The Age Of Spiritual Machines

[Drellix]

Has anyone read anything by Ray Kurzweil? It's really interesting stuff. Most of his predictions have been correct, or it happened faster then he predicted. He predicts that the personal computer will have human level intelligence by 2020. It's a really good book and I suggest checking it out.

[CFTraveler]

Frankly, I hope he's wrong.

[Palehorse Redivivus]

Yeah... electronics are temperamental enough as it is. Pretty soon they really will be breaking down just to spite you. :P

[sash]

Intelligence misses one thing, the Soul. Intelligence running without Soul was recorded as a quote as 'The Antichrist', I don't remember who said it though.

[Drellix]

Basically what he is saying is that WE will become the machines. Like I said most of his predictions have been right up to this point, and according to his math I wouldn't be surprised. The exponential nature of the increasing power of the integrated circut is just crazy. Think of how fast we went in 10 years from not alot of people having computers to relying on them completely. Pending some global disaster, what Ray Kurweil is saying is that we will become machines ourselves.

Evolution took billions of years to create us. We did with technology in thousands of years what took evolution billions. In turn we will create another process more intelligent then us.

[CFTraveler]

Drellix wrote:
In turn we will create another process more intelligent than us. And that is the scary part.
cue the Borg: "Resistance is futile"
watch (the modern) Battlestar Galactica, or read the Hyperion trilogy by Dan Simmons.

Science fiction, yes. A scary possibility.

[journyman161]

Evolution took billions of years to create us. We did with technology in thousands of years what took evolution billions. In turn we will create another process more intelligent then us.Well, we haven't done it yet... Yes we've come a long way but we are also pushing the limits of what is possible within the current paradigm. Spintronics pushed back the boundaries a little but so far has mainly been applied to storage rather than processing.

The limits we are reaching are pretty basic ones - something has to change before we can make the next step to self-aware machines. When you look at the processing times in the human brain, it is apparent there is something else going on other than neurons activating. Almost all the time lag in human reactions can be traced to the physical messaging - there is virtually none of it attributable to the decision-making process or even the contemplative process.

A possibility might be the interconnectivity of the Internet, providing the infrastructure for the creation of an AI that sprawls world-wide - but again the time lag of the messaging comes into play - at the moment, such an entity would have to somehow come about within the disjointed electrical field that emanates from the millions of computers that make up the 'net.

For now, computers are ALL about the physical messages, even within the cores. Until the processing is somehow moved out of the physical systems, I doubt we will be able to emulate, let alone surpass, the human 'machine'

But adding capabilities to the human machine is a distinct possibility. I don't know if we can beat the awareness paradigm of humans, but I wouldn't mind some hig-speed RAM & storage available for 'outsourcing' some of the stuff that takes solid cogitation. It would be nice to say - 'here's the problem. Calculate this & give me an answer' & then go about my business.

But again, there is a consideration here - maybe if I learned to actually use all my capability & capacity, I could surpass the performance of any physical adjunct just using native hardware, software & soulware? After all, we don't even have a proper explanation for the flashes of genius & intuition that a lot of people experience - maybe it would be available to all if we only change the current environment for learning?

[CFTraveler]

hardware, software & soulware
I really like that. :D

[journyman161]

I seem to recall being called 'geek' so it's a natural step for me to see things that way *grins*

[Drellix]

Well, we haven't done it yet... Yes we've come a long way but we are also pushing the limits of what is possible within the current paradigm. Spintronics pushed back the boundaries a little but so far has mainly been applied to storage rather than processing.

The limits we are reaching are pretty basic ones - something has to change before we can make the next step to self-aware machines. When you look at the processing times in the human brain, it is apparent there is something else going on other than neurons activating. Almost all the time lag in human reactions can be traced to the physical messaging - there is virtually none of it attributable to the decision-making process or even the contemplative process.


Yes, there is limitations to this currently, but according to Kurzweils math we will achieve this in personal computers by 2020. Ok, so computers can process things much faster than we can. They are still about as intelligent as incects at this point. They still couldn't tell you what the objects are on a kitchen table. Basically, he explains exactly how you would reverse engineer a human brain. You wouldn't need to how the entire brain works to reverse engineer it. Just the parts. Then you would feed it information. Computers arent just going to be "a little" more intelligent then us, they will be thousands of times smarter then us. Probably in our lifetimes. And we won't even realize that it has happened. He goes very in depth, relates it to evolution, the laws of time and choas, its all speculative of course but he has been right for the most part so far... resistence is futile haha... i'm pretty convinced after reading the book at least. He is definatly an optimist. I would checking this book out of a library, then deciding for yourself what to think about his ideas.


Maybe check out some of these articles
http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?m=3

[journyman161]

Math is nice but it can't predict the moments of genius that solve major problems. I don't know if you or he are aware, but people have been reverse engineering the human brain in both hardware & software for several decades & so far, none of them have achieved the Turing test. They get close with normal conversation but the ability to fool a human in such an area isn't a real indication of intelligence.

AI has come a long way but still it isn't 'intelligence' in the way normal people understand it. Self-awareness is a whole new level of complexity above what is currently possible. It may even be (think of the site you're on) that true intelligence is not achievable at all unless a soul or spirit inhabits the vehicle to give it consciousness.

As for predictions, some of the most reasonable & well-backed ones are still not on the horizon. Where are our personal Flyers? Some are only now coming along after being predicated for the 1960's. What happened to the video watch/phone? Even straight science ones haven't come to pass. Just why haven't we got people living in Space yet?

Computers are amazing & they have come a long way - at school I used a slide rule - when calculators came along, we were banned from using them in exams, & they weren't programmable in the slightest. But Kurweil is extrapolating from the past & projecting that into the future &, without reading the book, he is assuming that intelligence & consciousness are just more complex versions of the AI we have.

[Tempestinateapot]

Geek :lol:

[CFTraveler]

That's funny I was just reading a book that mentioned Kurtzweil and the other guy who runs his website, and was going to quote something interesting that someone else said about them. But maybe I won't....
I know---wussy.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Has anyone seen Ghost in the Shell. I imagine it will be like that. I doubt if we could ever manufacture a Soul. Only the illusion of one. So I doubt that Machines could ever become Wiser than us. They may become smarter Logically, but they wqill lack the ability to see spirituality. I think :-S


< EDIT>PHG is there a reason your now Tempestinateapot lol. Good name BTW</EDIT>

[CFTraveler]

Oh please don't make her tell it! <gags>
Let's just say she got food poisoning and deleted herself in her delusional state. Then decided to make a fresh start with that new lovely name.
:shock:

[asalantu]

Frankly, I hope he's wrong.

Why..!! After all, we are machines, too.

Sincerely,
Ángel

[Tempestinateapot]

2 week long food poisoning = delirium. As Cf said, you don't even want to know. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/wuerg/vomit-smiley-001.gif

I think we can clone humans and build oober intelligent machines. There's always some soul around who will want to take it for a test drive. :D

[CFTraveler]

Frankly, I hope he's wrong.

Why..!! After all, we are machines, too.

Sincerely,
Ángel That exactly is the attitude that forces me to jump into this issue.
The idea that we can build something to transcend us goes to the very idea of what we think being Human is, as Angel so simply expressed in the above example. Thanks to the technological age, we have come to the scary conclusion that we are only quantities. We have framed our reality into the idea that everything is a resource that can be used for rationalized ends. We have no intrinsic value- just resources to be used! This is why we have created weapons of mass destruction, have poisoned our environment, and continue to come up with ways of destroying ourselves and the earth with it.
Every time we come up with something that helps humanity, we come up with something that harms us. This is because we don't value being or consciousness. We only value speed, efficiency, quantity based information, or things. That's also why every time we create a way to make less work for us, we create new ways for us to use our time. We create needs that didn't exist before because we don't value ourselves except for the machine we are, so we create labor for ourselves. We don't work on the quality of our lives, and we make fun of those who do.
Why do you think there are ghettoes? Surplus human resources. Manpower. We have no value!
Do you think for a second if we build an AI intelligent enough to outthink us they'll let us continue to exist? No. Because we will teach them that quantity, speed, output, things is what matters, and since we will be obsolete, will be considered a waste of resources. And what do you think will happen?
While we continue to think of ourselves as thinking machines meant to produce, we will eventually create something that will transcend us, and if it inherits our materialistic ethic, they won't even think twice about obliterting us. That simple.

[asalantu]

Frankly, I hope he's wrong.

Why..!! After all, we are machines, too.

Sincerely,
Ángel

As a matter of fact, CF, my viewpoint is not as simplistic as previously quoted. Although human brain is roughly modelated (by scientists) as a neural network (basically at gray matter level), consciousness is at a finer level. Trascend neuro-chemical-electrical waves but is nearly correlated and there are a strong correlation between them. But, to date, is overlooked by scientific measurement techniques (aka instruments like brainmappers). Consciousness is result, apparently following scientist opinion, of whole brain activity.

I remember a quote from ancient British Psychic Society President (former Sir Oliver Lodge). Once he sayd: "Or are we nonmortal beings or we aren't, science cannot bring light about our destiny, but certainly must not obscure it". We Astraldynamic's forists have proof of things beyond physical awareness and hence physical understanding. My viewpoint about such fact is no more nor less than: when appropiate time comes, apparently nonphysical phenomena will be thoroughly quantified by evolved quantification means (aka scientific instruments). Is question of time, but that time, of sure will come. Firsts scientist must to evolve reaching the awareness that there are more than that its relatively advanced detection systems reveal to them. Remember, a science like physics is that wich deals about nature laws. And, from my viewpoint, all is natural, nothing is supernatural. Is only a question of to make to evolve our viewpoints in order to mature and to deal with such phenomena.

But about controversial thread subject (spiritual machines era), is opinion from mine machines will grow reaching real consciousness. Why not..? Our bodies are superb advanced machines. But our bodies are not the Universe/God main aim. Holymen allegedly supports such primitive idea. Catholic holymen (despite any religious-political concern and apologize my proposal) postulates things like: "flesh resurrection" but such paradigm is so rough as scientist's paradigm, nothing has to do with spiritual concerns. Only spirit accounts. The rest are only matter of illusion. Physical body relevance is a mundane illusion. An illusion derived from a material viewpoint of selfrelevance and selfish, founded of course in our transient unability of perceive higher things like those revealed to us through NEW technique. Physical body is only relevant because it allows us to birth, to experience physical pain, psychological suffering, spiritual uncertainty, illness, death; things only achievable at physical existence.

Sincerely,
Ángel

[Drellix]

I think it is possible for a machine to have a soul. Perhaps all that is required for a soul is conciousness. I mean is it that far out there that a machine could have a soul? If we are spiritual beings temporarily inhabiting physical bodies, why couldn't there be spiritual beings inhabiting machine bodies? It would be just synthetic based neurons instead of mammalian circutry. Maybe if machines become a process reflecting on itself, it creates a soul. I mean if you can consider your own existence, doesn't that create a soul? If thought exists on one level, doesn't it exist on all levels? I dunno. Its just my opinion.

Dispite that there are limitations to this becoming possible presently, once the processing power is acheived it will be possible. It doesn't seem plausable now, but in ten years people may be rethinking their opinions on the matter. And the thing is, is that people wont even notice that it has happened. I think to myself sometimes that my generation is going to be the last that remembers what it is like not to have the internet. Computers are essiential in just about every industry now. All in a very short period of time. And the speed of change is getting faster and faster.

Imagine what it would be like to become a machine. I already think enough, I couldn't imagine processing things millions of times faster. Maybe machines will just go bonkers from thinking and destroy themselves.

[Mekiel]

the leap I think is moving from physical matter (gold, plastic, etc) to organic tissue. The brain is after all only sending electronic impulses back and forth. Considering the speed at witch sience is now moving in regards to cells. We are now growing organs. And soon will be able to grow brain cells. Give the computer geeks some play time with a human brain and some wires (yeah I know this is a little macabre, and frankensteinsish) and you will have "hal" there in no time at all.

However true intelligence ( self awereness ) can not, I belive exist without a soul.

But is self awareness created because of the soul, or is the soul created when a creature become aware?

Hehe..anyway first post.. and nice to meet you all

[Drellix]

Yes indeed, I would highly recommend it reading it.