This is how a Christian can practice magic

[agapelove]

First, I want everyone to know that this is just a very rough draft and will be frequently updated (as long as you're willing to accept me in your community--much of what I say may go against the grain of this forum.) I don't want to start any drama. If you would prefer me to stop posting, just let me know.

About 6 months or a year ago, I posted a few threads here. After much investigation, study, and thought, this is the tentative conclusion that I have come to.

I have now come to use what I call the Corinthians Meat Defense.

In one chapter, Paul's all like, "Yeah man, eat the meat (sacrificed to idols). It's cool."

Then a few chapters later he's like, "Whoa there buddy, (to quote the Beatles) You can't do that."

The meat isn't the issue. It's all about which Elohim (dis-incarnate spirit) you pledge loyalty to. In the first instance, the meat is in the market (post-sacrifice). In the second instance, since, “an idol has no real existence” it would seem that members of the Corinthian church went ahead and participated in the sacrifice, believing that since idols aren't real, it was OK. That's why later, Paul reminds them that even though idols are nothing, the entities behind them are in fact real.

My main problem with Occult/New Age/etc. philosophy is the insistence that Monism must include YHVH-Elohim. This is my conception of monism:
|
|
|
YHVH | The ALL
|

To borrow from Hawking, this is my brief history of everything:

--God (YHVH) exists
--He creates the heavenly host and the universe as we know it. The 2nd heaven of the ancients would seem to correspond with the astral planes and the 3rd heaven with the mental planes.
--The plural language in Genesis refers to God speaking to his Divine Council saying, "Hey, I've got an idea: Let's create man in our image!"
--The Hebrew verbs that follow indicate a sole Creator--not a group effort.
--God gives man dominion over the earth
--This pisses off the Cosmic Beings because they are ontologically superior to us.
--A fallen Divine being, the Nachash (see works by Michael Heiser) decides to remedy the problem
--He figures that if he can get people to sin, God will either destroy them, or at least kick them out of the Divine council.
--Then the flood happens because of the transgression of the Heavenly/Earthly separation (Divine Beings mating with human women)
--After the flood, instead of doing what God said, they said @#%$ it.
--They built the tower of Babel and God's like, well, "I thought the flood would take care of this, but, if you don't want me to be your God, I'm going to put you under the authority of lesser Elohim.
--This is where the ancient pantheons came from
--Here's the quote from Deut. in the ESV translation: "When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God."

The rest of the Old Testament is about Israel vs the Nations and YHVH vs the gods of those nations.

New Testament theology fairly clearly says that those loyal to YHVH and His physical incarnation (Jesus of Nazareth) will displace the current spiritual hierarchy in place today.

So, how can a Christian practice magic? As you will see in the bibliography of Jewish Magical Practices, it's not so much the methods used to make contact--it's whose on the other end.

In the old days, you had to pledge allegiance to a Mystery School and their Deity(s).

Now, just as Alchemy is divorced from Chemistry, thanks to Bardon, the Christian can maintain loyalty to the Creator, without pledging allegiance to any one else.

TO Summarize

--Gods original intention was to have a human and divine family--heaven and earth united (Eden)
--That got messed up
--Ever since then He has been slowly working to bring His original intention to pass
--The current spiritual hierarchy will be displaced by those loyal to the Creator God.

In one sentence: magic is fine, as long as the Christian doesn't work with spirits disloyal to God and "tests the spirits" to see if they are loyal to the Creator God or to the lesser gods and spirit beings. Also, the New Testament is FULL of adoption language. The Christian is adopted into YHVH's family--never becomes one with Him. They partake in the inheritance and are co-rulers. The key for the Christian is to remember that God is God and you are you and this will never change. You will be part of his family, but when you merge with The ALL, you are merging with the universe, not God Himself.

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/JewishMagicBibliography.pdf

Mods: if I can't post links, please repost this for me. It's an academic 131 page bibliography of Jewish magical practices from thousands of years ago until now. [Mod Note: Checked the contents of the link, and it's entirely legit and not a problem. Approved, even though member has fewer than the usual required number of posts, under the "with moderator approval" clause.]

[CFTraveler]

Interesting exegesis.

[eyeoneblack]

Good research, agapelove. Keep it up :). Are you including study of Kabbalah? You might find there that Yahweh is distinct from the Creator God, sometimes referred to as the demi-urge.

Keep up the good work!

Richard

[javalinar]

Good research, agapelove. Keep it up :). Are you including study of Kabbalah? You might find there that Yahweh is distinct from the Creator God, sometimes referred to as the demi-urge.


Is Creator God 'Source' as often referred here? Or is "Source' yet another entity?

[eyeoneblack]

The Creator God precipitates from the Source. Is not in himself created but still a part of the Trinity - essentially the Holy Ghost. His Being is produced from the dark and sterile Mother. As the Creator of Matter he is often considered in less than a Holy and pure Light.

Now that you totally understand, I'm sure there'll be no more questions ;-).

[agapelove]

Creation: Genesis, Psalms, and Babylonian myth?

The most familiar Biblical creation account is obviously in Genesis. However, it would seem that Genesis wasn't the beginning. Genesis picks up where Psalm 74 leaves off:

12 Yet God my King is from of old,
working salvation in the midst of the earth.
13 You divided the sea by your might;
you broke the heads of the sea monsters[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms+74&version=ESV#fen-ESV-15062d)] on the waters.
14 You crushed the heads of Leviathan;
you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness.
15 You split open springs and brooks;
you dried up ever-flowing streams.
16 Yours is the day, yours also the night;
you have established the heavenly lights and the sun.
17 You have fixed all the boundaries of the earth;
you have made summer and winter.



Where we normally pick up in Genesis, is after the battle being described above.

2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

This is after God defeated Leviathan.

All ANE creation accounts have nothing to do with science as we know it.

Most ANE creation accounts are really about bringing order from Chaos and subduing it. Did Yahweh, Marduk, etc. literally fight a sea beast? My answer is no. The Psalmist wants to make a point using Ugaritic literature. It wasn't Baal, Marduk, etc. who subdued Chaos and made the Earth the way that it is today--it was Yahweh.

[agapelove]

For anyone reading this, this is how I think of the Bible, specifically in the areas of inspiration and inerrancy-- (this is a copy and pasted from another author (not me):


I affirm that the Bible is God-given revelation produced through the agency of human authors. The usual process of producing the Scriptures was one where human authors wrote on the basis of their own abilities, education, styles, worldview, backgrounds, and idiosyncrasies apart from a point-in-time divine encounter where the words of Scripture were chosen for the authors. Although there are instances in the biblical record where God is said to have dictated what would become part of the biblical text (e.g., Rev 2-3, the messages to the seven churches), such instances are rare.

The process of inspiration does not require us to contend that God verbally dictated the words of the Bible to the authors, though God did so on rare occasions, at times directly or through a divine agent. The process also does not require us to embrace the idea that God impressed each word on the mind of the author through some silent, mental process, as though the author’s mind was overtaken by God. Having providentially prepared each writer, I believe God presented the biblical writers with truth through a range of means, including (but not limited to) dramatic displays of divine power, time spent listening to the incarnate Christ, formal education, the reading of Scripture already extant, insight given by the Spirit, religious training, and sensitivity to the working of God in their own lives through spiritual devotion. All of these forces and more molded the lives and minds of the authors of the Bible under an over-arching divine providence, preparing them to write that which God would move the believing community to embrace as canonical.

While God providentially prepared the writers of the Bible to produce His truth and providentially oversaw the results of their work, this process of inspiration of necessity involved divine accommodation.� God was perfectly capable and content to use human language to convey truth to humanity. Divine accommodation in the context of the process of inspiration should not be understood as though the biblical writers chose to communicate with their audience in such a way as to accommodate less learned people. I reject the notion that one human (the author) received words from God and then had to dumb down those words for other people (their audience). This is not divine accommodation, but human accommodation, and is a caricature of what divine accommodation really is: the decision of God to be willing to allow his weak, limited human creatures to write about who He is and what He has done.
In view of the above, I affirm that God used human language to the degree he deemed sufficient, so as to accomplish the creation of the canonical books. �Humans do not express anything about God perfectly or completely, nor could God reveal anything about Himself in an exhaustive and comprehensive way, as human minds would be unable to comprehend this fullness. Since humans cannot receive all God is, all God thinks, and all God does, what they produce in writing, even under the providence of God, will be articulated in ways that show their limited capacities and finite understanding of God, His ways, and His world. These shortfalls should not be construed as errors, since to do so would be to charge the human author with possessing the limitations of humanity, as though the writer could have circumvented those limitations. That the human writers of antiquity chosen by God were writing under the constraints of an imperfect understanding of science is to affirm the obvious. To contend that this means the point of the inspiration process was meant to factualize ancient scientific notions as points of dogma is to extrapolate from that obvious point to an unnecessary conclusion.� I affirm that the standard for God’s acceptance of the process of inspiration was not the production of material that neither the ancient writer nor his initial audience could have comprehended. Rather, God used humans as they were, with all their limitations, much in the same way He left the task of evangelism and administration of His Body, the Church, to weak human beings. Nevertheless, in grace God chose to use human agents to produce revelation about Himself for human posterity. God was willing and able to use human writers, who utilized a range of normal communicative literary techniques, and who wrote according to deliberate theological agendas, to adequately and accurately (but imperfectly) describe Himself, His plan, His purposes, His acts in history, and His creative acts. God was likewise willing and able to preserve the writers from making erroneous statements about Himself, His plan, His purposes, and His acts in history and His creative acts.

I affirm, therefore, that while the providentially-prepared human authors were the immediate source of most of the words of Scripture, God is still the ultimate source of the words of each canonical book. His work of providence was sufficient at every point of the way to ensure that the words that he intended to be in Scripture, and no others, are in fact therein. The Bible derives its authority from this providentially-guided process.� The Bible’s authority in turn is higher than that of any church, local or corporate, and any tradition about the Bible and its contents, since that tradition did not derive from the same inspiration process as the Bible itself.
I affirm that the process of inspiration included not only the initial composition of a biblical book but also any subsequent editorial work done on the text of that book prior to the recognition of a completed sacred canon. Evidence in hand leads to the conclusion that the process of producing the Scripture text was subject to editorial activity in terms of additions, deletions, rearrangement, and repurposing. I believe that God oversaw any such process by means of providential influence in the decisions made by authors and editors so that the words of each canonical book met with God’s approval. Any writer or editorial hand whose work of composition or editing preceded the final form of a given canonical book and whose work finds expression in the final canonical text was a participant in the process of inspiration.
With respect to learning from the incarnate Christ, and with respect to the process of inspiration, the gospel writers were not required to reproduce the exact “real time” words that Jesus spoke, nor did they, as we know from the synoptic gospels. Rather, they learned truth and transmitted it in writing as their life context dictated under providence, at times capturing the ideas they heard very closely, perhaps even verbatim, on other occasions applying it in different vocabulary as the need arose. I believe the written result (in its final form) was entirely faithful and accurate with respect to the content of Jesus’ teaching.
As with hearing the words of Jesus, the writers of Scripture were likewise not required to memorize all the Scripture they heard and learned when writing their own works that would be recognized as canonical. Rather, they were free to apply preceding Scripture and quote it as needed to teach sound doctrine or make a theological point. The gap between many quotations of Scripture and the source manuscripts from which those quotations came shows us that the writers did not need to reproduce every word they found in the texts they quote, or in the exact order they found them in. At times their own context for writing or quoting a text required that the earlier Scripture text of the Old Testament be repurposed in a different literary form or adapted to reinforce a specific exegetical or theological point found elsewhere in the canonical text.

[IA56]

For anyone reading this, this is how I think of the Bible, specifically in the areas of inspiration and inerrancy-- (this is a copy and pasted from another author (not me):

I affirm that the Bible is God-given revelation produced through the agency of human authors. The usual process of producing the Scriptures was one where human authors wrote on the basis of their own abilities, education, styles, worldview, backgrounds, and idiosyncrasies apart from a point-in-time divine encounter where the words of Scripture were chosen for the authors. Although there are instances in the biblical record where God is said to have dictated what would become part of the biblical text (e.g., Rev 2-3, the messages to the seven churches), such instances are rare.

The process of inspiration does not require us to contend that God verbally dictated the words of the Bible to the authors, though God did so on rare occasions, at times directly or through a divine agent. The process also does not require us to embrace the idea that God impressed each word on the mind of the author through some silent, mental process, as though the author’s mind was overtaken by God. Having providentially prepared each writer, I believe God presented the biblical writers with truth through a range of means, including (but not limited to) dramatic displays of divine power, time spent listening to the incarnate Christ, formal education, the reading of Scripture already extant, insight given by the Spirit, religious training, and sensitivity to the working of God in their own lives through spiritual devotion. All of these forces and more molded the lives and minds of the authors of the Bible under an over-arching divine providence, preparing them to write that which God would move the believing community to embrace as canonical.

While God providentially prepared the writers of the Bible to produce His truth and providentially oversaw the results of their work, this process of inspiration of necessity involved divine accommodation.� God was perfectly capable and content to use human language to convey truth to humanity. Divine accommodation in the context of the process of inspiration should not be understood as though the biblical writers chose to communicate with their audience in such a way as to accommodate less learned people. I reject the notion that one human (the author) received words from God and then had to dumb down those words for other people (their audience). This is not divine accommodation, but human accommodation, and is a caricature of what divine accommodation really is: the decision of God to be willing to allow his weak, limited human creatures to write about who He is and what He has done.
In view of the above, I affirm that God used human language to the degree he deemed sufficient, so as to accomplish the creation of the canonical books. �Humans do not express anything about God perfectly or completely, nor could God reveal anything about Himself in an exhaustive and comprehensive way, as human minds would be unable to comprehend this fullness. Since humans cannot receive all God is, all God thinks, and all God does, what they produce in writing, even under the providence of God, will be articulated in ways that show their limited capacities and finite understanding of God, His ways, and His world. These shortfalls should not be construed as errors, since to do so would be to charge the human author with possessing the limitations of humanity, as though the writer could have circumvented those limitations. That the human writers of antiquity chosen by God were writing under the constraints of an imperfect understanding of science is to affirm the obvious. To contend that this means the point of the inspiration process was meant to factualize ancient scientific notions as points of dogma is to extrapolate from that obvious point to an unnecessary conclusion.� I affirm that the standard for God’s acceptance of the process of inspiration was not the production of material that neither the ancient writer nor his initial audience could have comprehended. Rather, God used humans as they were, with all their limitations, much in the same way He left the task of evangelism and administration of His Body, the Church, to weak human beings. Nevertheless, in grace God chose to use human agents to produce revelation about Himself for human posterity. God was willing and able to use human writers, who utilized a range of normal communicative literary techniques, and who wrote according to deliberate theological agendas, to adequately and accurately (but imperfectly) describe Himself, His plan, His purposes, His acts in history, and His creative acts. God was likewise willing and able to preserve the writers from making erroneous statements about Himself, His plan, His purposes, and His acts in history and His creative acts.

I affirm, therefore, that while the providentially-prepared human authors were the immediate source of most of the words of Scripture, God is still the ultimate source of the words of each canonical book. His work of providence was sufficient at every point of the way to ensure that the words that he intended to be in Scripture, and no others, are in fact therein. The Bible derives its authority from this providentially-guided process.� The Bible’s authority in turn is higher than that of any church, local or corporate, and any tradition about the Bible and its contents, since that tradition did not derive from the same inspiration process as the Bible itself.
I affirm that the process of inspiration included not only the initial composition of a biblical book but also any subsequent editorial work done on the text of that book prior to the recognition of a completed sacred canon. Evidence in hand leads to the conclusion that the process of producing the Scripture text was subject to editorial activity in terms of additions, deletions, rearrangement, and repurposing. I believe that God oversaw any such process by means of providential influence in the decisions made by authors and editors so that the words of each canonical book met with God’s approval. Any writer or editorial hand whose work of composition or editing preceded the final form of a given canonical book and whose work finds expression in the final canonical text was a participant in the process of inspiration.
With respect to learning from the incarnate Christ, and with respect to the process of inspiration, the gospel writers were not required to reproduce the exact “real time” words that Jesus spoke, nor did they, as we know from the synoptic gospels. Rather, they learned truth and transmitted it in writing as their life context dictated under providence, at times capturing the ideas they heard very closely, perhaps even verbatim, on other occasions applying it in different vocabulary as the need arose. I believe the written result (in its final form) was entirely faithful and accurate with respect to the content of Jesus’ teaching.
As with hearing the words of Jesus, the writers of Scripture were likewise not required to memorize all the Scripture they heard and learned when writing their own works that would be recognized as canonical. Rather, they were free to apply preceding Scripture and quote it as needed to teach sound doctrine or make a theological point. The gap between many quotations of Scripture and the source manuscripts from which those quotations came shows us that the writers did not need to reproduce every word they found in the texts they quote, or in the exact order they found them in. At times their own context for writing or quoting a text required that the earlier Scripture text of the Old Testament be repurposed in a different literary form or adapted to reinforce a specific exegetical or theological point found elsewhere in the canonical text.




Yes, I can very much agree with this writer, I have own experience to have met JHWH on what I call dividerline, the line between duality and infinity the Oneness...I wouldn´t have understood the difference if not I got to expereinced it through JHWH, it like echoed through him so I could understand the difference....Everything happens in duality and here are all the Changes made and has to be made Before you can enter to Oneness....and all re-incarnation happens in duality over and over again until you are ready to enter to Oneness, pure and willing to be part of the Oneness without ego and what we call here ...personallity...or individuality....In Oneness we are part of the ONE and not fractioned as here in duality.

Love
ia

[agapelove]

Deut. 32, Psalm 82, the New Testament, and where and why Christian theology and philosophy differs from Occult and New Age theology and philosophy. For any Christian who wishes to practice magic, these are some of the ideas that need to be thought about and addressed.

First, let's recap what's been said already:

This is how I would define a Christian:

1.) You believe that the God of Israel is the only uncreated, ontologically unique and superior being.
2.) You believe that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the only physical incarnation of the God of Israel.
3.) You believe that there is something separating us from God and that in some way this was repaired, or at least began to be repaired, at the resurrection.
4.) You believe that Christ is the only way of "salvation" (it's in quotes because who really knows what that means? We'll discuss it later.)
5.) You believe in the literal death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Deut 32:8 says ( 2 different translations, one from Formal Equivalence, the other from Dynamic Equivalence),

"When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-5767a)] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-5767b)]"

"When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided up humankind,
he set the boundaries of the peoples,
according to the number of the heavenly assembly."

Deut 32 is saying that after the tower of Babel incident, YHVH gave dominion over the Earth to lesser gods. This is the ancient Jewish explanation for where the pantheons came from. Then, He started over, from scratch, with Abraham, He set aside Israel as His particular portion to be His inheritance.

Israel was supposed to:

1.) Remain completely separate from the other nations. Why? Because they (Israel) were Yahweh's own portion.
2.) Remain completely separate from the gods of these other nations. Why? Because the other people belonged to these gods and Israel belonged to Yahweh.
3.) Follow the Law given to Moses. Basically, live the way your God wants you to.

The plan, if they had actually done these things, was to bring the rest of the world back to Yahweh through the conduit of Israel. Jerusalem was supposed to be Yahweh's dwelling place on Earth, the nations would repent, and everything would be hunky dory.

As we all know, Israel sucked at this and failed. However, it turns out that mortals aren't the only ones who didn't do their jobs well. Here's Psalm 82:

"God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-15241a)]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!"

This basically says that the gods who were given dominion over the Earth after Babel weren't very good stewards. In fact, they receive a judgment, and a pretty harsh one at that: Death! They are sentenced to lose their immortality.

So, in the OT here's the hierarchy:

1.) Invisible Yahweh
2.) Visible Yahweh (Angel of the Lord, the Name, a man, Wisdom, etc.)
3.) Sons of God (The beings of this rank are the ones that received control of the nations after Babel and are also the ones responsible for Genesis 6 (the flood).
4.) Angels (aka “messengers”)

Keep this in mind:

6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-15241a)]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!"

This where the New Testament comes in. The NT says that Christians will replace and judge these gods or cosmic beings. I cannot stress this enough: the Cosmic Beings who are currently running things are going to die, losing their immortality, and then be replaced by us.

This is why Paul, in Corinthians, says, “Do you not know that we are to judge angels?”

Remember the Old Testament hierarchy:


Invisible Yahweh
Visible Yahweh (Angel of the Lord, the Name, a man, Wisdom, etc.)
Sons of God (The beings of this rank are the ones that received control of the nations after Babel and are also the ones responsible for Genesis 6 (the flood).
Angels (aka “messengers”)


New Testament theology states that we get promoted to #3. That is why in the NT these beings are never talked about positively, only negatively (the only possibility would be the “glorious ones” of Jude and Peter). We’re taking their jobs and they’re basically getting thrown out—in fact, they receive a death sentence. No wonder they’re pissed.

Now let’s get to comparing and contrasting (just a few to start):

Judeo-Christian:
Dualism: God is separate from everything else (creation).

Occult and New Age:
Monism: God is not separate, everything is a part of God, (The ALL).

Judeo-Christian:
God has a family and He wants us in it. He wants us as sons and daughters.

Occult and New Age:
People and other beings aren’t part of God’s family, they are a part of Him.

Judeo-Christian:
People are transformed and become part of the Divine realm through the work of Christ.

Occult and New Age:
People are transformed and become part of the Divine realm through slow evolution and spiritual exercises.

Goodbye for now!

[IA56]

Deut. 32, Psalm 82, the New Testament, and where and why Christian theology and philosophy differs from Occult and New Age theology and philosophy. For any Christian who wishes to practice magic, these are some of the ideas that need to be thought about and addressed.

First, let's recap what's been said already:

This is how I would define a Christian:

1.) You believe that the God of Israel is the only uncreated, ontologically unique and superior being.
2.) You believe that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the only physical incarnation of the God of Israel.
3.) You believe that there is something separating us from God and that in some way this was repaired, or at least began to be repaired, at the resurrection.
4.) You believe that Christ is the only way of "salvation" (it's in quotes because who really knows what that means? We'll discuss it later.)
5.) You believe in the literal death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Deut 32:8 says ( 2 different translations, one from Formal Equivalence, the other from Dynamic Equivalence),

"When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-5767a)] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-5767b)]"

"When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided up humankind,
he set the boundaries of the peoples,
according to the number of the heavenly assembly."

Deut 32 is saying that after the tower of Babel incident, YHVH gave dominion over the Earth to lesser gods. This is the ancient Jewish explanation for where the pantheons came from. Then, He started over, from scratch, with Abraham, He set aside Israel as His particular portion to be His inheritance.

Israel was supposed to:

1.) Remain completely separate from the other nations. Why? Because they (Israel) were Yahweh's own portion.
2.) Remain completely separate from the gods of these other nations. Why? Because the other people belonged to these gods and Israel belonged to Yahweh.
3.) Follow the Law given to Moses. Basically, live the way your God wants you to.

The plan, if they had actually done these things, was to bring the rest of the world back to Yahweh through the conduit of Israel. Jerusalem was supposed to be Yahweh's dwelling place on Earth, the nations would repent, and everything would be hunky dory.

As we all know, Israel sucked at this and failed. However, it turns out that mortals aren't the only ones who didn't do their jobs well. Here's Psalm 82:

"God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-15241a)]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!"

This basically says that the gods who were given dominion over the Earth after Babel weren't very good stewards. In fact, they receive a judgment, and a pretty harsh one at that: Death! They are sentenced to lose their immortality.

So, in the OT here's the hierarchy:

1.) Invisible Yahweh
2.) Visible Yahweh (Angel of the Lord, the Name, a man, Wisdom, etc.)
3.) Sons of God (The beings of this rank are the ones that received control of the nations after Babel and are also the ones responsible for Genesis 6 (the flood).
4.) Angels (aka “messengers”)

Keep this in mind:

6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-15241a)]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!"

This where the New Testament comes in. The NT says that Christians will replace and judge these gods or cosmic beings. I cannot stress this enough: the Cosmic Beings who are currently running things are going to die, losing their immortality, and then be replaced by us.

This is why Paul, in Corinthians, says, “Do you not know that we are to judge angels?”

Remember the Old Testament hierarchy:


Invisible Yahweh
Visible Yahweh (Angel of the Lord, the Name, a man, Wisdom, etc.)
Sons of God (The beings of this rank are the ones that received control of the nations after Babel and are also the ones responsible for Genesis 6 (the flood).
Angels (aka “messengers”)


New Testament theology states that we get promoted to #3. That is why in the NT these beings are never talked about positively, only negatively (the only possibility would be the “glorious ones” of Jude and Peter). We’re taking their jobs and they’re basically getting thrown out—in fact, they receive a death sentence. No wonder they’re pissed.

Now let’s get to comparing and contrasting (just a few to start):

Judeo-Christian:
Dualism: God is separate from everything else (creation).

Occult and New Age:
Monism: God is not separate, everything is a part of God, (The ALL).

Judeo-Christian:
God has a family and He wants us in it. He wants us as sons and daughters.

Occult and New Age:
People and other beings aren’t part of God’s family, they are a part of Him.

Judeo-Christian:
People are transformed and become part of the Divine realm through the work of Christ.

Occult and New Age:
People are transformed and become part of the Divine realm through slow evolution and spiritual exercises.

Goodbye for now!

Hi agapelove,
I can not argue with you about anything you say, but I do react to what you wrote about we replacing angel´s and they are cast out and got a Death sentence.....IF evolution is working this way, do how and why would anyone be pissed off?? We know nothing is for ever, and yeah Death is real and a good thing too. Think how horrible it would be if not Death did not exist...you would for ever be what you are born to, maybe dissabled and stuck in a body what is broken from the begining. No, I do not buy that. There is more to existense and evolution and to the highest inteligence. We also know that be too long in something you go blind and stagnate, so to be puched and re-placed is a good thing, nothing die´s per se...only evolves to something els. I do Believe all is GOOD and all is GOD.

Love
ia

[John Sorensen]

Deut. 32, Psalm 82, the New Testament, and where and why Christian theology and philosophy differs from Occult and New Age theology and philosophy. For any Christian who wishes to practice magic, these are some of the ideas that need to be thought about and addressed.

First, let's recap what's been said already:

This is how I would define a Christian:

1.) You believe that the God of Israel is the only uncreated, ontologically unique and superior being.
2.) You believe that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the only physical incarnation of the God of Israel.
3.) You believe that there is something separating us from God and that in some way this was repaired, or at least began to be repaired, at the resurrection.
4.) You believe that Christ is the only way of "salvation" (it's in quotes because who really knows what that means? We'll discuss it later.)
5.) You believe in the literal death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Deut 32:8 says ( 2 different translations, one from Formal Equivalence, the other from Dynamic Equivalence),

"When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-5767a)] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-5767b)]"

"When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided up humankind,
he set the boundaries of the peoples,
according to the number of the heavenly assembly."

Deut 32 is saying that after the tower of Babel incident, YHVH gave dominion over the Earth to lesser gods. This is the ancient Jewish explanation for where the pantheons came from. Then, He started over, from scratch, with Abraham, He set aside Israel as His particular portion to be His inheritance.

Israel was supposed to:

1.) Remain completely separate from the other nations. Why? Because they (Israel) were Yahweh's own portion.
2.) Remain completely separate from the gods of these other nations. Why? Because the other people belonged to these gods and Israel belonged to Yahweh.
3.) Follow the Law given to Moses. Basically, live the way your God wants you to.

The plan, if they had actually done these things, was to bring the rest of the world back to Yahweh through the conduit of Israel. Jerusalem was supposed to be Yahweh's dwelling place on Earth, the nations would repent, and everything would be hunky dory.

As we all know, Israel sucked at this and failed. However, it turns out that mortals aren't the only ones who didn't do their jobs well. Here's Psalm 82:

"God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-15241a)]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!"

This basically says that the gods who were given dominion over the Earth after Babel weren't very good stewards. In fact, they receive a judgment, and a pretty harsh one at that: Death! They are sentenced to lose their immortality.

So, in the OT here's the hierarchy:

1.) Invisible Yahweh
2.) Visible Yahweh (Angel of the Lord, the Name, a man, Wisdom, etc.)
3.) Sons of God (The beings of this rank are the ones that received control of the nations after Babel and are also the ones responsible for Genesis 6 (the flood).
4.) Angels (aka “messengers”)

Keep this in mind:

6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2082%3B%20deut%2032%3A8&version=ESV;NET#fen-ESV-15241a)]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!"

This where the New Testament comes in. The NT says that Christians will replace and judge these gods or cosmic beings. I cannot stress this enough: the Cosmic Beings who are currently running things are going to die, losing their immortality, and then be replaced by us.

This is why Paul, in Corinthians, says, “Do you not know that we are to judge angels?”

Remember the Old Testament hierarchy:


Invisible Yahweh
Visible Yahweh (Angel of the Lord, the Name, a man, Wisdom, etc.)
Sons of God (The beings of this rank are the ones that received control of the nations after Babel and are also the ones responsible for Genesis 6 (the flood).
Angels (aka “messengers”)


New Testament theology states that we get promoted to #3. That is why in the NT these beings are never talked about positively, only negatively (the only possibility would be the “glorious ones” of Jude and Peter). We’re taking their jobs and they’re basically getting thrown out—in fact, they receive a death sentence. No wonder they’re pissed.

Now let’s get to comparing and contrasting (just a few to start):

Judeo-Christian:
Dualism: God is separate from everything else (creation).

Occult and New Age:
Monism: God is not separate, everything is a part of God, (The ALL).

Judeo-Christian:
God has a family and He wants us in it. He wants us as sons and daughters.

Occult and New Age:
People and other beings aren’t part of God’s family, they are a part of Him.

Judeo-Christian:
People are transformed and become part of the Divine realm through the work of Christ.

Occult and New Age:
People are transformed and become part of the Divine realm through slow evolution and spiritual exercises.

Goodbye for now!


Awesome post, following the logic herein, how does an immortal being die?

Is this referring to a material being dying or a non-material being?

I ask, as either way energy "can not be destroyed", only transformed, as quantum physics demonstrates.

Also, what is the definition of the word "die" in your post as you choose to use it.

Does it mean:
*Transformation
*Non-existence
*Separation
*Unity
*Other?

[John Sorensen]

Yes, I can very much agree with this writer, I have own experience to have met JHWH on what I call divider line, the line between duality and infinity the Oneness...I wouldn´t have understood the difference if not I got to experienced it through JHWH, it like echoed through him so I could understand the difference....Everything happens in duality and here are all the Changes made and has to be made Before you can enter to Oneness....and all re-incarnation happens in duality over and over again until you are ready to enter to Oneness, pure and willing to be part of the Oneness without ego and what we call here ...personality...or individuality....In Oneness we are part of the ONE and not fractioned as here in duality.

Love
ia


I find it an erroneous assumption in New Age thought that one must be either "blissfully submerged" into Oneness or an individual, the many writings of channelled Mediums such as the Seth material, Abraham (Jerry and Esther Hick), Bashar, Lazaris, Pleiadean, Ashtar and friends clearly demonstrates "Group Consciousness" that is made up of Individuals.

I find that the wish to be submerged into "oneness" or nothingness it not that different from Nihilism.

It also suggests taking no responsibility for your thoughts/actions/creation, instead relying on a cosmic parent, authority figure, rather than being a conscious co-creator.

Of course, this is just my current opinion, and I may be wrong.

[IA56]

I find it an erroneous assumption in New Age thought that one must be either "blissfully submerged" into Oneness or an individual, the many writings of channelled Mediums such as the Seth material, Abraham (Jerry and Esther Hick), Bashar, Lazaris, Pleiadean, Ashtar and friends clearly demonstrates "Group Consciousness" that is made up of Individuals.

I find that the wish to be submerged into "oneness" or nothingness it not that different from Nihilism.

It also suggests taking no responsibility for your thoughts/actions/creation, instead relying on a cosmic parent, authority figure, rather than being a conscious co-creator.

Of course, this is just my current opinion, and I may be wrong.

Hi John,
I am not sure what your are saying, but my experience with the JHWH was to understand the distintion between duality and non-duality...It was absolut to take own responsibillity for own actions and know that what you sow you reap, and to go through the narrow gate into the infinit where it is all but very different how it is in duality.
I did get to know that you can keep going in the re-incarnation Wheel and it is okay, or you can take the direct path so to speak, but it is more challenging...I do not say at all what I Think you Think I am...when you say New Age...I am far from that, but what is wrong with me is my disabillity to make me understood by word´s.
So I would appreciata if you would have a non jugmental tone against me, I have just started to study Gnosis and Kabbalah, I have not studied Bible but I get a lot quetes send to me into my mind, so in some Life or level I must have known much about religions...My take to religions today is...that all religions have the same core...so a metaphor I like to use is...that it does not matter from what side of the moutain you climb you will reach the top eventually :-)
So I ask for your patience and understanding, I am very fragile individual trying to find my strength in the World to be able to paritiscipate in conversations like this. Just saying...and hoping to grow as a human, as a soul it does not matter that much, so to speak, I have learned to be by my self too, but I am not going to go into a dispute or hars argument, it is not Worth it.

Love
ia

[John Sorensen]

Hi John,
I am not sure what your are saying, but my experience with the JHWH was to understand the distintion between duality and non-duality...It was absolut to take own responsibillity for own actions and know that what you sow you reap, and to go through the narrow gate into the infinit where it is all but very different how it is in duality.
I did get to know that you can keep going in the re-incarnation Wheel and it is okay, or you can take the direct path so to speak, but it is more challenging...I do not say at all what I Think you Think I am...when you say New Age...I am far from that, but what is wrong with me is my disabillity to make me understood by word´s.
So I would appreciata if you would have a non jugmental tone against me, I have just started to study Gnosis and Kabbalah, I have not studied Bible but I get a lot quetes send to me into my mind, so in some Life or level I must have known much about religions...My take to religions today is...that all religions have the same core...so a metaphor I like to use is...that it does not matter from what side of the moutain you climb you will reach the top eventually :-)
So I ask for your patience and understanding, I am very fragile individual trying to find my strength in the World to be able to paritiscipate in conversations like this. Just saying...and hoping to grow as a human, as a soul it does not matter that much, so to speak, I have learned to be by my self too, but I am not going to go into a dispute or hars argument, it is not Worth it.

Love
ia

I am not looking for arguments, just stating a different point of view.

I am stimulated by contrasts and different points of view, and enjoy reading your posts.

My comment was more in general and not directed specifically at you.

You already have all the strength you need. Your thoughts and mind are your own, and you imagination knows no limits, and what greater strength is there than that, in this world or the next.

My manner is rather direct, and at times too strong/arrogant for some people, I apologise as my intent was not to "attack" you as such, but re-reading my post, it does come across that way, next time I will choose my words better.

699

[IA56]

I am not looking for arguments, just stating a different point of view.

I am stimulated by contrasts and different points of view, and enjoy reading your posts.

My comment was more in general and not directed specifically at you.

You already have all the strength you need. Your thoughts and mind are your own, and you imagination knows no limits, and what greater strength is there than that, in this world or the next.

My manner is rather direct, and at times too strong/arrogant for some people, I apologise as my intent was not to "attack" you as such, but re-reading my post, it does come across that way, next time I will choose my words better.

699

Hi John,
I do not Think you have to change your "manner" when I learn to know you, so thank you for telling as you did, and that you know yourself so well, yes it did come through as arrogance and intensity like an attack, and it is okay I am not going to re-make you so to speak, but as I feel, it is good to let one and Another know how we are, then it is better Communication. Now you know how sensitive I am, so carry on being you, I am willing to "train" my self in your Company, if you understand what and how I mean??
I am very sensitive to being cattegorized as you say, I am free and without any boundaries...I am cutting of the chaines what has bean holding be back and made me fearful to my own nature.
Thank you for being so frank and truthful, I like you.

Love
ia

[eyeoneblack]

I find that the wish to be submerged into "oneness" or nothingness it not that different from Nihilism.


It also suggests taking no responsibility for your thoughts/actions/creation, instead relying on a cosmic parent, authority figure, rather than being a conscious co-creator.

Ouch. The first statement totally misses the point. Nihilism rejects, philosophically, the meaning of opposing philosophical paradigms and does not speak to the awareness associated with Nirvana.

With the second you actually redeem yourself to some extent by even mentioning the true nature of 'oneness' - the realization of being a co-creator. Personally I am more conservative than even that by the understanding that the personality, the notion that a person is somehow conserved in his individuality even at the high stage or awareness of Nirvana, is a myth of peculiar Western origins. To become a drop in the sea of consciousness is the true liberation on the one hand, and communion on the other.

Sure it's been mentioned (I haven't read the tread) that the list is a long one of Christian mystics. St John of Cross has been a study of mine. Esoterically, Christian mystics do not part from their eastern analogs. Exoterically is a much different question.

[CFTraveler]

I think, as interesting as the thread is, that most of you are missing the point of the OP's reason for posting this thread. He's not trying to describe reality from the point of view of eastern or western mysticism, or any combination thereof- he is, as a 'traditional' practicing christian, justifying mystical pursuits within the 'fundamentally-oriented' christian paradigm, basically for any evangelical or fundamental christian to see. I see this as valuable, because it doesn't substitute his particular beliefs for ours, it simply makes it 'ok' within his paradigm to pursue this type of search.

[eyeoneblack]

Did I say it somewhere else? There is a long list of Christian mystics. However they were of esoterica. Exoteric teachings warn against mysticism of any sort. St. John of Cross - a Benedictine monk, was a study I undertook years ago and describes the Ascent of Mt. Carmel which is a good and poetic description of the path to Christ Consciousnes.

[agapelove]

CFT--I'm short on time right now, I'd like to write more...but I just wanted to say thank you so much. Broadly, the purpose of this thread is for people who are unwilling to accept that the God of Israel (and in the NT Christ) is not THE GOD and for people unwilling to accept theistic monism (I think you can easily have monism without God being part of it, but that's for another time).

Christians who are interested in the these types of things read books like PhD and neuroscientist Mario Beauregard's Spritual Brain and Brain Wars. The books are written by secular, non-Christian academics. What I want to do is try to address problems like this:

These books are written to argue against Philosophical Materialist Reductionism and to address the mind/body problem. One of the evidences used in the books are NDEs and OBEs. What I want to answer is, if Christians are totally prohibited from transgressing the boundary between "heaven" and "earth," (and I have a pretty good theory that the boundary may have been done away with--the rending of the veil in the temple at Christ's death--more later). How are we ever supposed to convince a scientist that a spiritual dimension does exist if we're not allowed to purposely induce OBEs? Do you see how we're caught between a rock and a hard place?

And then, say string theory finds a way to access any old dimension with technology instead of with spiritual techniques. What then? Is it just the next new technology, or is it morally wrong to use such technology?

If Christians do turn out to be right, then what we have is only "bad" (sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm so sorry) people accessing the immaterial realm. That doesn't seem right to me?

Thanks again for your super helpful reply.

[John Sorensen]

I think, as interesting as the thread is, that most of you are missing the point of the OP's reason for posting this thread. He's not trying to describe reality from the point of view of eastern or western mysticism, or any combination thereof- he is, as a 'traditional' practicing christian, justifying mystical pursuits within the 'fundamentally-oriented' christian paradigm, basically for any evangelical or fundamental christian to see. I see this as valuable, because it doesn't substitute his particular beliefs for ours, it simply makes it 'ok' within his paradigm to pursue this type of search.


Whoops, I didn't read all of the first post in this thread, only the following posts. If I'm going on a tangent, I'll just start a new thread, *apologies*

[John Sorensen]

First, I want everyone to know that this is just a very rough draft and will be frequently updated (as long as you're willing to accept me in your community--much of what I say may go against the grain of this forum.) I don't want to start any drama. If you would prefer me to stop posting, just let me know.

About 6 months or a year ago, I posted a few threads here. After much investigation, study, and thought, this is the tentative conclusion that I have come to.

I have now come to use what I call the Corinthians Meat Defense.

In one chapter, Paul's all like, "Yeah man, eat the meat (sacrificed to idols). It's cool."

Then a few chapters later he's like, "Whoa there buddy, (to quote the Beatles) You can't do that."

The meat isn't the issue. It's all about which Elohim (dis-incarnate spirit) you pledge loyalty to. In the first instance, the meat is in the market (post-sacrifice). In the second instance, since, “an idol has no real existence” it would seem that members of the Corinthian church went ahead and participated in the sacrifice, believing that since idols aren't real, it was OK. That's why later, Paul reminds them that even though idols are nothing, the entities behind them are in fact real.

My main problem with Occult/New Age/etc. philosophy is the insistence that Monism must include YHVH-Elohim. This is my conception of monism:
|
|
|
YHVH | The ALL
|

To borrow from Hawking, this is my brief history of everything:

--God (YHVH) exists
--He creates the heavenly host and the universe as we know it. The 2nd heaven of the ancients would seem to correspond with the astral planes and the 3rd heaven with the mental planes.
--The plural language in Genesis refers to God speaking to his Divine Council saying, "Hey, I've got an idea: Let's create man in our image!"
--The Hebrew verbs that follow indicate a sole Creator--not a group effort.
--God gives man dominion over the earth
--This pisses off the Cosmic Beings because they are ontologically superior to us.
--A fallen Divine being, the Nachash (see works by Michael Heiser) decides to remedy the problem
--He figures that if he can get people to sin, God will either destroy them, or at least kick them out of the Divine council.
--Then the flood happens because of the transgression of the Heavenly/Earthly separation (Divine Beings mating with human women)
--After the flood, instead of doing what God said, they said @#%$ it.
--They built the tower of Babel and God's like, well, "I thought the flood would take care of this, but, if you don't want me to be your God, I'm going to put you under the authority of lesser Elohim.
--This is where the ancient pantheons came from
--Here's the quote from Deut. in the ESV translation: "When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God."

The rest of the Old Testament is about Israel vs the Nations and YHVH vs the gods of those nations.

New Testament theology fairly clearly says that those loyal to YHVH and His physical incarnation (Jesus of Nazareth) will displace the current spiritual hierarchy in place today.

So, how can a Christian practice magic? As you will see in the bibliography of Jewish Magical Practices, it's not so much the methods used to make contact--it's whose on the other end.

In the old days, you had to pledge allegiance to a Mystery School and their Deity(s).

Now, just as Alchemy is divorced from Chemistry, thanks to Bardon, the Christian can maintain loyalty to the Creator, without pledging allegiance to any one else.

TO Summarize

--Gods original intention was to have a human and divine family--heaven and earth united (Eden)
--That got messed up
--Ever since then He has been slowly working to bring His original intention to pass
--The current spiritual hierarchy will be displaced by those loyal to the Creator God.

In one sentence: magic is fine, as long as the Christian doesn't work with spirits disloyal to God and "tests the spirits" to see if they are loyal to the Creator God or to the lesser gods and spirit beings. Also, the New Testament is FULL of adoption language. The Christian is adopted into YHVH's family--never becomes one with Him. They partake in the inheritance and are co-rulers. The key for the Christian is to remember that God is God and you are you and this will never change. You will be part of his family, but when you merge with The ALL, you are merging with the universe, not God Himself.

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/JewishMagicBibliography.pdf

Mods: if I can't post links, please repost this for me. It's an academic 131 page bibliography of Jewish magical practices from thousands of years ago until now. [Mod Note: Checked the contents of the link, and it's entirely legit and not a problem. Approved, even though member has fewer than the usual required number of posts, under the "with moderator approval" clause.]

While I don't agree with any of this, it is interesting to read, please continue posting and developing your ideas.


[QUOTE=eyeoneblack;127635]Ouch. The first statement totally misses the point. Nihilism rejects, philosophically, the meaning of opposing philosophical paradigms and does not speak to the awareness associated with Nirvana.

Hmmm, I misused the word, I should have said "materialism", which is more or less what I was thinking. I don't know bugger all about Nihilism. Except that in The Big Lebowski that German guy had a sword and seemed to liked leather a lot :wacky1:

[agapelove]

All right.

I had the day off today. I've literally been writing since about 11 or 12, it is now 9:15. I answered (to the best of my ability) the questions posed. The forum logged me out and didn't auto-save properly. It is my fault. I always back up what I write, and this time I got lazy.

I've literally been writing for 8+ hours and now, everything is gone. At this point, I'm just mad at myself. Next day off, I will re-write responses to your questions and also write a nice long post about the idea of Reversal in the Bible (it's pretty much what the whole thing's about.)

I'm going to let my rage cool off after just having wasted a full day, but let's look on the bright side: We'll say that what I wrote today was a rough draft and what I write next will be better.

Hanging my head in shame...

[John Sorensen]

All right.

I had the day off today. I've literally been writing since about 11 or 12, it is now 9:15. I answered (to the best of my ability) the questions posed. The forum logged me out and didn't auto-save properly. It is my fault. I always back up what I write, and this time I got lazy.

I've literally been writing for 8+ hours and now, everything is gone. At this point, I'm just mad at myself. Next day off, I will re-write responses to your questions and also write a nice long post about the idea of Reversal in the Bible (it's pretty much what the whole thing's about.)

I'm going to let my rage cool off after just having wasted a full day, but let's look on the bright side: We'll say that what I wrote today was a rough draft and what I write next will be better.

Hanging my head in shame...


Just write offline, save it, and then copy and paste into the forum.

[IA56]

All right.

I had the day off today. I've literally been writing since about 11 or 12, it is now 9:15. I answered (to the best of my ability) the questions posed. The forum logged me out and didn't auto-save properly. It is my fault. I always back up what I write, and this time I got lazy.

I've literally been writing for 8+ hours and now, everything is gone. At this point, I'm just mad at myself. Next day off, I will re-write responses to your questions and also write a nice long post about the idea of Reversal in the Bible (it's pretty much what the whole thing's about.)

I'm going to let my rage cool off after just having wasted a full day, but let's look on the bright side: We'll say that what I wrote today was a rough draft and what I write next will be better.

Hanging my head in shame...

Hi agapelove,
So sorry to hear your hard work did vanish into the syber, but I am so happy and proud of your self control...wow...thank you :-)

Love
ia

[CFTraveler]

All right.

I had the day off today. I've literally been writing since about 11 or 12, it is now 9:15. I answered (to the best of my ability) the questions posed. The forum logged me out and didn't auto-save properly. It is my fault. I always back up what I write, and this time I got lazy.

I've literally been writing for 8+ hours and now, everything is gone. At this point, I'm just mad at myself. Next day off, I will re-write responses to your questions and also write a nice long post about the idea of Reversal in the Bible (it's pretty much what the whole thing's about.)

I'm going to let my rage cool off after just having wasted a full day, but let's look on the bright side: We'll say that what I wrote today was a rough draft and what I write next will be better.

Hanging my head in shame... I notice this happened to a couple of people (I think) yesterday. There must have been something going on with the internet. However, this forum autosaves, so when that happens check before you start writing again in the left hand bottom corner for the legend 'restore autosaved content' before you start writing again. It's too late now, since it's written over, but keep it in mind (everyone).

[agapelove]

First, let me restate the purpose of this thread—and again thanks to CFT for her post which clarified what I'm doing here. I have 0% desire to disabuse of your beliefs, and 0% desire for you to disabuse me of mine.

This thread is for people who believe the following and who are not willing to budge:


You believe that the God of Israel is the only uncreated, ontologically unique and superior being.
2.) You believe that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the only physical incarnation of the God of Israel.
3.) You believe that there is something separating us from God and that in some way this was repaired, or at least began to be repaired, at the crucifixion and resurrection.
4.) You believe that Christ is the only way of "salvation" (it's in quotes because who really knows what that means? We'll discuss it later.)
5.) You believe in the literal death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.


IA56
In your responses, you bring up the idea of evolution. First, we need to distinguish between micro-evolution and macro-evolution.

Micro-evolution is, quote, “evolutionary change within a species or small group of organisms, esp. over a short period.”

Macro-evolution is, quote, “major evolutionary change. The term applies mainly to the evolution of whole taxonomic groups over long periods of time.”

In the Judeo-Christian paradigm there is no macro-evolution. And this isn’t just modern, evangelical, Christianity—you will search the Scriptures in vain for the idea. This isn’t just something Christians made up to fight late 19th and early 20th century academic Biblical skepticism.

Now look again at these comparisons, paying special attention to the ones in bold:

Judeo-Christian:
Dualism: God is separate from everything else (creation).

Occult and New Age:
Monism: God is not separate, everything is a part of God, (The ALL).

Judeo-Christian:
God has a family and He wants us in it. He wants us as sons and daughters.

Occult and New Age:
People and other beings aren’t part of God’s family, they are a part of Him.

Judeo-Christian:
People are transformed and become part of the Divine realm through the work of Christ.

Occult and New Age:
People are transformed and become part of the Divine realm through slow evolution and spiritual exercises.

This is the point: both Occultism/New Age and Judeo-Christian say we’re (as humans) ending up in the same place—the Divine Realm. The difference is how we get there, and who gets us there. The other difference is that Universal Redemption is NOT, NOT, NOT, a part of the Judeo-Christian paradigm. I can’t stress this enough.
The Bible VERY clearly says that we (as humans) are offered redemption whereas “they” are not.
That IS the difference. We don’t “evolve” to become like them. In fact, our deal is WAY better than theirs—we replace them and they are literally thrown out like a piece of garbage.

This is why you never see Christians getting info from “the other side.” This is also why, in the NT, these beings are always referred to negatively—the idea being that their goal is to disqualify us from being eligible to take their jobs.

Now you may ask, “Why are we offered redemption and they aren’t?” The answer is actually quite simple: they are in the direct presence of the Shekinah Glory, we are not. Now, this does bring us back to the Garden. We were in the direct presence of Yahweh-Elohim and still &^%# up. I have an answer, both coherent and cogent, which we’ll get into on another post.

In Occult and New Age philosophy, we slowly evolve to the status of Bene Elohim (Sons of God) where with Judeo-Christian, the work of Christ instantly transforms us. In Judeo-Christian theology and philosophy, it’s an “already, but not yet” type of thing. What I mean by this is, does anyone (any Christian) want to argue that Christ isn’t reigning? Read Hebrews.

To use a marriage analogy, we, as Christians, are “engaged” to Christ. The final consummation hasn’t happened yet, but that in no way detracts from the reality. Where we’re at right now, is waiting for the final consummation.

I need to again stress the fact that in Judeo-Christian theology and philosophy, there is no macro-evolution. There’s micro-evolution, but the result of macro-evolution propounded by Occult and New Age philosophy, is, in Scripture, accomplished by the Work of Christ. As Paul terms it, Christ was the first fruits, the earnest money, the preview so to speak. When He returns, the transformation will be in the “twinkling of an eye,” not the “evolution” espoused by Occultism.

John Sorensen (http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/member.php?17998-John-Sorensen)
You say, ”Awesome post, following the logic herein, how does an immortal being die?

Is this referring to a material being dying or a non-material being?

I ask, as either way energy "can not be destroyed", only transformed, as quantum physics demonstrates.

Also, what is the definition of the word "die" in your post as you choose to use it.

Does it mean:
*Transformation
*Non-existence
*Separation
*Unity
*Other?

Q.) How does an immortal being die?

A.) Mechanically, I’ve no idea—but this is what I think the key idea is: Only in the direct presence of Yahweh can one have unthreatened immortality. Adam and Eve, historical or not—according to the story, when did they actually die? The curse was pronounced in the Garden, but it took them around 1000 years to physically die (the point being that in order to live, they had to leave His direct presence—the flip side being that if they had stayed in His presence they would have died due to “Divine Exposure” after the whole Sin thing). My answer to your question would require familiarity with OT, Inter-testamental, NT, and Ugaritic literature (as well as pretty much all ANE literature). Basically, all of these sources say that the Gen. 6 beings are being held in Tartarus. This is an extremely unusual word in both the LXX and the NT.

This is what comes to my mind: Aleister Crowley says, or channeled, or whatever, “I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory… Be strong, o man! lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this.

23. I am alone: there is no God where I am

That’s what I'm thinking—that however “they” lose their immortality is linked to their proximity (not physical proximity) or lack thereof to God. I do need to again stress that whenever I use the word “God” I am referring to the God of Israel.
So to sum up the answer to the 1st question, Adam and Eve were immortal and they’re dead now (historical or not—it doesn’t really change the point of the story). Whatever happened that changed their status from “immortal” to “mortal” can happen to any being. I would say that the only being Who possesses immortality as an inherent trait is Yahweh. All other beings, from the Judeo-Christian point of view, if they are immortal, it’s a “contingent” immortality. The key is really to differentiate between inherent and contingent immortality.

Q.) Is this referring to a material being dying or a non-material being?

A.) Yes and no. Now is it perfectly clear? (Obviously I'm joking.) First of all, if we’re going to go with the premise that God (again Yahweh) is the only uncreated being, that means that everything (and everyone) else is made up of something. In other words, we need to define the word “material.”

When reading through Scripture, it would seem that when visiting Earth, the required “form of dress,” so to speak, is flesh. Probably the most familiar example is from Gen. 18. Two of the beings were “angels” and the third was the Pre-Incarnate Christ. They took on the appearance of flesh—they ate, did other physical things, etc. Flesh can do what flesh can do—whether naturally born into the world, or taking the form of flesh.

This is my personal theory—whenever the Eschaton comes, in some way these Cosmic Beings will be tricked into taking on flesh--and then will be vulnerable to death. If I knew how it worked mechanically and prophetically, these beings would too, and they’d figure a way around it.

Q.) I ask, as either way energy "cannot be destroyed", only transformed, as quantum physics demonstrates.

A.) I’ll repeat this in the next Q/A, but I don’t believe that any being ever ceases to exist. At the same time I reject as vehemently as possible anything even resembling macro-evolution. I believe that “everything produces after its own kind,” and when violating this principle, well, just look at Gen 6 and the non-canonical book of 1 Enoch. As I said earlier, I believe that the end result propounded by macro-evolution is accomplished instantly by the work of Christ—again, it’s not so much the end-result, but who and how we get there.

Q.) What is the definition of the word "die" in your post as you choose to use it?

A.) As far as actual mechanics go—I’ve no idea. However, I would go with the “separation” definition. To use an analogy, when people die, they lose something: their physical body. Whether you’re applying the term to mortals or immortals, it would seem to me that death is two-fold:

1.) Separation from God
2.) Separation from some part of yourself that you can’t properly function without in your natural realm. This means that once dead, people are no longer able to function in the manner or capacity that God (Yahweh) created us to function. I would draw this analogy to the "immortal," Cosmic, ruling Beings.

That’s all for now…

[IA56]

Hi agapelove,
I absolutely hope you will stay and keep going with your thought´s and I hope you do not take offence in my thought´s because my intention is not to argue about right or wrong...but...have an opportunity to freely express my feeling´s what I put in word´s and sometime I call it thought´s when it is an image I try to express in word´s...all are my way and it is not read from any book´s...I can tell that I am very surprised when I notice and find what come´s to me is already written...so nothing new under the sun :-)

The strong feeling I got from my meeting with JHWH or Jehowa...I wouldn´t be able to know the difference between the infinit and duality without this experience...I do not know anything about evolution or devolution...more that what I got to feel in front of the JHWH...and I have tried to express it here many time´s and fail every time...
The strongest feeling I have is that religions as they are expressed here on Earth is twisted and are not at all helping to open up ...because LOVE does make you free...not fear as I have noticed religious persons....and as I read one of Leo Buscaglia´s quotes...that the opposit of love is not hate - it´s apathy, it´s not to giving a damn...
So for me hate is not that bad as apathy...because hate is also a strong emotion...but apathy is total not feeling a thing...and not caring about anything.
I Think that we have a huge job to remake our stiffen and hardened prejudices and out grown thought systems, as they do not work.

Love
ia