How many universes are there?

[ereus]

Some Scientists say their are infinite amount of them, could i project to these myriad of universes?

[CFTraveler]

In theory you could, but you wouldn't have any way of knowing if you went to an objective place or a subjective one.

[WhiteMonkey]

You could of course butnwhat you you wanna do there. 99% is just space. Better you meet your higher self ��

[wstein]

Some Scientists say their are infinite amount of them, could i project to these myriad of universes? Most definitely. Have fun, reality is a whole lot larger than a universe.

I've been to several hundred and can be sure there are at least millions. I am pretty certain the number is infinite.

Note that when scientists talk about this, they often refer to 'parallel' universes (the multiverse). Be aware that there are in fact 4 kinds of parallel universes.

[IA56]

Most definitely. Have fun, reality is a whole lot larger than a universe.

I've been to several hundred and can be sure there are at least millions. I am pretty certain the number is infinite.

Note that when scientists talk about this, they often refer to 'parallel' universes (the multiverse). Be aware that there are in fact 4 kinds of parallel universes.

Hi wstein,

Is it from these 4 parallel universes that the 4 elements are decribed as??

Love
ia

[ereus]

Theoritically if there are a infinite amount on universes, all possibilities are true? so there is a universe where i am a female or entire universes identical to fiction if one goes to the logical extent

[IA56]

Theoritically if there are a infinite amount on universes, all possibilities are true? so there is a universe where i am a female or entire universes identical to fiction if one goes to the logical extent

Yes, I understand, but I was thinking that like in the Kabbalistic chart of tree of life…
If we say that evolution goes from down and up, to use this picture, and then it bends when to be breathened into existence or to materia…like an ouronboro….

I am here only talking about the energy evolution….and therefore only talk about the ”higher” realms like in the tree of life….

1 AIN
2 Ain Soph
3 Ain Soph Aur
4 Yod= Fire
3 He= air
2 Vav=water
1 He= Earth

So if the life is rolling like this this make´s sense to me… I am just in the beginning of my process of progress…

I did write one what dissapared into the syber…so I feel I am not such collected as I was when I wrote the first what dissapeared.

Do someone know what countries do write from as we do write from left to right…who do write from right to left, and who do write from up to down, and from down to up??....I have seen this and I am now seeking to know because this is also important for the 4 as elements are too.
So
if this is the first one of the 4
what cound the 2-4 be??

Love
Ia

[CFTraveler]

Theoritically if there are a infinite amount on universes, all possibilities are true? so there is a universe where i am a female or entire universes identical to fiction if one goes to the logical extent Theoretically anything is possible, but scientifically speaking it's not infinite possibilities, but an infinity of possible universes, making it finite. A very high number probably, but not strictly infinite. (See Shrodinger's waveform for a more 'scientifically accurate' estimation.)

[CFTraveler]

I'd like for wstein to describe the four universes, if you're ok with this, W.

[ereus]

Doesn't stephen hawking believe there are infinite amount of parallel universes

[wstein]

Is it from these 4 parallel universes that the 4 elements are decribed as?? No.

[wstein]

If you want the more formal view (in reasonabl understandable terminology), you can find it here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2012/11/a-guide-to-different-kinds-of-parallel-universes/


I'd like for wstein to describe the four universes, if you're ok with this, W. There are not four universes. There are four classes of parallel universes.
A-if space (AKA space-time continuum) is infinite and quantum states are finite, then there must be repeats of every configuration of quantum states. In other word, anything that exists anywhere has an infinite number of exact (quantum mechanically speaking) duplicates elsewhere.

B-(multiverse, multiworlds interpretation, parallel timelines) the prevailing understanding of quantum mechanics is that fundamental particles are not exact in nature but rather a cloud of probabilities. Only when 'viewed' do they take on a singular exact state. Rising in popularity is the interpretation all of the probabilities 'occur' when 'viewed', each in a parallel universe. At every moment nearly identical 'copies' of the entire universe are created based on all the possible quantum outcomes of subatomic interactions. Each of those copies goes on to spawn its own copies at the next moment. The net effect at the macro level is that anything that can happen does happen. This does not meant anything is possible, whatever comes to be must have a 'valid' chain of cause and effect that created it (no violating laws of nature).

C-some cosmological equations suggest that universes can bud (spawn) ‘daughter’ universes when space gets too distorted. These daughter universe eventually break free of their parents and become full and complete universe in their own right. Note that the laws of physic need not be identical between the parent and child.

D-Membrane theory suggests that This universe is but a membrane floating in a reality with more dimensions (than the three we have). As such other membranes may be floating out there in the larger reality. Frighteningly, these membranes (universes) can collide (one possible explanation for the big bang).

[wstein]

Theoritically if there are a infinite amount on universes, all possibilities are true? so there is a universe where i am a female or entire universes identical to fiction if one goes to the logical extent All of the scientifically based parallel universes require that the laws of nature are are obeyed without exception. For instance this would preclude us all from instantly turning into cartoon characters.

So it does support the idea that there are parallel universe out there where you where conceived and born as a female. However, as your current DNA was I assume XY, your XX (female) version would not be any more similar to you than a sister would be. There are of course more exotic possibilities that might be valid for you. Perhaps you currently are intersex or have transsexual genes. If so, your parallel versions might have chosen (or have chosen for them) to be raised female or to later become female.

Actual versions of fictional universes are possible assuming that they are consistent with some set of fundamental laws (of nature). I would guess that more than half of fiction written to date would qualify.

Advanced note: if this universe is a simulation, dream, or direct product of active consciousness, then in a sense its already fictional and could in fact be recreated as another fictional copy or altered in any arbitrary way. While this may sound ridiculous, there is a current scientific idea suggesting that this universe is more likely a simulation than what we would consider and actual universe (made of matter and energy).

[wstein]

Theoretically anything is possible, but scientifically speaking it's not infinite possibilities, but an infinity of possible universes, making it finite. A very high number probably, but not strictly infinite. (See Shrodinger's waveform for a more 'scientifically accurate' estimation.) Having "an infinity of possible universes" can not make it finite (even is only a subset are actualized).

What is finite (according to current theory) are the number of quantum states at a point in space, this makes the number of possibilities in a single universe finite. There is not yet any solid evidence as to whether or not the number of possible universes is infinite or finite.

If you believe string/M theory, the number of possible sets of laws of nature and that no other possibilities exist. According to this there can still be an infinite number of universes, however only a finite (though large) number of things can be in those universes. As such there must be vast quantities of 'copies' of everything scattered about reality.

[IA56]

No.

Thank you wstein. Is the 4 elements scientific explained ??

So the B universe or multiverse is where we live??

Love
ia

[CFTraveler]

Gotcha.
Now another question, since I'm not up on the latest stuff:

A-if space (AKA space-time continuum) is infinite and quantum states are finite I had the understanding that space (the spacetime continuum) can't be infinite because it's expanding, and for it to expand there has to be some sort of 'quantity' aspect, that maybe what is infinite is 'where' it's expanding to? Even trying to express this is giving me a headache because terms like 'where' imply 'something' and that's not what I mean, but the 'occupied space' versus the 'empty space' infinity aspect, if there is such a thing, seems to be a difference.

[wstein]

Is the 4 elements scientific explained ?? To my best understanding, the four elements view is considered an outdated and mostly naive early model of chemistry. So expalined, yes, but not the way you mean.


So the B universe or multiverse is where we live?? My extensive OBE experience suggests that this universe is A, B, C, and D. Not all the C type universes I have been to have A or B type parallel companions. B type seems especially uncommon (though could be an artifact of limited sampling).

[wstein]

I had the understanding that space (the spacetime continuum) can't be infinite because it's expanding, contrary to popular understanding, there is not one infinity. Infinities come in different 'sizes'. Also infinite is can expand/increase though perversely it doesn't get any 'larger'. Note that combining infinities can make a 'larger' infinity. Its better not to think of infinity as a precise number. Though not technically correct, it is easier to work with if you consider it an undefined really large amount.


and for it to expand there has to be some sort of 'quantity' aspect, that maybe what is infinite is 'where' it's expanding to? It does have a 'quantity' aspect. That quantity in this case is 'infinity'.

I know it kills brain cells to contemplate something expanding into nothing. However in the case of universes, that is pretty much the case. Really, the size of the universe does not affect nor is affected by the nothing.

Infinity need not expand 'to' anywhere. One can just as easily get an infinity by dividing something. For instance, cutting a pie into ever smaller pieces. The total amount of pie remains the same.

[IA56]

Thank you wstein.

Does science have any definition or name on ? what is always bigger then it´s parts??


Love
ia

[ButterflyWoman]

To my best understanding, the four elements view is considered an outdated and mostly naive early model of chemistry.
Indeed. Ancient Greece, to the best of my knowledge. Early philosophers were trying to figure out how the world was put together, and decided that everything was based in water because of the "moistness" of things like sex and birth and so on, and then it grew from there to include other "elements" (which aren't actually elemental at all). I wrote an academic essay once that touched on this topic; can't drag the names of the philosophers out of my head just at the moment, though.

But the idea of "four elements" was picked up by the Romans (who absorbed most of Greek culture), and given the power and longevity of the Roman empire, the idea persisted through the Middle Ages and right through the Renaissance, only being really dispelled by The Enlightenment in the 17th-18th centuries.

People still cling to the idea, though, for a variety of reasons, and the notion does work for in a metaphorical sense for some things, but, yes, it's from an era modern minds can barely comprehend (getting your mind into the worldview of an ancient Greek is quite an interesting challenge!), and, essentially, it doesn't really make any actual sense, scientifically.

It's interesting to me how certain ancient ideas persist while others perish. The meme must be useful, or it would have died out long ago. A lot of ancient Greek philosophy is still around in various forms, though, which, to me, indicates the power of the collective Unconsciousness.

[ereus]

How about this if there are a infinite amount of universes, all possibilities exist even ones that dont make sense, so theoretically their could be a universe that looks identical to fiction even to the point where the art style is the same. I wonder if you could learn fictional occult arts from them.

[CFTraveler]

It's what I call 'the astral'. Heheh.

[ereus]

In theory you could, but you wouldn't have any way of knowing if you went to an objective place or a subjective one.
What do you mean by that?

[CFTraveler]

The astral is composed of whatever is in the collective unconscious. The worlds you visit are real in their own context, but they're not 'real' in the objective sense. So if you go to Venus, you may visit the Venus ninteteenth century scientists thought it might be like, or the Venus the ancient greeks thought up, or the Venus the makers of Avatar thought up for a movie. It can also be the realtime zone Venus (the energetic version of the physical planet Venus) or some in-between astral simulation.
The thing is, that other than comparison with pictures from a satellite or something similar, there is no way to tell which 'Venus' you went to.

[ereus]

I wonder if its possible to go to the real time zone of parallel universes? like search for what you want in said universe than go to said universe. like say i want a world identical to say avatar but as real as mine i wonder if that would work.

[CFTraveler]

I think we already do. I think what we call the astral may be the real time zone of other possible universes-at least part of the time.

[wstein]

I wonder if its possible to go to the real time zone of parallel universes? like search for what you want in said universe than go to said universe. like say i want a world identical to say avatar but as real as mine i wonder if that would work. Why bother with alternate RTZ? Just go visit those parallel universes. Meet yourself, have a talk.

[MooSaysTheCat]

This thread is really interesting and fun to read, I have already tried reading it like three times.

...I tried, because I can't really say that I understand everything that is going on here...but you don't have to understand something to enjoy it ^_^

But can anyone really prove something is infinite? I think that the word "infinite" is being used lightly here...That being said I need not go to other dimensions, for I'am already talking with myself....no seriously I do it everyday...in the shower, in the toilet, when I'm walking in circles in my room...I should probably stop there...


PS. Sorry for just writing about random stuff...basically what I'm trying to say is that I think this thread is interesting hehe.

[greytraveller]

Greetings all
Multiple universe theory has been discussed on other forums. And after much consideration I have concluded that Occam's Razor basically precludes the likelihood of an infinite number of Parallel universes. The Multi Worlds Interpretation (MWI) of quantum physics posits that the universe splits into two exact copies every time a decision is made. I find this theory Much too cumbersome and unnecessarily complex.
IMO it is Much more plausible that there are nearly an infinite number of 1 dimensional timelines and 2 dimensional time planes, each a result of a decision made And a decision Not made. Or the result of an action taken and an action Not taken.
These timelines and time planes can be viewed and visited through remote viewing, OBEs and even dreams. Therefore it Is possible to view a potential future timeline that could become a future reality. But, alas, in my theory actual time travel is impossible. A person could project their mind into a past or future timeline but could Not physically project back to the past or forward into the future.

CFT, you wrote
"I'd like for wstein to describe the four universes, if you're ok with this, W."

Great idea ! I second the motion.

Regards
Grey

[wstein]

The Multi Worlds Interpretation (MWI) of quantum physics posits that the universe splits into two exact copies every time a decision is made. This is not the case. First it is based on 'observations' not 'decisions'. An 'observation' is basically just any quantum interaction between fundamental particles. The classic is a photon encounters a half mirrored surface. Second ALL possible outcomes (resultant quantum states) occur. As most particles are actually a spectrum of states, the split is multi-way, not binary in nature. As per the photon and the half mirror, it may initially seem that there are only two outcomes, reflection or refractive bend. However there is the possibility that the photon is absorbed by the atoms in the mirror. Additionally there are these particles popping in and out of the quantum foam that affect actual particles. Part of the quantum mechanics necessitates that you account for these temporary particles even though they are in a sense virtual and not real.

[wstein]

CFT, you wrote
"I'd like for wstein to describe the four universes, if you're ok with this, W."

Great idea ! I second the motion. I thought I covered that in post #12 (on page 2 of this thread). If you want more than that, ask more questions.

[MooSaysTheCat]

This is not the case. First it is based on 'observations' not 'decisions'. An 'observation' is basically just any quantum interaction between fundamental particles. The classic is a photon encounters a half mirrored surface. Second ALL possible outcomes (resultant quantum states) occur. As most particles are actually a spectrum of states, the split is multi-way, not binary in nature. As per the photon and the half mirror, it may initially seem that there are only two outcomes, reflection or refractive bend. However there is the possibility that the photon is absorbed by the atoms in the mirror. Additionally there are these particles popping in and out of the quantum foam that affect actual particles. Part of the quantum mechanics necessitates that you account for these temporary particles even though they are in a sense virtual and not real.


AAH...yes yes.. Hmm...I see, so that's how it is....I understand nothing.

I'm sorry but being not a very smart person myself, knowing next to nothing about what is described here and English being my second language....this is kind of impossible to understand...can you explain this in a dumb person friendly way please?

[MooSaysTheCat]

The Multi Worlds Interpretation (MWI) of quantum physics posits that the universe splits into two exact copies every time a decision is made. I find this theory Much too cumbersome and unnecessarily complex.


I agree with this....this theory always had something off about it. It's sounds simple it first...but then it becomes...messy. If there's something I know about nature and the world...is that it is NOT messy.

[ereus]

Why bother with alternate RTZ? Just go visit those parallel universes. Meet yourself, have a talk.

how does one do that?

[wstein]

I'm sorry but being not a very smart person myself, knowing next to nothing about what is described here and English being my second language....this is kind of impossible to understand...can you explain this in a dumb person friendly way please? Can't dumb it all the way down. Truthfully, no one alive today understands Quantum mechanics in full. In fact, though its put forth like its a theory, it actually a description based on observations. It works well in predicting outcomes but does not explain what is happening. Some of the smartest people in the world are using the biggest equipment ever built, and they still haven't figured it out. SO, don't feel like this reflects badly on your 'smarts'.

I will try to explain the basics. In the classical world (the one you know) things have a definite parameters (in terms of frequency, position, energy, momentum, etc). When things meet, some singular result happens (though you may not know what that is).

In the quantum world the everything is probabilistic. First particles (includes light) are actually a spread of possibilities (in terms of frequency, position, energy, momentum, etc). The possibilities are similar to the conventional ones you expect however, its all of them not a particular one. When these spreads of possibilities called particles meet, the result a new spread of possibilities.

So a more tangible analogy. The classical way of looking at things is like tossing two balls at each other. They either pass near each other continuing on their way or they collide and bounce of at an angle. There is a clear outcome to this event. The quantum view is more like throwing two buckets of water at each other. Water goes all over the place, some continues on, some bounces of at angles. If the original trajectories of the water are more or less a head on collision, more of the water will bounce off at angles. If the water is not well aimed, more of it will continue along its original trajectories. Some always passes by and some always bounces off. This happens regardless of the original trajectory of the water, even if the water tossed in opposite directions away from each other. Based on the original vector of each bucket of water, quantum mechanics can very accurately predict how much will pass through and how much will bounce in various directions.

The more accepted interpretation is that in the quantum view, 'things' are actually more like waves than particles. They bounce, refract, and pass through each other all the time, no big deal. Think ripples on the surface of a lake. The up and coming interpretation is that particles are real things but there is not one copy of everything, there are lots in parallel worlds. In each world 'that' particle is in a slightly different situation. When two particles meet, there are actually a vast number of very similar particles all meeting in nearly (not not exactly) the same way. As each is slightly different, the outcomes are slightly different. So in sense, 'that' particle meets another in all possible ways. The multiworlds interpretation is that actually each particle meets in a singular specific way but it has many twins that simultaneously meet in slightly different ways.

Its all counter intuitive. Either way, quantum mechanics suggest something that defies experience. Did one thing do multiple things at once or are there vast quantities of parallel worlds doing almost but not exactly the same thing at each instant?

Don't know if you are more or less confused at this point. Perhaps this will all be cleared up when the theory is complete. Right now all we have is a bunch of experiments that clearly show something really odd is happening at the smallest scale. Quantum mechanics is one explanation and possibly not the right one. All we know for sure is that its equations have allowed us to build all sorts of high tech devices (includes computers).

[wstein]

Why bother with alternate RTZ? Just go visit those parallel universes. Meet yourself, have a talk.
how does one do that? First you need to learn to get out fo the RTZ and go to other planes/dimensions. The most well known and easiest to reach are the 'astral planes'. There are many techniques like flying, teleporting, getting a guide, or setting your intended destination before you leave body. It really all comes down to intent. When you are out of body, you move with your intent. As such, any way you can envision moving can work. Pretty much only fear can stop you. The other thing that come up sometimes is that you don't have enough energy to stay out of body before reaching your destination. You can get started on that right here with Robert Bruce's work on the subject (Astral Dynamics) to learn about each of these travel techniques. His 'NEW' method covers how to raise more energy. Books, videos, and seminars are available depending on your preference.

[advanced] once you get out of body, you can pretty much go anywhere you want. The tricky part is if you don't know exactly where or what you want to see, how do you specify it? What works for me is to specify what you want to see/do. So in this case, indicate that you wish to visit one of parallel selves that is a female version of your current self. If there are any, it should be possible to meet one.

[very advanced] other types of destinations are possible, including time travel, being outside time, being outside of manifest reality, meet the creator of this universe, rummage in your higher self's memories. Possible destinations are only limited by your imagination. The only limitation is that is must be a part of reality somewhere.

[ereus]

First you need to learn to get out fo the RTZ and go to other planes/dimensions. The most well known and easiest to reach are the 'astral planes'. There are many techniques like flying, teleporting, getting a guide, or setting your intended destination before you leave body. It really all comes down to intent. When you are out of body, you move with your intent. As such, any way you can envision moving can work. Pretty much only fear can stop you. The other thing that come up sometimes is that you don't have enough energy to stay out of body before reaching your destination. You can get started on that right here with Robert Bruce's work on the subject (Astral Dynamics) to learn about each of these travel techniques. His 'NEW' method covers how to raise more energy. Books, videos, and seminars are available depending on your preference.

[advanced] once you get out of body, you can pretty much go anywhere you want. The tricky part is if you don't know exactly where or what you want to see, how do you specify it? What works for me is to specify what you want to see/do. So in this case, indicate that you wish to visit one of parallel selves that is a female version of your current self. If there are any, it should be possible to meet one.

[very advanced] other types of destinations are possible, including time travel, being outside time, being outside of manifest reality, meet the creator of this universe, rummage in your higher self's memories. Possible destinations are only limited by your imagination. The only limitation is that is must be a part of reality somewhere.

Interesting, I wonder if it is possible to just make a body in one of the infinite parallel realities and live there, as that is my goal, but will the entities see me or will i be invisible like a normal astral projection in the real time zone, that would actually be a good test to see if it is as real as ours is if we are invisible. However off topic but is there a way to learn a language instantly in the astral?

[greytraveller]

Greetings all

Have been busy lately so please excuse the gap in replying to previous posts in this thread.

wstein,
Yes indeed you did expound on the 4 types of universes and I had simply overlooked it.
The original MWI as conceived by Everett in the 1950s (and still embraced by many 'mainstream' QM scientists) is indeed based on observations of quantum states. Later, altered versions of MWI involved the notion that the universe can actually replicate itself based on the decisions and actions of individuals. This theory is usually called multi-mind theory (or math Sums over History Theory ???). It is to this latter theory to which I was referring in my opinion regarding the possibility of time travel.
And, Yes, you are correct in asserting the QM is Not yet understood. Even Einstein was a disbeliever and said the "God does not play dice with the universe" (meaning that QM was too random a theory to be taken seriously.)
So scientists have yet to understand how quantum entanglement works or explain how subatomic particles can pop in and out of a particular area of space and then reappear on the other side of the galaxy. If any of this is true then it does indeed violate the speed of light limitation. Yet so far this remains a Big mystery.

Regards
Grey