Employing psychic powers for political purpose

[eyeoneblack]

China put down a lunar rover on the Moon Dec 15, 13. This did not sit well with me. China does not play well with others. See: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/china/140127/china-US-military-confrontation-south-china-sea-chicken

It is not reasonable that China would plant a flag on the Moon and declare sovereignty thereof, (in spite of it’s commitment as declared by international agreement to the contrary); but China is not reasonable.

I have long had a time-to-go-sleep meditation that helps drown out the day’s concerns so sleep overtakes disturbing, chattering thoughts and I’ll drift off. For quite a while my contemplation has centered on the Mars rover/lab Curiosity. Fascination has been the key. Imagining that I am with Curiosity keeps me focused and entertained.

And then, China put down the ‘Jade Rabbit’ lunar rover and I was repulsed by the thought. Call me a Sinophobe and that’s pretty accurate.

So, I started hurling lunar rocks at it; tried nudging a neighboring asteroid into impacting the vicinity of the lunar rover so as to cover its solar panels with dust. I was diligent in this practice. Besides, it worked as well as any to help me drift off to sleep.

Majick all too often backfires on me and so it worked out that the putative debilitating asteroid was actually on course for Mars - or close to it. Yikes!

But I only learned yesterday that ‘Jade Rabbit’ was silent. It seems the problem was the solar panels wouldn’t close over the rover at night as they should, and the electronics of the rover were destroyed by the cold. Bye-bye, Rabbit!

I bet I’m not the only one troubled by China’s exploration of the moon. How many millions of us even secretly desired failure for this attempt?

I can’t be blamed and I can’t take the credit. C'est la vie.

[Sinera]

but China is not reasonable.
... neither is the US nor any other global power ;)

I think they have a right to explore, if it is peaceful (but I'm naive :) )

please remember that China (as well as Syria, Iran, or any other future war target ...) so far did not start any devastating wars or drone killings all over the world for domination ... the West, esp. the US and NATO did ... and does :?

I'm therefore equally worried about the West exploring space (for military reasons).

Well, and all these skirmishes in the air or on sea... military power games and tensions are going on for years, also between other powers, it is never reported about by our compliant mainstream media, maybe in this case it is even good because people should not be too much worried about these things

Moreover, the online mag you linked to seems to be a bit biased and lopsidedly pro-US-(government/military) to me :(

But I also agree, China's regime is certainly among the more frightening in the world (North Korea, just in XXL) as well as their military ambitions and their propaganda machine, too

Btw but still on-topic, have you heard about this poster on an exhibition about the Jade Rabbit? It seems no fake, it's from last December .... I admit that's a little frightening indeed, too, if it was meant as a message (and not an accident as claimed).... :shock:

http://io9.com/chinese-rover-diorama-shows-europe-being-nuked-1484932947

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/199oufxjwean6png/ku-xlarge.png


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFVDgIfu-MQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFVDgIfu-MQ)

[CFTraveler]

I may be blind but I didn't see what you're showing. What exactly was the message, or accident, or what?

[Sinera]

Just click on the article link above the picture, it explains everything.

[eyeoneblack]

The topic, I hoped, would beg the question: Should we use psychic powers to influence geo-politics? I hoped we would receive some comments of that nature.

[CFTraveler]

I don't know what the answer is. That's because we all think that our position is the "right" one yet we all have different ideas on the subject. So the question is, let's suppose I became suddenly *wise*- so much that I'd figure out what the 'right' solutions for our world (not just my country, but you gotta start somewhere) are, would this wisdom preclude me from interfering with humanity's progression? I don't know; to me, it's a conundrum.

[eyeoneblack]

Yes, CFT. That is certainly a philosophical take and I agree, at that level. But on a practical scale, it is plainly obvious where egregious wrongs are being perpetrated on innocent people. IF we were able, we should have no problem taking in hand such atrocities as Sudan, Rwanda, and yes, Russia and China (Tibet) and so many others for humanitarian wrongs.

Well, that's my angle anyway. The problem obviously, were enough people to take a up mission to right this or that; would it be possible?

[Just thought of a messier problem, say, the Taliban in Afghanistan. This, imo, is abuse on women in the name of an ideology and that complicates things. In this case MY ideology (in my own mind) ♥♥♥♥♥s the Taliban's. But that is a judgment call I guess. Whether or not it is contrary to the hopes of a future of peace and good will.]

[CFTraveler]

Ok, in the case of egregious abuse, I would definitely try to intercede. I figure if it's somehow for the greater good in a way I can't fathom, then I figure my attempts at interfference probably won't work.

[ButterflyWoman]

I've been actively using whatever means available, psychic and otherwise, to try to stop Australia's Prime Minister from doing damage that cannot be undone (destroying parts of the Great Barrier Reef, de-listing world heritage forests, allowing shipping in protected seas, plus tearing apart most of Australia's social infrastructure). I have no ethical or moral problems with doing this. I don't want to live in the world that will be created by his government's actions, therefore, I will do whatever I must to remove him from power before he can do lasting and permanent damage (fortunately, our political system allows for the removal of a sitting Prime Minister under certain circumstances). And if the tens of thousands of us who are deeply concerned about him succeed by whatever means, I will cheer, and not feel one ounce or guilt or shame nor expect any kind of "karmic retribution". This is MY REALITY, and I have every right to change it or attempt to change it by whatever means are available to me.

[eyeoneblack]

I've actually been following Australia's swing to the Right. It's a shame - blockade the boat people, trash the carbon emission agreement - free enterprise, like the Wild West, is a free-for-all.

I'm concerned as well, Butterfly. The pendulum is volatile at this point in history. It is very polarized pitting the progressives against conservative traditionalists. The middle ground is disappearing altogether. The U.S. is so visible internationally we're taking a lot of heat, but Australia is in much the same trouble.

There are undeniable fissures running throughout the world and their only intensifying.

I would take up psychic arms with you.

[Seeuzin]

TL;DR version:

I admire your will to fight. I wouldn't call what you did "for political purpose," only because in my opinion, "political purpose" implies worldly-minded manipulation. The words I'd use for it would be fighting the darkness, and that is always a good idea. Even if I disagree because I'm a China-phile. :p Your intention is straight-on!! If you were manipulating to try and nudge a political process because, say, you thought Candidate X might allow you to make more money (the kind of manipulation a corporation or entity like that would want,) then I'd disagree with that entirely obviously, but yeah.

For myself, as a US citizen, I trust my government and that of China roughly the same (they're both evil.) I wouldn't personally feel right doing visualization for my country against another, even if I though it'd be ineffectual. But I think I understand what you mean by the dread you felt. I feel uneasiness with space exploration by our and China's governments alike.

Long version:

I've been struggling with this one for a while too.

I've been having a lot of conversations with Source lately. I had read a story in the news about a woman who was raped in an alley in NYC - all passerby ignored her.

Why didn't they react?

"If I were her," I thought, "I would have understood (in retrospect) their desires to save their own skin. But what I would NOT have understood was their inability to look." I remember thinking that, had I been her, it would have meant the world to me had even one person turned their head. Even if they were unable to help - say my attackers were many, and the onlooker was frail - that they had wanted to help would have mattered, and mattered deeply.

Something about witnessing matters.

Primarily I was thinking along these lines because of a recent experience I had. I would yell at God inwardly, an insane monologue: "Goddamnit, Universe, if you EVER let me out of here, I swear...I will become better than you. I won't let good people go through anything like this...anytime I'm capable I will step in. You're evil! Look at how you let those who want to help others get steamrolled; you let their souls rot, and then you kill them. And you don't even look. You turn your back on them."

Become better than God? I knew it didn't make any sense. But if God would provide me with no comfort, then I would become a source of comfort, myself: I would create a caring and strong heart in me. Or die trying.

*************

To the topic.
Something about bad experiences creates a warrior spirit. I can understand where you're coming from in wanting to fight darkness.

One thing I read recently did give me pause. A yogi was teaching in a prison in New Jersey. He spoke of trying to fight darkness: "Which is more effective? If we were in a dark room, suppose I gave you and your fellows sticks, and said, 'Beat the darkness out!' Chances are you would only end up accidentally beating each other. And it would not work. But light one candle, and all is light!"

Since reading that, I've been wondering intensely. The use of force seems essential. Noone would say that "lighting a candle" in that dark alleyway would have helped that woman; she needed someone to intervene, and with force that had teeth. Still, I keep going back to that passage in my mind. Recently, however, I read a chant from the Vedas. I forget exactly how it went, but it was something like this:

"Oh Ishwaar (God)! You feel powerful rage/indignation at crimes and criminals; let us also feel the same anger at crimes and criminals.

Oh Ishwaar! You feel delight when men draw near to you and grow in wisdom/virtue; let us also delight in the wise and virtuous."

There was more; not only feeling anger when evil is committed, but fighting to end injustice. It seemed to break some of the brain-fog that I felt when I had read the yogi's words about the candle. Yes, it is "okay" to fight, I thought.

In conclusion: I admire your will to fight. I wouldn't call what you did "for political purpose," only because in my opinion, "political purpose" implies worldly-minded manipulation. The words I'd use for it would be fighting the darkness, and that is always a good idea. Even if I disagree because I'm a China-phile. :p Your intention is straight-on!! If you were manipulating to try and nudge a political process because, say, you thought Candidate X might allow you to make more money (the kind of manipulation a corporation or entity like that would want,) then I'd disagree with that entirely obviously, but yeah.

For myself, as a US citizen, I trust my government and that of China roughly the same (they're both evil.) I wouldn't personally feel right doing visualization for my country against another, even if I thought it'd be ineffectual. But I think I understand what you mean by the dread you felt. I feel uneasiness with space exploration by our and China's governments alike.

[IA56]

Long version:

I've been struggling with this one for a while too.

I've been having a lot of conversations with Source lately. I had read a story in the news about a woman who was raped in an alley in NYC - all passerby ignored her.

Why didn't they react?

"If I were her," I thought, "I would have understood (in retrospect) their desires to save their own skin. But what I would NOT have understood was their inability to look." I remember thinking that, had I been her, it would have meant the world to me had even one person turned their head. Even if they were unable to help - say my attackers were many, and the onlooker was frail - that they had wanted to help would have mattered, and mattered deeply.

Something about witnessing matters.

Primarily I was thinking along these lines because of a recent experience I had. I would yell at God inwardly, an insane monologue: "Goddamnit, Universe, if you EVER let me out of here, I swear...I will become better than you. I won't let good people go through anything like this...anytime I'm capable I will step in. You're evil! Look at how you let those who want to help others get steamrolled; you let their souls rot, and then you kill them. And you don't even look. You turn your back on them."

Become better than God? I knew it didn't make any sense. But if God would provide me with no comfort, then I would become a source of comfort, myself: I would create a caring and strong heart in me. Or die trying.

*************

To the topic.
Something about bad experiences creates a warrior spirit. I can understand where you're coming from in wanting to fight darkness.

One thing I read recently did give me pause. A yogi was teaching in a prison in New Jersey. He spoke of trying to fight darkness: "Which is more effective? If we were in a dark room, suppose I gave you and your fellows sticks, and said, 'Beat the darkness out!' Chances are you would only end up accidentally beating each other. And it would not work. But light one candle, and all is light!"

Since reading that, I've been wondering intensely. The use of force seems essential. Noone would say that "lighting a candle" in that dark alleyway would have helped that woman; she needed someone to intervene, and with force that had teeth. Still, I keep going back to that passage in my mind. Recently, however, I read a chant from the Vedas. I forget exactly how it went, but it was something like this:

"Oh Ishwaar (God)! You feel powerful rage/indignation at crimes and criminals; let us also feel the same anger at crimes and criminals.

Oh Ishwaar! You feel delight when men draw near to you and grow in wisdom/virtue; let us also delight in the wise and virtuous."

There was more; not only feeling anger when evil is committed, but fighting to end injustice. It seemed to break some of the brain-fog that I felt when I had read the yogi's words about the candle. Yes, it is "okay" to fight, I thought.

In conclusion: I admire your will to fight. I wouldn't call what you did "for political purpose," only because in my opinion, "political purpose" implies worldly-minded manipulation. The words I'd use for it would be fighting the darkness, and that is always a good idea. Even if I disagree because I'm a China-phile. :p Your intention is straight-on!! If you were manipulating to try and nudge a political process because, say, you thought Candidate X might allow you to make more money (the kind of manipulation a corporation or entity like that would want,) then I'd disagree with that entirely obviously, but yeah.

For myself, as a US citizen, I trust my government and that of China roughly the same (they're both evil.) I wouldn't personally feel right doing visualization for my country against another, even if I thought it'd be ineffectual. But I think I understand what you mean by the dread you felt. I feel uneasiness with space exploration by our and China's governments alike.

I want only to say...WHY do we still nurture the thought of a warior??..Mahatma Gandhi did show to us that it is possible to by Peace actions and love change nations...we have to start to refuse to lift up our weapons...and say...NO...we are not going to fight each other´s....there is NO enemy...we all are same rase...HUMANS!!!

Love
ia

[Seeuzin]

IA56,

I used to think the same way.

Now I feel very twisted by what I have been through.

It's hard to know if the change in my opinion is accurate, or a byproduct of the twisting.

I'm sorry that I have hit a nerve in you.

*********

I was reading recently about a meeting between Ghandi and Winston Churchill, prior to British involvement in WW2. Winston was for the use of force, but had agreed to hear Ghandi out.

Ghandi had witnessed the brutality, the full force and shock of the war apparatus of Great Britain, in his country. He had seen India raped and plundered at the hands of a brutal oppressor; he had been thrown in prison merely for offering peaceable opposition to it.

Ghandi was against the use of British military force against Hitler. The reasons are obvious to me, now, but it shocked me to the core when I first read it. Ghandi most likely agreed that what Hitler did was evil. But he was thinking of the people of Germany, too; what would they suffer at the hands of such a barbarous force as the same army that had brought India to its knees; subjugated it so utterly?

In the meeting, Ghandi pleaded for non-violence with Churchill. The meeting ended with Churchill remarking derisively, as Ghandi left, that he'd "be a fool to listen to what a man in a loincloth had to say."

This story always stayed with me. Let me also add that I have a special place in my heart for the Jews, though I've no Jewish ancestors of my own.

Yet sometimes, I agree with Ghandi.

I am grateful that someone was willing to stand up against Hitler and rally others to do the same. But here was the meeting of two great minds - both of which I had long admired - and here they were in dire opposition. The whole story gave me pause.

***********

When it comes to darkness: Warrior spirit vs. peace and love.

I don't know the answer.

[IA56]

IA56,

I used to think the same way.

Now I feel very twisted by what I have been through.

It's hard to know if the change in my opinion is accurate, or a byproduct of the twisting.

I'm sorry that I have hit a nerve in you.

*********

I was reading recently about a meeting between Ghandi and Winston Churchill, prior to British involvement in WW2. Winston was for the use of force, but had agreed to hear Ghandi out.

Ghandi had witnessed the brutality, the full force and shock of the war apparatus of Great Britain, in his country. He had seen India raped and plundered at the hands of a brutal oppressor; he had been thrown in prison merely for offering peaceable opposition to it.

Ghandi was against the use of British military force against Hitler. The reasons are obvious to me, now, but it shocked me to the core when I first read it. Ghandi most likely agreed that what Hitler did was evil. But he was thinking of the people of Germany, too; what would they suffer at the hands of such a barbarous force as the same army that had brought India to its knees; subjugated it so utterly?

In the meeting, Ghandi pleaded for non-violence with Churchill. The meeting ended with Churchill remarking derisively, as Ghandi left, that he'd "be a fool to listen to what a man in a loincloth had to say."

This story always stayed with me. Let me also add that I have a special place in my heart for the Jews, though I've no Jewish ancestors of my own.

Yet sometimes, I agree with Ghandi.

I am grateful that someone was willing to stand up against Hitler and rally others to do the same. But here was the meeting of two great minds - both of which I had long admired - and here they were in dire opposition. The whole story gave me pause.

***********

When it comes to darkness: Warrior spirit vs. peace and love.

I don't know the answer.

You did not hit any nerv in me :-) only I am happy you brought this subject up, thank you :-)

What I feel is that Gandhi did not succeed to reach into every person...that if everyone did say NO to not take up their weapons and that everyone say NO...there wouldn´t have to start any war at all....and such person as Hitler wouldn´t had any opportunity to rule..but as we know we are week and seek after to be rich...and as long as this part is alive in us..we can be bought with right sum of Money or other items´s we want...as payment for cruelty to be done...SO...If everyone rather die than harm others...we very soon will have this problem solved....

Love
ia

[Seeuzin]

You did not hit any nerv in me :-) only I am happy you brought this subject up, thank you :-)

You are such a sweet spirit, IA.


we are week and seek after to be rich...and as long as this part is alive in us..we can be bought with right sum of Money or other items´s we want...as payment for cruelty to be done...

This hits a HUGE chord in me. Lately I have been realizing that not only in terms of money....but on every level...that darkness can only use two things against me: what I want, and what I don't want. Those are its primary weapons.

In short, when someone seeks to manipulate me, that's what they generally use. Pain/pleasure, fear/comfort, anger/addiction, scarcity/need-and-greed....even classic "hurt-and-rescue"....the dyad comes in different forms. And it is darkness that seeks to manipulate: good does not. If I want to be free from darkness, then I need to penetrate the fog and confusion and wanting and aversion, which are all tied together.

I think that's what the Buddha taught, but my brain's very fuzzy. He called the wants/not wants clinging and aversion, right?

And the Buddha was a peaceful man.

I have to apologize to Eyeoneblack. I have taken this thread far afield. I'll leave it for now. When I've slept well it'll be easier to stay on-topic, and I'll be back.

- Seeuzin

[ButterflyWoman]

that darkness can only use two things against me: what I want, and what I don't want.
Which is why the Buddha was big on releasing attachment to things, especially to things you do want and things you don't want. Jesus had similar sayings, though they're not that emphasised in the formal religion that sprang up around his teachings. Pretty much all great masters have come to understand that our desire is the thing that controls us.

[I-stone]

If compassion and love calls you to do something, then do it.

Suzan, I think there is a reason why 'only God knows the day and time of Christ's return'. At any time any one of such sparks of God may become the whole. Then what to do with the world?
Some understand that, and they can change the course of the world quite easily. So why havent they? Because there is nothing wrong with the world? Or is it because we are each that person.

i know, quoting scripture, but I dont know anyone better than Jesus for teaching limitless power.

"anything is possible"
"When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly." Jesus said to him, "Shall I come and heal him?" The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith."
If you change the world, it will be as a wave of your arm.

[Eyeswideopen]

I found this interesting :

Desire has been a big topic of controversy in the spiritual community.
Spiritual teachers (Like the Buddha) say that desire is the root of suffering. They say that happiness is the result of learning how to rid oneself of desire. But even the desire to rid yourself of desire, is a desire. So you can never truly rid yourself of desire and you can never lie to yourself enough to convince yourself that you don't want what you want. The desire that is emanating from every being in existence is what is causing the expansion of this universe. To come here and to not desire is to promote ended-ness within the universe. It goes directly against the reason you chose to come into physical existence to begin with. You are designed to desire. Desire is as true to you as pure being-ness. So why does desire cause us pain? The answer is, it doesn't.
Desire never caused pain. It's what we add to desire that causes us pain. What makes desire painful is thoughts like these: I can't have what I desire. I don't deserve to have what I want. I'm not good enough until I get this thing that I desire. What causes pain is continuing to focus on what you don't have or don't like or don't want after you have already given birth to the idea of what you do want.
There is no reason to feel as if desire is the enemy. Everything you love about existence, from living in houses instead of caves, to that perfect piece of chocolate cake, is available to you now because it was once the byproduct of someone else's desire and now, it is the byproduct of yours.

[IA56]

I found this interesting :

Desire has been a big topic of controversy in the spiritual community.
Spiritual teachers (Like the Buddha) say that desire is the root of suffering. They say that happiness is the result of learning how to rid oneself of desire. But even the desire to rid yourself of desire, is a desire. So you can never truly rid yourself of desire and you can never lie to yourself enough to convince yourself that you don't want what you want. The desire that is emanating from every being in existence is what is causing the expansion of this universe. To come here and to not desire is to promote ended-ness within the universe. It goes directly against the reason you chose to come into physical existence to begin with. You are designed to desire. Desire is as true to you as pure being-ness. So why does desire cause us pain? The answer is, it doesn't.
Desire never caused pain. It's what we add to desire that causes us pain. What makes desire painful is thoughts like these: I can't have what I desire. I don't deserve to have what I want. I'm not good enough until I get this thing that I desire. What causes pain is continuing to focus on what you don't have or don't like or don't want after you have already given birth to the idea of what you do want.
There is no reason to feel as if desire is the enemy. Everything you love about existence, from living in houses instead of caves, to that perfect piece of chocolate cake, is available to you now because it was once the byproduct of someone else's desire and now, it is the byproduct of yours.

Hi EWO :-)
There is difference between desire and desire....there is desire what causes suffering and there is decire what causes your soul to grow and develop so to speak :-)

Love
ia

[CFTraveler]

I would say that even the word that was used was desire, I think attachment to desire is what he meant. My opinion, of course. You can still desire and have no attachment to the outcome-and remember that the object for him was liberation. Not everyone wants to be liberated.

[ButterflyWoman]

I would say that even the word that was used was desire, I think attachment to desire is what he meant. My opinion, of course. You can still desire and have no attachment to the outcome-and remember that the object for him was liberation. Not everyone wants to be liberated.
Completely concur. It's the attachment to the thing you desire. That's where the problems come in. And I agree that most people don't actually want to be free. They might SAY they do, but they don't really, because you have to give up Everything in exchange for Nothing.

[IA56]

I would say that even the word that was used was desire, I think attachment to desire is what he meant. My opinion, of course. You can still desire and have no attachment to the outcome-and remember that the object for him was liberation. Not everyone wants to be liberated.

CFT, yes true that not all want liberation...that would be an interesting disscussion to hear other´s thought about :-)

Love
ia

[eyeoneblack]

Not everyone wants to be liberated.

Is THAT ever an understatement. :-D

[ButterflyWoman]

Is THAT ever an understatement. :-D
Could be phrased as, "Practically nobody wants to be liberated, and most of those who do think they want it, don't actually know what it is." :D

[IA56]

Hi BW, do you know what it is to be liberated, if you know, please share.

Love
ia





Could be phrased as, "Practically nobody wants to be liberated, and most of those who do think they want it, don't actually know what it is." :D

[ButterflyWoman]

Hi BW, do you know what it is to be liberated, if you know, please share.
No. And no.

[IA56]

Okay.

Love
ia





No. And no.