't forget you exist as well as they do. In fact the only thing you are aware of is yourself. You have no proof that other people think like you do, or that they are even aware like you are. You are a Human being. Regardless of Soul or Energy Body or Chakras. Don't listen to the people who talk about attention grabbing rubbish like "I have a swirling, purple blue vortex of clockwise spinning energy in my lower energy field vector" that is just dissilusionment, where they try and find meaning in something that has none. We may have energy bodies, in fact i am quite sure we do, but it is nothing special, it is nothing amazing that means we have a connection to God, it is just another aspect of ourselves you must come to terms with.
Each Human has ability and power and Spirit and passion and righteous fury, however so many people refuse to let emotions show for fear of being told they are wrong, for fear of being told you cannot, or you won't, fear of being held back. Don't listen to that fear. Don't listen to others. Don't be afraid to be different. If you don't believe something stand up and say it. Don't just agree because everyone does. I see alot of that on this forum, so called Spiritualistic people who just nod their heads in faux sagacity at whatever mindless blabber new members (or Old) come out with. If you truly wish to be spiritual people then seek for the truth, do not stagnate in the illusions of comfort you haber. That is enlightenment. Not tarots, not crystals, not even becoming an Ascended twelfth level Elf Lord on the 7th plane of the almighty Saint Barakus. Enlightenment can only be achieved in life. Not in death, nor in sacrifice, Truth, God, ONENESS, is within you ONLY. Looking for it by sacrifice is like looking for a contact lens in the dark, no chance. Your Life is yours alone: Rise up and live it. Or get out of my way, because I want to cast my own shadow, not live under one.

[CFTraveler]

To catch you up on general terms: We established (or rather, Tempest did, without much argument) that reality isn't, so that you are free to express what drives you, since the 'I' as ego doesn't exist, and all that 'exists' does solely as a temporal illusion (too long to go into what illusion means), so that when one is enlightened, one doesn't have to be attached to the outcome of anything, because there isn't anything, so that 'good' and 'evil' are parts of that illusion, so that they really don't exist.
So if you do good it should be because you feel driven to it by your own self, not by some imposed reason, and 'goodness' and 'evil' are just a matter of perspective, which doesn't really exist.
So when you choose to be cranky, as well as when you choose to be joyful, please realize that it is you who is making that choice, no one else for you, not because the world is this or that- the world doesn't exist in terms of this conversation.

[Akashic_Librarian]

:shock: :shock:

Did you even read my post?

I was trying to point out the opaque and unavoidable ignorance some people suffer from. Enlightenment can be achieved and realised only when you go for Truth, not happiness. Truth. Truth brings happiness, searching for happiness brings pain. The Ego is not something to remove, or fight, it is something to be accepted. Something to be understood and controlled. If we all walked around ego-less we would all die pretty quickly. Ego is essential.
If you think enlightenment is non-attachment to things then maybe you should re-evaluate what you really know. Enlightenment is the embodyment of attachment. You have to be attached. Why else would you incarnate in a physical realm. To say you arn't physical?
Sounds pretty ridiculous to me...

So you would live your life in blissful "Enlightenment" and Non attachment simply because that is what you are told to do? Thats what you are told is the ultimate goal? Do you KNOW that for sure?
All you know, and I can guarentee this, is that YOU exist. And from that. From that knowledge you must search for the truth or you may as well not bother because once complaceny sets in, its hard to get out of it. You may say you are searching for Truth but as soon as you tell me that I am wrong, and that you are right. Well you've lost your way. Thats not Truth, Truth is knowing, knowing is Enlightenment. Enlightenment by its very name, does not mean getting out of touch with things, it doesn't mean not attaching to things. It means getting stuck into to life, making a difference and shining like a candle in the darkness. Not just pretending you know what your talking about. Thats just sad.

[CFTraveler]

:shock: :shock:

Did you even read my post?

I was trying to point out the opaque and unavoidable ignorance some people suffer from. Enlightenment can be achieved and realised only when you go for Truth, not happiness. Truth. Truth brings happiness, searching for happiness brings pain. The Ego is not something to remove, or fight, it is something to be accepted. Something to be understood and controlled. If we all walked around ego-less we would all die pretty quickly. Ego is essential.
If you think enlightenment is non-attachment to things then maybe you should re-evaluate what you really know. Enlightenment is the embodyment of attachment. You have to be attached. Why else would you incarnate in a physical realm. To say you arn't physical?
Sounds pretty ridiculous to me...

So you would live your life in blissful "Enlightenment" and Non attachment simply because that is what you are told to do? Thats what you are told is the ultimate goal? Do you KNOW that for sure?
All you know, and I can guarentee this, is that YOU exist. And from that. From that knowledge you must search for the truth or you may as well not bother because once complaceny sets in, its hard to get out of it. You may say you are searching for Truth but as soon as you tell me that I am wrong, and that you are right. Well you've lost your way. Thats not Truth, Truth is knowing, knowing is Enlightenment. Enlightenment by its very name, does not mean getting out of touch with things, it doesn't mean not attaching to things. It means getting stuck into to life, making a difference and shining like a candle in the darkness. Not just pretending you know what your talking about. Thats just sad.
I'm not sure where you're coming from with this mildly hostile note, I just told you where the conversation is. If you read my post you'll see that I said that she decided that reaction should be out of choice, not external influence. I'm not sure who you're talking to here, and where this 'right' and 'wrong' business is coming from. In fact, I'm not sure what you're reacting to, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I wrote.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Are you purposefully avoiding what I say?

[CFTraveler]

Which is? (Without the attacks and/or insults, please)

[Akashic_Librarian]

:shock:

Read my posts and you will see, I am not repeating myself. And I am not attacking people. Or insulting them. I just being a bit impassioned because i am a little sick of treading on egg shells around touchy topics.

[Tom]

Given the name of the thread, I find it surprising how little of it has to do with enlightenment at all. To borrow from Jed McKenna, it is like a bunch of caterpillars talking about what life is like for butterflies. He also said that if someone is trying to tell you about bliss (happiness is a good enough word for it) to avoid that person, because it is just a sales pitch. Finally, to describe what he said one more time, he said - not putting this in quotes because I don't remember exact wording - sit down, shut up, and ask yourself what is true. He said that people hate spiritual teachings which can fit on a matchbook. Anyway, I'm looking forward to his third book which is due out some time this year.

The user Akashic Librarian and what he wrote is brilliant, although somewhat flawed and imperfect, it far outweighs anything I've seen in a very long time.

The implication that everything is illusion is a fool argument. If it were so then you would not exist and neither would I or anyone else. Illusion is real because thougts are real. Realness is based on a reality founded in truth. Truth is reality as god is infinite. The only way illusion can have any realness to it whatsoever is through a reality based on truth. Illusion is a way to avoid truth, as it 'travels oroubourus', reflecting around itself, but never into itself. Illusion produces Ignorance. Mastery of ignorance produces bliss. This is what you seek, yet you call it enlightnment. If I have any advice to give and If I am seen as having merit and intelligence in this matter, then I would suggest that Akashic Librarian not provide any more information on himself or the true nature of reality, as it would be compared to trying to explain algebra to someone who can't add or subtract.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Thanks Mitra, glad someone understand me here. :D :D :D

[CFTraveler]

I did already but if you insist, I'll go through it point by point:

I havn't been following this thread and your having a laugh if you think I am going to read 24 pages of thread topic....
Hence my quick summary.



I have been thinking alot recently and, for the longest time I believed that the best thing to do in life is to be nice to everyone, to be happy all the time, but that just made me sick and tired and angry…I see now that my soul is not inclined that way. I am a creature of balance…Good and bad are just words, they have no resonance with me…I do what is right...based on logic and reason. Not wishes and disillusionment. I am very much changing now…my life is shaping in to what it is…I see now that kindness and happiness all the time is just as destructive as anger and resentment all the time…a balance must be found in the Microcosm before one can be sought in the macrocosm…The darkness and the light must be brought to bear…they must be dragged into the open and sorted out. There is no dishonour in doing a “Bad” thing to help the world, nor is their honour in doing a “Good” thing. I agree, and added that Tempest in her process had also realized that 'good' or 'bad' are sides of a coin and wasn't interested in 'being nice to everyone' as you put it so aptly. I didn't realize I had to argue with something that was already agreed. (Which I also thought my summary explained)


And in a very cool coincidence I read a brilliant passage from a book called Faith of The Fallen by Terry Goodkind. This is how it goes:

“Evil is not one large entity, but a collection of countless, small depravities brought up from the muck by petty men. Living under the Order, you have traded the enrichment of vision for a Gray fog of mediocrity, - the fertile inspiration of striving and growth, for the mindless stagnation and slow decay - the brave new ground of the attempt, for the timid quagmire of apathy…You have traded freedom not even for a bowl of soup, but worse, for the spoken empty feeling of others who say that you deserve to have a full bowl of soup provided by someone else. Happiness, joy accomplishment, achievement…are not finite commodities, to be divided up. Is a child’s laughter to be divided up and allotted? No! Simply make more laughter!”
“Every persons life is theirs by right. An individual’s life can be and must belong only to himself, not to any society or community, or he is then but a slave. No one can deny another person their right to their life, nor seize by force what is produced by someone else, because that is stealing their means to sustain their life. It is treason against mankind to hold a knife to a man’s throat and dictate how he must live his life.”
Once again, we agreed on this. You shouldn't do anything because you should, you should do what you choose from the inside. I thought my summary was clear on that.


I think that passage holds alot of truth if you let it in. Don't listen to the fanatics who say the best thing you can do with your life is totally serve others without a care for yourself. That is mindlessly, stupidly Idiotic. Don't forget you exist as well as they do. In fact the only thing you are aware of is yourself. You have no proof that other people think like you do, or that they are even aware like you are. You are a Human being. Regardless of Soul or Energy Body or Chakras. Don't listen to the people who talk about attention grabbing rubbish like "I have a swirling, purple blue vortex of clockwise spinning energy in my lower energy field vector" that is just dissilusionment, where they try and find meaning in something that has none. We may have energy bodies, in fact i am quite sure we do, but it is nothing special, it is nothing amazing that means we have a connection to God, it is just another aspect of ourselves you must come to terms with. Once again, not once in this post did anyone speak of serving anyone else, unless it's their own choice.


Each Human has ability and power and Spirit and passion and righteous fury, however so many people refuse to let emotions show for fear of being told they are wrong, for fear of being told you cannot, or you won't, fear of being held back. Don't listen to that fear. Don't listen to others. Don't be afraid to be different. If you don't believe something stand up and say it. Don't just agree because everyone does. I see alot of that on this forum, so called Spiritualistic people who just nod their heads in faux sagacity at whatever mindless blabber new members (or Old) come out with. If you truly wish to be spiritual people then seek for the truth, do not stagnate in the illusions of comfort you haber. That is enlightenment. Not tarots, not crystals, not even becoming an Ascended twelfth level Elf Lord on the 7th plane of the almighty Saint Barakus. Enlightenment can only be achieved in life. Not in death, nor in sacrifice, Truth, God, ONENESS, is within you ONLY. Looking for it by sacrifice is like looking for a contact lens in the dark, no chance. Your Life is yours alone: Rise up and live it. Or get out of my way, because I want to cast my own shadow, not live under one. I'm not sure where this came from. Did anyone tell anyone else that they had to worship the Elf lord, or say 3 hail Marys? Maybe some people are in that path, but it's their path. Once again, I'm not sure if you meant people in this forum. :? Maybe the love-and lighty ones?
What was brough forth is that enlightenment (for want of a better term) means 'shedding light', and each one has their own truth. Her truth, as it stands now, is that she doesn't have to believe anything, or believe in anything, and that everything she decides is her choice.
I'm not sure what the objection was in your post, and why you got so personal with me for attempting to catch you up with her thought process, at the moment.

[CFTraveler]

Given the name of the thread, I find it surprising how little of it has to do with enlightenment at all. To borrow from Jed McKenna, it is like a bunch of caterpillars talking about what life is like for butterflies. He also said that if someone is trying to tell you about bliss (happiness is a good enough word for it) to avoid that person, because it is just a sales pitch. Finally, to describe what he said one more time, he said - not putting this in quotes because I don't remember exact wording - sit down, shut up, and ask yourself what is true. He said that people hate spiritual teachings which can fit on a matchbook. Anyway, I'm looking forward to his third book which is due out some time this year. I just read his "I understand Philip Dick" which was hilarious. Now I have to read everything he wrote. (Oops, I said 'have' to) :shock:

[Akashic_Librarian]

Sorry CFT but, I know this sounds insulting but it really, really isn't. I have to agree with Mitra when he/she said "If I have any advice to give and If I am seen as having merit and intelligence in this matter, then I would suggest that Akashic Librarian not provide any more information on himself or the true nature of reality, as it would be compared to trying to explain algebra to someone who can't add or subtract."

[CFTraveler]

The user Akashic Librarian and what he wrote is brilliant, although somewhat flawed and imperfect, it far outweighs anything I've seen in a very long time.

The implication that everything is illusion is a fool argument. If it were so then you would not exist and neither would I or anyone else. Illusion is real because thougts are real. Realness is based on a reality founded in truth. Truth is reality as god is infinite. The only way illusion can have any realness to it whatsoever is through a reality based on truth. Illusion is a way to avoid truth, as it 'travels oroubourus', reflecting around itself, but never into itself. Illusion produces Ignorance. Mastery of ignorance produces bliss. This is what you seek, yet you call it enlightnment. If I have any advice to give and If I am seen as having merit and intelligence in this matter, then I would suggest that Akashic Librarian not provide any more information on himself or the true nature of reality, as it would be compared to trying to explain algebra to someone who can't add or subtract. Which I agree, which is why I said that what was meant or termed 'illusion' is another argument. And if you read the thread you will see that this is also explored.
Why you need to be insulting as in
I would suggest that Akashic Librarian not provide any more information on himself or the true nature of reality, as it would be compared to trying to explain algebra to someone who can't add or subtract to someone on your very first post, I'm baffled.

[CFTraveler]

Sorry CFT but, I know this sounds insulting but it really, really isn't. I have to agree with Mitra when he/she said "If I have any advice to give and If I am seen as having merit and intelligence in this matter, then I would suggest that Akashic Librarian not provide any more information on himself or the true nature of reality, as it would be compared to trying to explain algebra to someone who can't add or subtract." It sounds insulting because it is insulting. Especially when obviously neither of you bothered to read the entire post before shooting with all your guns.

[Tom]

Maybe I'd let it get to me, too, if I was told that I'm the only one around here who can add and subtract, but I'd like to think it would seem more disturbing and creepy to me. Definitely nothing to agree with.

[Marcus]

I think it is OK to add an opinion or thoughts to a post without reading it in its entirety first, but the fool's game I see here is to start getting upset with what people say before going back & finding out what has been said in the thread. AL seems extremely anxious to be right, even though, if you've followed through the thread, he is simply saying, in alternate words, a lot of what has already been discussed.

Not sure why Mitra feels the need to jump in & lash out on his behalf - seems a bit weird. Particularly with the statements...
The implication that everything is illusion is a fool argument. If it were so then you would not exist and neither would I or anyone else. Illusion is real because thoughts are real. Realness is based on a reality founded in truth. Truth is reality as god is infinite. The only way illusion can have any realness to it whatsoever is through a reality based on truth which seem to be meaningful but actually say nothing. They don't follow from one another, beginning with the first 2 sentences.
The illusion idea is not a fool argument at all; it is a valid way to see things as soon as you accept that reality is possibly based on what we experience rather than having any objective existence. The mystics & sages, the religions of the world, quantum & string theory all agree that the Universe isn't really there. There is disagreement as to the 'why' of reality, but they all agree that it isn't REAL.
And leaping from that statement about fools to the idea that if things are illusory then consciousness can't exist is non sequiter. First you'd have to demonstrate that 'things' & consciousness are the same & yet mystics & sages, the religions of the world, quantum & string theory all agree that they aren't. Again, there is disagreement (& on the science side, bafflement) as to just what consciousness IS, but they all agree it is something different from the normal matter & energy extant in the cosmos.

I've read over CFTraveler's initial comment 3 times & it doesn't seem to require the belligerent 'Have you even read my post?' response - it is plainly a synopsis of what has been discussed that AL & Mitra couldn't be bothered reading.
If you think enlightenment is non-attachment to things then maybe you should re-evaluate what you really knowTo paraphrase, If you think this thread says enlightenment is non-attachment to things then maybe you should actually read the thread & find out what has been said?
So you would live your life in blissful "Enlightenment" and Non attachment simply because that is what you are told to do? Thats what you are told is the ultimate goal? Do you KNOW that for sure?Again, this is not what is being said in this thread so before opening mouth & inserting both feet, it would be advisable to overcome laziness & go find out what the thread has been about. You might find it enlightening! :grin:

[anonymous159]

The implication that everything is illusion is a fool argument. If it were so then you would not exist and neither would I or anyone else. Illusion is real because thoughts are real. Realness is based on a reality founded in truth. Truth is reality as god is infinite. The only way illusion can have any realness to it whatsoever is through a reality based on truth. Illusion is a way to avoid truth, as it 'travels oroubourus', reflecting around itself, but never into itself. Illusion produces Ignorance. Mastery of ignorance produces bliss. This is what you seek, yet you call it enlightnment. If I have any advice to give and If I am seen as having merit and intelligence in this matter, then I would suggest that Akashic Librarian not provide any more information on himself or the true nature of reality, as it would be compared to trying to explain algebra to someone who can't add or subtract.

Here's a solution. Ask negs to help remove your ego. Get rid of the naval chakra of authority. To do that you would need blockages. That way you will be egoless and live a healthy life in your world. To me ego on some levels is a healthy thing. Egoless means, Walked all over but hey! it doesn't matter we can block out those negative walked all over feelings and apply nothingness in it's place since it's all a dam illusion and we will have to struggle for the rest of our lives in this lifetime because of it. It's how the ego is used in a positive way or a negative way. People with aroused ego's should respect peoples potential performance contribution in our lifetime. Some don't have no spiritual foundation so they abuse the power of the ego. If their was no such thing as ego their would be no bosses to run the world. It would be one big mess. I got into gnosticweb a while back. It encouraged to get rid of your ego under a guy called Belzebuub. The name is a bloody demon. Lets give our power away people. Clap clap. Very smart. Im not going to give you to much to mulch admin but I think your doing something against your biological design. Your genes are designed to survive just like everyone else’s in the world. No ego means No survival. No fear means hit by a train by being fearless. The nature of energy always wants to flourish with life. Energy likes to be like that. It wants to stay that way. It want's to stay alive. Good hint would be the discovery channel. The human body is a natural mind control machine. That's why we get pain signals once we get hurt to protect our human body and continue playing the real game of life not ending it by death.

I know where your coming from Marcus. People's superiority shows true again and again. They get use to this all the time. The ignorance grows because they had so many hits of rightchiousness. That's the problem. They get older start to lose brain cells and aren’t operating at their peak performance and their ego is still around at high levels.

The other ego problem. Thinking that drugs are right. Ignorance. Taking the Drugs means Bliss

The ego can only flourish with accuracy if the human body health is looked after. Put the drugs in a ♥♥♥♥ty end up.

It's really your choice, if you want to abuse the power of the ego go for it. Or you can let harmful chemicals run your ego. If you want to be bossed around by everyone without a ego go for life.

Here is the correct defination.. lol

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=wh ... arch&meta= (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=what+is+ego%3F&btnG=Google+Search&meta=)

[Tempestinateapot]

This thread is like the Eveready Bunny, it just keeps going...and going...and going... I don't blame AL for not wanting to read the whole thing. I wouldn't. :lol: But, coming in with what appears to be, shall we say "intense" words without having full knowledge of what has been said isn't quite playing the game fairly.

"Attachment" to things, in my opinion (which is prone to change) :D is the need to judge things. For example...

"This is my car." Is it "your's" or is it part of the illusion?

"Your post sucks." Which gets in to "right" and "wrong", which likely, ultimately don't exist. By the way, I wasn't referring to anyone's post, it just popped into my head.

"This is my child." Is it "your's" or is your child their own ego having their own chosen experience?

Each of these statements are an attachment to your personal beliefs...either that you own something, or that there is utimately a right and a wrong. Letting go of your attachments and your ego is a process that isn't for everyone. But, I do think that it's a necessary stage before leaving the karma based existence. Not that you will turn away from the world, but that you will see it for what it is. You don't have to become "perfect" to do this.

The word "illusion" is interpreted differently by different people. What I mean by illusion is that everything is ultimately just consciousness. The world we are in is "real" in the sense that we experience it as being real. We have chosen this experience of physicality for the purpose of experience. In doing this, we agreed to accept the realness of it, when in truth, it is no more substantial than the astral. Come to think of it, the astral is probably more substantial in that it doesn't pretend to exist as physical. Closer to pure consciousness. I find it strange that people can get so upset over that word. Some seem to take it that I mean I am real, and you aren't. :? We are all "real", existing as facets of One Consciousness.

Akashic, while I agree with a lot of your first post in this thread, I wonder if you recognize the judgements you are making about other people's experiences.
If you truly wish to be spiritual people then seek for the truth, do not stagnate in the illusions of comfort you haber. That is enlightenment. Not tarots, not crystals, not even becoming an Ascended twelfth level Elf Lord on the 7th plane of the almighty Saint Barakus. Enlightenment is accepting that other's experiences in our mutual illusion are ok, and then letting go of the need to judge them...because, ultimately, there is nothing to judge or attach to. "We" don't exist. Only Oneness exists....the "I am the only thing I know with certainty that exists". Which, by the way, I've said in this thread, and stole from Jed McKenna when I realized the simple truth of it. :D

[Donald McGlinn]

I felt inspired to jump in and post :)

Please keep in mind I have less than skimmed a brief overview of the last few pages and none of the preceding 20+ pages.

In my opinion;

There is only one truth - the truth of I (but given how many "I's" there are in the world there are a couple of different versions)

Reaching that absolute truth of I is letting go of the need for approval and or acceptance not only outside of yourself, but inside as well. (The key word here is NEED.)

Letting go of that NEED can be challenging because we have the misguided belief we lose. NEED is what drives ego, so there is the underlying feeling that letting go of NEED will result in losing SELF.

In truth letting go of NEED actually frees SELF.

[Astral Exorcist]

Tempin i've become confused about something. If we were everything would that be all the rapists etc.? Since we are all interconnected.. :?

[Donald McGlinn]

Tempin i've become confused about something. If we were everything would that be all the rapists etc.? Since we are all interconnected.. :?

Your question answers itself.

However, I will answer on her (I hope you don't mind T) behalf. The short answer is YES.

[Astral Exorcist]

ummm would that cage spiritual development? I don't know. Is it not healthy being too pure? If that was the case that would make a imbalance in light and dark in the universe? From the ying and yang theory.
:shock:

[Tempestinateapot]

I agree with Donald, the short answer is "yes". Why the answer is yes is extremely complicated and has to do with Oneness experiencing Itself in every possible way...making the unknown...known.

[Astral Exorcist]

well if we were connected to rapist that would mean that we are all suffering from them?

So it's good to disconnect from the illusion and aim for unknown lands?

Ok maybe the topic is far to advanced for me.

[Tempestinateapot]

"Light - Dark", "Yin - Yang", etc. imply opposites. Which is a judgement that everything is either good or bad. They exist as part of the illusion. Every experience is what it is...an experience...a creation of an Ultimate Mind. Personally, I don't think opposites exist in all universes. The closer One gets to Oneness, the more opposites merge.

Having said that, light and dark do exist for purposes here on earth. We have chosen this experience, and for good or bad...we are stuck with it. :D

[Donald McGlinn]

ummm would that cage spiritual development? I don't know. Is it healthy being too pure? If that was the case that would make a imbalance in light and dark in the universe? From the ying and yang theory.
:shock:

Those are all good questions that I believe you should find the answers to for yourself. For YOU. For the I that resides with and within you.

Once you do, you will discover your question was a trigger for your growth.

[Astral Exorcist]

Hey that makes me wonder, We might of been put here to re learn, re enjoy the splenders of life. That stops it from being boring after all. Renewable fulfilling experience for eternity.

Anyway that's off topic big time. It's my way of saying thanks for splendid input.

[Donald McGlinn]

wow, interesting thought.

Hey, I know, lets call it REINCARNATION <grin>

[Donald McGlinn]

Hey that makes me wonder, We might of been put here to re learn, re enjoy the spenders of life. That stops it from being boring after all. Renewable fulfilling experience for eternity.

Anyway that's off topic big time. It's my way of saying thanks for splendid input.

On a serious note, we all leave to source to remember how to return to the source. I believe this cycle is infinite.

[Astral Exorcist]

awesome 8)

[Astral Exorcist]

Those are all good questions that I believe you should find the answers to for yourself. For YOU. For the I that resides with and within you.

Once you do, you will discover your question was a trigger for your growth.

Will do. Thankyou.

By the way your voice is strong. Good job for working on yourself so well.

[wstein]

[quote="Astral Practitioner":3123aoo5]Hey that makes me wonder, We might of been put here to re learn, re enjoy the spenders of life. That stops it from being boring after all. Renewable fulfilling experience for eternity.

Anyway that's off topic big time. It's my way of saying thanks for splendid input. On a serious note, we all leave to source to remember how to return to the source. I believe this cycle is infinite.[/quote:3123aoo5] Then it IS as bad as I think :( This may sound all warm and fuzzy or wild and energetic to others. In a sense, I remember quite a few of those trips. After the first few thousand times, relearning again does not seem like such a good idea. Infinity is a really long time... .. . . . . . . . . . let me off :cry:

[star]

I have a friend who created two myspace accounts so he could send himself comments on how awesome he is. :)

The interconnected thing is written in a book called Zero Limits. I have a copy on pre-order. Although rightn ow i have so much material to go through, and even just to acquire, that I'm feeling overwhelmed.

Not that the ideas are so advanced, its just getting through everything and coming up with my own ideas for now.

[journyman161]

I have a friend who created two myspace accounts so he could send himself comments on how awesome he isIt is a problem on forums - on one hand you want to stay as open as possible to allow as wide a member-base as possible but on the other you want to avoid those who create multiple accounts to make their opinions look good. On the gripping hand, those who double-sign onto forums are usually too stupid to be able to hide who they are.

Harder to detect are those who cultivate young impressionable minds to do their opinionating for them & then create accounts to heap praise on the innocent poster.

Unfortunately for them, on a site like this there are many people who actually have instincts & trust them. Loose translation... it has been noted already, but thanks for the heads up.

Temp likes to think of the physical reality as illusion. And her definition of this perspective is acceptable to me, when I evaluate it with my experiences. I just want to add to it that I believe that the illusion itself, is created by every living persons awareness, and consciousness.

It is a consensus reality. In this respect, it is no different in the astral other than the fact that physical reality is not so easily manipulated by a single persons energy because there are so many people holding on to their consensus version of this reality that they hold it in place quite strongly.

We are aware, and conscious, we are alive. What we create is only as real as we are, or as real as we choose for it to be. The physical universe we are all part of is of our own creation. Part of my own path I've chosen is to reveal this consensus reality for what it is, energy that's being held in place by the mass consciousness. I have seen this physical reality, from that perspective.

I have seen physical objects, reduced to their resonant energy. And I have observed particular patterns that arise from this creation from energy -> matter that seems inherent in the creation of this physical reality, this pattern is consistent with the perspective of sacred geometry.. in other words, consciousness favors embedding the truth, the infinite nature of existence, even into every small temporary physical manifestation.

This could be a conscious act, a hint left behind, or simply a byproduct of the process, an energy signature left by consciousness itself. What I do know is that the inherent infinite nature of that signature can be perceived in all things, a conclusion I've drawn from my experiences. I don't pretend to know why but I do recognize that it's there. I also perceive that an imprint can be left from an incarnate physical conscious entity, interacting with a physical object, in other words, our interaction with our creation alters it on a very fundamental level.

Akashik_Librarian seems to have his own ideas and understanding that work for him, that I hope he continues to share, but also seems to suffer from judging others and from reacting emotionally and negatively towards others when it seems unnecessary from my perspective. I hope we can all continue this conversation without that negative, assuming, authoritative tone. This thread will be much more productive from a contributory tone. I do hope to see people's ideas evaluated by others, but there's no need for hostility when doing so imo.

[Tom]

The thing about calling everything an illusion is meant to be a way to counter the tendency to think of everything as being solid, real, permanent, and unchanging. From the beginning it was meant to be used and then dropped when no longer needed. Some people have the opposite problem; they think nothing is real, so telling them that everything is an illusion just makes things worse. Instead it is better to tell then that everything they experience, whether they are awake or asleep or meditating, is equally real. To them, the medicine is to say that perception is reality. Eventually they can let it drop. This is what Middle Way means in Buddhism - it is between believing everything exists and believing nothing exists. Between the two extremes, believing that nothing exists is the bigger mistake because then there is nothing to work with to correct the mistake.

[Tempestinateapot]

MalevolenT said:
I have seen physical objects, reduced to their resonant energy.I've seen this, also. I've also seen objects warping, changing, and "stationary objects" move, even dance. If this had happened to me 10 years ago, I would have seriously considered checking myself in to a psych ward. Now, because of what I've learned, it's exciting and fun every time it happens. Those experiences are what have convinced me that we are, in fact, seeing a created illusion. I had read for years about the idea that physicality is an illusion, but it remained one of those "I'll think about it, but not quite agree" things until I started actually seeing inanimate objects animate.

I agree that we are collectively creating what we see. Obviously, we are unaware of it on the physical level, in that we don't think, "I see a chair" and a chair appears. And, physical manifestations are much, much slower here. In the astral, if you want a car, bingo...there it is. On earth, if you want a car, it takes a lot longer and has to navigate the needs and desires of other people. Someone else may want the exact same car. So, who manifests and gets it? Obviously, both people can't have it. So, sometimes we have to settle for something close, and sometimes not at all. There are a lot of outside (or unaware to us) factors that determine what we will manifest and what we won't. Some things that we may think we want are not available to us because our choices we made for this incarnation, before we incarnated, are the over-riding factor. Illusion and manifesting in the illusion can be very tricky. :D

[APK]

I just read his "I understand Philip Dick" which was hilarious. Now I have to read everything he wrote. (Oops, I said 'have' to) :shock:

Philip K. Dick the science-fiction writer? I have some of his books.

[CFTraveler]

Yes. I read a little (not much) by him, and liked his comics. Let me see if I find this link...

Here it is. Enjoy: http://www.sirbacon.org/dick.htm

[Tom]

Terence Mckenna is not the same as Jed McKenna, but Jed did quote that guy in his second book. That Phillip guy I mean.

[CFTraveler]

I was talking about Terence. I'm not sure who was talking about Jed. I'm so confused!

[Tom]

I was talking about Terence. I'm not sure who was talking about Jed. I'm so confused!

You are talking about Terence Mckenna. APK has mentioned Philip K. Dick. The rest of us have been talking about Jed McKenna.

http://wisefoolpress.com/articles.htm

[CFTraveler]

Yes. :shock:

And, physical manifestations are much, much slower here. In the astral, if you want a car, bingo...there it is. On earth, if you want a car, it takes a lot longer and has to navigate the needs and desires of other people.

Indeed, Temp. It may have to do with the "frequency" of the physical plane. The cycle of slow creation, and slow decay is directly related to our own cycle of a lifetime, or incarnation, and also related to other people's conscious involvement in that manifestation, and their memories of it's existence. You are correct in pointing out this difference between the physical and astral that I didn't think about at the time of my post. Always good to have people point out oversights ;).

One thing I have begun to experience, is the ability to shape even my physical reality with intent, or will. The more aware I become of the true nature of this reality, the stronger my energy becomes, and the more I hone my intent, I have started to shape this reality in more powerful and tactile ways.

Take for example, even developing clairvoyant abilities, can enable one to manipulate physical reality a great deal, such as from knowing about future events, or being aware of someone or something most people aren't. Heightened awareness brings greater control and also greater ability to create. There are many other aspects to using intent and awareness to manipulate not only this reality but other people's perception of it that I've been experimenting with, which I will most likely share in time. :)


I've seen this, also. I've also seen objects warping, changing, and "stationary objects" move, even dance.

I've seen all this as well, especially the "dancing". I perceive trees "dancing" to music, my own oak speakers resonate to the sound they're producing, the wood grain dancing and morphing. I also perceive the patterns that sound energy causes on the surface of objects as they resonate together. This video is similar to what I see all the time in just about all matter, even if I don't hear any sound to produce the effects, which may indicate a natural resonance coming to the surface:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPcJbb5Q ... ed&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPcJbb5Qfj0&mode=related&search=)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Chladni

I perceive these patterns as part of the matter itself, it's as though I'm viewing the flow of energy creating the matter, underneath a clear sheath that is present at the barrier of what I'm observing. Take for example, a sidewalk. I have perceived similar patterns flowing through the sidewalk as I walk over it, as though it were transparent. I've always found it fun ;).

[Tempestinateapot]

That video is amazing! Is that a speaker underneath that's making the sounds? Is it possible that could have been faked? Is this part of what is called sacred geometry? A subject I know absolutely nothing about, btw. :D

[journyman161]

Not sure where the speaker is - underneath would be the optimum place, but the resonance effect is fairly well known. You might recall seeing a device in school with two points the tap onto water & produce patterns in the ripples? That's resonance - the ripple waves from the two point sources cross & reinforce or cancel each other out, producing the patterns.

In this one, the waves produce 'standing wave' nodes at certain points & the particles 'fall' into the places where the potential energy is least. Altering one or both the sources changes the places where the waves cross & the particles move with the nodes.

There are several points in Earth orbit that correspond to this - Lagrange points, where the gravity wells meet & cancel each other to produce a place where there is little or less gravitational effect than anywhere else in orbit - satellites placed there tend to remain in place rather than decay in orbit.

But it is fascinating to watch it happen & realise that such patterns could easily be the underlying reality when you consider the 'hum' of the universe that you can hear in the silence. Matter all vibrates, so there is potential for these sort of patterns to form & make up our universe. But even lower in the scale, strings vibrate, & maybe the wave patterns they produce actually cause the clumps that we know as matter.

Just a thought...

I clicked on the Acoustic Levitation video & it is equally fascinating...
Check this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94KzmB2bI7s&mode=related&search=) out

[Tempestinateapot]

You might recall seeing a device in school with two points the tap onto water & produce patterns in the ripples?You mean back in the 60's and 70's? I can barely remember something I learned last week. :lol:

[journyman161]

OK... then look at these...

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/light/u12l1b1.gif
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/light/u12l1b2.gif
See where the ripples cross? Look at it for a moment & you'll notice they turn into radial lines. Where two peaks meet you get a hump & where two troughs meet you get a dip - they make patterns & the patterns depend on the two points tapping - how fast each taps will alter the pattern of those lines.
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/light/u12l1b4.gif

[Tempestinateapot]

Cool video, Jman. Very sci-fi-ish. The sounds remind me of the old black and white sci-fi tv shows and movies. Now, if they could just create cars that run on sound waves. 8)

[Gemma]

Cool video, Jman. Very sci-fi-ish. The sounds remind me of the old black and white sci-fi tv shows and movies. Now, if they could just create cars that run on sound waves. 8)

It'll probably get taxed like everything else is. :p

[APK]

You are talking about Terence Mckenna. APK has mentioned Philip K. Dick. The rest of us have been talking about Jed McKenna.

It looks like there was a misunderstanding.

Philip K. Dick is a highly respected science fiction writer, although I haven't read any of his science fiction novels - I've got some of his later books, which weren't so heavily focused on science fiction. I recommend VALIS.

[CFTraveler]

Yes. :D

I have my own sort of theory about resonance and how it relates to this reality. I mentioned a few pages back and in one of Jmans posts in Astral Awareness, about the description of the ether, consisting of "the eagles emanations", which are described as filaments of awareness. The underlying structure of what I will call the Infiniverse, is the "ONE" or the ether, and that it has a structure, which is composed of these filaments of awareness.

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewto ... 2&start=30 (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=3622&start=30)

I have considered the possibility that each filament has a specific frequency, a frequency that is constantly evolving as life forms perceive it. The golden ratio may be an approximation of the mean frequency of the set of filaments that one would fix their assemblage point upon to perceive this physical reality.

To say it another way, we attune ourselves to a specific frequency, and experience a resultant reality. Human beings' natural frequency to attune to in their physical incarnation is the frequency correspondent to the golden ratio.. Da Vinci found the golden ratio to be present in many aspects of the human form.

Info on the golden ratio:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

Which is intimately related to the fibonnaci series:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_series

The ratio is an irrational number, it goes on into infinity, getting closer and closer to an exact value. Living organisms all display a relation to this golden ratio in how they develop, from the DNA double helix to the observable structures of many plants and animals. They tend to show a resemblance to the golden spiral:

http://www.halexandria.org/images/scan0052.gif

More on the golden spiral:

http://www.halexandria.org/dward103.htm

This is where I make the connection between resonance, the golden spiral, and sacred geometry. They are all intimately related. We are all focusing on living filaments of awareness, emanations of the one, and in doing so, causing it and ourselves, to evolve.

I have developed a meditation technique which utilizes the perception of interference patterns, or standing wave resonance patterns, utilizing a dim light source or sound, that serves as a sort of map for projection. I will start a new thread when I've explored it thoroughly enough to elaborate accurately how my ideas pertain to mapping positions in the astral and astral projection.

Now, if they could just create cars that run on sound waves.

Nanogenerator provides continuous power by harvesting energy from the environment (http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=823)
Researchers have demonstrated a prototype nanometer-scale generator that produces continuous direct-current electricity by harvesting mechanical energy from such environmental sources as ultrasonic waves, mechanical vibration or blood flow.
http://www.redicecreations.com/ul_img/822nanogenerator_small.jpg

[Tempestinateapot]

or blood flowWould I have to stick an I.V. in my arm every time I wanted to start my car? :P

Sounds interesting, but I'm guessing they haven't been able to get this to supply enough energy for something as big as a car? If so, what isle at Walmart do I pick one of these up from? I'm teasing. :D

Someday, if we can get rid of the oil and gas lobbys, we might be able to run everything on free energy. Wouldn't that be great! In Al Gore's film, "An Inconvenient Truth", he says we have the technology right now to clean up the environment. We just have to have the will.

[Tom]

Think more along the lines of using that electricity to power nano-scale computers and self-replicating nano-assemblers.

The First Immortal: A Novel Of The Future (Mass Market Paperback)

http://www.amazon.com/First-Immortal-No ... 634&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/First-Immortal-Novel-Future/dp/0345421825/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7558986-6377623?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176136634&sr=8-1)

This book cites 5 books:

Man into Superman by R. Ettinger in Back Matter
Engines of Creation: The Coming Era of Nanotechnology by Eric Drexler in Back Matter
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan in Back Matter
War of the Worlds (Dd-3667) by Orson Welles on page 305
Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme by Richard Brodie in Back Matter


I tried to read some stuff by Eric Drexler, but it was too challenging for me. :) It is very impressive, though.

[SP3]

"We're not here for love, we're not here to live 1,000 human lives, we're not here for the hamburgers. We're here for the experience...period. That's it. That's all there is. Everything else is just icing on the cake."

Experience is not it… God doesn't need us to experience itself. How many sunsets would God need to experience to understand it is beautiful? ...... no that isn't it. We have freedom to make choices. Know that all that is, is God, decided by God, and directed by God. There is nothing which goes unnoticed, or unmeasured. Your choices dealing with obstacles and what you do with our life. Do you live your life looking for the next opportunity to take advantage of or do you think of ways to help others and grow gloser to God?

I believe we are born with our consciousness raised only to have it lowered by design, to dumb us down and be controlled easier. Our purpose is to raise our consciousness to grow closer to God and contribute something positive to the world as co-creators. Evolving all of humanity and find ways of making God proud on how each of us spend our lives. It is not easy. I am not a Christian, but I believe that Jesus Christ’s example of being human is more truthful than contemplating a thought about God and being satisfied with it. "Living a truth is different than realizing it."

So, that being said; enlightenment is a point one reaches to recognize truth amongst misinformation.

[ButterflyWoman]

Okay, this is a WEIRD synchronicity.

This thread is a couple of years old. However, for some weird reason, I read the entire thing a week or so ago (not all in one sitting, but the first night after I read about half of it, I dreamed about some of the things in the thread). This thread had a profound effect on my conscious awareness and really gave my awakening a boot.

And now the thread has been resurrected after a couple of years.... Weird. And interesting. My life is overflowing with syncrhonicity lately (and I love it).

That being said, the purpose of the thread, at least originally, was ONE person's experience with her own awakening. There's no need to "correct" her on her own experience. She saw what she saw, she experienced what she experienced, it profoundly changed her life and her outlook, and that's all there is to it. It's no use telling her that she got it wrong. She got what she got and she is who she is and it was what it was.

My own awakening (which I will NOT subject to public forum dissection, thank you) is similar, but different, because while many features of awakening are the same in a universal way, we're all unique vessels through which Consciousness perceives creation, and so we all have unique experiences.

I suppose it's a bit like making chili beans. Everyone has their own unique recipe, and while you can always say, "Yes, that's chili!" the recipes can vary wildly. ;)

[SP3]

Experience is just a tool, not the purpose of existence. If it was just experience we would be the same as animals and non reflective on ourselves, each other, God or the choices we make.

I could be rich but help no-one or poor and help everyone...which one would you choose?

[ButterflyWoman]

You utterly missed my point. It's all right. I'm not inclined to argue.

[wstein]

Experience is not it… God doesn't need us to experience itself. How many sunsets would God need to experience to understand it is beautiful? ...... no that isn't it. We have freedom to make choices. Know that all that is, is God, decided by God, and directed by God. There is nothing which goes unnoticed, or unmeasured. God makes no decisions, there is simply expression of self. God need not notice everything as its all simply experience. There will be more experiences or there won't, it doesn't matter; all are equally important and meaningless. God doesn't need measure anything, its all the same from an infinite perspective.

Your choices dealing with obstacles and what you do with our life. Do you live your life looking for the next opportunity to take advantage of or do you think of ways to help others and grow gloser to God This would suggest that you are trying to find God outside yourself rather than inside. Since God is everywhere (inside and out), waiting for opportunities is unnecessary. God is already with you where you are. Doing deeds simply moves you from one place where God is to another place where God is. The choice in dealing with obstacles IS yours, but don't use it as delaying tactic to avoid being close to God.

[wstein]

Okay, this is a WEIRD synchronicity.

This thread is a couple of years old. However, for some weird reason, I read the entire thing a week or so ago (not all in one sitting, but the first night after I read about half of it, I dreamed about some of the things in the thread). This thread had a profound effect on my conscious awareness and really gave my awakening a boot.

And now the thread has been resurrected after a couple of years.... Weird. And interesting. My life is overflowing with syncrhonicity lately (and I love it).

My own awakening (which I will NOT subject to public forum dissection, thank you) is similar, but different, because while many features of awakening are the same in a universal way, we're all unique vessels through which Consciousness perceives creation, and so we all have unique experiences. The dam bursts and the water floods in from all sides. Enjoy the ride!!! Its a beautiful sight from here, thank you.

[SP3]

God makes no decisions, there is simply expression of self. God need not notice everything as its all simply experience. There will be more experiences or there won't, it doesn't matter; all are equally important and meaningless. God doesn't need measure anything, its all the same from an infinite perspective.

I don't understand this. The point I was trying to make in response to the topic was that it isn't simply to experience but the choices you make dealing with those experiences. If it was just to experience, I could be a serial killer or a saint and it wouldn't matter because I am God experiencing itself...so it doesn't matter how I spend my life or what choices I make.


This would suggest that you are trying to find God outside yourself rather than inside. Since God is everywhere (inside and out), waiting for opportunities is unnecessary. God is already with you where you are. Doing deeds simply moves you from one place where God is to another place where God is. The choice in dealing with obstacles IS yours, but don't use it as delaying tactic to avoid being close to God.

No, that is not what I suggested. The opportunities I was referring to was everyday life choices we make and how that reflects on us to God. Do I take advantage of someone or do I help them. you think you are not being watched but you are, and it is measured, to move on to the next level. Just like school, you are watched and tested to pass the grade and move on to the next level, your not there just to look at the books...there is a point to it.

I don't have the answers, nor does anyone. But base on my understanding it is not simply to experience!

[Tempestinateapot]

Do I get a gold star for creating the longest thread, ever? Hi, Walter. *waves* Even I haven't read the whole thing. Last time I tried, it had gone so far off the rails that it was kind of absurd, so I gave up.


Do I take advantage of someone or do I help them. you think you are not being watched but you are, and it is measured, to move on to the next level. Just like school, you are watched and tested to pass the grade and move on to the next level, your not there just to look at the books...there is a point to it. Wow, is this ever fear based. One of the joys of waking up is to lose fear. This statement is the whole basis for religion and how it keeps it's hold on people. I'm seeing pictures of an avenging God, ready to strike down anyone who isn't obeying his "loving" commands. sending them off to some fiery hell. :D

You can't know that you are being measured, or that you will move on to some next level or school. How do you know that? Seriously, how do you know that? Did someone tell you that, or are you an original thinker and figured that out by yourself? By what authority can you make these claims? Honestly, I would like to know. I think you are missing the whole point of waking up.


I could be a serial killer or a saint and it wouldn't matter because I am God experiencing itself...so it doesn't matter how I spend my life or what choices I make. Now you are getting to the truth of the matter.

[wstein]

Do I get a gold star for creating the longest thread, ever? Hi, Walter. *waves* waves, wipe my eyes, is it really you???


Even I haven't read the whole thing. Last time I tried, it had gone so far off the rails that it was kind of absurd, so I gave up.


Do I take advantage of someone or do I help them. you think you are not being watched but you are, and it is measured, to move on to the next level. Just like school, you are watched and tested to pass the grade and move on to the next level, your not there just to look at the books...there is a point to it. Wow, is this ever fear based. One of the joys of waking up is to lose fear. This statement is the whole basis for religion and how it keeps it's hold on people. I'm seeing pictures of an avenging God, ready to strike down anyone who isn't obeying his "loving" commands. sending them off to some fiery hell. :D

You can't know that you are being measured, or that you will move on to some next level or school. How do you know that? Seriously, how do you know that? Did someone tell you that, or are you an original thinker and figured that out by yourself? By what authority can you make these claims? Honestly, I would like to know. I think you are missing the whole point of waking up. I agree that enlightenment is not about taking tests or going on to the next level. Every level is equally distant from the divine; as IT is everywhere. If you are an experienced OBEr, you can go to the 'edge' of the levels and look 'across' the levels as far as you can see. It looks like the edge of a book to me. Be sure to wave at those on other levels doing the same, as they may also be you. Its pretty clear from there that one level is not 'better' or more 'advanced' than another.

[Tempestinateapot]

Yes, Walter, it's really me. Or is the me that I think is the me really some other me dreaming of the me that is writing in this particular illusion? :lol:

[Ouroboros]

You gonna be sticking around for awhile Tempest, or is this a temporary visitation? I ask because there are some things I'd like to ask you about waking up, if you're interested in fielding the questions.

[Tempestinateapot]

I might be around for a little while. I never know anymore. I'm happy to have a give and take, but I'm hardly an authority on the matter. What I know is what I've gone through, and my interpretation of it. wstein is more of an authority on the subject, and has been "awake" a lot longer than I have. I'm sure he'd be happy to jump into the subject along with me...so ask away. Hey...I grew up in Texas and my relatives are still there!

[Ouroboros]

I might be around for a little while. I never know anymore. I'm happy to have a give and take, but I'm hardly an authority on the matter. What I know is what I've gone through, and my interpretation of it. wstein is more of an authority on the subject, and has been "awake" a lot longer than I have. I'm sure he'd be happy to jump into the subject along with me...so ask away.

Well, you may not have been a butterfly for long, but I'm still a caterpillar ;). But I would gladly welcome wstein's input as well.

First, I'd like to ask some things about your experiences being awake. Do you ever experience fear, or does being awake truly include a complete lack of fear? Are there any limits on the creative powers available?

Secondly, about the process itself. Is there any one (or two) thing(s) you could point you that assisted you the most in waking up? I know that you read Jed McKenna...was that very helpful to you? (I plan on getting his books myself, I just have to wait a couple more weeks before I can afford them.)

I keep hearing about how you can't cause enlightenment, or waking up or whatever you want to call it...you can only create the conditions in which realization can occur. If this is true, I'm trying to create the conditions as quickly and efficiently as possible. Any additional pointers or advice you might have would be welcome.

Edit: What part of Texas did you grow up in? I was born in Minnesota; I've been living in Houston for the last five years. I used to like summer :P

[Tempestinateapot]

I was having a conversation with OlderWiser, because an AD member was having a hard time coping with fears concerning death and the afterlife. I was writing an answer to OlderWiser's post, but I thought I would put it here instead, since it has to do with being awake and the consequences. OW, I hope you don't mind me quoting you. So, this is it:

OlderWiser ,
it's as real as anything else in the dreamstate that we think of as reality. At least, that's what I think/see at the moment. Tomorrow, I could think something else.You know, once you come to this kind of a conclusion, it's probably impossible to put that genie back in the bottle. With quantum physics becoming more accepted every day, even hard core scientists aren't so sure what our reality is. If we are just 90 whatever percent pure potential, then it seems to me that we basically only exist in our mind, whatever that is.

In the Seth material, he says that when I look at a table, and you think you are looking at the same table, you are not. We are seeing completely different tables, even though we can accurately describe them to be the same thing. We are each projecting an image of a table that is exclusive to ourselves. So, we are seeing a different perspective. The illusion becomes more complicated than just the simple statement that "everything is an illusion". The illusion that I'm seeing is not the same illusion that you are seeing. The illusion that someone else sees is different from the illusions that both of us see. And on and on into infinity. Kind of like the multi-verse theories.

Once your head goes there, I don't see how anyone can go back to the idea that a table is a solid object, based on what our 5 senses are telling us, and not an illusion. This is along the lines of how can someone go back to believing the Bible is written by the hand of God once they have learned how it was put together and all the politics around it. You'd basically have to go back to "sleep" again, using the analagy of waking up.

So, once a person has tipped themselves over into the Void, I don't see how a person could go back to their complacency that we "know" certain things based on our experience. The only conclusion left is that you can only know that you exist, and you can't even really be sure of who "you" are. Who is it that is actually experiencing these things? We can't know, at least not in this lifetime, and probably not as long as we keep reincarnating into this particular type of illusion. I think that the afterlife, for most people, is still going to be some kind of illusion, even the whole oversoul theory is still within the illusion. The question becomes, do you remain within the illusion and become some form of a god yourself, creating more universes and populating them, recognizing you are still operating within the illusion. Or, do you discard any illusion of separateness and merge back into the Source, losing any identity you may have acquired. Do we even have a choice? I don't know.

Trying to comfort someone who is grappling with their fears of death, the afterlife, etc., I think one can only give them "theories" based on what people have collectively experienced. To stand on a soapbox and tell people that these things are real facts isn't something a person will probably ever be able to do again, once they have woken up. Being "awake" doesn't mean that you live the idea 24/7 that the table is an illusion, especially when you bump your leg into it and it hurts. It just means that you have an overall idea that you are now merely an observer of illusion who still has to negotiate within that illusion, until you physically die and see what comes next for you.

So, to Ouroboros' questions, recognizing that I'm hardly an authority...
Do you ever experience fear, or does being awake truly include a complete lack of fear?I would say that overall, I don't experience fear. If someone pulled a gun on me, I would think that my heart would start racing, and I would have all the normal physiological reactions to that experience...sweating, increased blood pressure, etc. This would be a left over reaction to my life experiences and past fears, but more of a biological reaction, and a lingering shadow of those past fears. But, I wouldn't fear death, and I don't fear the future. I do sometimes get caught up in the normal stressors of life, like being late to a meeting, etc. But, I have this overall feeling of peace, and recognize these stressors are really kind of ridiculous.


Are there any limits on the creative powers available?Yes, I can't pull a bunny out of a hat when the bunny wasn't there in the first place. :D


Secondly, about the process itself. Is there any one (or two) thing(s) you could point you that assisted you the most in waking up? I know that you read Jed McKenna...was that very helpful to you? (I plan on getting his books myself, I just have to wait a couple more weeks before I can afford them.)My waking up was a process that went on for years, possibly a decade. Actually, long before that. I'm in my 50's, and when I was in my 20's I was a Bible thumper. But, I could never reconcile the idea of a loving God doing avenging things. Then, after more than a decade of apathy, I got into metaphysics. This opened up a whole new way of thinking. I had so many "mystical" experiences that I was sure were real. About the same time I started seeing auras, buildings warp, and hearing things others couldn't, I was also reading about Quantum theories. There's been a whole avalanche of material that has come out about comparing the old mystical beliefs with the new science of Quantum Mechanics, and how the two mesh together. The old Zen idea that everything is an illusion was being shown to be a reality by science. I started doubting my mystical experiences as being facts. About the same time, I became convinced that there is no ultimate right or wrong, that everything is merely someone's perspective. My son then recommended McKenna's first book to me. At first, I resisted the ideas in the book, wanting to hang onto the belief of a "loving" God. It soon became clear that I would have to release that belief, as there is no way for me or anyone else to prove it. It just doesn't make sense when you really break it down and truly think about it. God can't be loving and allow suffering. The Source has to be impersonal, it only makes sense. This is when I went through an anger phase, finally releasing all beliefs, which this thread is a witness to. I had to shed myself of all beliefs to find out what was really true. All of this lead to what McKenna talks about...cogito ergo sum, "I think, therefore I Am". That's all we really know...that "I" exist. Nothing else. There is nothing else that you can know. The rest is a bunch of educated (or not so educated) guesses. Ideas about God are just guesses, and everyone has their own guess (belief).

[Timotheus]

:D

[Tempestinateapot]

Ouroboros said,
I keep hearing about how you can't cause enlightenment, or waking up or whatever you want to call it...you can only create the conditions in which realization can occur. If this is true, I'm trying to create the conditions as quickly and efficiently as possible. Any additional pointers or advice you might have would be welcome.I don't know that I would agree with the above statements. Honestly, I don't know. It took a long time for me to go through the process, and that's really all I can speak to. My problem was that I had so many decades of being imprinted with other's ideas, so it took a long time for me to see that I needed to break free of all that and think entirely for myself. That's what it's all about...doing the work yourself. If you are young, you have less imprinting and belief crap to wade through. Unless, you have strong fundamental parents (in any religion or philosophy) who have had a major hand in shaping your thinking. The struggle then might be as hard as mine was, even if you are young.

Once you peel away your ego by peeling away your beliefs, you realize that your entire experience of who you are is based on all of these beliefs. When you get to the core, there is nothing left. Who are you if you don't have beliefs? It's a house of cards, once it starts falling, there's no stopping it. Try to stop using the mirror of other people to define who you are. As an example, think, am I likeable? I am only likeable when I use the mirror of how others react to what I do. If I stop doing likeable things, people stop reacting to me as a likeable person. They might think I'm a selfish person, a cold-hearted person, etc. But, am I? Or, did I just stop doing things that would get the reaction from them to prove to myself that I am likeable. You don't even have to be mean. Just don't smile at their jokes, don't react, don't engage in their conversation. They instantly think you are unlikeable. You have taken away the mirror for yourself. Would you still define yourself as likeable after that little experiment? You can't. What's left? Nothing. The point is, once you take away all these props that define who you are, there is nothing left. You are a hollow ego. That can be a bitter pill to swallow, and most people would deny it. In fact, they will fight to the finish to believe that they have substance. So, what are you really? I don't know. I can't know.

I am now comfortable with all of this. In fact, I like existing from this place a lot better than the way I was before. Those who want to hang onto the belief of who they are would call me anti-social, a nihilist, possibly even a socio-path. But, I've also come to recognize that there is nothing but the Source, which means there is no separation between me and anyone else. Or, what some call a non-dualistic approach. Only one, and no other. How can you be a socio-path when you feel a connection to everything?

Just by asking these questions, you are already in the process of waking up. Let it unfold by breaking everything down until you have only one truth left. The only one you can know without a doubt...you exist. Cogito ergo sum. Reading McKenna's books can definitely be a fast track if you've already started the process. But, never forget that only you can do the work. And, McKenna is just another Buddha on the road (as in "kill the Buddha). You have to go past him, also, in your quest. Which means, don't believe everything he says, either. Think for yourself.

I grew up in the pan handle and Dallas areas.

[Tempestinateapot]

Timotheus, have you actually been through the process of waking up? Some of what you wrote sounds like a lot of quotes from Zen Buddhism, Hinduism, and I don't know what else. It's easy enough to quote it, but to live it (meaning go through it) can actually be a hell unto itself. Just asking. I'm not sure what you wrote is of much help, as I rather prefer straight forward talk and explanation. I barely understood anything you said, and I'm familiar with all the terminology. It might be of more use to someone if you dumbed it down a bit. :wink: Unless, you are just talking to hear yourself talk, which has as much value as anything else, including helping someone.

[Timotheus]

:D

[ButterflyWoman]

Ouroboros, I would like to heartily and sincerely recommend getting your hands on a copy of Adyashanti's, "The End of Your World". It's a remarkably good book about the process of awakening, the nature of awakening, the things that sometimes hold us back or the delusions we latch on to along the way, and more. Really, really good book.

I'd also like to point out that you cannot achieve enlightenment. It is impossible. You are ALREADY one with everything and you are ALREADY the most powerful consciousness in the universe, you just don't remember that. The process of awakening is about remembering who you really are and what this is really all about. So, really, there's nothing to "achieve". It's just a long, slow process of dissolving the ties and attachments to the material, and that includes your own emotions, thoughts (especially those!), memories, and that which you think of as your personality. All that stuff is just STUFF, and it doesn't have anything more to do with the true self than the clothes you're wearing. You're not your clothes, you're not your body, you're not your personality, you're not your memories, you're not your mind, you're not your emotions. Those are all just tools you use in the material world (think of it as attribute scores on a game character, but the REAL player is the one at the controls or with those funny-shaped dice in their hand ;)).

[Ouroboros]

Those were some great responses, everyone! Lots to read over. A couple of quick things that jumped out at me the most:


Just by asking these questions, you are already in the process of waking up. Let it unfold by breaking everything down until you have only one truth left. The only one you can know without a doubt...you exist. Cogito ergo sum. Reading McKenna's books can definitely be a fast track if you've already started the process. But, never forget that only you can do the work. And, McKenna is just another Buddha on the road (as in "kill the Buddha). You have to go past him, also, in your quest. Which means, don't believe everything he says, either. Think for yourself.

There's one thing that interests me the most here: it seems hard for me to understand the leap from knowing the only truth is that I exist, to the leap of knowing that I'll always exist. Can you really know that you'll exist forever, especially if the only thing you know is that you exist?


Try to stop using the mirror of other people to define who you are. As an example, think, am I likeable? I am only likeable when I use the mirror of how others react to what I do. If I stop doing likeable things, people stop reacting to me as a likeable person. They might think I'm a selfish person, a cold-hearted person, etc. But, am I? Or, did I just stop doing things that would get the reaction from them to prove to myself that I am likeable...

You are a hollow ego. That can be a bitter pill to swallow, and most people would deny it. In fact, they will fight to the finish to believe that they have substance. So, what are you really? I don't know. I can't know.

I dunno, that doesn't seem like such a harsh thing to me. It seems obvious to me that the way you act determines how people respond to you, and if you want them to respond to you in a certain way, you act in a certain way. Although the lack of knowing what we are truly is interesting to me as well; that presents a point of uncertainty, and where there's uncertainty there generally tends to be fertile ground for fear.


The question becomes, do you remain within the illusion and become some form of a god yourself, creating more universes and populating them, recognizing you are still operating within the illusion. Or, do you discard any illusion of separateness and merge back into the Source, losing any identity you may have acquired. Do we even have a choice? I don't know.

I hope we have a choice. The first option of limitless creative potential sounds a helluva lot more entertaining to me, even knowing it's an illusion.


But, never forget that only you can do the work. And, McKenna is just another Buddha on the road (as in "kill the Buddha). You have to go past him, also, in your quest. Which means, don't believe everything he says, either. Think for yourself.

If you could outsource guaranteed enlightenment work, it would be a billion dollar industry already. ;) As long as I know what the work that needs to be done is, I'm willing to do it. It's just figuring out what has to be done that's the hard part.


Ouroboros, I would like to heartily and sincerely recommend getting your hands on a copy of Adyashanti's, "The End of Your World". It's a remarkably good book about the process of awakening, the nature of awakening, the things that sometimes hold us back or the delusions we latch on to along the way, and more. Really, really good book.

I'd also like to point out that you cannot achieve enlightenment. It is impossible. You are ALREADY one with everything and you are ALREADY the most powerful consciousness in the universe, you just don't remember that. The process of awakening is about remembering who you really are and what this is really all about. So, really, there's nothing to "achieve". It's just a long, slow process of dissolving the ties and attachments to the material, and that includes your own emotions, thoughts (especially those!), memories, and that which you think of as your personality. All that stuff is just STUFF, and it doesn't have anything more to do with the true self than the clothes you're wearing. You're not your clothes, you're not your body, you're not your personality, you're not your memories, you're not your mind, you're not your emotions. Those are all just tools you use in the material world (think of it as attribute scores on a game character, but the REAL player is the one at the controls or with those funny-shaped dice in their hand ;)).

I'll get that when I get the Jed McKenna book...then I'll have a couple of things to read. :)

If there is nothing to achieve, wouldn't I already feel enlightened? Enlightenment itself may not be achievable, but the realization would certainly have to be. There seems to be a change from not being awake to waking up.

[CFTraveler]

If there is nothing to achieve, wouldn't I already feel enlightened? Enlightenment itself may not be achievable, but the realization would certainly have to be. At some point, you would feel like you are now remembering. Not so much 'enlightened'- But, you know that feeling that there's a word you want to say, it's at the tip of your tongue, but you just can't bring it up? Then all of a sudden, after you stopped trying to remember, you suddenly remember? Something like that, but not specific.
Of course, I can only describe how it was for me- how it continues to be.
The difficulty in describing it is why this path is so personal. Path being the way of the consciousness, not of the part that already 'is'.
It can be different for someone else.
Ok, now I'm really walking away.

[ButterflyWoman]

If there is nothing to achieve, wouldn't I already feel enlightened?
Suppose you're in your bed, asleep, and you're dreaming that you're an octopus. Of course, in the dream, you believe you really ARE an octopus, swimming in the ocean or whatever it is you're doing in the dream. But in reality, you're a human being, lying in your bed, having a dream. You don't have to "achieve" the status of being a human being lying in your bed, having a dream. You already ARE that. You're just currently involved with the delusion/dream that you're an octopus.

So, no, you wouldn't necessarily feel enlightened. Why would you? When you're dreaming, you believe the dream environment, you interact with it as if it were real. You are not aware that you are lying in your bed sleeping. The process of becoming lucid in a dream works in that which we call reality, too, and you can also wake up completely (which is why it's called awakening). ;)

For what it's worth, I'd recommend reading the Adyashanti book prior to the Jed McKenna ones. I've got nothing against Jed McKenna, but the nature of the books is probably just best done the gentler way first and then the shock you out of your socks way (which is kinda what Jed McKenna is all about). ;)

[Palehorse Redivivus]

Once you peel away your ego by peeling away your beliefs, you realize that your entire experience of who you are is based on all of these beliefs. When you get to the core, there is nothing left. Who are you if you don't have beliefs? It's a house of cards, once it starts falling, there's no stopping it.

Just to play devil's advocate as I'm such a fan of doing... :twisted:

I remain skeptical of this whole idea that "there is no I." I discovered a way to literally blow up and burn off my belief structures... but at the end of that process, I was still fundamentally me. I'm just "me who lives in a universe of probabilities, rather than absolutes that I can make any sort of absolute statements about." It's an odd and semi-fluid way to exist, but it hasn't obliterated my sense of personal identity... only refined and expanded it if anything.

But I come at this from a different angle -- I started out in a state with a lot of similarities to how the state of "no self" is described from early on in my life, and ended up with a strong sense of self... by fixing a major disconnect in my energetic anatomy. Earlier in my life I actually believed there was no specific "I," no fundamental me-ness at my core; that it was all just impermanent and changeable, and that "I" could be anything or take on any trait that I felt like in any given situation. I was extremely passive, not because I was shy or afraid to speak up -- but because when it was my opinion against someone else's, I just didn't care enough about much of anything to have any say in the flow of events.

Things changed drastically when I figured out that my throat chakra, which is responsible for expressing myself, holding beliefs and opinions, and interpreting the outside world, was completely disconnected from the chakras above and below it, which are responsible for taking in stimulus and information. In other words, my ego was near death because it was isolated in a virtual state of sensory deprivation... but all things considered, I wouldn't exactly call that a good thing. I've since experienced my ego as an aspect of myself -- not my whole self -- but just as much "me" as any other part. I've found that when I'm not true to myself, I run into major problems, first because things start feeling "wrong" and then because life circumstances take a turn for the worst... and that includes the times when I've tried to integrate and operate with this idea that there is literally no distinction between myself and anyone else. How could this be if there was no fundamental "self" to be true to?

More on that throat chakra experience here if you or anybody else is inclined to do more reading; I'd be interested in anybody's take on how it might fit into this discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13653 (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13653)


Try to stop using the mirror of other people to define who you are. As an example, think, am I likeable? I am only likeable when I use the mirror of how others react to what I do. If I stop doing likeable things, people stop reacting to me as a likeable person

This is actually another part of what I've been trying to do. ;) My experience with the concept of being "likeable" was that I could simply take the idea onboard that I am likeable, I'd soon start feeling likeable, and without really changing anything else outwardly, peoples response to me changed drastically. Take other people out of the equation entirely and I'd still have the feeling, which came first. I could hypothetically take that feeling with me to live in a cave somewhere, or I could use it as a tool to have a certain type of experience with other beings... but I'd be willing to argue that I'd be likeable either way (and not because I'm full of myself, dammit :P).

But I posit that there are such things as eternal, universal or "divine" principles that exist independently of any opposite, or even anything to express them consciously. The most basic ones, near as I can tell, are wisdom, power and love -- all others may be a combination of those. Likeability would be a combination of the three with an emphasis on love, I'd guess.

IMO it *is* possible to define yourself without contrast -- by embodying these universal principles without their opposites, in the combination(s) of your own choosing. This, I think, may have been the meaning behind the whole "born again" thing before it got completely distorted -- you reach a point where you're no longer defined by your conditioning, beliefs, past, etc etc; you're entirely self-created.

But is none of this real and I'm just playing with an illusion that has no more substance than smoke? I s'pose that depends on who you ask. I'm getting more speculative here, but I posit that the creator has a light and dark side. Not that it's divided, but that it's more like the moon. There's only one moon, and it's an undivided whole... but there's a light side (Nirvana?) and a dark side (the Void?) and in between that, infinite shades of grey.

In art and/or science class we learned that light is all colors -- in my (current) cosmology, those three principles are the "primary colors" of the source's light side. The dark side offers shades, contrast, the appearance of opposites, and all potential events. Where the two meet, creation happens... and the part in the middle where things happen is just as "real" as any other part of the creator. ;) If you refer back to me being all happy and likeable, but alone in my cave... it's not hard to imagine that where there's potential, and "raw materials," there naturally arises a sort of frustration and a drive to DO something with it... which could be the "why" of creation.

I additionally posit that there are at least three basic possible paths for conscious beings. They're reached in different ways, but ironically being enlightened, or being a really effective sociopath ultimately brings similar end results -- your personal identity is either voluntarily relinquished on the light side or or forcibly annihilated by the dark, and you go back to being the potentials, energy and raw principles of the Source. The third path is where you stay in the middle, consciously surfing the sea of probabilities as it were, and eventually transcend the world of opposites so that you're using those eternal principles like an artist uses paint, to keep expanding, experiencing and creating. For the other two I would guess that the further away from the middle you move, the less "real" the stuff that's going on there will be for you.

Just a (continually revised) alternate view to consider, but I'd be interested in hearing anybody's thoughts on it.

[Tempestinateapot]

Ouro wrote (sorry, I'm too lazy to keep writing out your name): :D
Can you really know that you'll exist forever[quote:1s86kq61]The short answer is no. Not if were being honest, here. With my experience of awakening, I've discovered that I don't really care. I'm ok with whatever happens. I don't cling to my ego and the ego's need to continue. I have real peace for the first time in my life. When I was a Christian, I used to cling to the belief that I would be saved and spend eternity with Christ. For some reason, that still never gave me all that much peace. Maybe 'cause it sounded kind of boring. :D
[quote:1s86kq61]where there's uncertainty there generally tends to be fertile ground for fear.Again, I can only speak for myself. I've found the opposite to be true. Knowing that I can't know has tended to make me fearless. Like McKenna, I have no more questions, because there are no answers. I spent decades looking for answers, and it becomes a circular argument every time. Besides, the arguments are all just based on guesses. Empty egos arguing about things that they can't know...it gets exhausting. Maybe the exhaustion just took the fear right out of me. :?:

I hope we have a choice.I actually think we do. But, it's still a guess, based on those good ole mystical experiences, like Samadhi, that I've had. I have to say they were pretty convincing. God Consciousness is pretty convincing. Still...just a guess.

If you could outsource guaranteed enlightenment work, it would be a billion dollar industry already.Actually, it wouldn't. People don't really want to know. They want to cling to their illusions. Waking up is hard work, and not for sissies. :D

There seems to be a change from not being awake to waking up.There is, a big difference. Few people actually make it. The cost is everything. To actually realize that your spouse, your parents, your children, and your friends are no more important, and have no more substance than a rock is shocking, to say the least. You start seeing these empty egos that are filled up with self-importance (especially your own) and it actually makes you sick. Most of those who are awake want to live in isolation to get away from the egos. I'm married with grown chidlren, and I struggle with it. Almost left my husband of 20 years during my waking up phase. My 31 year old son is awake, and has told me to not be surprised if he just disappears one day. We've been close all his life, but I would completely understand. How many people can say that? How many people would want to say that? He's the only person in my family and friends I can talk to about this. He's the only one who gets it. Everyone else is afraid of the subject. Everybody wants to believe in something, to have some grand purpose they are fulfilling.
Timo said:
not for sissies? is this the heman enlightenment, by the power of grayskull? Excitabat enim fluctus in simpulo[/quote:1s86kq61][/quote:1s86kq61]Huh? :lol:

[Tempestinateapot]

Palearse said:
Earlier in my life I actually believed there was no specific "I," no fundamental me-ness at my core; that it was all just impermanent and changeable, and that "I" could be anything or take on any trait that I felt like in any given situation. I was extremely passive, not because I was shy or afraid to speak up -- but because when it was my opinion against someone else's, I just didn't care enough about much of anything to have any say in the flow of events. If you are talking about being "passive" you are still talking about your ego functioning in the world of illusion. It's helpful to use your ego in this sense, so that you can function in the world, but you are still operating under the illusion that there is anything there. I can say that "I" exist, but I still don't know who "I" actually is. Am I some puppet of some great puppeter? Do I have free will? Am I the master of my universe? All of these questions collapse under scrutinty. They collapse because I can't know, no matter how hard I try to know. The questions become a moot point. Circular arguments. What Palearse is talking about is something completely different from waking up. He's talking about a healthy way of functioning within the illusion, not about seeing the illusion for what it is.
But I posit that there are such things as eternal, universal or "divine" principles that exist independently of any opposite, or even anything to express them consciously. The most basic ones, near as I can tell, are wisdom, power and love -- all others may be a combination of those. Likeability would be a combination of the three with an emphasis on love, I'd guess. You can posit all day long, but it's still just a guess. You can't know. Not here, not now.
by embodying these universal principlesAt the risk of sounding repetitive, how can you know there are universal principles? You're still just guessing.
all potential events. Where the two meet, creation happens... and the part in the middle where things happen is just as "real" as any other part of the creator.Can't argue with this. I tend to agree based on observation and knowledge. But, it's still just a guess.
there naturally arises a sort of frustration and a drive to DO something with it... which could be the "why" of creation.Still can't argue with this, and tend to agree. Still just a guess.
The third path is where you stay in the middle, consciously surfing the sea of probabilities as it were, and eventually transcend the world of opposites so that you're using those eternal principles like an artist uses paint, to keep expanding, experiencing and creating. For the other two I would guess that the further away from the middle you move, the less "real" the stuff that's going on there be seem for you.Tend to agree here, too. This is similar to what I was saying about the possibility of growth (within the illusion of separateness) by becoming a god, and creating universes and populating them. In many ways, I think we are already doing this without realizing it. Every action (or I should say "thought" creates multiple possibilities that spring forth from us and creates alternate existences that we aren't aware of in this stage of the illusion. I think there are countless "me's" doing every possible thing that I've ever thought of. Some other me out there actually married the 2 other guys I was engaged to and didn't marry. Some other me went to the store when I decided to stay home today. But, notice that I said "I think", not that I "know". I can't know. I'm just positing. :twisted:

[wstein]

Do you ever experience fear, or does being awake truly include a complete lack of fear? There is very little fear. As TNT indicated, you may still act in a way to survive or avoid loss but you are not attached to the outcome. If it happens, great; if not, oh well. You can still retain motivations and desires but you realize that you are still you whether or not they come true.


Are there any limits on the creative powers available? I find enormous limitation in manifesting creativity here. In dreams and in other 'places', creative alteration is much less effort (whatever effort is). I keep wishing to drawn on my divine nature to alter the way things are here within the illusion. I often wish to 'transfer' experiences from other places I have been. I have not been able to envision anything that I have not found to be somewhere. So it seems that while creativity might have some limitations, manifesting is fully able to express it all. I struggle with the reverse, how to stop creating, that's how I got into this mess in the first place.


I keep hearing about how you can't cause enlightenment, or waking up or whatever you want to call it...you can only create the conditions in which realization can occur. If this is true, I'm trying to create the conditions as quickly and efficiently as possible. Any additional pointers or advice you might have would be welcome. While you can't force enlightenment, you certainly can clear many of the common obstacles. Keep in mind that everyone has a different delusion in which they are asleep. As such, one person's solution may be your trap.

However, the bottom line is that most common holdup is that people misidentify with their tools. They think that they are their ego, intellect, emotions, and bodies. Anything you can do to realize that you are still you with out them will certainly help.

Or to put this in another way, try to face the truth, see the truth no matter what. The truth is ugly, uncomfortable, and not real. The more you stand there and look at it, the less it has hold over you. At some point it will occur to you that there is no truth, and the flood gates might open.

[wstein]

The only conclusion left is that you can only know that you exist, and you can't even really be sure of who "you" are. Who is it that is actually experiencing these things? We can't know, at least not in this lifetime, and probably not as long as we keep reincarnating into this particular type of illusion. I think that the afterlife, for most people, is still going to be some kind of illusion, even the whole oversoul theory is still within the illusion. The question becomes, do you remain within the illusion and become some form of a god yourself, creating more universes and populating them, recognizing you are still operating within the illusion. Or, do you discard any illusion of separateness and merge back into the Source, losing any identity you may have acquired. Do we even have a choice? I don't know. Actually, the whole idea of existance falls too. The oversoul clearly is part of the illusion though is lacks actuality of form. Although its mostly consciousness, it does have structure and thus form of a sort. Its not too hard to see there are 'places' of pure potential with no actual realization of form. It occurs to many that nothing actually exists, including ourselves. In face of the undifferentiated ALL, that seems more likely than that something actually is. That doesn't help much with explaining why the question can even be asked.

I can't be sure but it seems that we can wake up to being seperate (to merge back) in the same way one wakes up in the sense discussed in this thread.

[wstein]

Are there any limits on the creative powers available?Yes, I can't pull a bunny out of a hat when the bunny wasn't there in the first place. :D Not to worry the hat isn't there either. :) [/quote]

[wstein]

As an example, think, am I likeable? I am only likeable when I use the mirror of how others react to what I do. If I stop doing likeable things, people stop reacting to me as a likeable person. They might think I'm a selfish person, a cold-hearted person, etc. But, am I? Or, did I just stop doing things that would get the reaction from them to prove to myself that I am likeable. You don't even have to be mean. Just don't smile at their jokes, don't react, don't engage in their conversation. They instantly think you are unlikeable. You have taken away the mirror for yourself. Would you still define yourself as likeable after that little experiment? You can't. What's left? Nothing. The point is, once you take away all these props that define who you are, there is nothing left. You are a hollow ego. That can be a bitter pill to swallow, and most people would deny it. In fact, they will fight to the finish to believe that they have substance. So, what are you really? I don't know. I can't know. On a purely practical level, this situation can be problematic. People in general do not react well when you don't actively help maintain their illusion. Their self constructed illusion is unstable, which they sense at some level. This is the basis of all the fear. Often they will react to you in a negative way even though all you are not doing is engaging in their self generated story. For many, dealing with their family will be the hardest (you are most invested in this part of the illusion). You likely will encounter enormous pressure to conform to 'reality'. Curiously, once you become more awake than asleep, you become less of a threat. Still, try to be considerate of the local wildlife, as it still hurts when it bites you. So, I suggest not pushing it in their face unless you have to.

[wstein]

Just to play devil's advocate as I'm such a fan of doing... :twisted:

I remain skeptical of this whole idea that "there is no I." I discovered a way to literally blow up and burn off my belief structures... but at the end of that process, I was still fundamentally me. I'm just "me who lives in a universe of probabilities, rather than absolutes that I can make any sort of absolute statements about." It's an odd and semi-fluid way to exist, but it hasn't obliterated my sense of personal identity... only refined and expanded it if anything. OK, devil, I'll play a round or two. Games can be fun.

Probably a worthwhile activity, but not relevant to this discussion. Reread what you wrote. You talk about shedding small portions of your stuff and feeling little different. Of course not. Does your body feel much different because you trim your toe nails? If you wish to pursue this topic, shed ALL of that stuff that's not truly you. That includes the structures you prize so much called 'me' and 'identity'. Then see what's left? If then there is something, perhaps you have a point.

[Tempestinateapot]

wstein said,
Still, try to be considerate of the local wildlife, as it still hurts when it bites you. So, I suggest not pushing it in their face unless you have to.Hey, I said it was an "experiment" . :shock: I didn't say it was a good way to function in the world. Although, I have to admit, it's kind of fun when you're at a party and talking to someone you don't like. Bwahahahahahahahahaha! :twisted:

[wstein]

But is none of this real and I'm just playing with an illusion that has no more substance than smoke? I s'pose that depends on who you ask. I'm getting more speculative here, but I posit that the creator has a light and dark side. Not that it's divided, but that it's more like the moon. There's only one moon, and it's an undivided whole... but there's a light side (Nirvana?) and a dark side (the Void?) and in between that, infinite shades of grey. If you ask me, the moon emits very little light. The moon does not express two separate natures because sunlight shining on only part of it. Its you (the watcher) that assigns some attributes to different parts of the moon based on whether or not sunlight is currently illuminating it. As such, it's you that's divided, not the moon.

BTW there are times when the moon is more or less completely shadowed of sunlight (no direct sunlight falls on it).

[Tempestinateapot]

wstein said,
BTW there are times when the moon is more or less completely shadowed of sunlight (no direct sunlight falls on it).I think Palearse knows that. It's when his arse is at it's palest. :P

[wstein]

wstein said,
Still, try to be considerate of the local wildlife, as it still hurts when it bites you. So, I suggest not pushing it in their face unless you have to.Hey, I said it was an "experiment" . :shock: I didn't say it was a good way to function in the world. Although, I have to admit, it's kind of fun when you're at a party and talking to someone you don't like. Bwahahahahahahahahaha! :twisted: I am talking from actual experience, its not much fun and it does hurt. I have been bitten by a human on the hand in response to not taking their 'concerns' 'serious' enough.

BTW having them run in terror from a party is a kind of awkward (though less painful to you) - also has actually happened to me.

Be evil and play, just don't get careless....

[ButterflyWoman]

But is none of this real and I'm just playing with an illusion that has no more substance than smoke?
I wouldn't frame it that way. It's more like a dream. When you're in the dream, it's very real. It has substance, the events in it affect you. To say that material reality has no substance is way oversimplifying. Anything we can experience is "real" in some sense of that word. Dreams are "real". So is pain, even though it's transient (and you can actually learn to perceive it in other ways). The question is whether it is enduring, and whether it is, ultimately, absolute reality.

I rather suspect that until you see it or experience it or realise it or however you want to put it, you can't really understand it. It's something you have to grok* from the inside. Oh, and it can take some time to adjust to that, I should add. It can be a real back and forth struggle to maintain awareness (or such has been my ongoing experience).

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok

[Palehorse Redivivus]

Probably a worthwhile activity, but not relevant to this discussion. Reread what you wrote. You talk about shedding small portions of your stuff and feeling little different. Of course not. Does your body feel much different because you trim your toe nails? If you wish to pursue this topic, shed ALL of that stuff that's not truly you. That includes the structures you prize so much called 'me' and 'identity'. Then see what's left? If then there is something, perhaps you have a point.

Well nonwithstanding the fact that I kind of need this body if we're going to have this conversation...

I was talking about beliefs because Patty mentioned belief structures as something people identify with (which is true), and jettisoning them as a domino effect from which there is no return (which was not my experience... it was just another change in state)... I didn't say that's ALL I've jettisoned.

Hell, in the past three months I've gone through some sort of process where anything I might have rigidly considered "vital" was ripped away... violently. It was as if something said "so you think you can't be you without this, eh? *yoink!* NOW who are you?" It didn't go as far as it cou ld have physically, although enough happened to where I was able to look at a lot of things that didn't get taken, and ask "if that got taken, who would I be?" I was able to jettison fear by having a lot of my personal worst case scenarios played out, and can agree with Patty's assessment that sometimes the body still feels fear when it thinks it's threatened, but it doesn't have the "punch" or the hold that it once did. At some point in the middle of this I deliberately offered everything up for the taking that the process wanted; a Palearse Liquidation Sale as it were... and I think that may have been when it stopped. And yet "identity" still wasn't done away with; just its rigidity and attachments.

As for getting rid of "me" and "identity"... as I was saying earlier, I spent a lot of years actively trying to do away with that, and at one time didn't particularly care to exist in any form anymore, so it's not like I have any aversion to getting rid of them if they were something that could be gotten rid of... or, even now, if I thought it corresponded with my path. I repressed it, attacked it, relinquished it, tried to change it into something other than what it was to negate its existence, ignored it, damaged myself to the point of experiencing it as nonexistent, and continued functioning without it. I even inadvertently jettisoned a few aspects of myself who ended up acting on their own and scaring the crap out of some people without my knowledge. I know of ways that I could remove this incarnation's awareness of itself and basically just be a body doing bodily things, but this incarnation has also been in touch with a higher self that would likely still be there, probably thinking "damn, lost another one." I value my identity now partly because I figured "I can't get rid of it, so I might as well" and partly because at this point its become something I have / am creating deliberately.

Some people take the concept of "illusion" and take it to the conclusion "nihilism" I think I just went in a different direction and choose to assign value for the same reason as I would to a painting. You could take a painting and zoom in far enough to where it wouldn't look like anything. You could zoom in further still to where it would be a collection of particles with no discernable order or differentiation from surrounding collections of particles. You could even destroy the painting, as will happen to all creations, and that's okay too... but that does not, IMO, detract from the experience of having created it.

I think I'm about done in for the night, but I did want to answer Patty's comment about how I "know" there are universal principles...

Well, like anything else, I'm operating in probabilities here, though this one is a "high probability" concept for me. To take love for example, around the same time as I was exploring the concept of exactly what love IS, I happened to read that apparently in quantum physics, if you break things down far enough, "there are no objects, only relationships." I still haven't completely wrapped my head around how relationships can exist without something to exist between, but all the same, this synced up perfectly with my findings regarding the properties of what we call "love." That we're swimming in a permeating field of the stuff that they haven't managed to break down any further yet, and may not, seems readily verifiable for scientist and layman alike, and not just some romanticized cliche. Of course, if my theory has any validity, you could combine love with the other "elements" and go back to undifferentiated light, but whether the principles still existed would be a matter of semantics IMO. Same as the impression I'm getting on the identity question, really... it's all a matter of what part of the fractal you're currently zoomed in on.

I still think it may be a case of different paths for different people; some on a path of self-annihilation, and others on a path of becoming and self-creation, while both may recognize the same illusion.

[ButterflyWoman]

I still think it may be a case of different paths for different people; some on a path of self-annihilation, and others on a path of becoming and self-creation, while both may recognize the same illusion.
I think those are probably one and the same thing.

[Timotheus]

:D

[CFTraveler]

@ Tim
I think you and TNT are saying the same thing. (Hee hee hee, thanks, Walter.)
BTW Tim, you were in my vision screen this morning. It was strange.

[Tempestinateapot]

I think maybe we need a definition here. One of the definitions of illusion that I'm talking about is that there is any separation from the Source. In other words, there are two ways of being...one is being (living?) in the non-dual world of awareness where you recognize there is no separation between you and anything else. In common terminology...everyone is One. The other way of being is within the dualistic universe of thinking there is a God and that you are separate from him, possibly even feel the need to worship him or ask for forgiveness from him (thus religions). You also feel a separation between you and others. This is the way most people operate in the world, and the world often institutionalizes anyone who doesn't see the separation. I live somewhere between the two, recognizing that I can't go around telling everyone that I see no separation, that we are just different aspects of One mind. I could get locked up and drugged up for that. The difference between me and someone who is locked up is that I know the difference. I can choose to move between the illusion and the reality. I'm a non-dualist iving in a dualist world, and I know it. I'm awake.

The other definition of illusion within the context of this thread is related, but slightly different. If you take away all the props to your ego that give you a feeling of yourself, there is nothing left. Well, not exactly nothing. What's left is awareness of non-dualism...there is no "you", there is only the One.

If you've ever read any of Bruce Moen's books, he's had OBE experiences where he "discovered" that the Source itself is not love, but that love is the glue that binds everythng togethter. Not in a romantic or ooey gooey way, but it's the thing that reminds us that we are all One, so we keep striving to get back to the One. This rather makes sense to me, but it still isn't waking up. The waking up process means that you no longer "strive" to join with Source. You become aware that you are already there, and you can't be anywhere else. It's just an illusion that there is any separation.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

I wouldn't frame it that way. It's more like a dream. When you're in the dream, it's very real. It has substance, the events in it affect you. To say that material reality has no substance is way oversimplifying. Anything we can experience is "real" in some sense of that word. Dreams are "real". So is pain, even though it's transient (and you can actually learn to perceive it in other ways). The question is whether it is enduring, and whether it is, ultimately, absolute reality.

I think you frame it pretty much the same way I do (and continue to think there's a lot of what boils down to differences in semantics elsewhere in the thread). I'm having an increasingly hard time taking anything that goes on here seriously, because 1. "here" is so impermanent, and 2. I'm in the process of leaving. This place is indeed a dream, and not even a particularly good one for reasons Wstein touched on, having to do with the difficulty in manifesting creativity. For whatever else it is, this particular dream is a rapid crash-course in individuation, though, and for that reason it has its uses.


The other definition of illusion within the context of this thread is related, but slightly different. If you take away all the props to your ego that give you a feeling of yourself, there is nothing left. Well, not exactly nothing. What's left is awareness of non-dualism...there is no "you", there is only the One.

That's been problematic for me (from the perspective that if you take everything away there's "supposed" to be nothing left) because when I remove everything that's within my ability to remove... my higher self is left. I (meaning this incarnation) can shut myself off from him and probably do a number on myself convincing myself he doesn't exist (which is the state I was in in the past). Try as I might though, I didn't have the option of negating him for the same reason one of my skin cells doesn't have the option of telling this entire incarnation how to conduct itself.

But then, while maintaining the knowledge that everything is the Source, as I said, I'm on a path of individuation (as opposed to negation)... IOW, negation didn't work for me because that's not the path I'm on or the particular sort of awakening I signed up for, as I learned the hard way, though there seem to be similarities. Will probably write about what the path of individuation has entailed for me elsewhere, because it's a very specific path with its own hallmarks and MO that doesn't involve a re-merging with Source, and I'd guess there are a lot of other people in a similar situation who are on it, that frustrate themselves as I did, identifying themselves as the whole Source. I suspect there are also people who accidentally trigger the merge between their own consciousness and cosmic awareness before the former is able to withstand it, so their spiritual and psychological makeup bursts like a cell membrane, and they lose themselves. U.G. Krishnamurti is an example of this. Then there are people like C.G. Jung, who had the cosmic experience, came pretty close to losing himself, but somehow managed to pull it back together. IMO this is all important to consider, because from the perspective of wanting to keep individuating, having the cosmic oneness experience before the "I" is able to withstand it would be dangerous. Once it happens, there may or may not be any hope of putting Humpty Dumpty back together again.


If you've ever read any of Bruce Moen's books, he's had OBE experiences where he "discovered" that the Source itself is not love, but that love is the glue that binds everythng togethter. Not in a romantic or ooey gooey way, but it's the thing that reminds us that we are all One, so we keep striving to get back to the One. This rather makes sense to me, but it still isn't waking up. The waking up process means that you no longer "strive" to join with Source. You become aware that you are already there, and you can't be anywhere else. It's just an illusion that there is any separation.

Very cool; I reached a very similar conclusion, though not through OBE, and I forgot Moen talked on this. Although I would disagree that the "purpose" of love is to prod us toward Source. Love just is what it is, and its properties make it a versatile tool we can use for a number of things, or even shut ourselves down and/or lose the ability to process it entirely.

[Ouroboros]

This is a very interesting discussion. Are there really two different paths with two completely different endpoints? One in which you lose all individuality, and another in which you individually create your own entire Universe and spend eternity playing with your imagination? Cuz I have to say, the second sounds a helluva lot more fun to me.

[wstein]

That's been problematic for me (from the perspective that if you take everything away there's "supposed" to be nothing left) because when I remove everything that's within my ability to remove... my higher self is left. I (meaning this incarnation) can shut myself off from him and probably do a number on myself convincing myself he doesn't exist (which is the state I was in in the past). Try as I might though, I didn't have the option of negating him for the same reason one of my skin cells doesn't have the option of telling this entire incarnation how to conduct itself. There's a clue here for you. It took me several rereadings to catch exactly where.

Waking up is not about removing everything that's you. It often involves removing things that are NOT you, but that is just the lead-up. A lot of waking up is about realizing that much of what you thought of as you actually isn't, and much of what you thought of as 'other' is actually so connected with you that it might well be part of you too.

Its clear that you feel a one-down relationship with your higher self, yet you don't identify it as 'you'. As such; whether or not it remains after your effort, is not relevant to being awake. Perhaps this struggle with the higher self is blocking your progress on waking up (assuming you want that).

Part of the big realization is that being incarnate makes you utterly dependant on much which you rather believe is not connected to you. You may choose to identify as separate from lots of stuff, but that does not free you from dealing with it. Pretty much there are no humans are able to free themselves from the higher self. The best I've heard of is a kind of "Mexican standoff" where neither does what the other wants.

I will go out on a limb here and confirm that you are utterly powerless at this point to oust your higher self. You are going to have to come to another solution. The best I can offer here is that you are just as divine and just as infinite as your higher self (as are all separate beings).

[wstein]

This is a very interesting discussion. Are there really two different paths with two completely different endpoints? One in which you lose all individuality, and another in which you individually create your own entire Universe and spend eternity playing with your imagination? Cuz I have to say, the second sounds a helluva lot more fun to me. Are you aware of how long eternity is?? Speaking for myself, I'm tired of make believe. I've imagined much and it was once fun, but now has lost it appeal. I wish to 'sleep' now, whole, where there are no paths.

The anguish you sense here is that both are the path. Together, they are incompatible, dissonant, and painful. Either one alone is pretty alright in my book. As TNT indicated, being awake is to have one foot on each path. Examining each path seems to indicate the other to be not real. Yet there seems no indication which one.

[ButterflyWoman]

Are there really two different paths with two completely different endpoints?
My opinion is that there are an infinite number of paths, and one ultimate conclusion, though you may not reach it in this lifetime.


One in which you lose all individuality
Uhm, no. You don't lose all individuality. It's not like you suddenly turn into some sort of automaton or something. You retain your personality, you just understand it from a different perspective. It's a sort of "costume" that you wear to interact with the world. If you haven't got an ego-self, you can't operate in the world.

A metaphor I like is that the ego-self is like scuba gear. You MUST have it in order to operate in a marine environment. You can't breathe underwater, so you have to have some sort of apparatus to enable it. It's only equipment. It's only a tool. But you need it to be in the environment.

So lose your ego-self and you end up having to go live in a cave somewhere and never interact with the world because you just utterly lack the ability to do that. Some yogis and saints have done that, but I don't it's necessary, personally. Even the Buddha, who took up a life of absolute asceticism for many years before finally realising that he needed to let that go and find a different path.

Personally, I like the model of Shiva, who is both ascetic and wholly sensual, and neither and both, all at the same time. Or Jesus, who was both "Son of Man" and "Son of God" simultaneously.

What is supposed to happen is that you simply become unattached to your personality, you stop thinking of it as "you", because you know who you REALLY are, and it's not the collection of thoughts, memories, emotions, factoids, daydreams, and so forth that most people think of as who they are.


and another in which you individually create your own entire Universe and spend eternity playing with your imagination? Cuz I have to say, the second sounds a helluva lot more fun to me.
You're already are doing that. You just don't remember, because you don't remember who/what you really are. Yet.

[Timotheus]

:D

[ButterflyWoman]

there's a lot of what boils down to differences in semantics elsewhere in the thread
Yes, very likely. Language is a clumsy tool for talking about things metaphysical, or, indeed, Absolute Truth (not that I claim to know that... yet.... ;)).

[star]

I was really interested in enlightenement. I read Jed's material, for the life of me I don't think I totally got it. I would like Tom's opinion on a few more things, anyway.

[ButterflyWoman]

Try Adyashanti. I particularly recommend "The End of Your World". His approach is gentle but very straightforward.

[wstein]

ok, who's Walter? I am.

[Tempestinateapot]

star said:
I was really interested in enlightenement. I read Jed's material, for the life of me I don't think I totally got it.I think the reason that you didn't entirely get it is that he doesn't lay out a plan (step 1, step 2, step 3) for someone. He talks around it, which he actually admits. He says it's because you have to do the work yourself to get it. I totally agree with this. BUT, I do think he failed to make some things clear, which he sort of clears up in the 3rd book. So, the first book is mainly about being awake...tearing down your ego by getting rid of any beliefs to see what's left. The third book is more about functioning in the world once you've done that.

I part ways with him on his "philosophy", which is not what he calls it, but I think that it is a philosophy. He goes into the cogito (I think, therefore I AM), and the whole idea that the only thing you can know for sure is that you exist, but he expands on it. IMO, his expansion is not something you can actually know. He seems to like a lot of the Zen Buddhism ideas of illusion and flow, going into how everything is an illusion, but you can "flow" with the universe and have things you want to manifest, if you stay in the flow. Here is where I part ways...while I agree about illusion and flow, I still don't think it's something you can know with absolute certainty. I think it's something you can observe, and guess that that's what's happening, but you can't know for sure. I stand by the cogito, and know that the only thing I can absolutely know for sure is that I exist.

I don't think I can even know who "I" am that exists. Am I just me, with my own set of experiences and possible past lives? Am I part of an oversoul, with a huge collection of other souls and their past lives? Are the past lives I'm remembering mine, or someone else's who may (or may not) be a part of my oversoul? Are they other versions of myself in other dimensions (mulit-verse theory)?

While all of these existences are real in the sense that my life now is real, they are still part of the illusion that there is any separation between myself and Source. Here's the big kicker...I still can't know that "illusion" theory is true. I've had experiences that make me think that it's true...but, I DON"T KNOW! McKenna seems to think he knows, which kind of negates the cogito. He doesn't seem aware (to me, anyway) that his ideas (Zen based) of illusion are still something you can't know with absolute, positive, complete knowing.

[star]

I don't think I can even know who "I" am that exists. Am I just me, with my own set of experiences and possible past lives? Am I part of an oversoul, with a huge collection of other souls and their past lives? Are the past lives I'm remembering mine, or someone else's who may (or may not) be a part of my oversoul? Are they other versions of myself in other dimensions (mulit-verse theory)?

While all of these existences are real in the sense that my life now is real, they are still part of the illusion that there is any separation between myself and Source. Here's the big kicker...I still can't know that "illusion" theory is true. I've had experiences that make me think that it's true...but, I DON"T KNOW! McKenna seems to think he knows, which kind of negates the cogito. He doesn't seem aware (to me, anyway) that his ideas (Zen based) of illusion are still something you can't know with absolute, positive, complete knowing.

I only read the first two. Thanks for the clarification. If your interested in the mystical side energy cultivation will help you get to a point where that sort of information becomes available, and its easier to understand and reach than enlightenement in my opinion. I was reaching into that area within 2 hours of my first workshop, and it was fairly simple.

The who I am part is difficult for me too, it was suggested that I become aware, then aware of being aware, then aware of who is being aware. Then a crack of light should pop into my perceptions. Or something like that.

[Timotheus]

:D

[Palehorse Redivivus]

Waking up is not about removing everything that's you. It often involves removing things that are NOT you, but that is just the lead-up. A lot of waking up is about realizing that much of what you thought of as you actually isn't, and much of what you thought of as 'other' is actually so connected with you that it might well be part of you too.

Yeah, I've done a lot of "removing what isn't me" although as far as "other," that's something I've learned to define according to the experience I want to have at a given time. Conceptually I can see how others could be considered "me," especially in light of ideas from quantum physics. Although in practice, I draw boundaries in order to experience within them; when I feel like I've done all I can or want to do within those boundaries I'll probably expand them. Early on in my spiritual exploration I started defining everything as "part of myself" and found that that wasn't going to fly for the practical purpose of living in a 3D world, because elements of that world took this as "that guy has no personal boundaries, so there's nothing to stop us from having our way with him." Boundaries may be as illusory as the lines we draw between states and countries, but in certain contexts they're a useful illusion... and I can still say "this is my personal space" while realizing that it's only "mine" for the sake of convenience.


Its clear that you feel a one-down relationship with your higher self, yet you don't identify it as 'you'. As such; whether or not it remains after your effort, is not relevant to being awake. Perhaps this struggle with the higher self is blocking your progress on waking up (assuming you want that).


I do identify my HS as "me"; linguistically it just comes off as if I don't because my posts would be really awkward and convoluted otherwise, lol. I perceive my HS's relation to my (3D) self similarly to my relation with those aspects that fragmented off due to my unhealthy coping mechanisms. While they were fragmented those aspects were able to act on their own without my knowledge, and when I figured out what was going on I was able to communicate with them as if they were separate, and eventually reintegrate them with the whole of 3D-me. Near as I can tell this 3D-me will eventually reintegrate with the HS, along with whatever other incarnations I've had. Even now I identify my HS, myself and my other lifetimes as one entity, and having them all gain conscious awareness of each other so it's all functionally one entity is kind of a pet project.


Part of the big realization is that being incarnate makes you utterly dependant on much which you rather believe is not connected to you. You may choose to identify as separate from lots of stuff, but that does not free you from dealing with it. Pretty much there are no humans are able to free themselves from the higher self. The best I've heard of is a kind of "Mexican standoff" where neither does what the other wants.

Sure, but does "having to deal with it" necessarily = "having to identify with it"? There's a lot of stuff I have to depend on in order to survive in a 3D world, and while that may influence the identity I take with me, presumably the bulk of it that's body-related will be left behind with the body. I've also had some experience of everything being interconnected at the energetic level like a web, which you could see either as a single whole or a bunch of interconnected parts IMO.


I will go out on a limb here and confirm that you are utterly powerless at this point to oust your higher self. You are going to have to come to another solution. The best I can offer here is that you are just as divine and just as infinite as your higher self (as are all separate beings).

I've actually gotten the impression that it's possible to detach from one's HS... though that's not a route I plan on going down. It basically involves an individual proceeding so far down the dark path that they alienate themselves from the HS, vibrationally and energetically, and end up as something along the lines of a negative entity that, without that "lifeline," has to sustain itself by taking energy from others. I've also wondered if one could make a mutally amicable decision to part ways with their HS, and go off on their own evolutionary track that the HS didn't originally intend and no longer has an active role in. I started thinking along those lines after my experience reintegrating those aspects -- I talked the situation through with them and then they reintegrated, but I got the impression that they could've just as easily chosen to go their own way, and then my choice would have been whether to try and force the issue, or not.

As for being "just as divine and infinite" I can "grok" that on a macro and conceptual level, though for practical purposes IMO the illusion only becomes an illusion once we figure out how to transcend it. Until then I can't even make a sandwich appear in front of me without either resorting to getting off my arse, or giving my girlfriend the puppydog eyes. :P Oddly enough though that reminds me of a lucid dream I once had. IIRC I was in what seemed like an underground medieval style dungeon (basically a blank stone room with a dirt floor) when I suddenly went lucid and realized I didn't have to be there or could otherwise change the environment to suit. So I tried to make something happen that I wanted to see. I actually heard a voice say "you know you can't do that right now" (?!) and then I woke up. I've had similar experiences in other dreams, though not with the narrator. :shock:

If this (earth) illusion is going to veto my attempts to create and experience, and my illusory dreams are going to do the same, and knowing that there is no separation between myself, the Source of all creation and creation itself doesn't change that... I'd kind of like to know where and when I can "do that." Heh.

[Ouroboros]

If this (earth) illusion is going to veto my attempts to create and experience, and my illusory dreams are going to do the same, and knowing that there is no separation between myself, the Source of all creation and creation itself doesn't change that... I'd kind of like to know where and when I can "do that." Heh.

Dude...you pretty much summed up my stance exactly. :P Cuz that's pretty much one of the major things I'm struggling with right now. If I can't do it here, where and when can I do it? Hmm...that actually be playing a more major role than I previously thought, as a kind of stumbling block. I'm almost obsessed with that question.

[Tempestinateapot]

The whole point of this thread is about waking up and what that means. It seems to have devolved into a debate about how to make a sandwich in the real world. :wink: No one who is awake would debate the need for making adjustments to living in the 3D world. Of course it's necessary. Walter knows how to make a sandwich, and doesn't try to conjure one up just because he ultimately thinks it's an illusion.

Star said:
If your interested in the mystical side energy cultivation will help you get to a point where that sort of information becomes available, and its easier to understand and reach than enlightenement in my opinion.I completely disagree (sorry Star). I've been doing energy work for years, am a Reiki Master/Teacher, a Quantum Touch practitioner, and have been to so many of Robert's energy work workshops (3 live and 1 internet) that I could almost do one myself. At one point, I overdeveloped my energy body to the point that my physical body couldn't keep up, and as a result had an almost 4 hour Samadhi experience that took a year to recover from. I don't think this gave me enlightenment. It certainly gave me a view and a perspective that was mind blowing where I became (or merged with if you like) God and had all knowingness. As awesome as that was, and as awesome as other similar experiences I've had are, I can't say with certainty that they are real. I don't know what they are. Yes, they showed me that life as I know it right now is an illusion, that I am more than I "think" I am. I don't just talk theory, through energy work and meditation I've become my oversoul. I've walked the walk, not just read about it in books. I seem to skip right on past the RTZ (real time zone) and head straight for the higher and highest levels. Godangit, why can't I have just one RTZ experience? :roll: Regardless of what I've been through, I can't get around "the only thing I can know with absolute certainty is that I exist". These OBE experiences have taught me about illusion. But, I still can't know if those experiences, themselves, are illusions. Am I repeating myself? Yes, and I will again. The only thing I can know with absolute certainty is that I exist. The rest are just guesses.

[wstein]

Waking up is not about removing everything that's you. It often involves removing things that are NOT you, but that is just the lead-up. A lot of waking up is about realizing that much of what you thought of as you actually isn't, and much of what you thought of as 'other' is actually so connected with you that it might well be part of you too. Yeah, I've done a lot of "removing what isn't me" although as far as "other," that's something I've learned to define according to the experience I want to have at a given time. Conceptually I can see how others could be considered "me," especially in light of ideas from quantum physics. Although in practice, I draw boundaries in order to experience within them; when I feel like I've done all I can or want to do within those boundaries I'll probably expand them. Early on in my spiritual exploration I started defining everything as "part of myself" and found that that wasn't going to fly for the practical purpose of living in a 3D world, because elements of that world took this as "that guy has no personal boundaries, so there's nothing to stop us from having our way with him." Boundaries may be as illusory as the lines we draw between states and countries, but in certain contexts they're a useful illusion... and I can still say "this is my personal space" while realizing that it's only "mine" for the sake of convenience. Its not about removing boundaries so much. As you point out, they serve a practical value. Its about realizing that the boundaries are arbitrarily defined by you. There is no inherent separation but rather a continuum of connection. Expand them or don't expand them, place them wherever works for you at the moment.


Part of the big realization is that being incarnate makes you utterly dependant on much which you rather believe is not connected to you. You may choose to identify as separate from lots of stuff, but that does not free you from dealing with it. Pretty much there are no humans are able to free themselves from the higher self. The best I've heard of is a kind of "Mexican standoff" where neither does what the other wants. Sure, but does "having to deal with it" necessarily = "having to identify with it"? There's a lot of stuff I have to depend on in order to survive in a 3D world, and while that may influence the identity I take with me, presumably the bulk of it that's body-related will be left behind with the body. I've also had some experience of everything being interconnected at the energetic level like a web, which you could see either as a single whole or a bunch of interconnected parts IMO. Identity is more or less another way to look at boundaries. Things are connected on many levels including physical, energetic, spiritual, and many more. This idea of seeing it in one way (separate) or another (connected) is on the right track. Doing both or many is also possible. Its all about you changing your perspective rather than any real change in connectedness. As per 'The Matrix', "Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself."

[star]

The whole point of this thread is about waking up and what that means. It seems to have devolved into a debate about how to make a sandwich in the real world. :wink: No one who is awake would debate the need for making adjustments to living in the 3D world. Of course it's necessary. Walter knows how to make a sandwich, and doesn't try to conjure one up just because he ultimately thinks it's an illusion.

Star said:
If your interested in the mystical side energy cultivation will help you get to a point where that sort of information becomes available, and its easier to understand and reach than enlightenement in my opinion.I completely disagree (sorry Star). I've been doing energy work for years, am a Reiki Master/Teacher, a Quantum Touch practitioner, and have been to so many of Robert's energy work workshops (3 live and 1 internet) that I could almost do one myself. At one point, I overdeveloped my energy body to the point that my physical body couldn't keep up, and as a result had an almost 4 hour Samadhi experience that took a year to recover from. I don't think this gave me enlightenment. It certainly gave me a view and a perspective that was mind blowing where I became (or merged with if you like) God and had all knowingness. As awesome as that was, and as awesome as other similar experiences I've had are, I can't say with certainty that they are real. I don't know what they are. Yes, they showed me that life as I know it right now is an illusion, that I am more than I "think" I am. I don't just talk theory, through energy work and meditation I've become my oversoul. I've walked the walk, not just read about it in books. I seem to skip right on past the RTZ (real time zone) and head straight for the higher and highest levels. Godangit, why can't I have just one RTZ experience? :roll: Regardless of what I've been through, I can't get around "the only thing I can know with absolute certainty is that I exist". These OBE experiences have taught me about illusion. But, I still can't know if those experiences, themselves, are illusions. Am I repeating myself? Yes, and I will again. The only thing I can know with absolute certainty is that I exist. The rest are just guesses.

That is confusing! I am staying with that idea, that endurance is the key. I think it was something like: "Keep playing, it never ends" Or as I keep hearing on the forum. "It doesn't matter, I just want it to end." That last statement might be true, but I think it's the shadow side of the deal. Or at least I would try and convince myself that I enjoyed the idea, but then I keep thinking how awesome it would be to take leave back to Nevada and traverse Red Rock Canyon again. Mojave desert, mah fav. I came across this idea that if I keep playing I'll get the answers at some point, but I want to enjoy the game as oppsed to feeling oppressed by it.
I made a friend in a parrallel universe, or whatever they are called, she visits from time to time and is better than myself at that sort of travel. But from what I can tell if I want to get a better understanding of life/other worlds/ myself/ crazy enlightenement stuff, I have to be able to live it, or find a reason for living if that makes sense.
Hmm, if your wondering if something like OBE is realy or not I'd say that its as real as being able to physically poke people while projected, or make changes to that persons energy via the projection. If that helps anyway. What is your enviroment like? Do you live with people who like life, laugh alot, and enjoy your company? It helps to internalize feelings of happiness and life. I have to do it the hard way sometimes.

[ButterflyWoman]

That is confusing!
It's difficult, and in many cases impossible, to accurately or clearly describe understandings that come from a meta point of view. Language is extremely materialistic, and a product of material culture and a material mind. It doesn't lend itself easily to stuff outside of material reality. ;)

[ButterflyWoman]

http://precisionchange.com/2009/04/03/t ... formation/ (http://precisionchange.com/2009/04/03/the-dangers-of-transformation/)

I came across that article, which is about the dangers of spiritual transformation. It reminded me of this thread, so I thought I'd post it.

I also came across a quote, apparently from an interview with Jed McKenna:

if it feels like you’re being skinned alive, if it feels like a prolonged evisceration, if you feel your identity unraveling, if it twists you up physically and drains your health and derails your life, if you feel love dying inside you, if it seems like death would be better, then it’s probably the process of awakening.
I would add, however, that while it can be very difficult, painful, etc., I think a lot depends on your own attitude and the state of your ego. Some people do appear to awaken easily and without undue suffering, just as some women apparently give birth with minimal effort...

[Timotheus]

:D

[Tom]

A little awareness just makes things worse because you see how bad things are and you are still stuck. It is possible to remain at this stage for a very long time.

[Tempestinateapot]

OlderWiser quoted Jed McKenna:
if it feels like you’re being skinned alive, if it feels like a prolonged evisceration, if you feel your identity unraveling, if it twists you up physically and drains your health and derails your life, if you feel love dying inside you, if it seems like death would be better, then it’s probably the process of awakening.This is about awakening during enlightenment. It's about seeing your ego for what it really is...how there's nothing left after you take away all it's props. It's not about after the process, or as I said "beyond enlightnenment". As Tom said, you can get stuck in the process for a very long time. I think the Zen monks who committed suicide were still stuck in the process. Later, McKenna talks about about being "done", meaning you are done with the process. When I started this thread, I wasn't really done. I was still in an anger phase, which would be too long to go into here.

Once you have been through it, and are "done", you realize you can do anything with your life. It's not a depressing thing, it's a freeing thing. To put it another way, I no longer feel guilt, I no longer feel a need to impress anyone, I no longer feel a need to conform to what anyone else says is the way things should be. I have no boundaries between right and wrong. I see the beauty in how the world works, and admire the awful as well as the good. The world has become amazing to me, and not just the "good" parts. The whole idea of creation is amazing. We reach into the nothingness and create experiences constantly. There is no right or wrong about it, it just is. We are gods unto ourselves, but there is no separation between us. Everything we do affects the rest of creation, because there is only One Mind.

I can't speak to what has happened to McKenna, to Tom, or to anyone else. I only know what has happened to me, and the transformation that I have been through. I don't have a barometer any more that tells me what is good and what isn't. It's all good. I see beauty in ugliness. I see beauty in beauty. I see the experiences that people create, and think it's amazing. I see people getting all wrapped up in saving the environment, concerned about every little plastic bag they throw away and where it should go. Good for them! But, I also often think, don't they realize they are trying to hold back the sands of time? The earth is finite. It will not last forever, no matter how many clean cars we create. I see people around me doing whatever they can to stay young. Good for them! But, I also often think, don't they see the futiity? You can't stop aging. Your physical body is going to die. It's crazy, it's wonderful, it's amazing.

[ButterflyWoman]

It's not about after the process, or as I said "beyond enlightnenment".
Fair enough.

I was very taken by Adyashanti's take on the "after awakening" process, though, I must say (in "The End of Your World"). Jed McKenna doesn't actually say a great deal about the "after" part, only invites the reader to "come and see for yourself", which is probably pretty reasonable, given the nature of the subject at hand. Jed's more about kicking you into gear to take that First Step.

As the cliche goes, look out for that First Step... it's a doozy. ;)

[Ouroboros]

It's not about after the process, or as I said "beyond enlightnenment".
Fair enough.

I was very taken by Adyashanti's take on the "after awakening" process, though, I must say (in "The End of Your World"). Jed McKenna doesn't actually say a great deal about the "after" part, only invites the reader to "come and see for yourself", which is probably pretty reasonable, given the nature of the subject at hand. Jed's more about kicking you into gear to take that First Step.

As the cliche goes, look out for that First Step... it's a doozy. ;)

I need those books x.x. I'd love to know what the hell the first step is. :P

[Tempestinateapot]

Well, the first step is to move out of Texas, Ouro. :lol: That was a joke, BTW. I grew up in Texas. :P

[Ouroboros]

Well, the first step is to move out of Texas, Ouro. :lol: That was a joke, BTW. I grew up in Texas. :P

Hehehe...well, moving out of Texas has crossed my mind a time or two, I guarantee it. Usually happens in the long summer months when you step outside and are immediately drenched in sweat because it's so hot and humid. x.x

[wstein]

As the cliché goes, look out for that First Step... it's a doozy. ;) I need those books x.x. I'd love to know what the hell the first step is. :P What you are looking for in NOT in a book. There is no 'first' step. If you want a place to start, try admitting that you are NOT in control.

[ButterflyWoman]

Or, try to find something, ANYthing, that you know is absolutely True without any doubt, without any qualifiers, without any framework or context. Keep at that until you find it. Might take a couple years....

The books are really good, IMHO, but I agree with wstein that you don't really need a book, any book. I took that First Step without any real understanding of what I was asking for, and did most of the hard work (still working, by the way, though I don't want to try to quantify how/where/what I am on some sort of comparative scale or means of measurement) without any help or assistance or guidance. Ultimately, awakening really is like dying. It's something you really have to do alone, just you and the process.

[Ouroboros]

As the cliché goes, look out for that First Step... it's a doozy. ;) I need those books x.x. I'd love to know what the hell the first step is. :P What you are looking for in NOT in a book. There is no 'first' step. If you want a place to start, try admitting that you are NOT in control.

By no control do you mean no free will?


Or, try to find something, ANYthing, that you know is absolutely True without any doubt, without any qualifiers, without any framework or context. Keep at that until you find it. Might take a couple years....

The books are really good, IMHO, but I agree with wstein that you don't really need a book, any book.

I don't know if that'll work for me. Knowing requires some form of context, so stripping away context kind of takes the air out of everything. Once you throw out context, you pretty much have to throw out EVERYTHING. I've read about Jed's Spiritual Autolysis, and the final conclusion really is obvious...but it doesn't do anything for me. Sure, the only thing I can be relatively certain about is that I exist (and I'm not even really sure I CAN be sure about that); but just because I can't be sure that this is all real doesn't end my experience of it as real. Although maybe once again I'm just totally missing the point. :P

[ButterflyWoman]

Knowing requires some form of context, so stripping away context kind of takes the air out of everything. Once you throw out context, you pretty much have to throw out EVERYTHING.
BINGO!

[wstein]

Knowing requires some form of context, so stripping away context kind of takes the air out of everything. Once you throw out context, you pretty much have to throw out EVERYTHING. BINGO! I second that. As the subjects suggests, "Not for Sissies".

[wstein]

If you want a place to start, try admitting that you are NOT in control. By no control do you mean no free will? No. Free will is about your choices. Control is about making things happen (and affecting the world).

[CFTraveler]

Free will is about your choices. Control is about making things happen (and affecting the world). Or feeling you must.

[Ouroboros]

Knowing requires some form of context, so stripping away context kind of takes the air out of everything. Once you throw out context, you pretty much have to throw out EVERYTHING. BINGO! I second that. As the subjects suggests, "Not for Sissies".

Right, I've got no problem with that. It's not the idea that EVERYTHING is an illusion that I'm struggling with; I'm struggling with the fact that I've never experienced non-duality, so I can't be sure that everything IS an illusion. I'm fine with the premise, I just have no way of knowing the premise is true. I haven't experienced a state where there is no context, so context is all I know.

That's why I'm planning on taking meditation up again, in the hopes of fostering a better environment for attracting that realization experience, the experience of non-duality.




If you want a place to start, try admitting that you are NOT in control. By no control do you mean no free will? No. Free will is about your choices. Control is about making things happen (and affecting the world).

That helps clears thing up a little, thank you.

[CFTraveler]

That's why I'm planning on taking meditation up again, in the hopes of fostering a better environment for attracting that realization experience, the experience of non-duality. Ask your Higher Self to help you with this, and then lose all expectation. Don't expect anything immediately, but make sure you make your request clear enough, in meditation or before going to sleep if possible.

[Ouroboros]

That's why I'm planning on taking meditation up again, in the hopes of fostering a better environment for attracting that realization experience, the experience of non-duality. Ask your Higher Self to help you with this, and then lose all expectation. Don't expect anything immediately, but make sure you make your request clear enough, in meditation or before going to sleep if possible.

Sounds good, I'll do that tonight before I go to sleep.

[wstein]

... I'm struggling with the fact that I've never experienced non-duality, so I can't be sure that everything IS an illusion. I'm fine with the premise, I just have no way of knowing the premise is true. I haven't experienced a state where there is no context, so context is all I know.

That's why I'm planning on taking meditation up again, in the hopes of fostering a better environment for attracting that realization experience, the experience of non-duality. I don't know your skill at OBE but an alternative might be to visit your higher self, your divinity, or The Oneness. All of these are written about in other threads. The experience of recognition of sameness (yourself) is not one of duality.

[Ouroboros]

... I'm struggling with the fact that I've never experienced non-duality, so I can't be sure that everything IS an illusion. I'm fine with the premise, I just have no way of knowing the premise is true. I haven't experienced a state where there is no context, so context is all I know.

That's why I'm planning on taking meditation up again, in the hopes of fostering a better environment for attracting that realization experience, the experience of non-duality. I don't know your skill at OBE but an alternative might be to visit your higher self, your divinity, or The Oneness. All of these are written about in other threads. The experience of recognition of sameness (yourself) is not one of duality.

My skill is nonexistent. I have not had a conscious OBE. I've come close to lucidity in dreams, but that's the nearest I've reached the OBE phenomena. This is another reason I want to take up regular meditation; it will aid me in reaching a trance state, from which I can start practicing conscious exit projections. I'm also working on dream lucidity in the hopes of doing some phasing.

In a way, that's sort of an amusing aspect of this all. I've never had any of the experiences most other people have that start to crack at the shell. Probably because my path needed to be different. I don't think I would've been psychologically ready for any of these experiences. I think I had to do a lot of the internal work of coming to grips with the implications of the experiences before the experiences were open to me.

[VioletImagery]

My skill is nonexistent. I have not had a conscious OBE. I've come close to lucidity in dreams, but that's the nearest I've reached the OBE phenomena. This is another reason I want to take up regular meditation; it will aid me in reaching a trance state, from which I can start practicing conscious exit projections. I'm also working on dream lucidity in the hopes of doing some phasing.

In a way, that's sort of an amusing aspect of this all. I've never had any of the experiences most other people have that start to crack at the shell. Probably because my path needed to be different. I don't think I would've been psychologically ready for any of these experiences. I think I had to do a lot of the internal work of coming to grips with the implications of the experiences before the experiences were open to me.

I have never had a conscious OBE either or a lucid dream since only once when I was about 12. I am not even trying to work on achieving these things right now. It's not that I don't have the interest, I just feel like I have to do other things first, especially working with my beliefs. I just wanted to let you know, Ouroboros, that you're not the only one taking a different path.

[ButterflyWoman]

OBE is just one more exploration of the dreamstate world, in my opinion. It's fun, you can learn stuff, it's interesting, but it doesn't lead to awakening any more than lighting incense or dancing naked under the moon will. That's not what spiritual awakening is about. It's not about "experiences", though sometimes experiences can give you glimpses of things that may lead you to wake up.

People confuse "spiritual experiences" with spiritual awakening all the time. I know I did, up until very recently. But they're not the same. OBE is fine, nothing wrong with it at all, but you don't need to do it, any more than you need to grow your own tomatoes. It's good and nice and may be fun, and you can benefit from it, but neither the growing of tomatoes nor OBE will necessarily lead you anywhere near actual awakening.

I'm actually kind of embarrassed now when I look back and thought that all my mystical experiences actually MEANT anything. Fun? Sure. Interesting? You bet! Would I want to keep having them? Sure, why not? But did they actually lead me to any kind of awakening... ? Other than giving glimpses of what MIGHT be possible if I kept trying... no. I see this now. I don't know why I didn't see it before. I guess I just wasn't in a position to see it...

[wstein]

My skill is nonexistent. I have not had a conscious OBE. I've come close to lucidity in dreams, but that's the nearest I've reached the OBE phenomena. This is another reason I want to take up regular meditation; it will aid me in reaching a trance state, from which I can start practicing conscious exit projections. I'm also working on dream lucidity in the hopes of doing some phasing.

In a way, that's sort of an amusing aspect of this all. I've never had any of the experiences most other people have that start to crack at the shell. Probably because my path needed to be different. I don't think I would've been psychologically ready for any of these experiences. I think I had to do a lot of the internal work of coming to grips with the implications of the experiences before the experiences were open to me.

I have never had a conscious OBE either or a lucid dream since only once when I was about 12. I am not even trying to work on achieving these things right now. It's not that I don't have the interest, I just feel like I have to do other things first, especially working with my beliefs. I just wanted to let you know, Ouroboros, that you're not the only one taking a different path. I want to encourage both (all) of you. I definitely took my own path, in my own time, and unfortunately on my own. I desperately wanted a companion or two along the way.
I (and others here) try to offer assistance to others on the same quest, hoping that their journey be less of a struggle than my own. Don't get me wrong, its still a struggle, your struggle, but friends can make it easier.
After struggling alone, I don't always remember to ask for assistance on those occasions where it might be available.
I assure you that none of these mystical experiences are requirements to awakening. There are interesting and can provide insights. Awakening comes from the inside. Its more about breaking out of the box than which side you emerge from.

[Ouroboros]

My skill is nonexistent. I have not had a conscious OBE. I've come close to lucidity in dreams, but that's the nearest I've reached the OBE phenomena. This is another reason I want to take up regular meditation; it will aid me in reaching a trance state, from which I can start practicing conscious exit projections. I'm also working on dream lucidity in the hopes of doing some phasing.

In a way, that's sort of an amusing aspect of this all. I've never had any of the experiences most other people have that start to crack at the shell. Probably because my path needed to be different. I don't think I would've been psychologically ready for any of these experiences. I think I had to do a lot of the internal work of coming to grips with the implications of the experiences before the experiences were open to me.

I have never had a conscious OBE either or a lucid dream since only once when I was about 12. I am not even trying to work on achieving these things right now. It's not that I don't have the interest, I just feel like I have to do other things first, especially working with my beliefs. I just wanted to let you know, Ouroboros, that you're not the only one taking a different path. I want to encourage both (all) of you. I definitely took my own path, in my own time, and unfortunately on my own. I desperately wanted a companion or two along the way.
I (and others here) try to offer assistance to others on the same quest, hoping that their journey be less of a struggle than my own. Don't get me wrong, its still a struggle, your struggle, but friends can make it easier.
After struggling alone, I don't always remember to ask for assistance on those occasions where it might be available.
I assure you that none of these mystical experiences are requirements to awakening. There are interesting and can provide insights. Awakening comes from the inside. Its more about breaking out of the box than which side you emerge from.

Well, I'm certainly glad you're here helping out, along with everyone else. :)

As far as LD or OBE...those are only things I would like to use as a vehicle to bringing me closer to myself, or my HS, to have that non-dual experience I can use as validation. Every time I've heard about awakening stories, there is usually some kind of experience that accompanies the awakening moment, after which a substantial internal change occurs. That's what I'm trying to attract, the moment of change.

[Timotheus]

:D