Random Musings...

[Daisy]

Some things I wonder about in relation to OBE's-

-If a person is born with a disability such as deafness or blindness...can they see/hear when "out?"
-What about someone born with an intellectual disability? Are the disabilities linked just to the physical world? If not, any thoughts why that would be?
-What about gender identity-does that carry over to the astral? Are males still males and females still females, or are we all just genderless spiritual beings? Is gender a physical thing only?
-What about sex? Does it exist in the astral? If so, how does that work? What if a person is gay in the physical world...are they still so when out? Going a step further...is it possible that gay people are so because of carryover from previous lives as the opposite gender?
-Is it possible that someone can die and not know they are dead? It's a common them in movies, but in reality, I don't see how that could happen.
-Here in the physical we families, jobs, an array of entertainment...what about out there? I'm sure no form of money is necessary but I would think we would have to have some sort of purpose/job/responsibilities and pleasures...we can't just float around being spirits all of the time with no reason for being, right? Or do we just keep reincarnating?

I could probably come up with more but that's enough for now. :)

[CFTraveler]

I couldn't know any of the answers, but I have a few thoughts on some of them.

-If a person is born with a disability such as deafness or blindness...can they see/hear when "out?" Robert has reported when talking to blind people, that the ones that are blind from birth can't see, but they can map out a location in the same way we do with 'radar'. It's why he developed NEW.
-
What about gender identity-does that carry over to the astral? Are males still males and females still females, or are we all just genderless spiritual beings? Is gender a physical thing only?Carl Jung seemed to think that the soul is nongendered, and when we express (manifest) as one gender, the other 'side' becomes a subconscious drive- anima for the guys and animus for the girls. I don't think this has to do with sexual tendencies, but with gender characteristics.

-What about sex? Does it exist in the astral? Yes it does, most of us have done it. I have, so I know it exists.

If so, how does that work? It depends on which plane you are. If you are on the realtime zone it's almost like 'regular' sex. It certainly is physical. In the astral it's more of a merging of bodies, and the exchange is more like wonderful energy.

What if a person is gay in the physical world...are they still so when out? I don't think so, because I'm straight and I've had encounters with 'female' energy. And believe me, I don't like women that much.

Going a step further...is it possible that gay people are so because of carryover from previous lives as the opposite gender? That used to be a popular theory but I don't believe it. Being gay has been demonstrated to be a physical 'genes' and/or 'brain' thing, even though religious people don't want to believe so. Moreover, I am a believer in pre-choosing your experience- I think that we pre-decide what kinds of experiences we're going to have, and choose the vessel that we're going to incarnate in. So we may choose a set of parents that are going to produce an offspring of certain genetic characteristics, not necessarily as a carryover from before, but to have a specific (series of) experience(s).
But then, I don't believe in karma as advertised either, so...

-Is it possible that someone can die and not know they are dead? It's a common them in movies, but in reality, I don't see how that could happen.
I can see how that could happen no problem. First of all, we don't think in dreams the same way we think when we're awake, and I think it's quite possible we don't think the same way when we don't have a body at all. We think linearly now, later, here, there, you, me, etc. because of the prefrontal cortex. When that's turned off (as in when we have nonlucid dreams) we have no capacity (or very diminished, it's a matter of degree) to discern 'right', 'wrong', 'strange' or 'normal'. To the subconscious everything is normal. If we have the same kind of faculties (universal 'everything' knowledge) when we are discarnate, we don't pay attention to detail, because we perceive everything at the same time. So I can see how someone can die in their sleep and not notice they're not alive- everything they perceive can be seen as a dream, and their experience can be as unreal as it can be and still not register in their 'brains' that time passed or that people are behaving a certain way, because they're literally in their own little world, until someone comes to snap them out of it. Which is what retrievals are all about.
You should read (if you're intellectually inclined) the Unanswered Question by Kurt Leland. It is quite enlightening in regards to your last question, and wonderful mind candy. I highly recommend it.

[Daisy]

Interesting responses, thank you. It's all such unknown territory for me right now. I'm anxious to learn. I will look up that book. I just acquired another book of his, Otherwhere, and have just started reading it.

[CFTraveler]

He's a great author. I loved Otherwhere.

[eyeoneblack]

I have some reservations posting this. Like I say at the bottom: Sometimes I just like to think and write and while away the morning.

There is certainly a difference between a common dream and an LD&etc. For years I have made the distinction along psychological lines. I am learning now it's not that simple. We know our common dreams are driven by the subconscious which is why they can be so bizarre and recall is more difficult. They are largely symbolic and good fodder for interpretation (but, let me add here that I really don't think another person or book can say much of any use about the dream to the dreamer - stay away from dream interp books.) The LD&etc. has a much different aspect and more akin to reasonable and rational experience and recall can be nigh complete.

What I just said is widely debatable and when talking with others I avoid making any distinction - using the generic 'dream' for any account of a dreamer's experience, so as to leave that 'can of worms' unopened. It is best to let the story reveal itself.

On another group a member posted what I took for a dream. I read his account and pondered on it for a few days while other members responded to it. Finally, I posted that I had never in all these years read a dream like that and asked the 'dreamer' if it was really a dream (I suspected some psychoactive drug was involved) and he replied that it wasn't really a dream at all, denied there was any drug involved and that it was a waking and recurring experience. I suppose it was some sort of hallucination and deeply psychological. I'm just thinking here of an example of how tricky that 'can of worms' can be.

As for my own experience I'm pretty tidy about classifying my dream experiences, but if in my journal I report I had an AP or an OBE I can pretty sure somebody else will cast doubt upon it. So, leave it be.

I said at the beginning that I am re-evaluating the dream experience to include a psychological facet regardless of whether we're talking dream, LD, AP or OBE. We can't deny that we are not influenced by the literature we read, and I believe it is rather remarkable how the various authors of this genre are in fairly good agreement about the dimensional qualities of their experiences - there is a consensus, broadly speaking, between their experiences in story and landscape.

My critical mind says there is something suspect here and I'll point my finger at an underlying psychology, or better, collective unconscious. Take, for example, the reports of UFO sightings. From the first (1940s, maybe early 50s) UFOs were saucer shaped. However now, as technology advanced, so have the UFOs. I doubt seriously that alien ships have progressed in such a way. More than likely, technology has influenced the collective unconscious to incorporate a new imagination.

The same must be true of our explorations of the OtherWhere. Fortunately we have even a longer history to examine. What did ancient Eastern Mystics discover in their explorations? How do we compare, say, the Bhagavad-Gita to the Bardos of Tibetan mysticism to Theosophists such as Annie Bessant to, say, Robert Monroe? Are they talking about the same thing? Can we agree, at least, that these revelations speak to Otherwhere of sorts? Yes, we can because the dimensions haven't morphed over time (an assumption) but the stories have changed a great deal just as society has changed over the centuries.

To a great extent we have lost the mystical/spiritual component in favor of a descriptive, dare I say empirical, report of Otherwhere. (I love that word - it's Leland's isn't it?) So when I say we need to bring back the psychological component I mean to re-integrate the whole of our self ( a subjective observer) to better understand our individual experiences.

This meditation began with the self revelation of an old dream which long ago I couched as a strange AP without thinking of its possible significance in my emotional life. Whether or not we would call it a mind-split or bilocation is far from the point. What am I to think of Sinera's simultaneous awareness of being both in bed and in the dreamscape? Does it really matter? It's been a hot topic for years and has become integrated into the collective unconscious and so that is the appearance, in these times, of the experience.

This being a work in progress it can only represent another step along the way for me. Besides, sometimes I just like to think and write and while away the morning.

Your thoughts are most welcome.

[Sinera]

My critical mind says there is something suspect here and I'll point my finger at an underlying psychology, or better, collective unconscious. Take, for example, the reports of UFO sightings. From the first (1940s, maybe early 50s) UFOs were saucer shaped. However now, as technology advanced, so have the UFOs. I doubt seriously that alien ships have progressed in such a way. More than likely, technology has influenced the collective unconscious to incorporate a new imagination.
I don't think this is accurate. Today we also still have lots of saucer types and early sightings also have other forms (cigar shaped etc.). The saucer-disk-type just became somewhat the archetype, overall symbol or cultural "meme" for the extraterrestial UFO in general.

But I agree that the observers/experiencers psychology might indeed play a role. It might also be used by the ETs regarding memory encryption, esp. with abduction where a mind control aspect is sometimes very evident.

However, we must then take into account also the fact that entire groups witnessed UFOs too. And this even includes abductions where a e.g. family members could confirm to each other (or the researcher) the same events and details. And this also under regressive hypnosis!

UFOs have been around since time immemorial. They were just described according to the belief systems of the times and the people who saw them. It's the historic and cultural framework that must be taken into account. E.g. many bible accounts of lights and angels could have been ETs (not saying they were). Same applies to direct "alien beings" sightings.

Hence it could well be that our folklore 'little people', goblins, dwarfs, demons, fairies etc. were actually 'greys' or similar - or the other way round.

I've met greys myself in the astral and I do not believe that I just re-produced a meme but that they have a reality of their own to them. It's just my belief and I cannot prove it, but so have many others.

E.g. look here at these pre-historic cave painings:

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/pd51c0767c.jpg

Also the crafts were probably present, e.g. during the middle ages:

"Battle of Nuremberg":

http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case486.htm

Other saucers in medieval paintings (although heavily disputed by apologists) you can see here:

http://www.thinkaboutitdocs.com/6-1300-1499-sightings/

http://www.thinkaboutitdocs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/maryufo2-1-300x210.jpg

http://www.thinkaboutitdocs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/1356ufochase-300x217.jpg

http://www.thinkaboutitdocs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/14062.jpg

http://www.thinkaboutitdocs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/annunciation1.jpg

"What"ever they are and represent, it looks as if they've been around quite a long while here. Longer than we homo sapiens maybe?

I've read a good book where the author, the late J. Fiebag, describes the different appearances these beings or crafts can maybe take on and how they were described differently in the course of history. Maybe (he thinks) they adopted their appearance sometimes to 'fit in' some preconceptions of the people of the time. His theory is indeed interesting. Unfortunately the book is not available in English somewhere, here's a short summary about "The Others":

http://www.ufopsi.com/component/content/article/36-book-reviews/246-die-anderen-begegnungen-mit-einer-aussererdischen-intelligenz?directory=1

Here is another very interesting collection I stumbled across via a google search on historic UFO sightings, similar to the one above:

http://hayaryakanch.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/1000-bc-1869-ufo-reports.pdf

This all also shows that UFOs, aliens and even 'abductions' have been around forever. They are NOT a new invention, they are just re-framed and re-casted due to the cultural and historic background, it seems.

[CFTraveler]

As someone who actually studied art history, I have to point out that in medieval art any picture of the virgin was accompanied by a small medallion in some part of the painting, usually in the sky- as a 'foreshadowing' or 'reminder' of the visitation. If you look at a close up of the clearer ones that are not degraded, (which the 'ancient aliens' guys never do, because it would blow their hypothesis) inside those cartouches you can clearly see either annunciation scenes if the pictures are of Mary (usually angels announcing) and if it's of Jesus crucified it's of sun/moon combos, because of the mystical symbology. In Byzantine art especially these little medallions or 'little glory' scenes were accepted iconography- an artistic 'rule'. It was the style of the times.
Once again, these 'Ancient Aliens' guys know nothing of the art and culture of the objects they 'analyze'.

[MooSaysTheCat]

As someone who actually studied art history, I have to point out that in medieval art any picture of the virgin was accompanied by a small medallion in some part of the painting, usually in the sky- as a 'foreshadowing' or 'reminder' of the visitation. If you look at a close up of the clearer ones that are not degraded, (which the 'ancient aliens' guys never do, because it would blow their hypothesis) inside those cartouches you can clearly see either annunciation scenes if the pictures are of Mary (usually angels announcing) and if it's of Jesus crucified it's of sun/moon combos, because of the mystical symbology. In Byzantine art especially these little medallions or 'little glory' scenes were accepted iconography- an artistic 'rule'. It was the style of the times.
Once again, these 'Ancient Aliens' guys know nothing of the art and culture of the objects they 'analyze'.

I don't think that changes anything. What if there was always a mysterious orb or ship flying around whenever a holy man or woman was present? I mean those people where quite important. A good artist would draw what he sees as accurately as he could (well that is debatable since those guys that just make lines and splashes of ink do exist) What if all these important people had special alien bodyguards? And Mary's bodyguard traveled on a moon-like ship? Then here came the modern man to interpret the paintings and of course to think that they where UFO is just silly, of course it was some type of symbology. Also if I understood correctly, it is common to see angels depicted on these orbs....that actually supports the ancient aliens theory even more, because an angel is ultimately an extraterrestrial and that is undeniable.

Then again I have not really studied history at all and I have no idea of what I am saying. I just like the the ancient alien theory.

[Sinera]

Once again, these 'Ancient Aliens' guys know nothing of the art and culture of the objects they 'analyze'.
They just look at it with modern and 'fresh' eyes and without dogmatic pre-conceptions. ;)

And since you mentioned 'visitation' above, well, this term rings a bell and this also somehow corroborates it for me: 'alien visitation'.

And as MooSaysTheCat also said: angels or so are also ETs in a way, hyperdimensional, they came from the sky, were shining, some used craft, some came with thunder and lightning, and so on. This could well be one of the underlying causes of these holy and religious depictions with disks in the sky and shining beings, everything supernatural appeared in the skies, everything "godly" is seen as coming from the sky, and so on...

Of course, again, it's the AA-Theory vs. an orthodox or 'academic' interpretation and cannot proven one way or the other, one is not better than the other imv, I also favour the AA theory in most cases, but not always, and yes, maybe it is indeed then up to the 'belief' and world-view of the beholder. :wink:

[CFTraveler]

I don't think that changes anything. What if there was always a mysterious orb or ship flying around whenever a holy man or woman was present? I mean those people where quite important. A good artist would draw what he sees as accurately as he could This was a style of a specific time that had specific artistic rules. A quick look at art, especially religious or spiritual art will show that artists were not hired to paint accurate pictures, there was specific symbolism in vogue at the time.
I'm not against the belief in UFOs- I have seen one myself and experienced some things myself- but the specific claims that most of the ancient aliens group (especially on paleoarcheology and art symbolism) is sometimes wrong, and many times false. As in, they know what the facts are and ignore them if they're not convenient.

[eyeoneblack]

Thank you for your well considered replies. I hope you will forgive me if I don't take issue with this point or another in order to further the discussion. I put my 'argument' in 'Musings' so as to distance it from Serious, say, pedantic revelations of some sort. My mind is in some upheaval of a sort where I am questioning my own long held 'beliefs'.

I totally respect your thoughts, Sinerea, CFT, Moo. I'll be glad if one day I can I feel more settled in my understandings, but the longer I live the more uncertain I become.