Plato's riddle of Non-being

[sash]

There is a 'riddle' in platonic philosophy that basically proposes that if there is a denial of an existence that denial in actuality proves that said existence. I think this concept is interesting to apply to spirituality specifically. For instance if someone states 'I don't believe in God', they are actually postulating the existence of 'God' first to then reject that existence.

It is interesting to play around with the concept.

I feel this could go down one of those spirituality/science debates, but do you think there is any truth to this 'riddle' within that debate? I think there is definitely some truth in it even though I can see how potential fallacies might arise. It certainly tells us something about how the human mind reasons things out sometimes.

Just throwing it out there as an expanding-counsciousness idea, anyway.

[CFTraveler]

Well, if you think about something, you're essentially objectifying it, and doing so gives it temporal reality, which is what reality is considered to be, so I can go with that thought.
It's funny that we that say that objective reality is an illusion are giving it reality by denying it.
Kind of reminds me of Mick's sig: " If it's all illusion, then why all the beliefs?"

[enoch]

how can we talk of that which does not exist?

Easily.

There's a teapot full of pixies orbiting the earth. :P

how can we talk of that which does not exist?

Easily.

There's a teapot full of pixies orbiting the earth. :P

I do not believe in a teapot full of pixies orbiting the earth. Uh oh. :shock: I just affirmed the possible existance of such!!! :P :lol:

[enoch]

I love pixies in teapots. Thanks scymitar. They're green and they wear bobble hats.

You've gone and done it now!!! You've created a thought form, and now there's a teapot full of pixies orbiting the earth that are green and wear bobble hats. Next thing you know, someone will proclaim them Gods and start worshipping them. It will be the "Teapot Pixie Religion", and everyone will have to wear green bobble hats. :lol:

You've gone and done it now!!! You've created a thought form, and now there's a teapot full of pixies orbiting the earth that are green and wear bobble hats. Next thing you know, someone will proclaim them Gods and start worshipping them. :lol:

:oops:

You mean...they aren't gods???? Crap, my whole day is ruined now!

Teapot Pixie Religion hymn:
(sung to "Happy Birthday to You"

Oh, bless...ed be the day,
When I found the Green Pixies,
I will forever be thankful,
That one day I will circletheentireuniverseinateapotwearingabobblehatw iththem.

Teapot Pixie Religion hymn:
(sung to "Happy Birthday to You"

Oh, bless...ed be the day,
When I found the Green Pixies,
I will forever be thankful,
That one day I will circletheentireuniverseinateapotwearingabobblehatw iththem.

OMG :lol: That is funny!!!

[CFTraveler]

I guess they ate the mutant spaghetti monster. Oh well....

[wstein]

I assume there is no need to put sugar in a cup of pixie tea? I'm not sure if the pixies would clog the tea pot spout...

There is a fine point about the definition of 'exist'. While the concept must exist or is automatically created by talking about it, the actual incatnation does not necessarily follow. This is espcially true if part of the 'thought form' includes an assumption of 'mythical'.

I guess they ate the mutant spaghetti monster. Oh well....

Great CF, way to go...

[Beekeeper]

I'm part of a schism that believes the mutant spaghetti monster was in fact the result of a stray piece of boiled spaghetti that was accidentally animated by the magic dregs of the pixie tea as they were tipped down the blessed font of miraculous inundation. The consumption of said spaghetti monster was in fact an act of mercy and not a callous act of ritual sacrifice, as seen by some Pixie scholars. The pixies euphanased a creature that had no business existing in the first place and which, in actuality, deeply desired its immediate termination for lack of company of its own kind.

[enoch]

You can read all about teapotism here. It is rather appropriate to this thread: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

[CFTraveler]

They forgot to mention the pixies. Maybe they're too small to see too.... :shock:

I'm part of a schism that believes the mutant spaghetti monster was in fact the result of a stray piece of boiled spaghetti that was accidentally animated by the magic dregs of the pixie tea as they were tipped down the blessed font of miraculous inundation. The consumption of said spaghetti monster was in fact an act of mercy and not a callous act of ritual sacrifice, as seen by some Pixie scholars. The pixies euphanased a creature that had no business existing in the first place and which, in actuality, deeply desired its immediate termination for lack of company of its own kind.

I'm of the sect that sees this spaghetti monster not as a mutant or freak of nature, but as something that was supposed to be by virtue of the fact that it did come into being. We see the consumption as a direct act against nature (we get pretty mad about it too, have little meetings and such where we shout how much we are right and how everyone else is wrong - lots of fist waving and hate mongering). It is, in fact, the patron of all misfits everywhere, it's sufferings were meant to liberate us from our own suffering, but, usually just pisses us off and makes us quite cranky and unreasonable. :P

I think that the teapot myth is just that. A myth. People need to wake up to themselves and stop killing each other over these silly beliefs and start living in harmony...

Sing it wit me!

"people say I'm a dreamer...... but Im not the only one...."

I LOVE that song Alex. :D

[Beekeeper]

Scymitar72, oh sure, that may be the orthodox view after the Council of Bolognaise, in 72 A.S during which the Pixie Gospels were decimated under the presidings of the Great Poobah Parmesan. But there are many excised texts that state unequivocally that the mutuant desired its own demise.

From the Book of Noodle, Ch3, verses 12 to 17, for example,

The Pixie scribes debated the baptism of the Spaghetti Mutant, considering if he would be required to wear the green bobble hat and reside in the teapot. Then Pontius Pixie asked the Mutant, “What would yea choose?”
The mutant replied, “I cannot wear the bobble hat for I lacketh a head and the hat would interfereth with my ability to communicate psychically. I would prefer to fulfill the purpose for which I was born. I am unhappy as a sentient being.”
Where upon Pontius Pixie ordered that the Mutant Spaghetti creature be anesthetized, rolled on a folk, gently seasoned with herbs and consumed by the pixie community.


But really, that's it for me, I can't be bothered debating with anti-Pixites! (Goes off in a huff)

[Scorpyn]

This this divert into some kind of "religion of the day" kinda thing?

Hmm... maybe I should do that... switch religions once a week...

Nah, my current way of modifying my current beliefs every now and then should be enough...

Anyway, back on topic :

I agree, at least partially. If we consider something to not exist, then we have created it (or at least created our own version of it). However, once we forget about it, it will cease to exist. Until something reminds us of it, which means that nothing can ever cease to exist. Unless it was never created of course, but then we can't reject the idea of it being created.

I suppose this is why every major religion is correct. Their beliefs make it correct. In some cases it also makes other ppls religions wrong, but since it's their religion it's still correct.

It's a complicated world we live in. Or do we? Isn't life a thoughtform in itself, only a very stable one?

Anyway, I'll make an experiment :

Within 24 hours from posting this, there is no way I'll win a few million dollars.

[star]

I find it hard to believe "This is the one and only way and evrything this says is right" Religions :)

So everyone in the Amazon who hasen't ever heard of your religion is now burning in some hellish pit for sins they never knew of, or didn't realize they were commiting, becuase they don't worship your god?

But he loves you so very much, and thats why he is sending you into oblivion!

Of course some people would say they hold historical fact to back up everything. Poppycoc!

Ever play "Telephone?" information changes from person to person, not to mention thousands of years of politics..

I'm putting my foot down! (And converting to Gnostic Atheisism!) Did that make sense?

But back to the topic.. The Conned don't exist and the rich and laughing don't either..

[enoch]

Anyone hear about those primitive tribes who worship John Brum? He was a traveller who appeared on the island with a cargo. he went again and ever since they've been contemplating the return of the messiah, john brum. They have churches devoted to him and they do rituals that they reckon will bring cargo like his.

Weird. makes you wonder

I find it hard to believe "This is the one and only way and evrything this says is right" Religions :)

So everyone in the Amazon who hasen't ever heard of your religion is now burning in some hellish pit for sins they never knew of, or didn't realize they were commiting, becuase they don't worship your god?

But he loves you so very much, and thats why he is sending you into oblivion!

Of course some people would say they hold historical fact to back up everything. Poppycoc!

I agree! I've had problems with this too. Oh, but at least one major religion has an 'out' for this little problem - the messiah won't return until EVERYONE on Earth has heard the good news of him and has been offered the choice to accept him or not, lol. :roll: Soooo literal people!!


Ever play "Telephone?" information changes from person to person, not to mention thousands of years of politics..

Excellent point and I agree with this too! I think of it in terms that info that comes in is altered a bit by the person's belief system and level of understanding, then is passed along in it's altered form. After passing through these filters, it is often not exactly the same as it was originally. Pass this info through thousands of folks' filters, and, most often it is so changed as to bear little resemblance to the original message.

Anyone hear about those primitive tribes who worship John Brum? He was a traveller who appeared on the island with a cargo. he went again and ever since they've been contemplating the return of the messiah, john brum. They have churches devoted to him and they do rituals that they reckon will bring cargo like his.

Weird. makes you wonder

My ex-boyfriend used to use a similar example - that airplanes appeared as great bird gods to more primitive folk.

On a side note - interesting you mention "Cargo". I just watched an episode of Nat'l Geographic's "Guns, Germs & Steel" last night, a documentary that discusses the disparity in global human developement. This really interesting scientist was asked by a native New Guinean "How come white men have so much Cargo and us New Guineans don't". This prompted him to try to find an answer to his friend's question. There were clips where the natives revered this cargo so much, as to even wear pieces of cereal boxes as decorative head dresses. Interesting stuff. Great documentary if anyone is interested. :)

[enoch]

:lol:

[enoch]

have a cuppa tea

have another one


have a cuppa tea

[enoch]

It's a bit unnerving to think that they look out to sea and sky for their gods (western man in boats and planes) but we looked up to the sky in ancient times when there were no such flying craft :shock:

Theres a great article on wikipedia about cargo cults, something I found fascinating. Some build replica runways and airplanes in homage to their gods, believing it will bring more cargo !

:!:

That's interesting. I wonder what advanced beings think of us and our silly superstitions and beliefs. I mean, just like lesser developed civilizations make up these grand ideas about what is common place to us, how much are we doing the same thing about beings/stuff more advanced than us?

[Beekeeper]

Hey, look what my twelve year old found on you-tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7FcvEydqg :D

[CFTraveler]

Hey, look what my twelve year old found on you-tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7FcvEydqg :D

I knew it! I knew that the flying spaghetti monster really exists! Take this, flying teacup of little leprechauns! (or where they gnomes?)
All hail the flying spaghetti monster!
:D :D :D :D

Hey, look what my twelve year old found on you-tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7FcvEydqg :D

I knew it! I knew that the flying spaghetti monster really exists! Take this, flying teacup of little leprechauns! (or where they gnomes?)
All hail the flying spaghetti monster!
:D :D :D :D

PIXIES, CF, PIXIES!!! *storms off* :P