Dissolution of Character

[DerFürst]

The concept that meditation on awareness dissolves attributes that contribute to the sense of self (otherwise referred to as the ego) is something I have become aware of through experience. The person I've always wanted to be, funny enough, is only something I can be when the concepts of "I" and "becoming" are dropped.

Continuing to meditate will answer all these questions by dissolving their meaning anyway, but for the sake of the mind's pondering, let's suppose there's a problem needing to be solved. How does one going about living life refrain from being the person experiencing it? In the absence of "me," what's left behind treats people with far more compassion and love than the self-destructive striver and doer "me" ever does. There is an idea floating around my head that says "mindfulness is cultivated through mindfulness meditation, and so the sense of awareness will be more prevalent in all aspects of life as the practice unfolds."

The question here is how can I continue to stay mindful without the "I" in every day life? People, the thoughts they make, the technology they use, and many aspects of their society make this a difficult task, as it sucks the mind straight into its trap. What must happen before mindfulness can continue into the story of everyday life? Stuffing it into a separate portion called "meditation time" seems counter intuitive.

[ButterflyWoman]

The person I've always wanted to be, funny enough, is only something I can be when the concepts of "I" and "becoming" are dropped.
Yeah, it's like that, isn't it?


How does one going about living life refrain from being the person experiencing it? In the absence of "me," what's left behind treats people with far more compassion and love than the self-destructive striver and doer "me" ever does. There is an idea floating around my head that says "mindfulness is cultivated through mindfulness meditation, and so the sense of awareness will be more prevalent in all aspects of life as the practice unfolds."
You know, I don't know how to answer this, because I haven't gotten to the place of balance yet. I'm there sometimes, but a lot of the time, the distraction of the I-me-mine and the material goings-on pull me right back into the character of "me". Well, it is possible to get into a sort of blissed out, non-present state, which is very nice, but then nothing gets done because I can see all too well that nothing NEEDS to be done, because it's all perfect the way it is. And it is, but... yes. It's a dilemma. How do you stay present enough to play the dream-life-game, yet detached enough to not be dragged back into it all the time? To be, as St Paul wrote, in the world, but not of the world?

I don't know. For the moment, I have to say I think it's just something that evolves, something that is acquired. I can't even say it's learned, because that implies something that I don't think is probably possible. Maybe bits are learned, but for the most part, I suspect it's a maturing process where you eventually find the middlle path (thank you, Buddha) and, by whatever means, stay there most of the time, and eventually, all of the time.

Note: This view is subject to change, as are all of my views. This is just my current observation. :)

[Sinera]

I actually DO feel like Paul, "in but not of" the world. Yet, I can't say I feel or am enlightened in any way.

[CFTraveler]

Me too. Lol.

[ButterflyWoman]

Yet, I can't say I feel or am enlightened in any way.
So what does that feel like, exactly? I've been waiting for some great feeling of enlightenment for a long time now, but all I really experience is a big shift in perspective. Is that it? How would I know if it was or it wasn't? *shrug* Such is the problem of the word and even the concept of "enlightenment". Whatever it is.

[CFTraveler]

I guess I'm enlightened on how I really know I don't know anything......

[DerFürst]

The disappointment you all seem to feel :). I don't know about anyone else, but I've been so disappointed with life that living in non-appointment seems a better option, if better were ever a thing.

I cannot say that I was ever looking, striving, or hoping to go down this road. Rather, it seems like it's a process that intention aligns with to avoid extra hassle, and not something acted upon by volition. Waking up to realizing nothing... that seems like a great deal. You get to keep learning nothing forever, as you have been, but without the extra hassle of feeling like you need to.

But belief systems are temporary. Once they're used up, they seem to drop away like they were never there. I guess the only thing left for "me" to do is keep at it and not worry about all the details so much.

[ButterflyWoman]

The disappointment you all seem to feel
Kind of. But it's a shallow kind of disappointment. Meaning, it's petty and silly. The satisfaction and depth of perception far outweighs it. But, yeah, I did want choirs of singing angels to command or... I dunno. Something. Maybe making it rain chocolate. It's like, "I experienced spiritual awakening and all I got was this t-shirt, which I know is an illusion". :)


I don't know about anyone else, but I've been so disappointed with life that living in non-appointment seems a better option, if better were ever a thing.
Agreed.


I cannot say that I was ever looking, striving, or hoping to go down this road. Rather, it seems like it's a process that intention aligns with to avoid extra hassle, and not something acted upon by volition. Waking up to realizing nothing... that seems like a great deal. You get to keep learning nothing forever, as you have been, but without the extra hassle of feeling like you need to.
Yes. Exactly. And I didn't choose this road, either. I don't think anyone really does. It chooses you. Or you're chosen for it. Or made for it. Or something along those lines.


But belief systems are temporary. Once they're used up, they seem to drop away like they were never there. I guess the only thing left for "me" to do is keep at it and not worry about all the details so much.
You've got it. :)

[Dreamweaver]

So.... hmmm. Confusion. Is this thread about non-attainment/non-attachment, and being fully and peacefully present as a non-reactive Observer?

[ButterflyWoman]

So.... hmmm. Confusion. Is this thread about non-attainment/non-attachment, and being fully and peacefully present as a non-reactive Observer?
I thought it was about finding the middle path, the balance.

[John Sorensen]

The concept that meditation on awareness dissolves attributes that contribute to the sense of self (otherwise referred to as the ego) is something I have become aware of through experience. The person I've always wanted to be, funny enough, is only something I can be when the concepts of "I" and "becoming" are dropped.

Continuing to meditate will answer all these questions by dissolving their meaning anyway, but for the sake of the mind's pondering, let's suppose there's a problem needing to be solved. How does one going about living life refrain from being the person experiencing it? In the absence of "me," what's left behind treats people with far more compassion and love than the self-destructive striver and doer "me" ever does. There is an idea floating around my head that says "mindfulness is cultivated through mindfulness meditation, and so the sense of awareness will be more prevalent in all aspects of life as the practice unfolds."

The question here is how can I continue to stay mindful without the "I" in every day life? People, the thoughts they make, the technology they use, and many aspects of their society make this a difficult task, as it sucks the mind straight into its trap. What must happen before mindfulness can continue into the story of everyday life? Stuffing it into a separate portion called "meditation time" seems counter intuitive.


"I" will throw my 50 cents into this topic.

Firstly "being present", that is, present in this moment, not in conceptual thought really has nothing to do with "I" this or that.

You are either present in the moment, or denying the moment, resisting it etc.

So that is two different things.

As for "I", we are individuals who are part of a greater whole. As such we are here to experience life, no part of us is broken or wrong, or bad, unless you choose to believe that, and that is all that, a "belief".

If a belief is a "program" that runs in the software of your mind, that helps to filter your perception of the material reality (which is all just vibration / energy), then all you need do for any belief is ask yourself:
"How does this belief make me feel?"

Your feelings are a guidance system that never lie to you. If a belief makes you feel expanded and good and wonderful then great, why not use it, not matter what anyone else says.

If a belief makes you feel terrible and bad and broken or evil or limited or separate from "Life", then would you want to hold on to this belief and defend it?

If there is one fallacy perhaps I can suggest, it is that there is this Western understanding of Eastern mysticism that for some reason (I'm guessing it originated in the 60s cross-cultural pollination) in the West we call "Ego" or "I" = bad.

This to me is a misunderstanding. What you call Ego, or I, is the part of you that faces outward and deals with your every day physical reality.

If you "defeated" the ego or any such thing, if it "went away", your adult (not a baby) body would be like a vehicle with no driver that drifts aimlessly. When we dream/ sleep or meditate, we shift our conscious attention away from our outward facing local self, to our expanded larger self, or authentic self that exists outside of physical reality.

What we call "I", here and now, is only a small portion of who/what we are. It is the portion that is here to live and love and experience life, why would we want to call it a villain or bad is beyond me.

No part of any person is "false" or bad or evil. All parts are ESSENTIAL to the design of the living universe.

Now, here we live day to day, whether we are present in our actions or not, or lost in conceptual thought is another matter.

Personally I prefer to be present in my actions, especially with other people. Is this something you become? No, it is just a way of being, a choice in how you use your conscious attention.

It is only natural in a quiet environment, your mind naturally settle down. Thoughts die down, mind "movement" becomes mind "stillness" without any effort or meditation etc. Just sit at a park and watch some ducks and see how your body entrains with the environment.

Now, in a busy/noisy environment (which is un-natural for human beings, in our nature based cave man bodies) it is quite "natural" to be unbalanced, frustrated, annoyed, fearful, angry etc because our bodies were not made to handle such over-stimulation. In an over-stimulating / stressful environment (such as work) our bodies entrain with the dominant frequency of people in that environment. (Which is why I meditate for maybe 10 mins on breaks at work).

We can improve our mindfulness even in loud and stressful environments to a limited extent, but a better solution is be in a natural environment, as this is how our bodies were meant to function.

Mountain top sitting meditation gurus don't have to deal with business meetings, deadlines, annoying family members, constant noise, barking neighbours dogs that never get walked and so never bloody well stop barking etc.

[CFTraveler]

If there is one fallacy perhaps I can suggest, it is that there is this Western understanding of Eastern mysticism that for some reason (I'm guessing it originated in the 60s cross-cultural pollination) in the West we call "Ego" or "I" = bad.

This to me is a misunderstanding. What you call Ego, or I, is the part of you that faces outward and deals with your every day physical reality. I second this notion. Since in the present paradigm we tend to dualize everything, starting with ancient good vs bad gods to the point of creating a powerful 'devil' to pit against Christ, and continuing on to the present paradigm, what us westerners have done is to take the notion of the 'ego', coined by Freud and Jung to mean the self in its mature point of being, and assigned all of the negative qualities that Freud and Jung would have called Id (not Ego) and renamed it the Ego, to have something to blame, as 'devil' is no longer in fashion, and most contemporary spiritual groups would call you 'superstitious' if you said the devil made you do it, but would nod in agreement if you say the same thing and call it 'ego'.
Which is too bad, because it defeats the purpose of spirituality.

[DerFürst]

Words are incredibly tricky. Soon as you let one thought in, they multiply like rabbits.

Alright, let me see if I can get this back on track. Unlike what the thread title might have suggested, this is not about killing the ego, vilifying it, or praising the idea of selflessness. Those ideas are very tricky and can get people stuck. The "ego death" here does not refer to a "brutal and righteous revenge against something evil," but rather the gentle dissolution of the attachment to concepts. Thoughts arise instantaneously to fit the content of the moment, though the mind takes credit for creating them. Awareness, which is not of the mind, views this mind, though the mind believe that it is the source of this awareness. This is what I meant. The mental attachment to all the things which are viewed by awareness, not getting rid of the things themselves.

Rather, this thread is asking how to take mindfulness wherever, whether it somewhere noisy or quiet. The ego is absolutely necessary for this existence, and "killing it" would literally be suicide since it's a packaged deal with life. The idea here was how to take mindfulness outside of meditation and into the world, where the mind can become very easily distracted and drag mindfulness down with it. We've all experienced that zombie-like state where we believe we're only the mind, and as a result, become stuck in our egos. Once again, I'm not saying "ego bad, no self good." That's another trap. I'm simply referring to the letting of all these things be as they are, allowing them to flow without resistance, especially outside of the practice of meditation.

We can still have our concepts and play with them as we like, but I just don't want to get stuck in them all the time. I don't have much experience of being mindful outside of meditation, and I was asking how I could bring mindfulness other places as well.

[Dreamweaver]

Ok.... here's some hands on mindfulness practices: One is to start with an idea and write it down, and then write everything down that occurs to you that is associated... continue to write spontaneous associations, filling an entire page, and as you do, observe the stream of ideas. Observe that there may be threads of connection that pick up and drop off, note that the idea at the beginning of the page likely is unrelated to the idea at the end. This is stream of consciousness.

Each thought is like a leaf that falls onto a flowing stream. There are thousands of leaves falling onto the water and flowing away. If you pick up a leaf it gets bigger, you notice more closely its characteristics and you may form an opinion about it. If you just stand and observe the motion of the leaves as they fall there is no attachment to any one leaf, but an observation of process, pattern and flow.

Now - go out on a walk into a busy part of town or in nature where there are many beautiful things to observe. Just observe the flow, color, movement - but let the 'objects of consciousness' be like the leaves. Everything flows around, through and away.

Try reading your life like a dream for a day. Look for symbolism and metaphor - be on the lookout for synchronicity. Notice how this changes your perspective and increases being in the now - less going into autopilot like mindstates. Notice how you make meaning with what you observe, try on different meaning filters the next day you stay aware in your life dream.

These three things are active practice of mindfulness... there are a lot more fun things to try - google mindfulness techniques.

These practices change one's worldview.... shifting to center and increases identification with the 'kernel' instead of the 'chaff,' in everyday, mundane life.

[I-stone]

I like it Dreamweaver.
I was very selfless (in the literal sense of the word), it felt wrong to say I. Mostly it was because I found such an amazing wealth of good things when attachments and opinions were removed. I liked that I could be anyone I wished at any time. Really in retrospect it is so different from ordinary living I cant even begin. What made me decide to change gears from a cosmic being who literally felt the confines of the the universe.. well for one, there is plenty of time for me to explore the cosmos later, and two, the knowledge of form is valuable knowledge. Form is just a tool. The only trap is when we become attached to things, then we are tied to it. The body and self is a tool for experience, and you are whatever you believe, or better, know you are. In deep meditation that is all that everything is composed of, knowing.

[I-stone]

Most people can inhabit form easy with sex. Sex is too disruptive for me. But when I was in hawaii I began to apnea dive 'freedive'. It is the first thing in this world to really interest me. I think it may be the best way to practice mindfulness. It is the most intensely 'here, now' meditation I could imagine. The balance to it is sitting meditation observing yourself in outside perspective (progressively going to 2nd 3rd, 4th+ person observation).

On the other subject.. I bet you guys HAVE had 'choirs of singing angels to command'. My experiences are vast, I forget that fact all the time.