Lucid Dreams or Regular Dreams?

[TonyC]

Sometimes when I dream and wake up Im sometimes confused when I wake up as to if it was a lucid dream or not. In my dreams I always know that im dreaming and I do whatever I want to do in my dreams because I know im dreaming. But when I wake up and think of the dream I feel a sort of disassociation with it like I was watching the whole thing from a third person perspective instead of actually doing it myself. But at the time in the dream it was me doing all of this stuff but when I wake up It feels like I was watching it more like a movie than actually doing it myself. Are these Lucid Dreams or just strange regular dreams?

Thank's for any imput :)

[wstein]

Definitely Lucid Dreaming.

Its hard to tell from the basic "I do whatever I want to" as you may be having an "ordinary" dream about being powerful which would look and feel very similar to a lucid dream.

The key phrase is "because I know im dreaming". This is a definitive marker.

Also "I was watching the whole thing from a third person perspective" is a classic experience. Both third person and first person perspectives are common in lucid dreaming. Both at the same time are also possible (there are more exotic combinations). Sounds like you experienced first person in the dream state but chiefly remember third person upon waking.

Another clear marker (not mentioned) is if you change the dream (during the dream) as you want from the third person point of view.

[CFTraveler]

A lucid dream is classified as any dream that you have in which you know you are dreaming- regardless of degree of lucidity or control of it. Weirdness is usually the thing that makes you realize you're dreaming. The trick is to try to maintain it.

[CFTraveler]

Sorry for cross-posting, wstein. I had written the post, then got up and had to deal with something, and when I finally submitted it you had already posted yours.
I'm glad we agree. :)

[TonyC]

Thanks wstein and CFTraveler. I wasnt sure if knowing it was a dream fell into the Lucid dreaming catagory. By me saying "I do whatever I want to" I mean that I can fly, reverse time, change things at will (objects, attitudes), create things, and have psychic powers. Your probably thinking well he had to know this is a lucid dream, but my usual lucid dream consist of first person perspective and I dont feel a disassociation from my more common lucid dreams.

[CFTraveler]

Maybe you did some 'projecting from a dream'- I have had the third person experience but not in a lucid dream. Maybe a sort of phasing?

[wstein]

Many people get the strong impression that control or alteration is required to make it lucid. This is not the case. Only awareness of dreaming is required. It is only a small step from there to realize (cause) your full consciousness to become available. At that point control is possible.

Sounds like TonyC that you have actually gotten pretty far in mastering lucid dreaming.

Many years back, I spent a lot of time on lucid dreaming. It is very possible to be both first and third person consciousnesses at the same time. In addition either (usually the third person view) can simultaneously edit the content of the dream. Additionally, it is possible to remember both streams of consciousness after waking up.

Many people who stick with this get all caught up in alteration aspect. While this is certainly fun, it is not the only possibility. In realistic dreams, I like to use the third person view to watch myself in action. Its rare to get a truly objective view of oneself.

Note also that the 'lucid' mode can be activated while fully awake. Obviously the dream part would not be there. Control and alteration during lucid awakeness (is there a term for this?) seems to be lacking or at least much harder.

I do not think the third person view is the same as phasing. I have not experienced any qualitative differences between the first and third person views. While I have not done phasing per se, I have done other types of consciousness/awareness projection which are quite different from lucid dreaming. Also lucid awakeness is third person lucidity and definitely confined to material reality.

--------------------------
WARNING VERY ADVANCED AND NOT WITHOUT RISKS

Some ideas about what else to do.

Once one gets to the point of consistent lucid dreaming and alteration, many other things become possible. As mentioned one is to project into an OBE (not tried personally).

Additional consciousnesses first or third person are possible. Watching of the third person watcher is also possible. I never mastered more than three simultaneous consciousnesses.

Taking of other forms is an interesting experience. Try being a fog for a fun one.

I had this brilliant idea once. Apparently so dangerous that my subconscious (or something else) shut down lucid dreaming for months. My idea was use the third person awareness to alter my first person dreamer/awareness so that it could alter material reality. If someone gets this to work without destroying themselves. please let me know.

[TonyC]

By "My idea was use the third person awareness to alter my first person dreamer/awareness so that it could alter material reality." Do you mean alter the dream reality or alter waking reality?

On a side note I do remember both the first person perspective and the third person perspective but I usually dont leave the area where im located at in the dream. As for me getting pretty far in mastering lucid dreaming every since I can remember as far as when I was about 4 or 5 Ive been Lucid Dreaming. I can manipulate my surroundings and everything I can see in my dreams. I would not go as far as to call myself a master do to the fact that I havnt taught people how to have lucid dreams and even then there is always room for improvement such as visiting other peoples dreams, and converting a lucid dream to a obe. I think I have had a few obe's thru converted lucid dreams but I cant recall one right off the bat considering everything in my dreams are so weird by other some peoples standards.

[wstein]

By "My idea was use the third person awareness to alter my first person dreamer/awareness so that it could alter material reality." Do you mean alter the dream reality or alter waking reality?

Third person lucid dreamer modifies first person lucid dreamer so that first person lucid dreamer can modify waking reality.

[Freawaru]

Note also that the 'lucid' mode can be activated while fully awake. Obviously the dream part would not be there. Control and alteration during lucid awakeness (is there a term for this?) seems to be lacking or at least much harder.


There are two possibilities to do this. I name them Personal Witness and Impersonal Witness in agreement with the terminology from Advaita Vedanta. The Personal Witness is easy to devellop, you maintain an increasing lucidity of mindfull observation. This happens, I think, automatically, in every lucid dream. The dream personality splits into the dream created part and the lucid wake part, that seem like two different persons, the first person not neccessarily being your usual personality (f.e. I changed the first person into Buffy, the Vampire slayer from the lucid Personal Witness, i.e. the "third person". The third person (Personal Witness) is the same personality as your usual personality, i.e. same morals, desires, etc. One can take control from the Personal Witness in wake just as in dreams, though at the beginning the lucidity tends to be broken when one does, in wake just as in dream.

The Impersonal Witness, as the name suggests, is NOT your usual personality, though. It has no desires and morals. It just observes. There is a variation of the Impersonal Witness that takes control and that is VERY weird. I have only experienced this controlling version once during wake. It is as if you awake AGAIN, as if you awake from being awake. As if your normal wake personality is just a dream-created one. From the Impersonal Controller one can alter anything in your own mind, one can control all the bodies simultaniously and stuff like that. But once this Impersonal Lucidity is gone one has a problem to remember it all - just as in a non-lucid dream it is hard to remember the "real" world.



I had this brilliant idea once. Apparently so dangerous that my subconscious (or something else) shut down lucid dreaming for months. My idea was use the third person awareness to alter my first person dreamer/awareness so that it could alter material reality. If someone gets this to work without destroying themselves. please let me know.

There is something about this in the book "Tibetan yoga of dream and sleep" by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. But they, too, devellop the Impersonal Witness first. They call the Impersonal Witness the "Clear Light".

[CFTraveler]

I still don't get how altering both lucid dreamer viewpoints would affect waking reality other than changing the perception of waking reality, aka inducing psychosis. Is that what you mean?

[wstein]

Only one lucid dreamer is modified. The third person lucid dreamer does not get modified.

Lucid dreamers do not easily modify themselves. However, the third person watcher can easily modify the dreamscape or anyone in it including the first person lucid dreamer. Normally the modification only affects the dreamscape. The idea is to add capabilities to the first person lucid dreamer to allow him/her to modify the physical landscape in a similar manner.

[sash]

Wouldn't those abilities be limited to the lucid-self, not its physical counterpart? For instance, using third person perspective to change the state of the first person dreamer, but it has limited affect on the physical waking self (e.g. giving the first person dreamer the ability to fly or transform would not be inherited by the physical self).

I think lucidity comes in levels. It is possible to know you are dreaming but not have enough lucidity to control the environment (or think of controlling the environment as such), but it is also possible to be fully present in the environment such as in physical (and recall tends to be better too).

[CFTraveler]

Thanks for your replies, guys.

[TonyC]

Ill have to at least try that one time wstein. Although I dont know when ill get around to it, need to have more focus in some of my lucid dreams.

[WhoAmI911]

Based on Mastering Astral Projection by Robert Bruce.
What he says in his book:
"Another slightly less complicated method of converting lucid dreams into OBEs requires simulating the feeling of falling within the dream itself. To use this technique, cross your dream arms across your dream chest once you realize you are dreaming. Relax your body, then allow yourself to fall backward as if dropping back onto a bed or into someone's waiting arms. When this method is effective, the dream imaginary will usually disappear and you will find yourself falling through a void or through some blurred astral environment. You can then explore from there."
Here is my dream.
Journey to the Hospital.
I am leaving my parent's apartment in Poland with two suitcases in my hands. I am going back to Port Moody, Canada where I live now. Before I leave this place I have to go through customs. There is only one custom officer in my parent's apartment and he is checking my suitcases now.
Inspection doesn't find anything illegal. but he likes my ties, that I have a lot in my closet. I am letting him to choose one he likes. He chooses one that I like too. I explain to him that all of my ties come from Europe and some of them from Germany. Now I find myself outside of the building with two suitcases in my hands.
Suspecting that this is a dream I start repeating aloud:
"I am dreaming... I am dreaming..." Now being awaken in my dream I drop my suitcases onto the ground, cross my hands on my dream chest and fall backward. As soon I reach horizontal position an unknown force starts dragging me. I float in the air close to the ground on my back with my head first. I am moving very fast and my trip lasts for a while. During that time I start getting rid of my under-ware by pulling it through my sleeves throwing it away in all directions.
Finally after slowing down I find myself on a bed with wheels in a hallway of an unknown hospital.
There are two man around me waiting for my awakening. One man close to me, standing at my legs is a doctor and has a round face. He is looking at me. Another one is shorter, slim stands a little away from me. He has tired dark eyes and doesn't look like a doctor. Doctor explains to me that the other man is a scientist, an inventor of a method I just used (falling backward and traveling). "I don't use this method anymore" says slim inventor to me. "Is lucid dreaming for me?" I ask him. "I do not recommend, it is too strong for you" he responds."What about flying?"
I ask him now. "May be" he answers. Now I am telling him how in my two other lucid dreams I failed to visit Pure Land Paradise. I was traveling consciously through the space passing the Moon piercing black clouds twice. "There were no clouds" he remarked abruptly. He was absolutely right!. They were not just the clouds. I was piercing some kind of a misty tar. I new it was a test for me to pass another dimension on my way to Pure Land.
Now I know that I have to shorten my story about my trip to Pure Land because I am running out of time and I will have to wake up any moment. With that thought in my mind I wake up.
I have an intention to continue using the same method of falling backward in the future. I am curious what place I will find myself in, the next time. I have already prepared a few questions whatever or whomever I will meet there.
Excuse my English which is not my first language.
[link removed as per min. 20 post rule]

[Martin]

I have difficulty too. Today and yesterday I had kind of my first fully blown lucid dreams :mrgreen: . Anyway, I always realise I am dreaming, do the nose RC, and then get caught up in the story and kind of lose lucidity. Or at least, I think I lost lucidity afterwards. There is no telling wether I really was lucid from that point on. I'm guessing the problems will disappear when memory improves.