COPY: Question about New Dawn article

[Kruben]

[Mod note: The original thread with question for Robert Bruce may be found here: http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/showthread.php?16971-Question-about-New-Dawn-article ]. This thread is a copy of that one, open for general discussion.

I read your New Dawn article on the afterlife and found it very interesting. I know you're familiar with Thomas Campbell and MBT, and I'm curious about how some of your experiences relate. For example, TC states that when we are able to communicate with deceased relatives it is not really them, it's just a copy of them, and the free will is not there. When you describe the experience with your mom on the English seaside, and you being able to visit her etc., was this a copy of her or was it the actual person, free and all?

Also have you had experiences that you will be describing in the future about what happens once the current life is processed and we move on to more meaningful afterlife experiences, or is this beyond what we can really see and interpret as we are right now.

Thanks

[IA56]

TC states that when we are able to communicate with deceased relatives it is not really them, it's just a copy of them, and the free will is not there.

Hi Kruben, I´d like to give my Point of view to this...
As I Believe in that our energy can´t be destroyed only shapeshift so to speak...so in every inkarnation
we have a new personality and it dissaperes or die when the body die´s...and left is only a energy memory
and off course like an recorded Music pies it will survive and be found, but as TC say without free will,
because the free will follow´s the original energy what Always survives, but will never come back as the
personality what the deceses person had....this is my 2 cent´s :-)

Love
ia

[eyeoneblack]

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but after my Mum died I experienced her quite often on the 'other side'. These presentations were, to me, meaningful and while I'm on board with the 'copy' heuristic, I'm more in line with a 'reflection' model. Which is to say, that the experience of Mum post life reflected her condition - depended upon whatever her challenges in the after life then reflected to the astral plane the living logos of her surviving self.

The copy was dependent on her continuing self on a plane I couldn't directly access, but was indicative of the her after-life struggle.

I doubt I made myself very clear :(

[IA56]

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but after my Mum died I experienced her quite often on the 'other side'. These presentations were, to me, meaningful and while I'm on board with the 'copy' heuristic, I'm more in line with a 'reflection' model. Which is to say, that the experience of Mum post life reflected her condition - depended upon whatever her challenges in the after life then reflected to the astral plane the living logos of her surviving self.

The copy was dependent on her continuing self on a plane I couldn't directly access, but was indicative of the her after-life struggle.

I doubt I made myself very clear :(

Hi Richard, very interesting, I´d like to ask some questions though if it is okay?
You say it indicated of her after-life stuggle....how can you know this?? or is it your wish she did work on the subject or what to call it
on her after-life..to understand you better??
You can PM me if you do not want to answere this openly, for me it would be a big help to know more about this.

Love
ia

[eyeoneblack]

You pose a very pertinent question, Ia. Nothing related to this is too personal as I always consider that others must have the same concerns. When I had to keep putting Mom's head back on her. When she didn't have lunch money for my little sister (I don't have one). These dreams were an indication of her true condition as I expected that she was so blind in her material life that there were accounts to settle. Yes, that is subjective on my part but we lived a subjective life between us.

These dreams were helpful for me. I came to understand her a little better, and I think now she has moved on and must be a better person for it all. Likewise, my dear and 'awake' aunt called me after her death so that I could rely on her health and well-being in the here-after.

[IA56]

Thank you Richard for your reply, I can not comment further.

Love
ia





You pose a very pertinent question, Ia. Nothing related to this is too personal as I always consider that others must have the same concerns. When I had to keep putting Mom's head back on her. When she didn't have lunch money for my little sister (I don't have one). These dreams were an indication of her true condition as I expected that she was so blind in her material life that there were accounts to settle. Yes, that is subjective on my part but we lived a subjective life between us.

These dreams were helpful for me. I came to understand her a little better, and I think now she has moved on and must be a better person for it all. Likewise, my dear and 'awake' aunt called me after her death so that I could rely on her health and well-being in the here-after.

[ButterflyWoman]

after my Mum died I experienced her quite often on the 'other side'. These presentations were, to me, meaningful and while I'm on board with the 'copy' heuristic, I'm more in line with a 'reflection' model. Which is to say, that the experience of Mum post life reflected her condition - depended upon whatever her challenges in the after life then reflected to the astral plane the living logos of her surviving self.
Mmm. Living Logos. Love that image. Good phrase. :thumbsup:

When my eldest daughter's grandfather died, he came to visit with me. I didn't even know he was seriously ill (long story, but this is the father of my EX husband, so...), let alone know he had died. But he came to me as clear as anything, and I recognised him instantly. I had always thought he didn't like me, but it seems he did, and he just came to say goodbye. We settled anything that needed to be settled (not that there was a lot of bad blood between us or anything) and he went, and I haven't seen him again, though he apparently shows up around my daughter's place from time to time.

The presence I experienced was like the material person, but much... I don't know... lighter? Relieved of various burdens, I guess? He seemed much more "present" than he had while he was alive, like... more vividly the essence of his character, without the veils and fog that seem to mute us in the material form. Does that even make sense? It's extremely difficult to describe.

Was this a "copy" or a "reflection"? Well, given that he was the same but different (better different, joyful, etc.), I'd say a reflection. A copy would have been grumpy and judgemental, both traits he exhibited freely in the flesh, but he was none of that when he came to me.

I dunno, though. I don't know that a model formed in material space can ever really represent what happens in Astral or greater space.

[Dreamweaver]

When my father passed I had numerous dreams of him trying to talk to me over the phone - the "phone connection" was always "long distance" and it was difficult to hear him. One dream stood out - my father showed me a church, and said "this us where I go." The form matters not to me, it was real communication. : )

[eyeoneblack]

Ultimately it becomes a question of objectivity. At one extreme we have ghosts, ephemeral presentations of the deceased. I have considered these phenomena a product of an energy pattern, a self-perpetuating yet mindless apparition reflecting often neurotic impulses of the deceased, sometimes initiated by violent trauma, but often very mundane.

I would not think to quiz such an entity, as they are mindless. In other words, ask a clock what time it is and it will return the time. But what that may mean is blind to the clock. Meaning is beyond it's function. On the other hand we have 'guides' that we are well aware may be quizzed for information and understanding. Yet, I don't believe these guides ever come in the form of a deceased loved-one.

Remember there are Pucks a plenty among the disembodied residents of the astral. They are posers. They cause a lot of mischief and confusion by simply playing to our sympathies. They are copies.

When Mom or Dad appear in my dreams I tend to see them as abstractions. No sense quizzing them - they are mute on meaning. But, in a Jungian way, perhaps, they are loaded with content and that content is what I'm imaginatively referring to as a reflection of the self beyond the astral. In some condition that I am not able to access directly.

I really don't think we should make too much out of the dream characterizations of deceased loved ones. Still, I believe we can often make some sense out it.

[ButterflyWoman]

At one extreme we have ghosts, ephemeral presentations of the deceased. I have considered these phenomena a product of an energy pattern, a self-perpetuating yet mindless apparition reflecting often neurotic impulses of the deceased, sometimes initiated by violent trauma, but often very mundane.
Yes, me, too. This is my observation and experience of this kind of thing.


I really don't think we should make too much out of the dream characterizations of deceased loved ones. Still, I believe we can often make some sense out it.
After my beloved grandmother died, she used to regularly turn up in my dreams. Usually, I'd be there, talking to her, and then I'd say, "Hey, wait, aren't you supposed to be dead?" and she'd laugh. She never had any messages or guidance or anything else. I would always wake with the sense of having been with her, but I suspect strongly it was just my subconscious mind trying to make peace with her death.

For what it's worth, I was absolutely awake when my former father-in-law came to visit me after he died. It was a unique experience. I definitely felt that it was, in some very real sense, "him".

[AEthos]

So, was the original question answered? I'm still confused. Does the consciousness' sense of self continue in the reflected copy in the afterlife as an independent free thinking being, but just at a different level until it chooses to move on to the next life path?

[CFTraveler]

So, was the original question answered? From what I read, I think it was, as much as a question like that can be answered. We can only give our own experiences in this case and what we get from them.

Does the consciousness' sense of self continue in the reflected copy in the afterlife as an independent free thinking being, but just at a different level until it chooses to move on to the next life path?
I don't think so, since so much of personality is learned or biologically determined. The essence, what was there before birth isn't changed, but it's not what we know here in the incarnate world. So I would say, that the essence of the person remains as it was before incarnation, possibly independent but unchanged, it doesn't mean that the person is the same the co-incarnates (i.e. friends and family) experienced in life.