Castaneda: Real or Fake

[enlimm]

Hey all..

I am a fan of the works of Castaneda. I haven't read all the works yet, but what I read I took as true. I have read that Castaneda is a fiction writer who concocted the stories in his books. I didn't entertain the thought at first until I checked out one of the sites purported to show where he is a fake.

http://www.sustainedaction.org

Of particular interest to me is the breakdown of the different takes of the ‘supposed’ first meeting between Castaneda and don Juan. It can be argued that one would remember the first meeting with one's teacher of such marvelous things, and not miss simple details such as whether initially don Juan was sitting down and Castaneda walked in, or if Castaneda was sitting and don Juan walked in. Or, whether don Juan was sitting by a window or in a corner when Castaneda and a friend walked in.

Please adherents and skeptics alike share your impressions of the works of Castaneda and your thoughts on whether the books recount fact or elucidate fiction, and why?

[Quantitativefool]

-A Yaqui Way of Knowledge-

I found this book to be greatly informational. I'm not sure as to fake or not but there are indeed alot of truths within this book. I'm also curious as to if some of those herbal concouctions do actually work. Well... that's my opinion in a nutshell.

Best wishes,
-Stu

[Kuang Mu tian]

of course "He is real".

He wrote that books of him. :roll:

As a matter of fact, he used drugs. I'd say that fact makes the question whether he's real or not almost irrelevant. In order to benefit most you got to pull his work thru your filters and suck out what is useful to ya, no?

[enlimm]

of course "He is real".

He wrote that books of him. :roll:

As a matter of fact, he used drugs. I'd say that fact makes the question whether he's real or not almost irrelevant. In order to benefit most you got to pull his work thru your filters and suck out what is useful to ya, no?

Hey. To be more clear, if he is 'real or fake' refers specifically to are his books recounting of actual factual events meeting actual people (don Juan for instance) and seeing actual beings and entities (whether physical or nonphysical, organic or inorganic), or is it fiction, make-believe, and made to look like it is factual, i.e., fake.

And thank you for your tip on how to utilize his work. This can go for anyone's work, aye? :)

Thank you.

Thank you and everyone for replying and voting. Please continue.

[Kalonek]

There is a lot of controversy around his books, but what I think is important to point is that Castaneda explains itself a number of times that he doesn't understand really well what Don Juan is telling him on many subjects, the antique wisdom he is sharing with him. Therefore Castaneda's analysis of Don Juan's teachings must be taken with precaution in any case, be it real or fake, for one canno't explain well in a book what he has not understand himself clearly.

[Mr. Burns]

For a long time in my twenties I poured over the Castaneda books searcing for the keys to nonordinary reality. I read the detractors, but their arguments of logic against Castaneda's work seemed uncompelling and a bit vengeful, as if a crusade to catch him in a falsehood or grab a media spotlight. I brushed their statements aside because the narrative presented by Castaneda had a logic of its own as well, one which I found intriguing and similar to limited experiences I'd had with lucid dreams and OOBEs. Then I came upon Amy Wallace's book Sorcerer's Apprentice my life with Carlos Castaneda. It provided a detailed, coherent examination of the Nagual and his cohorts from someone who knew them all as an insider. Her ultimate conclusions were a gentle let down for me, as she showed the dangers of guru worship and the need for self-actualization yet allowed for the philosophy of the mastery of awareness to stand as an intriging avenue for human perception. This tale of Carlos to me is bit of "don't let the messenger destroy the message" and "dont let the message destroy the recipient." All things are possible in nonordinary reality including the bizarre experiences of Castaneda, but what lies behind the Faery Glamoury no one can tell another. As for practicing anything from the books as a personal endeavor, keep searching other places. As they say, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

[CFTraveler]

Awesomely good advice, Mr. Burns.

[kmD]

i feel you have to read the entire series to comment on it, either positively or negatively. For example, someone mentioned his use of drugs in a negative connatation. If you have read "Tales of Power", you would see that Don Juan explains to Carlos the only reason he had him use peyote was because he's not sensitive to energy. Don Juan goes on to say that others have no need to use peyote because of their level of sensitivity.

Personally, I have benefitted greatly from Castenada and his writings. Specifically, "Tales of Power" has been invaluable to me. The concepts of the fear we create to safe-guard our ego, imho, can benefit all potiential projectors.

The point is to use these writings for what they are worth to you. I would say the same of the Bible. Theres a message there that can help people, but in the end its just a book.

John Lennon said it best, "I dont believe in the Beatles, I just believe in me."

[Mr. Burns]

I've been thinking over the last few days about my response to this topic and felt like I had to add some things. I read every book on through to the greatest hits book Wheel of Time (or Wheel of Money) that was published shortly before his death. It is true that his writings contain wisdom and insight (if they really are his writings, rumors are they were heavily edited which may explain why a lot of people search for inconsistencies and often find them). I particulary liked the luminous egg/assemblege point metaphor, brilliant. But I gotta say, read Amy Wallace's book when your done. I let Carlos off easy in my post. If what she says about him is true, David Koresh was an amateur. I feel sorry for those who wrapped themselves around his Cleargreen/Magical Passes company. I was almost one of them. My living in the midwest and not LA was all that separated me from a hard lesson. I must have read every half baked interview and personal anecdote written. I sold all the books and burned the internet stuff after her book. Strangely, I'm not really bitter about it though, I learned a lot without getting in too far and it led me to many alternative sources for the info I desired. Plus it made me very skeptical. It'll be much harder to have the wool pulled over my eyes, not a bad trait if you can avoid getting jaded. Many things in his books allude to real and wonderful practices from around the world,
but the cohesive system is a dead end, with no support structure to help you when the going gets rough. One could potenially create a valid system from the whole of it, but you would have to fill in a lot of blanks and altar a lot to round it off. My suggestion is to leave it alone as just an interesting literary work, and find someone who really knows what they're talking about.

A few questions for those of you who are most familair with castenada:

1) how many books has he written on the "Don Juan" subject?

2) How much of his writings is actuall directions on how to do things and how much only gives you hints?

3) How Bluntly does he put things?

I ask these because I have been suggested them by several people and beings.

[kmD]

here is his amazon listing, has the books ive read and then some.

Click Here for link (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dstripbooks%26field-author%3Dcarlos%20castaneda%26results-process%3Ddefault%26dispatch%3Dsearch/ref%3Dpd%5Fsl%5Faw%5Ftops-1%5Fstripbooks%5F8104523%5F2/103-6110024-7552662)

The books Ive read are not "manual-esque" like AD. Instead they are a personal account and therefor Don Juan's methods seem only revelant to Carlos. OBE is intensely personal for me, and I wouldnt think what works for him would work for me.

What I got from the books was that its our own ego that keeps us from seeing the other side of things, because then you have to give up the idea that you know whats going on, and throw your fears and cares out the window when comes to the astral. This was huge for me, esc. as a beginner. That being said, and also being aware of your level of practice Spectral, I would say that reading these books might not benefit you as greatly as a beginner, but that you would find them interesting and maybe minorly beneficial.

Mr Burns, I understand you viewpoint now, and it sucks royally that someone would prey on your trust like that. But I hope you were able to pull a positive from a negative situation, and from the sounds of it, you did.

[Mr. Burns]

I wasn't a part of the Castaneda circle, so no one really preyed on my trust except myself. I almost went to several of the seminars held by the Cleargreen company sponsored by Castaneda. They taught what were called Magical Passes (or Tensegrity), and various other excercises like recapitulation, stalking, dreaming, and using the second attention. Magical passes are similar to Qi Gong movements. The recapitulation is a life review to free yourself of your past socializations. Dreaming is traveling in the second attention through manipulation of the assemblage point (or a point of consciousness through which universal energy is filtered to create our preceptual reality whether physical or otherwise). The second attention is the astral perspective. Stalking is bringing the maleable nature of the astral into the physical. All these things are in the books although one has to sort and rearrange to put it all together, like a murder mystery over several books. That, I think is what was so intriguing for me. It all starts out with Carlos switching between the physical and the astral until the lines are so blurred he breaks down. Don Juan steps in and offers adive on how to survive this blitz, but he does so from the astral using a kind of shaktipat, leaving Carlos to try and sort it out from the physical over many years. In the end he gains a complex series of understandings about the nature of reality. It would be interesting to find out from others who maybe went to these seminars what they were like. I think they are still offering them. If you're interested check out their website: cleargreen.com. All these things can assist energetic development. It's in the details where there is no support. A lot of these practices are couched in a narrative which requires you to do questionable things. Divorce yourself from your family, renounce intimacy (and not just sex), pursue possibly illegal situations, and the real red flag is that you need the Nagual (or a special personage with a rare energetic constitution) to attain freedom from a fatalistic death. These are brought up numerous times throughout the books in no uncertain terms and later repeated in interviews with Carlos and his cohorts. Then towards the end of Carlos's life he does a little bit of backpeddling. He starts to soften and change the rules a bit, explaining he was still uncovering more secrets Don Juan had "buried" in his attention. Problem is, he didn't follow his own rules according to Wallace. Apparently the way the Nagual frees others of being food for death is through his genitals for females and through the genitals of the female Nagual counterpart for males (played by Carol Tiggs, aka Kathleen Pohlman). That's only the tip of the iceberg, but I won't spoil it for those who want to read her book. Sorry if I sound a bit crude but I spent a good 5 years thinking I'd found something really unique and special. It was intellectual, emotionally comforting, self evident, compatible with the nature of nonphysical reality, and had panache. Wallace's book is very detailed with lots of supporting evidence to back up her claims. Her book was 5 years late. I walked away a bit flabbergasted. I guess I would like to think someone about to involve themselves with this would first want to think about what all the info available has to say. Anyways, I turned from the whole thing and found more valuable things in Taoist practice, Yoga, Buddhism, Western Mystery Tradition, Shamanism, and of course Robert Bruce's books. And I'm skeptical still of even these sources. I never accept teachings from someone who requires me to submit to their authority or distinct mythology. If anything gets too complex for me I know I've gotten off track and slow down. Simplicity is best. The Taoists say that you can practice hard your whole life, but if you practice the wrong things it's all for nothing. Tread carefully.

P.S. - At the end of Wallace's book she asks for any information regarding the whereabouts of some of Carlos's cohorts who disappered shortly after his death. Private investigators and mounting evidence suggest they commited suicide. Cleargreen states they're traveling. Everyone else who had a close relationship with the Nagual and has not disappeared is either severely messed up or in intensive counseling. That's not a red flag, it's a fireworks show. sustainedaction.org should provide more information.

I believe Carlos wrote or co-wrote 10 books. Magical Passes is a workbook. The others are narratives in which the practices are cushioned in the teachings Don Juan gives to Carlos.

Thanks for letting me ramble and rant. lol

[kmD]

hey man, thats what forums are for! :lol:

anyway, its good you were able to take that lesson from what you experienced. I think its the same with any line of beliefs, that you can find self-indulgence in any kind of path that claims to lead to self discovery, or in some cases, self preservation. I think the Marx quote, "Religion is the opiate of the masses" comes to mind. It's one of those lessons learned in life that is usually either taught to you at a young age, or is hard to bear in later life. And then you have those who never learn, and follow others beliefs blindly and never have the chance to establish their own beliefs. Its those people that I have great pity for. As for those who prey on that need for self knowledge, they are by and large scum who hopefully will get karma retribution for appealing to someones common denomenator for their own selfish purposes.

[Mr. Burns]

Well said. Those people could say, my karma ran over my dogma.

[Mr. Burns]

My mistake, Carlos wrote 12 books. Two were published posthumously.

[aycorn]

Getting in on this a little late, but:

I think, to be honest, that whether Castaneda related true events or fictional events is irrelevant. It's possible he told fictional stories in order to get the spiritual lessons he was trying to convey across.

I feel the same way, for example, about the "Conversations With God" books. It really doesn't matter whether the messages came from God, some other spiritual entity, or are just Neale Donald Walsch's personal ideas, and he made up the "God" bit just to get heard. What matters is how I feel about the ideas he's articulating (BTW - I like them and agree with them pretty well).