Two Qi Gong Master: Energy work to the extreme! [Archive] - Astral Dynamics Down-Under Community

AstralVibe

13th February 2007, 10:47 PM

Thanks for sharing the videos. I've seen one of them before, but it was interesting to see again.

John Chang said he learned for about 18 years in the video. The other master said he started learning at a young age, (teenager if I heard right) so I presume it took a while with him as well.

Another place you can check out for learning this kinda thing is the Monroe Institute. If you go through their "Gateway Voyage" on campus program you can then do the "MC2= Manifestation and Creation Squared" on campus program.
http://www.monroeinstitute.com/program.php?program_id=14

Enjoy learning about Chi!
Tigerzen

Hey Tigerzen thanks for that info, I normally don't use this forum much, so thats why I reply so late. Anyway, I didn't know that Monroe Inst was doing PK, that is pretty cool. I will be probably entering it within 6 months, as resource is low right now. This is the thing that I like about sharing information, if you give, you will get back double.

So have you tried this yet? I have this forum which has many article of folks doing these exercise. Here ya go. http://www.psipog.net/home.html
They have many technique and article you can read and try. Most of them are like the Monroe inst, although it might be a whole other thing, as you get hand to hand asistance. And most of the time they transfer some of their energy to you as well.

I will be testing out the ORMUS soon, check this site out for more info, be sure to check out the review. I'll keep most of the forum I go to upto date about the ormus I will be using soon. Alright talk to you later.
http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/index.htm

AstralVibe

P.S. Forgot to mention, I found two other video related to this kind of energy work. check them out, pretty amazing stuff.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SXsFndVCjMk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3JYGqVA9xc4

Aunt Clair

17th February 2007, 05:36 AM

AstralVibe

18th February 2007, 05:50 AM

yeah i remember there is a similar thread already.
Yes it is possible to do miracles with qigong the problem is there are like more than 3000 ++ forms or exercises of QiGong.and the basic ones like microcosmic orbit is almost identical to NEW (RB admited that he created NEW without prior knowledge about qigong, yet he claim NEW to be most advance system, which is not so)QiGong has many functions, some are specific to treat late stage cancers like Zhineng and Guolin Qigong.some are for martial arts purpose like iron shirt qigong.some are for healing etc.
if you are a beginner, maybe u can try chi energy workout for beginners by david carradine. some of the good qigong books are written by mantak chia and BK FrantzisI hope this helps :)
have fun with the wonders of Chi :)

Chi is merely a name for energy . The ancient Asian understandings on the uses of energies thru the human energy body are universal but they have not been readily translated nor understood by an English speaking audience . Robert's work has a foundation in such universal truths but his work is not limited to that . His work is groundbreaking .

and the basic ones like microcosmic orbit is almost identical to NEW (RB admited that he created NEW without prior knowledge about qigong, yet he claim NEW to be most advance system, which is not so)

I think that this statement of yours is rude and inflammatory . It does nothing to teach or share . This is Robert's site , it you do not agree with his methods , then why are you here ? It is so easy to condemn others rather than teach anything new yourself . Lead , follow or get out of the way . Interrupting traffic to quack , quack , quack does nothing to improve the metaphysical understandings conveyed in this forum .

To me, it didn't seem like he was flamming Robert in anyway. He was merely stating his opinioin, whether they were correct or not, only he knows. I really don't think it matters who did it first or better, as we all were, and will be the other race/nationality. I think this petty talk about what nation or race is better or w/e doesn't really matter.

One system working well for certain group doesn't mean its going to work for the other. W/e works for you, is the best, in my opinion. I've tried many method, and most work well for me, I guess I'm highly adaptive. The only thing that hasn't been so easily achieved is the psi wheel, but I guess I havn't really tried it yet.

You are energy, and I am to. You share what you know, I share what I know, and we work together in this enormous world. All for one, and one for all.

The benefit of getting on the spiritual path, along with our main goals, is that everything negative like this, seems so small/insignificant.

AstralVibe

AstralVibe

20th February 2007, 01:04 AM

Two new video I found which is pretty interesting.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3JYGqVA9xc4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SXsFndVCjMk

Enjoy =).

AstralVibe

Korpo

26th February 2007, 02:44 PM

to do miracles with qigong
the problem is there are like more than 3000 ++ forms or exercises of QiGong.
and the basic ones like microcosmic orbit is almost identical to NEW (RB admited that he created NEW without prior knowledge about qigong, yet he claim NEW to be most advance system, which is not so)

Doubly wrong.

First of all electricity or heat generation are features of the biochemistry of your body, so this nothing miraculous. You can train those properties through consistent Qigong work. Bruce Frantzis attributes both properties to one of his inner martial arts teachers, who let students warm themselves with his hands outside in deep winter, and shocked Frantzis unconscious during a fight. Electricity and heat are typical manifestations of Chi, but exposing them in this refined manner requires long, hard, arduous work. In China they say that it takes 30 years to create a master. Sounds true.

NEW and Qigong match only superficially.

The following statements are from the Qigong point of view:

* First of all NEW mixes the Indian Chakra circuit and the Chinese meridian/channel/vessel/dantian system, which Qigong would never.
* Robert's circulation is incomplete and mixes Small and Grand Circulation.
* Robert's circulation only incorporates drawing Energy up from Earth without drawing some down from heaven and is therefore out of balance.
* Robert discourages strongly stimulating through NEW the sexual centers of the human body, which is not discouraged in nearly all Qigong and vital to a lot of advanced practices. Sexual Jing is seen as one of the major sources of human energy, and the "outer kidneys" (= the sexual glands and organs) are of extreme importance.

If you state that NEW and Qigong match you could say as well that all forms of Yoga, Qigong, meditation are the same, which they are - on the most superficial level.

Robert's NEW is an energy system in the making, while the deeper knowledge of the Qigong masters and their expertise, experience and technique (secret or not) derive from thousands of years of Taoist, Buddhist and Shamanistic practise. Bruce's has merit. But it is not the same, neither in scope, or depth, or detail, at least unless he publishes "Energy Work" this year.

I'm intrigued about this new book, as it will present the very own view of Robert on this topic which I am very interested in.

I don't think the former poster wanted to flame Robert, Aunt Claire, and neither do I. :)

Nnonnth

27th February 2007, 04:32 PM

I guess the next step for me is just getting over the fear. Then its time to start exploring.

Korpo I have to ask: do you project?

Robert's work does many things that qigong does not do, for example raises kundalini which is only one way of building the light body but it's a good one.

Robert's is also is a way of preparing the energy body specifially for projection. Qigong masters are not about projection although many Taoists do it - that is something different. 'Qigong' and 'Taoism' are not equivalent terms!

What I think you may not realize is that projection and the pre-projection vibration phase are in themselves a kind of spiritual work, that builds the energy body.

There are many ways of producing the kinds of qigong siddhi that are being shown now, and not all of them have anything to do with qigong. See for example the works of Franz Bardon.

I agree that NEW and qigong are not the same! But you must understand that if they are different, there is really no point in even comparing them. A person would have to be the complete master of both in order to understand what each does.

And also, the systems of Bruce and Frantzis are not the only two systems out there!

WHY OH WHY OH WHY do so many things have to come down to 'my way is best'?

One of the things I love about Robert is his willingness to ignore past separatisms between paths, yet here people are, blithely flailing at each other as usual, ignoring that most important lesson he is trying to teach and not really understanding the consequences of their pride.

Grrrr.... :x

NN

Nnonnth

27th February 2007, 04:33 PM

woops didn't mean to post that quote at the beginning! Sorry NN

CFTraveler

27th February 2007, 04:59 PM

NN wrote:
WHY OH WHY OH WHY do so many things have to come down to 'my way is best'?

One of the things I love about Robert is his willingness to ignore past separatisms between paths, yet here people are, blithely flailing at each other as usual, ignoring that most important lesson he is trying to teach and not really understanding the consequences of their pride.
Thank you.
Couldn't have put it better myself.

I have noticed a tendency of some posters to post criticisms about one way or other for no good reason other than just putting something or someone down. There is no good reason for this, except maybe ego gratification, and not the good kind.

Nnonnth

27th February 2007, 09:01 PM

There is no good reason for this, except maybe ego gratification, and not the good kind.

Thanks for getting me CFT, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels the same way.

Best NN

Korpo

28th February 2007, 09:36 AM

Korpo I have to ask: do you project?

No, I got to the stage of inner projection, with astral noise, etc., and never continued beyond. I got heavy leg twitching from projection attempts and NEW energy work could not fix it. I wanted to know more about what went on inside me, understand the background information, and dug into Chinese/Daoist/Buddhist teachings.

Robert's work does many things that qigong does not do, for example raises kundalini which is only one way of building the light body but it's a good one.

Yeah, I've noticed the Kundalini obsession on this site shared by many, many posters and I simply disagree with them, nothing more. I've read the posts here, I read about Kundalini Syndrome, I read about Robert's forceful Kundalini raising, and I am not simply not convinced this is the way to go for me. It is good for some, and entirely wrong for others. Not all practices match all kinds of kharmic makeups.

I feel my strong disposition for Taoist Water school meditation grows from something deep inside me, and the same may be true for you and Kundalini.

Besides, Robert Bruce's MAP brought me into Taoism. His mixture of the Chakras and the Dantians and the Small and Large Circulation Paths is surely unique, but Mantak Chia's work about the Microcosmic Orbit is one of the view references in his bibliography section, so I took this route to know more.

Robert's is also is a way of preparing the energy body specifially for projection. Qigong masters are not about projection although many Taoists do it - that is something different. 'Qigong' and 'Taoism' are not equivalent terms!

Well, I know, tell me. Taoist religious Qigong and Chinese medical Qigong are still the most-used connotations of the term and is perfectly valid to use the term that, especially since it is perfectly clear from my post that I have a strong empathy for Taoism.

Projection has a role in Taoism, but it is usually not done early on, but after many other practices have been trained. They are simply less in a hurry to do so.

I agree that NEW and qigong are not the same! But you must understand that if they are different, there is really no point in even comparing them. A person would have to be the complete master of both in order to understand what each does.

Was I trying to? No. Read my statements. I was saying: No, you can't compare them. Too many subtle and not so subtle differences and many different basic assumptions.

And also, the systems of Bruce and Frantzis are not the only two systems out there!

No, but what I should I write about? Stuff I don't know? I was referring to the original poster, and I was talking from what I've read, what I've tried, and what I've experienced.

WHY OH WHY OH WHY do so many things have to come down to 'my way is best'?

One of the things I love about Robert is his willingness to ignore past separatisms between paths, yet here people are, blithely flailing at each other as usual, ignoring that most important lesson he is trying to teach and not really understanding the consequences of their pride.

Grrrr.... :x

Actually you are the one ranting around.

It has yet to show whether Robert's way is correct, and if you can simply sample from different schools of thought what you like best. The Kundalini and Hatha Yoga schools, the Fire and Water Taoists, the Zen, Theravada buddhists, etc., all these schools in their more or less forms have already created enlightened individuals. Enlightened individuals have contributed to its practices, writings and philosophies.

Robert is trying out stuff, sometimes ignoring stuff, and very often relying on its own intuition and experience. That is good. But it has a good chance of failure as well. It is good that he is such a courageous individual, and I enjoy reading his stuff, I see that the MAP practices work for what he tries to do.

Stop flaming me for having formed my own opinion. And stop flaming me for simply putting statements into context and telling what's what. NEW is not what we commonly call Qigong. The NEW energy system is not identical to the TCM one. If I get flamed for stating such basic stuff, maybe your attitude is in need of correction, not so much mine. :)

Nnonnth

28th February 2007, 11:39 AM

I read about Kundalini Syndrome, I read about Robert's forceful Kundalini raising, and I am not simply not convinced this is the way to go for me. It is good for some, and entirely wrong for others. Not all practices match all kinds of kharmic makeups. I feel my strong disposition for Taoist Water school meditation grows from something deep inside me, and the same may be true for you and Kundalini.

Well cool! This is more like it - now you are saying what works for you. Now I do understand why you are talking this way, because you are on a site that talks alot (inevitably) about Robert's work whereas you work in an entirely different manner.

All I am suggesting to you is that in that case it is incumbent upon you to make clear that you are suggesting an alternative route rather than claiming a superior one.

The simple fact is, and I know this wouldn't sit well in your character necessarily, but there are some people who prefer the fact that Robert's NEW system is - well, new! That is, with you the fact that something has been going on a long time is evidence of its desirability, whereas for me it is anything but.

When something is new it is still in development and therefore it is impossible to judge where it leads. It is not a 'safe bet' if one is looking for strong guidance. But on the other hand many people here I think are specifically feeling guided towards the new rather than the old - how could they not be, on a site dedicated to Robert's work? I know I am anyhow.

It is all well and good because people like different things. But are you certain when you were writing about taoist techniques you were not saying a little more than 'I like it because it has a longer history'? It sounded very much to me as if you were claiming superiority by virtue of seniority!

We are living in funny times. All the old traditions are coming out of the woodwork but in addition new things are being discovered. If we are not to throw treasures out of the window I believe we must be open-minded about all paths.

I'll tell you what will surprise you! (i hope!). I never use the NEW system, but I do do some Taoist exercises. And the main method I use for tuning my energy body, clearing blocks and changing character, is actually more like Frantzis' Water method than it is like anything Robert teaches. Except that it isn't a water method...

The funny thing - if I had never practiced NEW I would never have discovered this method, which basically involves using the pre-OBE vibrations to raise the energy. This automatically melts blocks just as in Frantzis' idea. Now I hear that, apparently, some guy name of Waldo Vieira is teaching this method. But although it felt so right to me, I actually did not continue using it for a while because I thought since I invented it and it was just little me, there must be something wrong with it!

It wasn't until I met a spirit guide recently who asked my why I gave up this method when it was perfect for me, that I realized I had been a fool about it. I have also been told that it will raise kundalini - but not by force. So we'll see! But I would never have found it if I had been trying to follow a systematic training in a traditional pattern.

There is going to be a ton more stuff like this going on. It is an age of discovery. I think it is vitally important in a time like this to make certain we don't say we know everything already, just because someone tells us so (Buddha would have agreed!). The paths do not all necessarily lead to the same place. What we see in one path can possibly combine with another, or sometimes there may be incompatibilities. The 'immortality' of the taoists is not necessarily the 'enlightenment' of the buddhists, and neither may correspond to western approaches - or they may all neatly meet up.

I like the idea of this site, not as a place which is starting an untried and possibly incorrect system, but simply as a place which is not part of any old tradition and therefore not bound to any old tradition's viewpoint. BTW all the old traditions, East and West, insist that they have mutual incompatibilities.

But would you have thought working with NEW could make a Frantzis-style melting system? Would you have thought that there were other ways to do a 'complete inward melt' than the one Frantzis gives? I wouldn't, until it happened! That's why I consider it important to keep an open mind.

Would you not say that when you write:

Projection has a role in Taoism, but it is usually not done early on, but after many other practices have been trained. They are simply less in a hurry to do so.

... you are saying everyone here is rushing progress, not just for your personal timing, but in principle? After all with all those 'enlightened people' behind it, the seniority of taoism would tend to imply that, no?

Would you not say that when you write:

It has yet to show whether Robert's way is correct, and if you can simply sample from different schools of thought what you like best. The Kundalini and Hatha Yoga schools, the Fire and Water Taoists, the Zen, Theravada buddhists, etc., all these schools in their more or less forms have already created enlightened individuals

... etc., your remarks are not a little discouraging to the many people on this site following his method? Do they not imply a possible universal incorrectness as opposed to merely a personal preference for something else?

You say you were not trying to compare the two, but it sounded to me like you were. It is not a waste of time to develop something new, as if these old enlightened guys had already discovered everything worth discovering... at least to me. Personally I think what we will see during this incarnation is a huge amount more of new stuff going on, taking influences from many places, and discovering things that have never been discovered before. That's why we have the internet and sites like this.

Robert's work, and this new age of spiritual experimentation, are in their infancy, and this is a site that is devoted to the NEW! ( :lol: hur hur). I realize you feel it is a good idea to go with something else, but courageous experimentation is still a good idea and to be applauded in my opinion.

Oh and BTW

His mixture of the Chakras and the Dantians and the Small and Large Circulation Paths is surely unique

Not so! See, for example, Stephen Chang's work. Further, Glenn Morris made the same link. Of course it is a bit unorthodox.

Nice talking with you - I like a man who knows what thinks. I just want to say though that the the barriers between our plane and the others are much less strong than before now and many people are being guided from within rather than just by reading books or having traditional teachers. Not all of them know it yet or are strong in their commitment to themselves, but they need to have open possibility in front of them rather than a list of traditional paths from which to choose.

There's an awful lot of interesting stuff in between these old traditions. From the perspective of a rational 'catalogue of enlightenment techniques', it certainly would make more sense to go with 'something we know works' - but from the perspective of inner inspiration, which is producing the new things and which produced the old, it is another matter.

Sorry to bang on, and sorry if I was testy/flamey.

Best NN

Korpo

28th February 2007, 02:42 PM

Well, Nnonnth, now we are getting somewhere... :) :) :)

It's hard to set a tone or style with your posts, and as my posts are often not necessarily along the lines of others posters, it's easy to disqualify them as flaming or wise-assing. This is (mostly?) not so (some wise-assing seems to be unavoidable ;) ).

I'm in an inner struggle - on the one side, I'm curious and impatient, and the other side erring on the conservative side and cautious.

I tried MAP. It started to make me very nervous. Since I lacked sureness about how to tackle possible problems - which Robert specifically warned about! - so I did what I do often when faced with insufficient information - I broadened my base of knowledge.

I looked up on trancework and studied on altered states and (self) hypnosis. I looked up on breathwork and mind taming and therefore studied meditative practices. I looked up on energy work and studied Qi Gong.

I tried to find alternative or additional information. Robert's work lacked in certain aspects the detail I was craving for, so since then I may have studied 3-4 dozens books and tried maybe a dozen techniques to get a feel for what works for me and what not, or what feels good and what seems to hurt me.

So I can understand that people want something new and exciting, maybe something quicker or perhaps different or just something to try around and play with. I'm the kind of person that wants to know consequences, tries to assess risks, tries to play it safe - timid, you could say.

So for me the empiric chain of evidence of a technique having been used 100s of years is impressive. My argument is not, that therefore it has to be superior. But for anyone trying to make progress while at the same time playing it safe it is something to be valued.

From the posts here I'm well aware that many people are very daring, or seem to fear no consequences. I myself question things. Why do I feel good? Originates it from me, is it spiritual, do I delude myself? Is the pain a sign of a problem, or of the healing process, or a stern warning to stop immediately. I try to tackle one bit at a time, look what it changed, and revert to what worked or to the results I can recognise. This maybe make me the most conservative and rigid poster here, but I'm building a base on which I can solidly verify things for me to avoid delusion and harm. The last person I want to fool me is myself.

But how could I judge things else? Here is an overwhelming wealth, a true plethora of stuff people try. And some post say they have found marvelous stuff - which I often cannot verify. Some dig deeply into areas of expertise I don't understand or am not interested in. Some get hurt.

If I can be of assistance I try. I got "bad luck" myself:
* Zen meditation gave me strong nosebleeds.
* Mantak Chia's sexual Qigong is very powerful, but makes me extremely nervous, agitated. It produced quick results, but at the same time posed the risk of severely hurting myself at any time. This has made me rather cautious about his techniques which I adored at first.
* etc.

I had techniques that were claimed to be perfectly safe fail on me. I read on, and found the claims to be dubious and in total ignorance of the different needs of different people. A lot of techniques are considered not safe, but freely "marketed" on this modern "bazaar" of alternative experiences.

This made me revert to this rather conservative "tried and true" and low-risk stance. I'm not trying to spoil anything for anyone, but if someone seems to have a problem I advise caution. I owe that to my conscience. And I try to cleanly spell out things, and I try to dispel myths, where I can.

At the same time I'm trying to take in the fascinating and unique input from this site and its posters. It's the only place I freely discuss about my practise. I think I can contribute. I do not want to flame someone.

Sometimes I think people that spell out a problem get cheered on - continue regardless of cost or risk. I want to spell out possible ways without saying they should not continue. It's my cautious and responsible nature. Hopefully this makes me no spoilsport! ;) ;) ;)

star

28th February 2007, 03:04 PM

As far as shocking someone, its happened to me before, long distance. It wasen't pleasant.

CFTraveler

28th February 2007, 03:19 PM

Well, I for one an glad you're friends again- :lol:
And please remember that we're all here to learn, and whoever has ideas about protection and caution are welcome to post. That's what we're here for- to learn from and help each other when we have the opportunity.

Nnonnth

28th February 2007, 05:36 PM

Yeah we are getting somewhere and I quite understand. And also, I think you have been very responsible in the way you've approached all this. It's true not everything is safe, but there are also different degrees of unsafety...

But you and I are not so different as you suppose! I think maybe you are not seeing the slightly bigger picture I'm painting - I'll address that. I'm really enjoying this conversation now.

When you write something like this:

So I can understand that people want something new and exciting, maybe something quicker or perhaps different or just something to try around and play with. I'm the kind of person that wants to know consequences, tries to assess risks, tries to play it safe - timid, you could say.

... it makes me aware that I haven't explained myself too well! I don't think you're exactly timid, but I do think that this climate where there are all these 'masters' who know everything can make one afraid to trust one's inner instincts - which trap I did duly fall into myself, so you're no more timid than I am anyhow!

First of all I want to say - look at what's going on at this time in human history.

The American OBE guru William Buhlman did a survey about projection and got thousands of respondents. Most of these it seems didn't even deliberately try for it, it just happened. Some of them loved it, taught their children and went flying every night with them. Some had an instant samadhi (of the kind that traditionally takes a long time to produce). Many others thought they were possessed, evil, dying, etc. Not to mention the 'abductee' thing which I'm sure is related.

These people alone prove that this time in history is special. Things are possible now for the average person with hardly any training that are normally thought of as quite high achievements. We need people like Robert or Buhlman etc. just to help these people off the ground with some kind of grace, never mind enlightenment.

You might think you are not like those people but just hold that thought!

It has taken alot of time for people to realize anything at all about the unseen world. But now, everyone and his/her garden cat can have spirit guides and OBEs.

What this means to me is that this situation is different from before. That does not invalidate old methods of course! But being more in touch generally, as a race, with our higher selves and our inner guidance makes it significantly more likely that, without outside interference, we will be able to do a good deal by experiment alone.

Now here's a cruncher:

I bet you anything you like, if you got back into the pre-OBE vibratory state and held it, and did that for 15 minutes 3 times a day, within a week or two you would start to melt just as in the water method. Only not quite just as in the water method, because there would be no downward movement, and blocks would come away in the order that they choose, rather than in a predetermined motion.

Yes it's that simple! I can't say for certain yet because I had the fully melted state a couple of years back and then lost it, owing to not realizing you have to keep these things up all the time. But in that state you OBE without any effort whatsoever.

Now I don't know if anyone is teaching precisely this, maybe that Waldo Vieira guy is - but he's new as well. I don't even know if it was possible for this to be done before now, just sitting and well - there you are. But these days there is enough collective energy for people to be very naturally charged up.

Which brings me to your own experiences, because if pure zazen gives you a nosebleed there is masses of energy in there already!

I'm not saying try my method - although I do recommend you learn to talk to your guides if you haven't already because they will assist you in recognizing what's right for you. I am saying that I think it would work. And I was wondering how far you have got with the water method because I tried it & my method worked better - for me!. I do have methods for ground of course, and sometimes you need alot of it now, more than ever.

Well so much for that, but there is another side to what you are saying. You are absolutely correct that there is a bazaar of techniques out there and they're not all that great. The question is how are you going to pick? Obviously you can't literally try them all. If you are in touch with your inner intuition that is the best way to find the right path, because something in you already knows what is right.

Now there are plenty of paths that have brought many to high degrees of perfection - but what you didn't mention that I have noticed in my wanderings is how much they all dislike each other! The zen people dislike the tibetans, both of whom mostly don't like the taoists (in actual practice). The western techniques refuse to look at the eastern and vice vera. Etc.

Even Frantzis, bless him, is guilty of this! He certainly thinks Chia's is the wrong way, like you, but the whole idea of naming his stuff the 'water method' was so he could diss the fire method - these categories don't actually exist in taoism! And the fact is that although Chia's original sexual techniques have big problems (due to the general high energy I think) they can be modified and then they start to work better - see Michael Winn's stuff for instance.

The problem with all this in-fighting is that it makes it harder to trust anybody, and to top that off, it even makes it harder to trust oneself because all these gurus can't be right, and they all know more than you!

In this situation it is impossible to develop anything new, which is why (even though not all of his techniques work for me exactly as he writes them) I prefer Robert's attitude, which is, let's just see what there is going on here. And he has got quite far that way. He has also remained an ordinary bloke because that's all he wants to be, without a big tradition he can't be Grand High Poobah anyhow!

There is alot that is going to come of the work of people like him, and I think it will intersect with other traditions as well, but we must, I think, take advantage of the incredible increase in available energy. For example in OBEs I was doing 2 years ago I found it was possible to do energy work whilst out of body. This is a fantastic technique and the thing is anybody could do it, minimum of fuss.

A whole new set of traditions will spring up because of this time period, which is why I say that it isn't the time to look backward. This is not the same as to say we should be playing superficially, on the contrary! This is a time to get deeply into oneself and what one really feels, because from that extraordinary things can come.

It is not just that people want something quicker, it is that whatever you are doing is going to go quicker whether you want it or not! The game has changed a little. Similarly Robert's work with Negs is important because the new conditions are empowering them also. People are getting hurt by them who before would have been immune.

So again, I don't think that you are conservative exactly. What I think is that you haven't quite got where you want yet, and you are thinking that the techniques that didn't work for you can't be exactly perfect - this is true! But although you may have found what seems a safe way, is it then right to say that no-one else's experiments are safe?

What I am willing to bet is that whatever you do it will end up being fairly intense at the beginning.

The more I work the more I find. Some has been found before, some appears new. It's important to me to keep everyone in the game and playing. So don't be too certain, especially if it's only from reading, about where all this is heading and how and why....

Good luck and God Speed - or Tao Slowness if you prefer!

Best NN

Korpo

28th February 2007, 08:26 PM

Now there are plenty of paths that have brought many to high degrees of perfection - but what you didn't mention that I have noticed in my wanderings is how much they all dislike each other! The zen people dislike the tibetans, both of whom mostly don't like the taoists (in actual practice). The western techniques refuse to look at the eastern and vice vera. Etc.

Even Frantzis, bless him, is guilty of this! He certainly thinks Chia's is the wrong way, like you, but the whole idea of naming his stuff the 'water method' was so he could diss the fire method - these categories don't actually exist in taoism! And the fact is that although Chia's original sexual techniques have big problems (due to the general high energy I think) they can be modified and then they start to work better - see Michael Winn's stuff for instance.

The problem with all this in-fighting is that it makes it harder to trust anybody, and to top that off, it even makes it harder to trust oneself because all these gurus can't be right, and they all know more than you!

Just time for a quick comment now, but let me say this:
Boy, did you make laugh! (in a GOOD way!) :)
I feel like this since long. I noticed all this original gansta/old school/new vibe/fire kids on the block quite for some time. ;)

I simply chose the one that appealed most, and am building on that.

BTW, I strongly abhor "masters" of any kind. I have both a strong tendency to rebel against authorities and a wish to "just get along". This is one of the reasons I am rather glad to live in a time where I can pick a book from a shelf and get into what has been secret for centuries and can figure out my own truth and do comparisons and try stuff.

Buhlman, Monroe, Bruce, Yang, Chia, Frantzis, etc. - they have found their place on my bookshelves. Even if I do Frantzis practices every day, I still cross-read. I'm allow my mind to sample stuff freely, I'm just restrictive in what I practise, it is simply too much and too short time. :)

You are correct in another way - whatever technique I apply I have pretty soon a painful incident. I have strong blocks, and have to be pretty careful to apply good technique to get them cleared. Maybe I got good Chi flow, and this quickly builds pressure on my blockages, or I have simply pretty strong issues, I don't know.

It would be nice to know why we seem to live in such "interesting times". :)

Nnonnth

28th February 2007, 08:45 PM

Right on! Yeah you and I are similar. I also have to pound away at whatever it is I come up with for months, and have strong blocks too.

As for:

It would be nice to know why we seem to live in such "interesting times".

I think it's something to do with this: http://www.tomkenyon.com/hathors/hathors3.html

But that's a whole nother thread.

Best NN

Korpo

28th February 2007, 09:25 PM

Small side note:

I know Frantzis has at times seems to make comments that are heavily predisposed against the fire school (be that differentiation artifical or not). I know from reading "Relaxing into your Being" that he is not completely against it.

His teacher, which clearly he is rather attached to, taught two disciples as exclusive students in the second half of the 20th century. The other one introduced him to his teacher. Him he taught fire techniques, while Frantzis he taught Water techniques, according to what was most missing in that person's inner makeup.

Furthermore Frantzis freely speaks about the many techniques he has sampled, and what harm ill consideration on his behalf sometimes these have brought. This becomes rather clear from "Opening Energy Gates" where he describes how he used strongly vibrating Chi techniques to break bones, and began to become paranoid and delusional.

In "The Great Stillness" he describes at the point of where this Great Stillness is attained that the practitioner is properly prepared, in body, mind and spirit, to do all the Fire training without risk, the same goes for Inner Alchemy and so on. So his methods do no preclude others, and he gives hints how to combine them with Yoga, and stuff.

He still is a disser. Just not the worst there is! ;) ;) ;)

Tempestinateapot

28th February 2007, 10:15 PM

Has it occurred to anyone that you are all correct? It's the experience that's valued. Not the rightness or wrongness of it. No matter how experienced you are in any form of energy work, no matter how much you are in love with that form, it ultimately doesn't matter. Did the Source appear to anybody and say, "This form of energy work is the only one that is sanctioned and has My seal of approval"? See, the Source has this giant stamp made of pure gold and energetically stamps certain practices. Of course, you have to be a master before you can see this stamp. And, you have to have found the magical glasses that allow you to see this stamp. And, when you do that, this big rainbow colored balloon grows out of your a$$ that only the super-duper masters can see. Then, you get invited to the super-duper masters' honorary lunch.

Sorry, that's what these conversations sound like to me. :D Different strokes for different folks. All experiences are valued. Making yourself a master in one, kind of limits you in experiences. But, if that winds your clock, that's what winds your clock, and you ought to go for it. But, claiming anything is better than any other is just pure ego talking. Nuttin' else. Just puredy, ol' ego. And, I don't mean the egotistical ego. I mean the one that creates the illusion that anything is better than anything else.

CFTraveler

28th February 2007, 10:55 PM

*Watches balloons fly away*
:mrgreen:

Nnonnth

1st March 2007, 12:18 AM

Hey Korpo -

Yeah you're right, Frantzis is fairly gentlemanly about the whole thing at least. I haven't actually read 'Opening Energy Gates' and I don't recall having known before about the other student learning fire method.

And Tiatp:

This is what I was saying myself! Eg with my now-infamous-and-much-regretted:

WHY OH WHY OH WHY do so many things have to come down to 'my way is best'?

... etc.

The rest of this conversation to me has been about how, when traditions go big, they do kind of go inflexible too as far as including the new and different is concerned. They think they have that stamp you're talking about. That's why Robert is so cool to me, he doesn't really follow anyone.

Best to all, NN

Korpo

1st March 2007, 01:11 PM

Well, I try to sample from many traditions, and was actually inspired towards this by Robert Bruce. My starting point was MAP, and then I went exploring.

I find it a sad state that so many movements trying to explore Universal Consciousness and finding our common source and interlink do rival each other so strongly, and - oh, the irony! - isolate themselves from others.

Historically this is understandable - you cannot transfer knowledge over hundreds and thousands of years when everyone is intermixing at will. Still they intermingle, for example in China. But not at all times, and sometimes these exchanges are very far in the past.

In some respects its like picking your favorite flavour, but Goleman wrote it in its comparative book the "The Meditative Mind" that while the goal of many meditative traditions are remarkably similar, and many techniques as well, some develop skills others don't. His example was meditative dancing, which improved motoric skills in practitioners strongly, while sitting meditators did not improve in that respect.

Nnonnth, you have (re-)inspired me to put MAP and OBE practise back on my agenda, but I do not know exactly when. Since my energy work is currently paying off very well, with unblocking of more and more channels I will look into how I can reconcile that with NEW and the MAP program. :)

Nnonnth

1st March 2007, 02:51 PM

Right on! 8)

Nnonnth, you have (re-)inspired me to put MAP and OBE practise back on my agenda, but I do not know exactly when. Since my energy work is currently paying off very well, with unblocking of more and more channels I will look into how I can reconcile that with NEW and the MAP program. :)

It's funny you should mention this. I think we are all now desperately waiting for Robert's next book on energy work (no pressure Mr Bruce!). I am suddenly waiting for it more than ever since I read this, in the sticky he wrote at the top of the kundalini page here in these forums:

I may have a way to safely train people using something new. This is
experimental but it may work. Kundalini can be raised in the pre OBE
vibrational state. I've done this and its quite easy. If one does not need
to raise kundalini fully first, it may be possible to train people to
cleanse and condition the kundalini snake pathway with a lower level of
energy than what normally occurs during the main event.

Now this is precisely and to the letter what I've been trying to do. And as I say it can be used to get rid of block and all sorts of things, very similiar to Water Method.

And what's more, I bet some puzzled people out there would love to know that this is possible, just like me, having discovered it and given it up because no book talks about it. That's why we all need to keep talking this way, it's what this age of Aquarius is all about, Aquarius ruled by Uranus. Uranus thinking is what gave us the internet. (Ignore that bit if you don't like it!)

What this means I think is by no means give up on what you're doing esp. if you have got the water method working. Suddenly you see you are not just trying to work on your energy, you are performing valuable work in trying to match up techniques that could be of great use to thousands of people and to the earth in general.

I know from experience that if I get this completely melted clarity I would be able to slip out of my body with almost no vibrations or difficulty of any kind. And since the complete melt is the idea of the water method this would be bound to be the result following that too. SO your OBE skills if desired will increase from water method. As you say yoga and more conscious/'fire method' taoist alchemy can follow a complete melt with nothing standing in their way - likewise, so can a perfect OBE technique and you would not have any of the problems normally associated with a 1st-time OBE. Like Robert I can't prove any of this yet but I strongly suspect it.

The only thing that I think is.... well, interesting here is the watery aspect of the water method, and here I have to clarify something I mentioned before. I said there was nothing 'watery' about this method, what I meant was that it is nonsense to call anything a water method alchemically speaking if it involves melting (kidey-)ice, since the melting requires fire. It is precisely the mind's fire that melts the water in this method.

However, it now occurs to me that there is something else that does in fact make it a water method, and that is the downward direction. This is indeed water, flowing down=water just as strong upward=fire (but not necessarily strong formal mental control as Frantzis is implying with the name of the method).

I would be very interested in how imposing a definite down direction on the melting (which I don't do) would impact it. Obviously more grounded emotions, but OBE requires fire+air, will it come naturally or will something else be required? The way I am doing it the final result is centre, no direction at all. Akasha if you like.

Korpo you see how from just one little exchange already things are linking up that otherwise wouldn't be seen! Robert after all doesn't do Frantzis' method at all. Let's keep in touch and see where we get from all this, it will snowball if we let it. Like I say I am convinced this is what this age of humanity is all about, and now I believe it all the more.

best NN

Tempestinateapot

1st March 2007, 07:41 PM

I think it's great to share practices and what's worked for you, people you've read about, or people you know. But, you're still missing the point. If there was only one way to make certain things occur, then why wouldn't everybody being doing that one thing? Instead, only small groups practice certain methods. Did it ever occur to you (universal you) that certain things didn't happen with some methods because of the limited beliefs of those using it?

Example...I had a 3 and a half hour samadhi experience with nothing more than an intention to OBE and used the rope method. My first conscious OBE happened merely with lying down and saying to myself, "I can leave my body". Boom, 2 seconds later I'm vibrating like a jackhammer, a train is running through my ears, and lift off. So, because it worked for me, I could start a whole movement and be a guru. My method, which has the seal of approval, from Source, no less, to samadhi is to imagine climbing a rope. Of course, I'm being sarcastic, but someone who read this could very well replicate my experience, while others would say, "nope, didn't work for me...now this other method over here....it's the real one".

If something is working for you, personally, I'd stay with it, and possibly try other methods. If nothing is working, try lots of methods. Share what you've experienced, but don't be fooled by people who say you can only have certain experiences by doing something one way. There may be a method that works better for a lot more people, but it's not a given it's going to work for everyone.

Nnonnth

1st March 2007, 08:02 PM

I think it's great to share practices and what's worked for you, people you've read about, or people you know. But, you're still missing the point.

With due respect I think you're the one who is missing the point. This is not a conversation at all about what the 'one best way' is and no-one here is trying to find out what is the 'true way' as far as I know.

When you say this:

If something is working for you, personally, I'd stay with it, and possibly try other methods. If nothing is working, try lots of methods. Share what you've experienced, but don't be fooled by people who say you can only have certain experiences by doing something one way. There may be a method that works better for a lot more people, but it's not a given it's going to work for everyone.

You are re-iterating something that has already been said by both Korpo and myself!

As it happens both Korpo and I have had similar experiences with published methods but have now gone two different ways towards an attempt to resolving those difficulties - this is interesting and worth reporting on. I like doing it... erm... ok?

The rest of this conversation, as I said before, is about how large organizations start to believe there is one true way, and in the process stifle other possibilities. It is a very common occurrence. This is just about sharing information, I like to know these things. As it happens alot of people had the experience you had with the rope technique - doesn't it interest you that this is the case?

Nobody is saying that this or that is the real technique. What I am discussing quite happily with Korpo :) is what happens as a result of certain techniques and what the possible links between them are. This is how people can get further from where they are, I believe - by talking about what they are doing! Isn't that the whole point of this board?

I already agree with everything you say, and have said so several times already, so I don't understand why you say I don't get the point! You say:

If there was only one way to make certain things occur, then why wouldn't everybody being doing that one thing?

... which is fair enough!

But I don't see the relevance of it because not ever have I said that there is only one way to make anything occur! So why keep putting forth an argument that no-one is disagreeing with?

Could you somehow explain differently perhaps?

Best NN

Tempestinateapot

1st March 2007, 10:22 PM

I'm not so much criticizing what the two of you are talking about as I am trying to make it clear to others who might be reading that there are a lot of roads to the same destination. I don't remember who said it, or which post it was in, but there was something about one technique that allowed one to go further than another. That was what prompted me to post. It helps sometimes to remember that while the conversation may appear to be just two people, there are sometimes a lot more who are reading it. So, it's not really just a conversation between the two of you.

No, I've never heard anyone ever say they reached samadhi from the OBE method of rope climbing. But, then I'm not aware of a lot of things. :lol: Carry on. :D

star

1st March 2007, 10:25 PM

I really think Vase Breathing is a good one. The problem is I haven't found really good instructions online for it. The best description has been in my book.

Most others I saw over complicated things.

Nnonnth

1st March 2007, 10:51 PM

Tiatp -

No, I've never heard anyone ever say they reached samadhi from the OBE method of rope climbing

Specifically from rope climbing I am not aware of any cases myself! But I did quote three cases back to MalevolenT of people whose first OBE resulted in the kind of samadhi experience you had. Were there differences? I don't know! That's why we're talking about it!

Star -

I really think Vase Breathing is a good one. The problem is I haven't found really good instructions online for it. The best description has been in my book.

I don't know what that is! Is it similar to 9-bottle breath? And which book are you reading?

Also, can you tell what were the circumstances of your long-distance electro-shock episode?

Best and love to all, NN

star

1st March 2007, 11:14 PM

I don't know what that is! Is it similar to 9-bottle breath? And which book are you reading?

Also, can you tell what were the circumstances of your long-distance electro-shock episode?

You push out your belly and execute the Mulbandha. (vase) The book is "The Bliss of Inner Fire" *Lama Leshe* (If I spelled it correctly.)

--------------
I was sending Reiki to someone in a chat room. Another person locked on to that flow and sent some sort of attack down the line, I nearly fell out of my chair.

Its really was a wierd episode.

star

1st March 2007, 11:17 PM

oh, heh, i also confronted her on MSN about it. She told me that she was only sending love. Then I'd start to vibrate like I was being attacked.

:)

Nnonnth

1st March 2007, 11:25 PM

She told me that she was only sending love. Then I'd start to vibrate like I was being attacked.

Hmm, well you always hurt the one you love, right?

Sometimes unfiltered love can be a bit overpowering, but it was probably ineptitude rather than malice I expect.

Best NN

star

1st March 2007, 11:27 PM

That would be weird. Even Shaktipat doesn't effect me that strongly.

Nnonnth

2nd March 2007, 11:34 AM

That would be weird. Even Shaktipat doesn't effect me that strongly.

Then I really have no idea! But are you sure you would literally describe it as a (physical plane) electrical shock?

NN

Korpo

2nd March 2007, 12:48 PM

BTW, star, I like your sig. I feel like this. I'm a studied computer scientist, but the first thing my soul is in is working with the energy body. This makes for some interesting problems - since it is a thing I value highly in my life, I am much more susceptible to fears regarding it. I don't want to "mess up" what I like most. This makes it actually harder for me than other stuff I care a bit less about. :)

About the Water method: It's name is mostly derived from analogy. While the Fire method tries to achieve the goals of the practitioner, possibly by force, and by envisioning and visualising that result, and selectively training what is most useful for that goal, and neglecting other stuff, the Water Method tends more towards letting things happen when they are ready to happen. This does not necessarily pertain to applied technique, but I have an example:

A classic Neo-Taoist technique is the Small Circulation. Usually several blocked up places have to be worked through to get the path ready for the circulation, in most people this include the Three Gates. Many practitioners will force this cleanup by pressuring their energy towards those blocks, and since they are all on the upward path on the spine, this is additionally associated with Fire beyond the Force = Fire comparison.

Now a water practitioner would start out with resolving blocks downward. Furthermore he will treat all blocks similar, and maybe the central, left and right main channels special. And the dissolving technique will apply awareness to a block, but not pressure, or an especially narrow focus, but let awareness surround and permeat the blockage, weaken it, what is described as "ice to water". The blockage then gets flowing "by itself", not by force. Additionally the downward current is associated with water.

Both methods work. when the Fire practitioner removed the blockages in the Small Circulation path, he will circulate Chi along this path, and this will, if abundant enough, unblock the 12 primary channels branching of the two vessels, and this will cascase sooner or later in an unblocked torso, which can be extended into Grand Circulation and become an unblocked whole body. The Water method will naturally aim for the latter directly. The end result aimed for is the same.

Depending on your actual mode of practise may be riskier. When you first collect abundant Chi, and then try to force upon the circulation path, you may trigger a heart attack when matching a strong, upward Chi flow with an (mostly) unprepared path and a possibly blockage near the heart. This was the usual, traditional practise. Nowadays it has been improved, Small Circulation is taught earlier, it's not as risky. The Water method is potentially slower, but considered safer. It prepares paths for increased energy movement right from the start, and teaches skills for neutralising a too big energy movement, which can harm nerves and body.

But the end result is the same, and can be reached by many practices, including NEW, especially if you apply NEW's basic techniques to all of the energy body.

But, tiatp mentioned it, I said there are skills trained in some skills not present in others and vice versa, and this is true. The movement skills of the T'ai Chi or Ba Gua practitioner or a Dancing Dervish are not obtained by the sitting Zen monk. While the spiritual goal they are after is the same, different secondary (?) skills are available along the path that differ from school to school.

Another example: It is said that during their training Buddhist concentration focus meditators develop different personal styles, awareness skills and traits than the Insight/Awareness. meditators.

It is a matter of personal preference: The Taoists offer you the ways of a healer, a fighter or a spiritual individual, in all possible combinations. Zen meditation can be combined with martial arts to enhance skill, but the practises of the Taoist sects and Shaolin are most closely brought into relation to martial arts. Other schools, especially in India, have no such aspect. You could even view it as detour or waste of effort to obtain such skills, but to those Chinese schools it's a worthwhile goal. This does not make one better than another. It just makes them - well, different! ;)

Not all meditators and practitioners of all schools or traditions of spiritual work have the same practise or view of life or way of living. Some have monasteries, some not. Today we live with the problem that we need to reconcile the need to make a living, our agitated times, the plethora of available methods, the abundance of true and false teachers, and this reflects in our practise. Unlike ancient Taoist master I have no option to seek seclusion on a mountain, I have to deal with my life in an overcrowded world with less and less space for the individual to freely get in touch with nature and/or himself. So it is natural we all have to adapt in different ways what the ancient times brought us.

It is at the same time understandable that the individuals who invested the necessary time and money to train the old methods to perfection try to do their utmost to preserve them in purity. Whether we match this philosophy is again a matter of everyone's personal preference.

I find it a great gift that the book that started me on this path of actual practise has been MAP. RB's open stance allowed me to consider several methods and traditions, and if I wind up with one I don't like I still know there's more behind the horizon. Other authors and teachers may not have had the same open mind and the same effect on me. ;)

But another thing that intrigues me: Yes, we see a surge in the perception of certain phenomena, like UFOs, and maybe a rise in OBE activity (perhaps we didn't know about them before, or people thought of them as works of God and the devil), but I wonder whether today more enlightened humans walk the earth than let's say at the time of the Gautama Buddha. If the energy potential is increasing and therefore it is easier today for people to advance in their practises than maybe 500 years ago, shouldn't we have many more people that found enlightenment? I don't think anyone is teaching with an "efficiency" as the Buddha did today - "churning out" 500 Arhats in his lifetime (which in turn assembled and wrote down all his words after his death). If we live in an age of increased potential, shouldn't it boost many other practitioners, and increase the "enlightenment crowd" quickly? Or does it only enhance certain things, or let go different things out of balance - making some (OBE?) easier, others harder (neg defense ?) and leaving others unchanged (enlightenment meditation?)? I don't know. What do you all think?

Nnonnth

2nd March 2007, 01:30 PM

Korpo I think you're making the subject matter alot bigger yet!

Briefly, I know what you are saying re water and fire methods. However from my personal point of view one must distinguish clearly between water and fire, yin and yang.

On the one hand is the question of directions. Down is definitely water and up is definitely fire.

On the other is the question of control or forcing. It is said, in my opinion wrongly, that more control and forcing is fire. It's not. This is being said now and as far as I know Frantzis started it. The control/forcing thing is no more fire than water, nor is releasing of control.

The 'letting things be' is not a water method. It is a neutral method, to do this you remain neutral. If you then add a downward direction it becomes a water method but this is not necessarily the case with an 'allowing the unblocking' idea. For example I too force nothing and 'allow the unblocking'. This in my case tends towards neutrality and not downward.

These are misuses of traditional alchemical terms in my opinion.

Kundalini fire moves upward and is definitely fire. But it doesn't have to be forced! Some would regard Robert's method as forcing, but sometimes kundalini rises spontaneously and when it does, it still rises! So it is still fire.

(However there is also a water kundalini appearing now. Ask aunt clair about that.)

So fire and water has nothing to do with forcing or with letting go. It is a misnomer.

Briefly on the rest of what you said:

I do not think that your statement 'the end result is the same' is necessarily true either! You think that the people are all working towards the same goal - I do not think it is so simple. I won't argue too much now because the thread is too unwieldy... there's alot more I want to bring in from Western traditions but I will save that for another time.

When you say 'the spiritual goal they are after is the same" I fundamentally disagree on a personal level, and on an objective one I would say you'd have to do alot of research before you could say definitely that there is one single goal of 'enlightenment', which all paths aim at. No more than I think there is one single method do I think that there is one single goal.

This in turn means that I do not necessarily agree that Buddha was more 'efficient'. If there is a definite way and a definite goal, and the whole thing is linear, that might be true. I don't see that at all. He had a definite way and goal, and he taught this to others and it was very advanced. I do not think it was the ultimate though, no not at all. I think we are all spiritual children as yet and the ultimate may not have been so much as glimpsed yet, by anyone.

This is another reason why I believe experiment to be so necessary. When people start talking about 'enlightenment', if they haven't actually achieved it, they turn a little into Buddhists! But I'm not a Buddhist, I'm no-path. Or Nnonnth-path.

On this I don't expect all to agree by any means, I simply offer it up as one possible and internally coherent point of view, which I happen to hold. We may pre-judge endings as 'something like Buddhist enlightenment' or as any number of other things. I choose not to.

The current high-energy phenomena, and consquent involuntary OBEs, premature kundalini spikes, sudden samadhis, whatever, are a different phenomenon. Did you read the link about it I posted? Anyway I believe it is because changes are happening to the whole planet and solar system and I believe the mayans were right in that these changes will climax in 2012 or so. It is not mastery that is happening, it is simply lots and lots more energy, and people are trying to convert it into something useful as best they can - that is, some are! The rest are wasting it on war etc.

As they try to convert, ground, make sense of what is happening to them, it is best to keep an open mind on methods - but on this I already know that you agree.

Just my thoughts! :)

NN

Korpo

2nd March 2007, 03:13 PM

Briefly, I know what you are saying re water and fire methods. However from my personal point of view one must distinguish clearly between water and fire, yin and yang.

On the one hand is the question of directions. Down is definitely water and up is definitely fire.

On the other is the question of control or forcing. It is said, in my opinion wrongly, that more control and forcing is fire. It's not. This is being said now and as far as I know Frantzis started it. The control/forcing thing is no more fire than water, nor is releasing of control.

The 'letting things be' is not a water method. It is a neutral method, to do this you remain neutral. If you then add a downward direction it becomes a water method but this is not necessarily the case with an 'allowing the unblocking' idea. For example I too force nothing and 'allow the unblocking'. This in my case tends towards neutrality and not downward.

These are misuses of traditional alchemical terms in my opinion.

I don't think so. Frantzis clearly states that Fire/Water is an analogy, and that the Water school tries to stick closer to the original teachings of Lao Tse. Why the Fire is school is named like that - I don't know maybe just to put both in a contrast. But true to the five element theory and the ying/yang theory opposites do not exclude another, but can influence or even strengthen one another. They simply denote nothing more than a difference. And there is one.

I don't think because we use the terms Fire/Water in alchemy we may not longer use them. Taoists use them anywhere - it doesn't damage the term to use it in the matter of use of force/acceptance and going with the flow. It may seem that neutralising is taking place, but to "cancel out" a blockage you need to pair it with something that melts and cancels it. The end-result is neutral, but the way to go is make it flow first, and then neutralise it. I do not think this usage of the term does damage to the terms of Kan and Li, especially we in the West can use such terms to refer specifically to Alchemist connotations. Since it still requires concentrated effort to do the technique, but the way to go is rather different (I learned through pain ;) ), I don't think this is a misnomer. :)

On another note: Are you saying, you don't have the long-term goal of enlightenment, or any similar term denoting a spiritual maturing that allows a clear, calm mental state to persist after attaining it? Then what motivates you? Curiosity alone? To what end? Yes, you will know, but what will you accomplish with that knowledge? I'm curious to know.

I myself simply use the term to define a goal for myself - a time when I am no longer ruled by things or attachment to things, and when I will be in control of myself, and my perception is not clouded by selfish and delusional distortions.

Nnonnth

2nd March 2007, 04:56 PM

Korpo - let's leave the fire/water thing. I know what you think and you know what I think! It really doesn't matter who's right...

I think this:

you don't have the long-term goal of enlightenment, or any similar term denoting a spiritual maturing that allows a clear, calm mental state to persist after attaining it?... I myself simply use the term to define a goal for myself - a time when I am no longer ruled by things or attachment to things, and when I will be in control of myself, and my perception is not clouded by selfish and delusional distortions.

... is far more interesting!

If you are asking me personally, I have no defined long-term goal whatsoever. There is a feeling I keep inside me and when I lose the feeling I know I have lost the goal - apart from that, nothing.

You see, you say "enlightenment or any similar term", and that you use the term to 'define a goal for yourself' - well and good! I must point out that you are using purely Buddhist terminology in so doing however!

Meanwhile, what I have experienced, never mind read, leads me to a very different conclusion...

I believe the various stages of Buddhist 'enlightenment' have a specific meaning within Buddhist systems, since I don't use a Buddhist system I don't worry about 'enlightenment' personally.

Now I note you use the term in a personal manner. That's all well and good but it has become the norm. And I really am not convinced that most people who say it have any idea what they are talking about! Since I don't know what it is, how can I try to reach it?

The goal you are talking about may or may not be enlightenment as far as I am concerned - is enlightenment not supposed to be the 'ultimate'? Your goal would in Bardon's practice be well fulfilled before even 'samadhi' was reached, never mind enlightenment!

Ah what the hey, this thread is already 8 miles long, why not try to see if I can define further by examples?

Take two masters, one a Zen Buddhist and one a Taoist. They are both around 11th-13th centuries - perhaps someone else can provide dates for me.

The Zen guy I even forget his name, but his story is famous. He announces to his students that he is about to die. They gather round and he tells them a poem. One of the students says: "Master, to complete the poem form you need one line more." At which time the master simply roars like a lion. His body collapses and his soul goes - we know not where. But for sure he was enlightened by Zen standards. So we presume he has joined with spirit in some celestial way.

Meanwhile the Taoist, I do remember his name - Ge Hong. A similar tale - he is about to die and calls in his student. Ge Hong was a Taoist alchemist, equally adept with both lab work and interior work. The story ends differently however. At the last moment Ge Hong sends his student to fetch something. When the student returns, Ge Hong has died and his body has vanished. There remains only an indescribably beautiful fragrance, and golden glow that last three days.

Each of these achieved some kind of ultimate by their own standards, this is certain. Equally certain is that it was not the same ultimate. Until the Buddhists arrived in China, Taoists did not talk of 'enlightenment' but 'immortality'.

It seems to me that both of these are technical terms for very high achievements, not vague descriptions. They are terms used within systems. I'm not in the systems, so I don't use the terms. Robert has recently said that kundalini as he experiences it may lead to some kind of immortality - I never heard a Buddhist say that.

I could mention 100 things!

There is a famous story of a Buddhist and a Taoist who were friends. They went astral projecting together. They went to the same park, a famous park in China. They both picked a flower there. When they returned, the Buddhist could not find his flower but the Taoist put his in a vase.

Conclusions: The Taoists place more emphasis on the etheric than the Buddhists.

We have not even talked about western orders. They are more secretive. The first thing that comes into my head is that Dion Fortune, the famous western magician, was said to be able to fully disappear (body included) into other planes. However I don't quite trust that since those watching might not have been advanced enough to see a part that remained.

However, I do trust that her teacher, whose name escapes me, by her account lost so much of his body weight when he projected that he weighed no more than a small child. Also, his projected double's weight could be felt if it sat on you. Was he 'enlightened'? I don't know and I don't know of anyone qualified to judge, even if the judegment had a chance of being meaningful which I don't believe it does.

The Western alchemists all sought something called the 'Philosopher's Stone'. Like 'enlightenment' or 'immortality' it is a term of ultimate achievement, but it has many grades like them too. Many, many 'Hermetic Philosophers' are said to have achieved it. Were they 'enlightened'? 'Immortal'? Had Buddha made the Philosopher's Stone? I dunno!

If you want more examples (or citations for the above examples!) I can give them. But I'll tell you this much - the 'term' enlightenment has been bandied about forever by unenlightened people. One could call this good marketing by Buddhism! - but whatever. I have no idea what it is. So how can I pursue it?

Plus, don't the Zen people always say that wanting enlightenment is a great mistake?

Best NN

Korpo

5th March 2007, 12:58 PM

Plus, don't the Zen people always say that wanting enlightenment is a great mistake?
Best NN

Yeah, but what the Zen people say is in itself a mystery, so why take it literal? ;)

One book that is very interesting if you want more accounts like that of the magician you mentioned is "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot. The anecdotes and stories he relates as examples suggest that a lot of things are possible we don't even think about. Especially when concerned to religious mystics, even in modern times. What makes this account intriguing is the quality of his cited witnesses. Each is either a well-known figure (but maybe the story is not) or one or several witnesses of a story have an academic grade, and quite a lot are doctors of their disciplines. It's really a worthy read.

One thing that seems to be very unclear about Buddhism is the goal beyond "breaking the cycle of reincarnation". So there is a point beyond enlightenment there. Taoists are somewhat clearer about that, as their practises try to conceive and mature "a spiritual embryo" as a host in which the spirit can reside eternally - non-physical immortality.

There seem to be similarities and overlappings of (at least before now) secret teachings relating to such concepts, as the books describing such training were handed down by the Buddhists (Bone Marrow/Brain Cleansing and Muscle/Tendon Changing by the monk Da Mo), but the techniques used therein easily translate to Taoist techniques as well.

The final goal beyond enlightenment in this context as I saw it defined was the re-merge with the Tao, but it is hard to keep track which tradition has what aim and whether the end results obtained by some small circle secret teachings are really the ones longed for by a sect or group as a whole.

I agree, the term "enlightenment" is a tricky one.

Nnonnth

5th March 2007, 01:32 PM

I agree very much with what you are saying there!

It certainly is the case that the 'final goal' is different for many, which is the point I was making.

On this:

One thing that seems to be very unclear about Buddhism is the goal beyond "breaking the cycle of reincarnation".

... I think it is very interesting to read people like Iamblichus, the pagan neoplatonist philosopher. For example in 'Theurgy and the Soul', his excellent study of Iamblichus, Gregory Shaw writes:

... Iamblichus specifically faults the view of those who defined catharsis as a withdrawal from matter. He says: "Some give greater value to separation from the body, freedom from material [bonds], liberation from mortality, release from generation and similar [i]lesser goals of catharsis." The greater goals that followed were theurgic: the unification with the creative cause, the demiurgic activity of joining parts of wholes, and the subsequent reinvestment of parts with the vitality of their universal sources.

... which tends to support what you are saying. Oh yeah those guys knew a thing or two!

In my opinion a big problem exists with any tradition that maintains there is something intrinsically wrong with physical existence. My view, and Bardon's, and Iamblichus's, is that this material plane is still the most important. I feel the Buddhists (anyway zen people, the Tibetans are different) often emphasize indeed those inferior aspects and go for 'head enlightenment' rather than 'whole body enlightenment', as Michael Winn would say.

One might say that Robert Bruce's emphasis one OBE is actually a withdrawal from seeing matter as important but it ain't so! Firstly OBE is a natural phenomenon anyhow. Secondly you go out in order to come back and bring things with you when you do. That these things then revive this earth herself seems to me to be the point - our personal earth, our body, and the earth at large. This BTW is the reason why Robert is not becoming unbalanced from only taking earth energy in energy work - he takes energy from higher during OBE.

Much more I could say! But anyhow, it seems we agree now. Great talkin'! :D

best NN