What do you gain from enlightment

[Eyeswideopen]

So I am wondering what it is that you gain when you experience the falling away of the ego and reaching an enlightend state of awareness? I have read enough to know what happens and I know it's an individual thing but, when you are in this state or through it, what actually changes.

What does the change of perception do for you. If you had a choice again to not have experienced this, would you now say no?

EWO

[ButterflyWoman]

First, I want to say that I don't really like the word "enlightenment". I just don't. It has a crapload of social expectations and dogma and other stuff attached to it, to the point that it's nearly meaningless. It also implies that it's sort of "ta da, FINISHED!" but it's actually not that at all. It's just the beginning of a different way of experiencing life. I like the term "awakening" because it's like "recovering", in that it's ongoing. But that's just me.

Oh, and if you use the word "enlightened" people can get really rude about it. Just sayin'.


what actually changes.
Perspective. That's all.


What does the change of perception do for you.
Well, imagine you're standing on the ground in a back yard with a high fence. What can you see? Now imagine you're standing on the roof. NOW what can you see? Now what can you understand about the neighborhood? If you want to go further, imagine now that you're in a helicopter, hovering over the neighborhood.... and so on. Only add the fact that you can, in time, move between these perspectives pretty much at will. Oh, and make "the neighborhood" into "reality". :)


If you had a choice again to not have experienced this, would you now say no?
No. The liberation is exquisite. And so is the view.

[CFTraveler]

Even though the word 'gain' is tricky, I would say I gained a less filtered view of the world, or existence, or... something.

[ButterflyWoman]

Even though the word 'gain' is tricky, I would say I gained a less filtered view of the world, or existence, or... something.
Yes, there isn't really anything like a "gain". It's a "loss". Loss of certain restrictions, loss of certain attachments, loss of certain stuff that you find out you don't and didn't need to begin with (though you thought you did). Less is more, and awakening is a subtractive process, not an additive one.

Though you could just as easily ask, "What do you gain by becoming lucid within your dream?" Nothing, really. Just a different way of experiencing the dream.

[Eyeswideopen]

Great analogy or metaphors, depending on what way you perceive it :D (I am in practice)

Love the way you explained it for me.

Can I ask if after a state of more awareness say, do you feel more engaged with life in the tangible? I am asking because I am currently quite a hermit and I wonder if after reaching a more awareness state would I be more inclined to be the observer/dreamer/consciousness, or retreat even further? I understand again it's individual and I hope I am not prying too much.

[ButterflyWoman]

Can I ask if after a state of more awareness say, do you feel more engaged with life in the tangible?
Errr... that's difficult to describe. The answer is a firm "yes and no". My reality issues from me, through me. I am part of all of it, and it is part of me. There's no arbitrary place where "I" stop and "it" begins. So in that way, the engagement is beyond intimate. But at the same time, this material "I" creature never cared all that much for life in the first place (had a fairly unhappy one for a lot of it) and so "I" choose to usually maintain some degree of being not-entirely-present. I just like it better that way. But it's really up to the individual point-of-consciousness that's doing the experiencing. Some, I've read, become powerfully engaged. It just depends on what you're interested in. I've always been a solitary creature. That hasn't really changed.

I actually try to maintain a balance between the subjective experience of "myself" and "my life" and the much more detached, observer type position. But, honestly, it's blissful for me to be able to just disengage from this whole "reality" thing regularly. I know from experience that it's very easy for me to slip into that observer state and pretty much stay there, but it's not the best option if I want to keep this life story thing going well. And I have things in my life story that pull me into it regularly (my kids, particularly, but other things, as well), so I don't get too lost in my solitude. I chose this life, a family, all of that, and I still honour my commitment to that. There is no obligation nor requirement. I stay and I act because it's what I choose to be doing.

I'm having to use words that don't really fit right, because it's not something that can be easily explained. The idea of "choose" is not a good match, but it's the closest I can get. And the idea will or free will... that's a misnomer, too, but there are no other ways to explain it, and I've never seen nor imagined a metaphor that was adequate.

[Terry]

Enlightenment is not a destination it is a state of being, a spiritual and psychological state. There are things that go along with this but if you are looking for this to be a dramatic change in the way you currently live or feel about your personal circumstances you maybe disappointed.

From my own experience I gained clarity. The habitual self talk just immediately stopped, certain thought processes that I repeatedly cycled through stopped. If you have a conditioned thought process that is tied to association with environments, objects, or activities then they will continue until you take charge and clear them out. There are many books and websites on NLP which will give you procedures on how to do that.

The more work you do on yourself to clear out thoughts that prevent you from enjoying life, having friends, going out in public etc.. the better you will be.

It is not healthy to spend all your time in meditation or in spiritual growth, sometimes it just happens in the moment without you really focusing much on it.

Clarity of thought and being able to see with a less cluttered lens the reality around you is a natural part of enlightenment. As far as other experiences or specifics with what it is like, the only word that really comes to mind is clarity, the rest is part of your own personal journey.

Also it is common to fall out of this state and you will have more experiences like this through out your life, some are brief and some stick around longer. Not everyone has the need to become a spiritual leader or live the life of a monk. I find it amusing when people talk about giving up their life and sometimes belongings to dedicate themselves to this thing called enlightenment.

I can share some of my own experience here, when realizing that I had obtained or was given this gift and after the initial "shock" of coming to the understanding of what this meant and how things have changed inside me. I no longer had the self-talk that was always there from my parents, immediate family and things I picked up earlier in life from who knows where. I saw and felt the barriers others lived within and how I used to live my life the same, having everything I experience be filtered through beliefs, self-talk negative or positive, other peoples views or opinions... I was instantly released from all this.

After all that realization wore off, there really was no difference in my personal situation, the same people were involved in my life. I had the same responsibilities as I had before and everything was pretty much identical to before my experience but this time it had a permanent change and effect in the way I perceive everything from other people, normal every day things and my own thoughts. But, the circumstances were not magically changed in my life. I did not instantly gain wealth, I still had to pay the electric bill every month, buy food, repair or replace things as they broke down. Life continued just like before but now I have clarity about everything and I don't live my life or perceive things through the psychological barriers and limits I had before this experience.

Actually it was quite a few smaller experiences that happened off and on through out my life and then the last one 3 years ago or so had a permanent effect where I like I said lost the negative self-talk, gained clarity in my perception of what is going on around me in everyday life. There were some psychic and spiritual developments that happened as well but that is really a individual experience unique to the person. Not everyone has the same gifts or the same level of ability within them.

Would I chose to experience enlightenment again if it was somehow taken away? Yes.

Why? Clarity of thought alone and not having my perception colored by filters I picked up along my life.

It is interesting reading the internet now and seeing mistaken understandings people have of various spiritual things. MANY talk from the experience of others without experiencing for themselves. Many mistaken interpretations and wrong thinking can't be corrected without first experiencing whatever it is people seem interested in but have little personal experience in.

Hope this was useful to you.

[Terry]

I actually try to maintain a balance between the subjective experience of "myself" and "my life" and the much more detached, observer type position. But, honestly, it's blissful for me to be able to just disengage from this whole "reality" thing regularly.

Overtime I just integrated these experiences or perspectives. Being able to snap into the immediate now with one hundred percent lucidity and clarity is very useful especially with observing but having a more relaxed perspective most of the time is easier for my daily experience.

I discovered I fell back into old habits but being able to snap into or out of perspectives instantly is nice. When it comes to everyday life, I just decided that I am right here right now and whether I am that here in this life or somewhere else is irrelevant. Since I am here then I am going to be here and live this life. Other options I don't concern myself with.

[MooSaysTheCat]

It also implies that it's sort of "ta da, FINISHED!" but it's actually not that at all. It's just the beginning of a different way of experiencing life. I like the term "awakening" because it's like "recovering", in that it's ongoing. But that's just me.



Perspective. That's all.


Well, imagine you're standing on the ground in a back yard with a high fence. What can you see? Now imagine you're standing on the roof. NOW what can you see? Now what can you understand about the neighborhood? If you want to go further, imagine now that you're in a helicopter, hovering over the neighborhood.... and so on. Only add the fact that you can, in time, move between these perspectives pretty much at will. Oh, and make "the neighborhood" into "reality". :)


No. The liberation is exquisite. And so is the view.


This is is a great way of explaining it , I like, I like very much. True and easy to understand, the toddler that controls my brain likes it.

Perception is all that changes I agree and gain a lot of self knowledge. But with those " small" changes you can create bigger changes. You can figure out a job that you truly like. Your old friends and family will still be there but you will also be able to know who you truly like and who to be friends with In the future. Stressful situations will not be so bad...or they will , but for a shorter time . It might even make you want to move to another country ! And with that comes new places,food,people and ideas.
I just wanted to add this because it was starting to look like "perception" was actually a small change. Perception changes the world.

Of course this is all within my personal experience. Like Terry said some people might "add" other people's experiences. It does not really bother me however.

Something that I wanted to say is that the "road to enlightenment" is a slightly uphill road and you can continue going up and up and so it is said that "enlightenment" is not a place or goal, It's the path in itself . You continue to learn new things as you go.
However I believe it goes both ways...if you stop , you might slowly start rolling back. What you have learned up until now you won't lose it...you will simply "forget" a little of it. So I believe it is actually possible to go back to going back to being a "normal" person. But as others have already pointed it out....there is no actual reason a person would want to go back.

[ButterflyWoman]

Strange that this thread is active again. I had a reality-altering epiphany yesterday, and I'm still reeling from it. I could put it into words, but it would sound trite and I wouldn't be able to communicate the profound nature of it, anyway, so I won't try. Reason I'm posting is to draw a line under the notion that awakening is ONGOING. It is continual. The revelations and epiphanies that have thrown me into existential uncertainty over the years are fewer and farther between now, but when they do happen, they're very deep now (because all the "shallower" stuff has been exploded already), and quite fundamental. In time, I figure it will slow down to where these things happen rarely, not because of some great achievement of wisdom or whatever, but because most of the attachments and misunderstandings and beliefs will be gone, and there's just not a lot left that has to be dissolved. But I don't think it's ever "done".

Something else in this thread that I want to comment on, is that I am still finding it tricky to maintain appropriate balance between being present in my material reality and interactive with it, and being detached (sometimes very detached). There IS a balance, there must be, but it's easy to get drawn into the day-to-day goings on your material story, and it's also easy to drift away into blissful detachment where you're just "above it all". There is, as Buddha said, a "middle path" (I'm paraphrasing, and taking that somewhat out of context, I know, but the sentiment is applicable), and I'm still trying to find that, and remain on it. If you prefer a more Westernised version of the sentiment, to be "in the world, but not of the world" as written by St Paul.

I'm kind of hoping that my latest reality-shaking understanding will, when it settles, put me on that middle path and that I'll be able to remain there (unless I have some reason to shift awareness around).

[Terry]

Something else in this thread that I want to comment on, is that I am still finding it tricky to maintain appropriate balance between being present in my material reality and interactive with it, and being detached (sometimes very detached). There IS a balance, there must be, but it's easy to get drawn into the day-to-day goings on your material story, and it's also easy to drift away into blissful detachment where you're just "above it all". There is, as Buddha said, a "middle path" (I'm paraphrasing, and taking that somewhat out of context, I know, but the sentiment is applicable), and I'm still trying to find that, and remain on it. If you prefer a more Westernised version of the sentiment, to be "in the world, but not of the world" as written by St Paul.



I know what you are saying, I went through this as well. In the end I discovered that I could particpate in life, interact within it and still have an awakened consciousness. It is a fine line too much one way or the other and you are either too in the moment and detached or fall back into ego consciousness. Though for me the ego based consciousness is a different experience than before I don't get stuck or walled off in it, though sometimes I operate from this state my new default state that I always revert to is a quite awareness just being present in the now. It sort of scared me a little in the beginning experiencing life this way and not having the self-talk or voice of the ego chattering away. Just quiet awareness, thought I was broken for a second and it disturbed me, I got over it though rather quickly.

[Terry]

Another thing that I find interesting is that I am very accute to my own emotions and mental state. When I get annoyed for whatever reason, standing in line at a store and someone does something that extends my wait or someone in a car ahead of me keeps changing lanes and cuts me off more than once I feel the annoyance and sense of being pissed off while at the same time being detached in a quiet state of awareness. I get a sense of fascination with my body and this part that gets pissed off and even though I have a certain amount of detachment in the moment I also still experience emotion. Something I find interesting and marvelous at the sametime. I guess relieved in someway that I am not a zombie and whatever this enlightenment or awakening I have gone through hasn't dramatically altered my being and that I still am part of the human race.

[outofbodydude]

So I am wondering what it is that you gain when you experience the falling away of the ego and reaching an enlightend state of awareness? I have read enough to know what happens and I know it's an individual thing but, when you are in this state or through it, what actually changes.

What does the change of perception do for you. If you had a choice again to not have experienced this, would you now say no?

EWO

It sounds like what you are speaking of is a temporary state of "enlightenment" or loss of ego identity, as opposed to true enlightenment, which is the end goal of the Buddhist path. True enlightenment, liberation, Nibbana, whatever you wish to call it, is said to be a state of complete detachment from the attachments, aversions, identifications, and delusions of the mind, it is liberation from all forms of suffering, it is true freedom, a completely unconditioned state of being that has the highest forms of happiness, love, compassion, and equanimity as it's attributes. This state is said to be a direct result of the skillfully directed practice of the 8 fold path laid out by the Buddha. The temporary experience you have described seems like it would be rather unsatisfactory when compared to final liberation.

[ButterflyWoman]

... I feel the annoyance and sense of being pissed off while at the same time being detached in a quiet state of awareness. I get a sense of fascination with my body and this part that gets pissed off and even though I have a certain amount of detachment in the moment I also still experience emotion. Something I find interesting and marvelous at the sametime.
Yes, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. :) For me, it's still just a matter of finding and remaining in that in between space. It's actually a very, very pleasant place to be, and it's functional. If I go too far into detachment, I'm basically blissed out and not much use in the material world, and if I go too far into ego-self-material, I get quite caught up in it all and it's easy to lose perspective. I can "snap out" any time I want, but going back and forth is jarring and disorienting. Hence my understanding that there's a middle place (and I have been there plenty of times) and that this is where my conscious focus needs to remain most of the time.

[IA56]

So I am wondering what it is that you gain when you experience the falling away of the ego and reaching an enlightend state of awareness? I have read enough to know what happens and I know it's an individual thing but, when you are in this state or through it, what actually changes.

What does the change of perception do for you. If you had a choice again to not have experienced this, would you now say no?

EWO

Hi Dear EWO,
I wouldn´t change a bit of my Life or experiences, even it has bean horrible hard, but in the end when you are through the difficulty you feel blessed and Loved, and I understand more and more what Life is, and why I am here this time, to notice how much work there is to be done, does not frighten me anymore, or make me feel regret that I Went on this journey.
So the answere is: I will say YES to continue my journey, I want to feel real freedom, and I will, I will never give up.
I hope neighder will you, dear Ewo.

Love
ia

[ButterflyWoman]

is said to be
You used that phrase multiple times. This is the problem with the word "enlightenment". It's said to be this or that, it's taught that it's this or that, but does the word even actually mean anything at all? I would say that it doesn't, not really. Dogma is dogma. There is probably some truth to most (not all) dogmas, but, ultimately, it's just repeating something that someone said, and until/unless it's experienced, it means nothing at all. The ONLY thing that is what you might call "real" (again, whatever that's supposed to mean!) is experience. Everything else is hearssay, including the contents of this thread.

[outofbodydude]

You used that phrase multiple times. This is the problem with the word "enlightenment". It's said to be this or that, it's taught that it's this or that, but does the word even actually mean anything at all? I would say that it doesn't, not really. Dogma is dogma. There is probably some truth to most (not all) dogmas, but, ultimately, it's just repeating something that someone said, and until/unless it's experienced, it means nothing at all. The ONLY thing that is what you might call "real" (again, whatever that's supposed to mean!) is experience. Everything else is hearsay, including the contents of this thread.

I use the phrase "it is said" to convey the fact that I do not know something through experience. It says nothing about the nature of the word "enlightenment" itself, it is simply a reflection of my honesty and my ability to acknowledge that which is currently out of my grasp of knowledge and understanding. Even if I do have the experience of something, I do not really know the truth of it on an ultimate level, I only know what my limited human mind believes it has experienced based on it's perceptions. This is especially true when it comes to something rather elusive and subjective like spiritual experiences. So in these cases, the phrase "it is said that" can be changed to "it is experienced that," although this does not necessarily mean that truth has been acquired, but simply that a certain type of experience has been had.

The word enlightenment is simply a label to classify and describe an aspect of reality, just like any other word. It may represent somewhat different concepts depending on the person or culture, just as the word "God" does, but the concepts that it represents are just as valid as any other concepts. They are simply fabrications of the mind representing an experience of reality.

[ButterflyWoman]

I use the phrase "it is said" to convey the fact that I do not know something through experience.
Yes. :) That was exactly my point. You see millions of people talking about "it's said that" and "I was taught that" and "the Church tells us" and so forth. And not just on matters religious/spiritual. It's everywhere, all the time. And that's what I was commenting on.


It says nothing about the nature of the word "enlightenment" itself, it is simply a reflection of my honesty and my ability to acknowledge that which is currently out of my grasp of knowledge and understanding. Even if I do have the experience of something, I do not really know the truth of it on an ultimate level, I only know what my limited human mind believes it has experienced based on it's perceptions.
Indeed. We have only our interpretation of our experiences. And every interpretation is unique, because every mind interpreting is unique.


The word enlightenment is simply a label to classify and describe an aspect of reality
Yes, I've been saying this for years. Maybe not those precise words. But that sentiment, certainly. And it's part of why I don't really like the word "enlightenment" very much. People use it with a LOT of assumptions about what it means, what's it's supposed to represent. Lots of dogma and expectation attached to it.

You're quite right that all words have expectations attached, but some are more pernicious than others. Just off the top of my head: enlightenment, salvation, truth, real...

[Terry]

Personally, I prefer to hear about peoples experiences than what was read in a book or what others said about...


Do my own experiences fit in that mold of what has been said "enlightenment" is suppose to be like? I think some of my experiences resemble what others have described while other aspects do not. I rather enjoy comparing my experiences and realizations with people like Butterfly Woman and others. Shows me that I am not alone in my experiences and can relate a lot with what has been shared through out history especially in gathering places like this virtually as well as face to face with people locally.


I appreciate the works of those that have come before but personally I don't think these experiences have anything to do with religion or religious views. It is a natural part of the human development process and a lot of what has been put out there has been subjugated (correct word?), by those that want to control and pollute the process through religious "rites" and requiring a "master" for lots of $$$. I have spent some monies to work with various shamans and energy workers over the years to help clear blockages, get guidance on certain specific things but overall I never had a "teacher" perse and instead learned through actual experience, sometimes painfully.


I find it neat that others have had similar or same experiences that I have but I don't really need some "guru" to tell me how to breathe or twist my body into a pretzel to experience things I already do naturally. Maybe I am just unique and these things people teach out there from thousand years ago is required but in my case and apparently others I have personally spoken with, worked with and places like this.. it's not.


Apparently there is passion about this subject because those from india and those that follow a spiritual "guru" absolutely go into fits when they discover that people are out there that never heard of let alone worked with the "guru" of the moment and have all by themselves seemingly attained heights of spiritual growth that to them is impossible without hiking up a mountain and sitting for years at the feet of guru wannabego or whoever. Robert Bruce has talked about meeting people like this and it matches a lot with my own experiences with people like this and religious people in general. If it isn't in their form of teaching from their version of the bible and their church leaders don't condone it then it's evil and satanic.


So yeah, I don't really put much value of what others say about these topics if there is no personal experience behind it. It's just hearsay, false beliefs and misunderstandings from my view point.

[Terry]

Yes, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. :) For me, it's still just a matter of finding and remaining in that in between space. It's actually a very, very pleasant place to be, and it's functional. If I go too far into detachment, I'm basically blissed out and not much use in the material world, and if I go too far into ego-self-material, I get quite caught up in it all and it's easy to lose perspective. I can "snap out" any time I want, but going back and forth is jarring and disorienting. Hence my understanding that there's a middle place (and I have been there plenty of times) and that this is where my conscious focus needs to remain most of the time.


I have been going through a conundrum on this myself. If I am here then I should be here and experience emotions and live here on the earth now and be part of my community. I get annoyed with what I see as a religious view, mainly because I first heard it from members of a pentecostal church I used to attend for a while, where the montra was and is live among them but don't be of them.. don't be of the earth, of the people. This puts a barrier instantly between yourself and life especially people, makes way for a better than you large ego driven perspective. It just feels wrong to me.

BUT...

From my other perspective I understand completely what is meant here but I also see it through wisdom and a lot of or I should say all the "born again" or "christians" I have ever personally met take this to such a degree that they become what I call inbred and prefer to associate with each other as much as possible. Easily turns into a cult even though they don't use that term.

I guess for me, I see the importance of limiting distractions while on the path to the state of mind, greater perspective that has been termed "enlightenment" but you can't stay isolated forever or you develop the same detachment that I think hinders your own growth and those you come into contact with. Even if you don't know it and just are standing in line behind someone at the store your influence is felt. I guess I just have a personal issue with the be among them but not of them mentality in that it promotes isolation which goes against source and when you are truly connected that attitude is rather obsolete.

I get frustrated with humanity at times.

I am not sure if any of that made sense but was curious about your view on this and I do understand the balance you are going for and maybe this isn't something that is applicable to you at least right now.

Thanks.

[ButterflyWoman]

I am not sure if any of that made sense but was curious about your view on this and I do understand the balance you are going for and maybe this isn't something that is applicable to you at least right now.
My view on what? I'm not sure if you mean the stuff about narrow-thinking religionists (they come in all shapes and flavours, by the way; it's not limited to Christianity, and some people turn politics or other cultural things into what amounts to a cultish religion, too). Or my view on the middle ground? :)

I think the only thing for the middle ground and getting there and staying there is going to be the only thing that I know for sure works: intention plus surrender. Set the intention and then completely let go of it and surrender to whatever process or events come up. It always works, though it can be a strange ride at times. I don't know how, can't figure out how, am unlikely to work it out, so I'll just have to intend it and release it and see how it unfolds. And it will. That much I definitely have experienced all my life.

Oh, and something else I've experienced pretty much all my life is disappointment and dismay in humanity. I still carry that with me. I don't suppose I will ever think highly of humanity. I may love, like, respect, and otherwise think well of individual persons, but humanity as a whole is a pretty unpleasant sort of thing. I've been chastised for this attitude plenty of times (on these forums, as well), but that's how this material mind interprets the stuff it has experienced. Maybe if I could change that, I might experience humanity in a different way. I probably would, in fact. To be entirely honest, I'm not sure I want to change it. I'll have to meditate on this and see why that might be the case (thank you for your post, it helped me to focus on that :)).

[TheFifth]

I've read a quote somewhere by a Zen master that said, in essence, that there is is no enlightened individual, just enlightened being and living. Just like with the Guru--some people focus on the Guru and don't realize that they should be focusing on his samadhi. The state of samadhi is much bigger and more pervasive than the individual personality can ever be. In my own efforts at ego-control, I am wary to ever make any sort of personal claim of enlightenment. I am far from a perfect being, and have a long way to go on this path.

I have, however, had experiences that seem to be genuine glimpses of enlightened consciousness, and while it is truly extraordinary, it is also the most ordinary thing imaginable. (Being filled with ecstasy staring at a cloud, looking at a tree, or in the seemingly banal process of walking somewhere--if I told people about my state of absorption at that time they would likely think I'm nuts). It's a lot like falling in love--but with everything and nothing at the same time. Based from my experience trying to function in the modern world, I would argue that periodic states of enlightened being present their own challenges. (Sitting and being content with the beauty of existence kind of goes against essentially all of our Western sources of motivation). I've gained little other than genuine peace of mind and increased fortitude. I still face incredible challenges and difficulties; I still have personality aspects that are less than spiritually ideal. But these are punctuated by these incredible states of being and a more prevailing sense of "wholeness" in my heart.

Starting off on the spiritual path as a teenager, I was looking for power and "special" abilities. What I've ended up with is the opposite, and I'm quite okay with that.

[ButterflyWoman]

I've read a quote somewhere by a Zen master that said, in essence, that there is is no enlightened individual, just enlightened being and living.
Indeed. Consciousness becomes aware of Itself. It's always all about Consciousness, and never about the individual (even if ego-self does jump in and claim it, just because that's what ego-self does).


Being filled with ecstasy staring at a cloud, looking at a tree, or in the seemingly banal process of walking somewhere--if I told people about my state of absorption at that time they would likely think I'm nuts
Yes, I know what you mean. :) I had a most extraordinary bliss experience drinking a glass of cold water.



I was looking for power and "special" abilities. What I've ended up with is the opposite, and I'm quite okay with that.
A lot of people start out that way. I probably had some notion of it, myself, when, during puberty, I read a book on various occult things (palm reading, card reading, how to use a pendulum, dream interpretation, and on and on). The book had a final chapter that touched on Eastern style mysticism, and was my first introduction to the notion of chakras. I was amazed to read that at the highest levels of yogic attainment, practitioners were said to be able to experience the instant realisation of any desire. I remember thinking how awesome that would be, and while I never took up yoga in the physical sense (I do meditate, but it was not through the Eastern style path), some seed was planted, I think.

I now have a much better understanding of what was meant by that whole instant realisation of desires thing, and it's not as straightforward (in material terms) as it sounded in that book! ;) :)

I can't say I ever got on a spiritual path, though. I've always been a mystic, it's jut my nature. There was never any conscious decision on my part. For me, the dabbling in ways to control my environment (I looked into all kinds of stuff, from magick to prayer to everything else) was kind of secondary. The mysticism was always present, and everything else was secondary (and generally ego based).

[TheFifth]

A lot of people start out that way. I probably had some notion of it, myself, when, during puberty, I read a book on various occult things (palm reading, card reading, how to use a pendulum, dream interpretation, and on and on). The book had a final chapter that touched on Eastern style mysticism, and was my first introduction to the notion of chakras. I was amazed to read that at the highest levels of yogic attainment, practitioners were said to be able to experience the instant realization of any desire. I remember thinking how awesome that would be, and while I never took up yoga in the physical sense (I do meditate, but it was not through the Eastern style path), some seed was planted, I think.

All the occult stuff just got me started; the core of my interest in a lot of it was soul searching--a deep yearning for spiritual connection and experience. You can really only conceptualize it according to your maturity at the time.

[John Sorensen]

It sounds like what you are speaking of is a temporary state of "enlightenment" or loss of ego identity, as opposed to true enlightenment, which is the end goal of the Buddhist path. True enlightenment, liberation, Nibbana, whatever you wish to call it, is said to be a state of complete detachment from the attachments, aversions, identifications, and delusions of the mind, it is liberation from all forms of suffering, it is true freedom, a completely unconditioned state of being that has the highest forms of happiness, love, compassion, and equanimity as it's attributes. This state is said to be a direct result of the skillfully directed practice of the 8 fold path laid out by the Buddha. The temporary experience you have described seems like it would be rather unsatisfactory when compared to final liberation.

There's that word, "final"

complete, done, finished etc.

One problem with that, an infinite being is never finished, it just keeps on having "experience" or growth or whatever word you prefer.

There are infinite realities, universes, dimensions and probable realities.

However expansive our view, it just keeps expanding, there is no end to it.

Your very thoughts and emotions seed universes, whether you know it or not.

[John Sorensen]

Oh, and something else I've experienced pretty much all my life is disappointment and dismay in humanity. I still carry that with me. I don't suppose I will ever think highly of humanity. I may love, like, respect, and otherwise think well of individual persons, but humanity as a whole is a pretty unpleasant sort of thing. I've been chastised for this attitude plenty of times (on these forums, as well), but that's how this material mind interprets the stuff it has experienced. Maybe if I could change that, I might experience humanity in a different way. I probably would, in fact. To be entirely honest, I'm not sure I want to change it. I'll have to meditate on this and see why that might be the case (thank you for your post, it helped me to focus on that :)).

I've often had that feeling of disappointment in humanity as a species. But inherent in that feeling is another feeling, one of knowing that we can do better. If we did not care deeply for our species we would not experience disappointment, but total apathy.
Life is growth, in this system or any other.

[outofbodydude]

There's that word, "final"

complete, done, finished etc.

One problem with that, an infinite being is never finished, it just keeps on having "experience" or growth or whatever word you prefer.

There are infinite realities, universes, dimensions and probable realities.

However expansive our view, it just keeps expanding, there is no end to it.

Your very thoughts and emotions seed universes, whether you know it or not.

My mistake for not being more clear. The "final liberation" I was speaking of is solely in reference to our current physical system of reality on this planet. If you have some knowledge of Buddhist philosophy, then you probably have somewhat of an understanding of what this final liberation entails, namely the end of rebirth in this physical reality, thus the word "final."

It is possible that we are infinite beings and that we are never finished growing and learning.

It is possible that there are infinite realities, universes, dimensions, ect.

It is possible that our mental and emotional activity "seeds" universes.

Of course, these are things that we will never truly know in an absolute sense while a part of this physical reality due to the limits of our physically-attuned consciousness, regardless of the higher-level insights that can be attained in higher states of consciousness, for it is still all filtered through our limited-capacity perceptions and conceptual frameworks. I believe it is wise to acknowledge this and avoid confusing beliefs with absolutes.

[CFTraveler]

...an infinite being is never finished, it just keeps on having "experience" or growth or whatever word you prefer.

There are infinite realities, universes, dimensions and probable realities.

However expansive our view, it just keeps expanding, there is no end to it.

...
I like that. I'm going to steal it.

[Terry]

Disappointment with human's as a species...

I think that is mainly due to most of them being asleep and don't realize their connection to everything around them. I don't really know how to go about that, most just do what they want damn nature, the planet and others.

If nature gets in the way of putting in a new school they just plow it under or dig it up. If there is an existing eco system there, they just get together and tell themselves it will be fine, the animals will just move some place else. Have to destroy wood land, it is ok, just plant some new trees and put down new grass it will be ok. It really is Human's first.. or. ME first and screw everyone else.

I have concerns about fulfilling my purpose for being here when most don't seem to care about anything outside themselves. Why should I care about them if they don't? I get that way a lot recently.

[MooSaysTheCat]

I have concerns about fulfilling my purpose for being here when most don't seem to care about anything outside themselves. Why should I care about them if they don't? I get that way a lot recently.

Precisely because it is YOUR purpose.

You are special, you are human, you are just like everyone else...if humans are self centered then you are allowed to be too!
Complete YOUR purpose, don't worry about other peoples. You will get your reward. Unless you are doing it for free...but you probably aren't so dont worry about it. ;)

I help people when I can, my reward is not that I expect them to do the same for me...it's that good feeling you get when you help someone in need and that's good enough for me, because I'm self centered and I like feeling good.

[ButterflyWoman]

I have concerns about fulfilling my purpose for being here when most don't seem to care about anything outside themselves. Why should I care about them if they don't?
Forgive me for asking this, but are you absolutely sure that your "purpose" has to do with making people who don't care about anything outside themselves care or wake up or whatever?

I used to think I should try to do that, but time has taught me that there's no need and no point. Best I can do is offer a little nod on the path of people who are already going some way I've already gone. If they're not going to go on the same path, however, there's no point me trying to drag them to it. Well, occasionally, I deliberately rattle cages and plant seeds, but I don't know what effect it will or won't have, other than occasionally really pissing people off. (There's nothing people hate more than having their reality challenged. NOTHING.)

And this is a personal thing, but I'm super dubious about this whole "purpose of life" thing. Why does there have to be a "purpose"? Why can't it just evolve and be whatever it is until it starts to be something else? Why does anything have to have a purpose? Goals, sure, I can understand setting those. Gives you something to do, if nothing else. But the whole idea that everything/everyone has some immutable, specific purpose for being alive.... I'm just not seeing that. Not any more, anyway. Mind you, that realisation was one which triggered some of the most intense existential crises I've ever had to experience....

[Osiris]

It seems to me the term "enlightenment" simply means at least to a minimum extent the falling away of the blinders that we start out with at our creation. Over the course of many lifetimes these blinders of individualization, or separateness from the whole start to crack and weaken, we start to see reflections of ourselves (that is if we've taken the time to explore ourselves) in other people and things. We start to realize that even though our thoughts, feelings and actions Appear to be isolated to ourselves they are infact, as are the thoughts, feelings and actions of others, part of a Whole. As we open ourselves to the new budding reality it starts to become clearer that the life we once led is very limited indeed in comparison to the one opening up ahead. By giving up more and more of yourself to this experience you in effect open the door for a ever widening opportunity for consciousness expansion. If however you Cling to the old comfortable "you" you remain confined in a hard shell unable to expand outward, almost like a child that wants to remain 6 years old to never mature and develop into an adult because he or she dosnt see the benefit, because growing up means change and change is painful, but a child only knows his world and from a child's perspective everything is great. But a more mature adolescent or young adult knows better and a senior knows even more. Once you allow your self a taste of outward expansion, even though there not always pleasant, it is pretty difficult to wish they hadnt happened, and as you see yourself as part of a greater whole you wish all the growth in the world for Others because they are part of You as well, even if they dont see it yet.
That realizaton is enlightenment, not total or complete now or perhaps ever but its a well spring from which we can draw energy for the growth of ourselves as a Part of the whole. I used to tell people thats why you have 2 hands...one to reach up to be helped up and the other to reach down to help the other up.

[arundios]

If nature gets in the way of putting in a new school they just plow it under or dig it up. If there is an existing eco system there, they just get together and tell themselves it will be fine, the animals will just move some place else. Have to destroy wood land, it is ok, just plant some new trees and put down new grass it will be ok. It really is Human's first.. or. ME first and screw everyone else.

:D