Evocation By Physical Ritual Vs Astral Projection

[journeyman]

Hello,

I've searched all over the internet and books on the subject but found very little information/discussion for the issue pointed out in the title.

Assume many magicians can do astral projection, so why the obsession and sole focus on traditional rituals on the physical plane, years after years of experiment just to get the "sense" (heat, light etc.) and poor communication of the evoked being while forcing it to manifest in a physical substance? Or say they have great clairvoyance ability and clearly see or have rare skill to make spirits manifest themselves in a purely physical forms, even, why all these overwhelming preparations while one can go to meet with the being in its own habitat? Rather doing egoistic come to my plane psycho-drama.

Besides the evocation, take "sigils"; after preparation of a sigil, operator meditates etc. for hours to reach gnosis, but isn't the astral projection is a gnosis state, as some call it natural ecstasy? So one can fire a sigil effectively and easily on the astral plane right?

I think i am missing a point, i just could not understand, astral projection is roughly defined as "explorations" on the astral realm, you can go and fly around but in order to do magick turn back to the physical plane and do it in hard way, use 10x power to visualization for manifestation (actually it's goal is to creation of thought form in the astral plane, imho) rather than doing it deliberately and more powerful in astral?

I am not arguing the 'choice' of such individuals, a person can do both and may like the physical rituals most. My point is there are numerous information for evocation and other types of magical practices to operate on the physical plane, and fairly good amount of information for astral projection. But these two hardly merges. Even the goal of most physical rituals is to 'touch' the astral

Sorry, it was a long message, but was occupying my mind for a long time.

[Dreamweaver]

It has to do with grounding the manifestation on the concrete. Earthing it. Also if you explore more of the information available on magic ritual you find that there is astral practice.

[DarkChylde]

Assume many magicians can do astral projection
that's both an assumption and a huge generalization.


so why the obsession and sole focus on traditional rituals on the physical plane, years after years of experiment just to get the "sense" (heat, light etc.) and poor communication of the evoked being while forcing it to manifest in a physical substance? Or say they have great clairvoyance ability and clearly see or have rare skill to make spirits manifest themselves in a purely physical forms, even, why all these overwhelming preparations while one can go to meet with the being in its own habitat? Rather doing egoistic come to my plane psycho-drama.
Practicing or making a ritual isn't limited to and/or summoning other world denizens.
Spell-craft and Majick rituals require study , steady discipline , understanding and years of practice , to call it out as "egoistic psycho drama" is very rude and implies snide derision.Be very careful of how you describe what you are putting into account hereafter.
:arrow: We have rules for this. (http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/faq.php?faq=boardrules)


Besides the evocation, take "sigils"; after preparation of a sigil, operator meditates etc. for hours to reach gnosis, but isn't the astral projection is a gnosis state, as some call it natural ecstasy? So one can fire a sigil effectively and easily on the astral plane right?
Firstly Sigils aren't made for evocation majick only , uses are myriad.
Secondly I haven't even heard of going into AP and shooting off sigils ,that said, gnosis , altered states of consciousness and altered sensorium are all but means to break into the subconscious , from where on one can connect to the web of possibility and work with it.


I think i am missing a point, i just could not understand, astral projection is roughly defined as "explorations" on the astral realm, you can go and fly around but in order to do magick turn back to the physical plane and do it in hard way, use 10x power to visualization for manifestation (actually it's goal is to creation of thought form in the astral plane, imho) rather than doing it deliberately and more powerful in astral?
Again huge* assumption , from what I understand most people lack conscious control in the astral , let alone get to go about and act out coordinated acts of majick.Yet further still there stands the fact that ritual can be practiced whenever wherever at will , whereas most people cannot get into AP at will whenever they please.


I am not arguing the 'choice' of such individuals, a person can do both and may like the physical rituals most. My point is there are numerous information for evocation and other types of magical practices to operate on the physical plane, and fairly good amount of information for astral projection. But these two hardly merges. Even the goal of most physical rituals is to 'touch' the astral
At point you are saying both astral projection and ritual majick are the same and at other you're saying the two "hardly merge".
Source of information on any given subject does not automatically mean it's either possible , practical or easier.It simply means there's just more information , that's it.



Sorry, it was a long message, but was occupying my mind for a long time.
If you could write out in clarity what exactly is it that underlies your query , it'd help garner greater reply.

[journeyman]

that's both an assumption and a huge generalization.

Practicing or making a ritual isn't limited to and/or summoning other world denizens.
Spell-craft and Majick rituals require study , steady discipline , understanding and years of practice , to call it out as "egoistic psycho drama" is very rude and implies snide derision.Be very careful of how you describe what you are putting into account hereafter.
:arrow: We have rules for this. (http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/faq.php?faq=boardrules)



Sorry about it, i was just read an evocation journal that belongs to 1970s and felt that spirits does not like to manifest or take form in a physical substance, as it agonize. Besides, operator was insulting and offending the spirit verbally all the way, probably the account's influence affected my manner in original post.




If you could write out in clarity what exactly is it that underlies your query , it'd help garner greater reply.


Thanks. I will try to be more specific and without generalization or assumptions.

If a practitioner has the ability of astral projection, and lack the clair-sense abilities in the physical or no possibility to arrange a temple and tools for a ritual, can s/he use preferred catalog of spirits to meet them in the astral plane?

It does not matter, if to get physical results there need to be physical medium. Just Q&A with spirits is enough.

If so, is there any significant disadvantage in quality of communication compared to physical.

Actually, i was not addressing sigils as spirit seals. I was talking about Osman Spare's sigil magick. But i get your point.

Finally, i found that, creating a thought form of desired outcome in the astral plane has explained by Koetting in his book, Become a Living God, so it is out of question now.

Thanks in advance.

[DarkChylde]

If a practitioner has the ability of astral projection, and lacks other the clair-sense abilities in the physical or if for them it's not possibility to arrange a temple and tools for a ritual, would it then be possible for them to use preferred catalog of spirits to meet them in the astral plane?

*Quote above is edited.I'm assuming that is what you meant to ask.

If such aforementioned person can AP at will anytime he/she wants , I'm quite sure the odds of them running into or getting into touch with spirits or entities is quite possible.

There was once a time when AP wasn't as popular as seances were.People always have had the urge to communicate with those on other planes , mode of procedure as you can reckon varies.

I'd personally say do whatever it takes to get where you want to get , contact with entities for a simple Q&A or sigils for long complicated rituals.

Often times it is obstinacy that paid off the best for me .Be stubborn , never get let go of resolve , use whatever means possible.Limitations exist only in your mind.
Learn to hone your will let it reign supreme and let it do what it will by setting it free.