Last request for advice and then I will leave everyone alone

[agapelove]

If you couldn't tell from my other posts, I am a Bible thumping Christian and I also believe that some, or perhaps most, mystical and occult practices are ok, perhaps even beneficial.

Here is my problem:

On Christian forums, no one will even enter into a discussion about the occult, except to condemn it--and they generally provide little to no logic for their conclusions.

On the other hand, on occult forums no one will answer these questions from the perspective that the Bible is literally true and that it is the only true message from God to man.

Are these two things really that mutually exclusive? The more I look into these issues, the more ambiguous everything seems. I really don't care what anyone believes, what I'm looking for is sound, logical argument and debate--the kind of thing that could stand up in an academic, peer-reviewed journal. (I said I wasn't arguing for or against Christianity or trying to win converts in another post, and I meant it.)

So, this is the advice I'm looking for, and these questions are at the heart of what I have been asking about, both here and on other forums--and I have yet to find a cogent, logical, convincing, and persuasive argument, sola scriptura, by scripture alone, that lands on any side of the following questions, so:

Does anyone know of any websites, books, articles, authors, forums, etc. that would answer the following:

1.) Can one practice mysticism and the occult without violating any Biblical mandates (of specific concern here are mandates in the canonical Pauline Epistles.) The Bible, when read literally, clearly prohibits some aspects of the occult, yet seems fine with others. For instance, in Acts, Peter and Paul both enter into trances and receive messages from God.

What I'm really looking for is Why the prohibition? For instance, was King Saul's sin, in and of itself, that he went to the medium, or was his sin the reasoning and desires that led him to using the medium? His reason being that God had stopped communicating with him and instead of respecting this, he went to someone other than God.

2.) Where is the line between science and magic. Examples: Hypnotism, science or magic? Meditation: Eastern Occultism or scientific stress relief? How can we (we fundamentalist Christians) condemn practices like alchemy and astrology when they led directly to modern science? Another: Refusing to believe that occultists could be right about anything because we disagree with some of their theology is like refusing to go to a medical Dr. because he believes in evolution and we don't.

3.) Compare and contrast Crowley's Law and Rom 14. They seem very similar, at least on the surface. What is the difference? Is there a difference between Crowley's definition of "love" and Paul's definition of "love?" There must be a difference that I'm missing because Paul and Crowley were very different people with very different outlooks and beliefs.

Thank you for your help and your patience.

[IA56]

Hi agapelove,

God know you better than you know yourself, why do you not dare to feel free in your heart and listen the voice from inside what it tells you?? Why not let the message sink into your heart and let it guide you. The thing is for you to become yourself and find how and whom you are going to listen, and in my world the most importent thing is to learn to listen to yourself so you can take responsibillity and stop saying, but he told me so, or she told me this...in the end it is your own choices what counts, make them and take responsibillity for them.
I have listen to many and I have found myself in very hard and impossible situations in life, but I have always known that it has always bean my choice to listen to whom ever I listened to, and I have noticed that there is no comdemtion in ignorance, and how do you get knowledge if you not dare to make your choices and look where it leads.
All desiples in Bible was only man, with faults and judgements, God/Jesus did choose them for a reason, try to look through what that reason was, and not only read blindly the word´s....for instance Paul was still the old school, pusching down women, he said, that women should not speak in public or something like this, so how right is this in your world?? Jesus did show how to respect and how to let women be as free as men.

So, why do you not dare to make your own choice about these questions you have?? What are you afraid, to get real knowledge and not to know how to handle the knowing, or you just want to blame others??

I do not understand why you choose Alister Crowley to refer too from the occutist range?? He in my oppinion is sick.

Love
ia

[ButterflyWoman]

Here's my perspective, which is kinda meta. Take it for what it's worth.

There is no need to convince other people that your interpretation is correct. I understand that this is pretty much classic fundamentalist thinking, this "right vs wrong" (orthodox vs heterodox or even heresy), but, bottom line, people will believe and do what they feel they need/want to believe and do, and there is next to nothing you can do to change it. If YOU are comfortable with YOUR interpretations, and YOUR experiences support your conclusions, well, live your life that way, and stop worrying so much about how other people live theirs. You don't have to convince anyone else that you're right, or that it's okay. You don't need their permission.

Ultimately, your life and how you live it is between YOU and GOD, and nobody else. Spending your energy on trying to change other people's opinions has very little fruit for the effort involved, and even if you can change a mind here or there, in the long run, it won't matter. You are in charge of your life, of your actions, of your relationship with your God. Nobody else needs to be involved. Indeed, nobody else CAN be involved, no matter how much they insist they need to be there to tell you what to do and how to do it and how to interpret things.

I've been studying the Bible from a wide range of perspectives for decades, by the way (still do; currently reading a book on the very early Christian church and its factions). I've spent a lot of time in my life arguing with people about various interpretations of this verse or that passage. It never gained me anything, however, and now I regret the waste of time and energy that I put into proving this or that "right" and this or that other thing "wrong". I get where you're coming from, I really do. I, however, am relieved to have left that kind of worldview behind. I don't argue with dogma-bound Christians these days, and it is a blessing to have released the need and the desire to do that.

I do wish you well, and I hope you find peace within yourself and with reconciling the various divergent aspects of your path. I do urge you to consider, however, that your path is unique, and that you may never be able to convince anyone else of its validity. That doesn't make it invalid; it just means you're on a unique path (something else I know rather a lot about; it's lonely and frustrating, but very fruitful). Blessings to you on your journey.

[BDeye]

I have a few christian fundamentalists in my family and we gave up a long time ago trying to explain our interpretive views to each other. Since then we get along great, we love each other, so nothing else really matters. Trying to change someones view is not going to make my walk along this path any easier. If you're looking at yourself as part of a group and the groups actions or laws go against the grain, maybe the problem isn't with the group but rather that the group isn't right for you at this time. If they're happy seeing the world a certain way, then that is the right place for them and what they need along the road.

I decided a long time ago that I didn't want to be lead along this strange road but rather find my own way. It certainly isn't easy, you feel lost, turned around and have to backtrack sometimes, but I still don't have a destination, so being lost doesn't matter, I just enjoy the stroll as much as I can.

Now none of what I said matters, the difficulty in reconciling these matters lies with you, not them. They stand firm in their beliefs and who am I or you to say that's wrong. If you are unable to find the solution to these questions you're looking for, try changing the format you're using to solve the problem. Letting go of things is always harder than hanging on to something, even when the thing you're clinging to is causing you pain.

I haven't answered your question, because I can't. Maybe you can and then share your answers with me, I always enjoy hearing a new point of view.

[Frater.Akenu]

Try to ask some Martinist order, these usually have the best Magick/Christianity connection.

[CFTraveler]

If you couldn't tell from my other posts, I am a Bible thumping Christian and I also believe that some, or perhaps most, mystical and occult practices are ok, perhaps even beneficial. You don't have to leave, there's nothing wrong with being a bible-thumping Christian, I have done some thumping in my time, I am just trying to avoid the inevitable flamewars that usually happen in diverse forums when it comes to religion. But we can try and see how this post develops.


Here is my problem:

On Christian forums, no one will even enter into a discussion about the occult, except to condemn it--and they generally provide little to no logic for their conclusions.
That's because when they have been taught it's "wrong" (and this depends on the branch of Christianity) there has been no explanation, or the explanation has to do with what that branch believes. No logic is necessary. Because the Pope/Minister/Bible quote said so is sufficient. Later on, the few that question, will get whatever the branch belief is, regardless of whether it makes sense to them.


On the other hand, on occult forums no one will answer these questions from the perspective that the Bible is literally true and that it is the only true message from God to man.

That's because a great majority of people that hang out in occult forums do not believe this about the bible. So how can they? It would be hypocritical. The closest you can come to 'belief in the Bible' in an occult forum (or metaphysical forum) is that the Bible is a symbol of God, and transmitted to humans in a symbolic way, because that's how our minds work. That is the basis of all metaphysics, so being on a metaphysically themed forum will give you some form of that kind of thought process or belief system.

Are these two things really that mutually exclusive? The more I look into these issues, the more ambiguous everything seems. I really don't care what anyone believes, what I'm looking for is sound, logical argument and debate--the kind of thing that could stand up in an academic, peer-reviewed journal. (I said I wasn't arguing for or against Christianity or trying to win converts in another post, and I meant it.) Sorry, when I read "this or that is wrong", it's the message I got. My bad. But here is what you should know about these types of forums:
Metaphysics (in the philosophical sense) is the study of that which is beyond the physical (obvious) but what is missed is that one of the very basic tenets of metaphysics is that what is beyond the physical is what creates the physical. I don't mean this from a 'magical' sense (but it could be) but from the sense that spirit creates the physical, so studying the spiritual is the best way to understand the physical.
Symbolism is how we can understand spirit, and it's how most metaphysically minded folks see the world- a big old symbol of something more subtle- hence the kinds of healing you see, and the reason prayer exists (talking to the spiritual side when the material bewilders us)- but this also extends to everything else, including the Bible. Most mystics see the bible as a resource that is to be read in at least three ways: Literally (that is, looking at historic events and getting a lesson from them), as learning events (that is, see what the lesson is in a particular story) and see how the symbolism describes the story of the world and what we're here for- not literally, but symbolically. Like the story of adam and eve, not being only the story that it seems to be, but the story that shows the maturity of a human being and the stages it goes through, for example. Every story has a deeper meaning.
Most metaphysically minded do not accept the premises you have stated (that it is literal, and that it is the 'only' word of God. It just goes against our grain, so to speak.
So it stands to reason that you are going to get very little discourse from people that hang out in 'occult' forums on that basis. There may be one or two that I can think of, but most mystics just don't see the world that way.




Does anyone know of any websites, books, articles, authors, forums, etc. that would answer the following:

1.) Can one practice mysticism and the occult without violating any Biblical mandates (of specific concern here are mandates in the canonical Pauline Epistles.) The Bible, when read literally, clearly prohibits some aspects of the occult, yet seems fine with others. For instance, in Acts, Peter and Paul both enter into trances and receive messages from God. I know of a person who does have some firm opinions about that, I'll see if I can find him and point you to him. He is ultra conservative and advocates astral projection- but not anything else.


What I'm really looking for is Why the prohibition? For instance, was King Saul's sin, in and of itself, that he went to the medium, or was his sin the reasoning and desires that led him to using the medium? His reason being that God had stopped communicating with him and instead of respecting this, he went to someone other than God. I know you and I will probably disagree with this, but I think the prohibition is a case of not looking at the case deep enough. It's not that he went to a medium, but that his view of God was so limited that it didn't occur to him that going to a medium was 'one' possible way of talking with God. He thought the medium was 'instead of' God, and that's where he screwed up.


2.) Where is the line between science and magic. Examples: Hypnotism, science or magic? Meditation: Eastern Occultism or scientific stress relief? How can we (we fundamentalist Christians) condemn practices like alchemy and astrology when they led directly to modern science? Another: Refusing to believe that occultists could be right about anything because we disagree with some of their theology is like refusing to go to a medical Dr. because he believes in evolution and we don't. Here a little history will help- there was a time when wearing glasses would have got you in trouble. Because the belief in the literality of the Bible, there are a lot of prohibitions that some sects take more seriously than others, that's why, for example, a Christian Science person will not go to a doctor, or a Jehovah's Witness will refuse a transfusion. Many people taking parts of the Bible so literally that it is impossible for them to accept something that is so simple and harmless for others. So it doesn't surprise me that some conservative christians will refuse any type of direct use (occultism) just in case they do the wrong thing. I won't get into the politics of the thing because it's too inflammatory.


3.) Compare and contrast Crowley's Law and Rom 14. They seem very similar, at least on the surface. What is the difference? Is there a difference between Crowley's definition of "love" and Paul's definition of "love?" There must be a difference that I'm missing because Paul and Crowley were very different people with very different outlooks and beliefs. Paul is featured in the Bible and Crowley isn't, and that's enough for some. Once again, literalism is what drives a lot of this sentiment.


Thank you for your help and your patience. FWIW.

[eyeoneblack]

There is a two volume set of books (out of print now but you can find them on eBay) by H.P. Blavatsky. One is on Science and the other Theology. The books title is Isis Unveiled.

I've mentioned them before but I don't believe anyone here has read them. Be sure the publisher is The Theosophical Society. They are dense and eloquently written, but I think they'll answer all your questions.

[CFTraveler]

I read about half of Isis Unveiled. Someday I'll finish it. The density really bored me, but no one else seems to share this view.

[Sinera]

I wrote a metal song and use a longer quote of her from this work in the lyrics, but I only skimmed this work and did not read it all (another one howerver which was very good: The Key To Theosophy, so if IU bores you, you might try that one, it's okay and not too boring at all).

Maybe I will publish the song one day (put a link here) but it isn't ready yet. I've been working on it for years now, every now and then, I'm a lazy producer :oops:.

[ButterflyWoman]

This came into my reality today, and I felt like sharing it. Seems appropriate (at least it does to me).

598

[GMAN12]

It is definitely relevant.

[agapelove]

Thank you everyone! Sorry I ruffled some feathers at first. Your replies have been most helpful.

[Tutor]

ruffle them feathers! if they can be ruffled. and try not and leave us alone.

mysticism = agape redeems eros...rose...oser...sero...eros...where in the leap is s @ z...eroz...roze...ozer...zero.

oser: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oser

and ozer: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/auser#Middle_French

to dare to BE...to be YOU!

Y
O
U

sero: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sero

zero is of course zero...forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ. also zero refers to the root of any word (syllable), to the beginning Logos, letting go logic, as rhyme before reason. un-spoofable Poe-t, as W. Shakespear refers to the One Poet in his Sonnets - recommended reading for a "mystic".

ts-ade...tz-adi, recognition of the Cross (Tav) ya see.

one may not reap if there has not been sowing. Matthew 20 apparently Jesus reveals workers brought into the field/s to reap what they had not sown. yet in another parable He speaks of what their fathers had sown toward their inheritance. tis mystical in deeds toward a deed called YOU.

so yeah, tis relevant...

[SiriusTraveler]

ruffle them feathers! if they can be ruffled. and try not and leave us alone.

mysticism = agape redeems eros...rose...oser...sero...eros...where in the leap is s @ z...eroz...roze...ozer...zero.

oser: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oser

and ozer: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/auser#Middle_French

to dare to BE...to be YOU!

Y
O
U

sero: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sero

zero is of course zero...forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ. also zero refers to the root of any word (syllable), to the beginning Logos, letting go logic, as rhyme before reason. un-spoofable Poe-t, as W. Shakespear refers to the One Poet in his Sonnets - recommended reading for a "mystic".

ts-ade...tz-adi, recognition of the Cross (Tav) ya see.

one may not reap if there has not been sowing. Matthew 20 apparently Jesus reveals workers brought into the field/s to reap what they had not sown. yet in another parable He speaks of what their fathers had sown toward their inheritance. tis mystical in deeds toward a deed called YOU.

so yeah, tis relevant...

I don't understand this at all.

[IA56]

I don't understand this at all.

Hi SiriusTraveler,
I will give you how I feel about Tim´s post, but off course Tim has to give his explanations to his post.

I feel that Tim is giving a deep explanation to agapelove´s avatar, that agapelove is to dare to be him self...the you/I..
Agape is the very deep LOVE.
The inheretance he is talking about in my understanding is that because we are all ONE I am also all my family, parents and the inheratance is to heal my parents faults too because we are ONE, so I am also my parents so to speak and I will give a healing to them by forgive and live out the hurt they felt in life but did not be able to heal when living, I can help to heal them too because I am them...we all are ONE.

Love
ia

[SiriusTraveler]

Hmm makes more sence when explained properly. I guess I just had a hard time interpreting it in the first place.

[ButterflyWoman]

Just a general observation that Tim's posts are often difficult to take in and difficult to parse. It's just the way his mystical mind works, drawing connections in unusual ways, using words in poetic and unusual ways, and so on. It's just his style. :)

[IA56]

Just a general observation that Tim's posts are often difficult to take in and difficult to parse. It's just the way his mystical mind works, drawing connections in unusual ways, using words in poetic and unusual ways, and so on. It's just his style. :)

Yes, mostly I do understand Tim´s way to think, but not always, I am still waiting his aswere to what I did not understand in my dream diary, but he has not answered yet, I am waiting...:-)

Love
ia

[eyeoneblack]

Ha! I've thought before someone should write a Tutorial on Tutor. Often his thoughts, to me, are like a word cloud. Or maybe something very sensible put in the blender and served with a sprig of mint. Just kidding, of course.

[CFTraveler]

Take a gander at his 'laying on the bones' thread and you may get a clue.

[Tutor]

LOL!

Good Feeling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNGPqsJR5D8

...god sip with a sprig of mint...

Tutorial on Tutor: last week purchased me a 2007 Harley Davidson SoftTail Deuce, 96 cubic inches, 1584 cc's of chromed out thunder. Got the shakes real bad when I first rode it about 50 feet, but rode it yesterday with a bit more regained confidence about two miles. Been 16 years since I rode a Harley, 14 years since I had one, as it sat parked in my dining room for the last two years, because my nerves were shot all to hell and back. Finally had to sell it at a great loss compared to what I had in it, because of the foreclosure notice on our house, which was the unfortunate outcome of my ex-wife's life-choice to pursue her secret meth-makeover and the subsequent leaving of her husband and son in 2004 for a drug dealer whom she married on the same day our divorce was final. Held my neighbor's newborn baby boy yesterday (he cried), and today we are invited to the birthday party of another neighbor's one year old daughter. While mowing the grass yesterday, the six year old boy across the street hollered at me, "Tim, look at me!". He finally was riding his bicycle without training wheels and he wanted me to see him. also yesterday, a neighbor's 8-9 year old nephew that lives with her (product of recent divorce), came down and thanked us twice for the two boxes of Star War toys that came out of the garage to make room for my Harley. He had indicated to me a year ago that he was into reading the Star War's books, which I thought to be mighty impressive for his age. Best thing was his smile as he's been mighty sad lately. My neighbor, his aunt, says he went through them toys like they were treasure and played that first night, he and his older sister, till midnight, then fell asleep with the 12 inch Luke Skywalker figure in his hands.

JOY! is by spreading joy. (Abigail - name meaning?)

god sipping is slaying the "idea" (or perhaps having had an "idea" slayed), and putting into practice such as is this: Love thy neighbor as thyself

Give it away NOW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exCEcmLw-Hc

Unimaginable Life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1SncPp0v2U

Sitting on a park bench Monday, smoking a cigarette, with no one visibly there, a young women clearly spoke to me saying, "I see you", which I replyed saying, "I hear you".

but understand this, Joy comes at a cost, in that Jesus is no liar, and there will come daily attacks (within and/or without) on them that would dare, despite the world's silencing way, attempt to expressively practice beyond the "idea".

to such as would attack I say, "you are not real, for I am what is real that you'd come to remind ME. Thank you for the reminder, NOW in Jesus' name go away."

Of seven moments; The Fourth Moment: Nowhere or Now-Here [The Flights of Icarus - Donald Lehmkuhl]

Home is where the heart is....

Oh dang CFT, imma have to go over to the bone's thread and read it again trying to get a clue....

Tim

[ButterflyWoman]

last week purchased me a 2007 Harley Davidson SoftTail Deuce, 96 cubic inches, 1584 cc's of chromed out thunder.
SQUEE!!!! Take me for a ride? I LOVE motorcycles (and I used to date and hang out with bikers a lot back in the day ;)).


JOY! is by spreading joy. (Abigail - name meaning?)
Father's joy, or father rejoiced.


Oh dang CFT, imma have to go over to the bone's thread and read it again trying to get a clue....
:D That gave me a real, down deep chuckle. I wish there was a thread somewhere that would help me get a clue... :) I wish you luck with your cluesearch, my friend.

[Tutor]

it may be best if we remain clueless...LOL! but i reckon we can search for dem dare clues.

[ButterflyWoman]

Ah, the farther one travels, the less one knows. The less one really knows.... (So sang George Harrison, my favourite Beatle, paraphrasing the Vedic texts.)

[Tutor]

yeah. if we identify that what we know arrives through others or other than the self, then we may look at the accumulated personality or person to realize why God is no respector of persons, and Jesus/The Son mediates between the person and the Father.

Understanding/Buddha, where Buddha means Understanding, is what we got, without the need to keep any "knowing", for these obstruct toward further understanding.

Thinking is a tool for arriving at. therefore, thinking is like a machine of mechanisms, mechanisms which run the gamut of right and wrong, good and bad...etc. thinking should be allowed by the thinker to run free, without concern for dualistic propertys. this because, one can not understand the wrong or the bad if the right and good are only considered.

human honesty, or anyone within their own thoughts, cannot deny that surely they've thought some mighty bad/wrong thoughts. yet, such as is denial arrives within as if to erect walls to keep out such "enemys" as ill thoughts.

now, any perversion of what is humanly natural is eruptive within when one applys guilt as the bricks and shame as the mortar for such as these walls. for out from within these walls will spill that which cannot be but a perversion of what is truly human.

to imagine, thus to think, within the dualistic paradigm, cannot but yield dualistic knowns within the entirety of what seems as unknown, this unknown only in that it is misunderstood as being purely human, in the image of the Image.

certainly one cannot condone improper behaviors of thought that would pointedly emerge actively among others. yet in our shared world we see just that, and most ask why is this so. the answer is ever in that which we all collectively deny about ourselves as the humans together being.

i like what Richard said over in another thread about his daughter after such time as a spanking had approached to himself as the father commiting violence upon her, and that henceforth the world would be her point of contact wherefrom such would come to her. wisely said...

damn near have to write a world of words just to peg it down, but to make it short and sweet, we be human, and there is no greater force under God than what is Human created of God.

This is my mutating quote, because it changes since i first scratched it down some months back:

"What I think matters very little; what I know amounts to nothing; what I may understand begins where these two meet".

this is like, where all above V's into where Yesod is, therefrom vertically descending or ascending, given one's perspectivity, to earth/malkut. Y

[edit: hell is paths that lead nowhere; or now here, as it is, arriving, heaven on earth, with no wanted "baggage claim" from needful "things".]

upon arriving, understanding, there is nought but Earth and Sky, or Mother and Father, and We as a whole lot of Me's, the Children of, earthlings. beyond THAT, there is no that or there or where or etc.; except imaginatively just as we'd see it as our givens dualistic as provision would declare it so in the naming from very Us. culturally we cannot deny this, as within each and every language that has ever been surely has named the moon, the sun, the earth, the sky, ad infinitum.

Human is the what, when, where, why, who, which and how....PERIOD.

CFT's quote in her signature about pretending that life is a dress rehearsal, is right on target, and everybit what it means for any human to be missing the mark.

we've all come a far piece, without peace; to far to have come that we NOW continue to pretend...

it's like when we are waiting for a webpage to become fully resolved, and all the tagged on crap has settled, and we might begin to look at or read the darn webpage, if indeed we are not insensed to immediately close the page because it kept us prisoner for dragging minutes of impatience. because we couldnt get free of it, the rotating arrow fronted circling had us kept while everything but "what" we'd wished to see or hear was the last priority of the page's resolve.

same thing is what it is to suddenly realize within one's true self, such that understanding is come as NOW. and from THAT moment is the choice, to close the page or to look/see or hear that which we'd come a far piece for. it aint pretty, but it damn sure is beautiful. beutiful in that, the finality of "choices" has come in this arrival of the one choice.

"To be or not to be, THAT is the question". W.S.

does one end the pretense of being, thus having realized that they are everybit being. and from that excommunication from knowing or the craving to know, does one enter into Being just as they are in the present moment, NOW fully resolved, and all the crap that had taken priority clearly seen as "much ado about nothing" W.S..

perhaps it is THAT simple...for Christ's sake, for through others and other are we each known that we might from being known then reflectively steer a course of action toward further resolution of that tiny little picture that when maginified is causal to chaos, yet when allowed to just be is of the greatest order which God could create toward the all inclusive image Human in the all encompassing Image of God.

each in every of ONE,

Get Lucky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7sSWsOjNlk


Tim

[Aunt Clair]

I am late to this thread but want to add Christ is the Magnum Magus the greatest magickian. He healed the sick , raised the dead, was resurrected from the grave.
Christ saw visions, had prophecies, spoke to God directly, worked with angels , interpreted dreams. In Gnostic apocrypha such as the Gospel of Judas and the Pistis Sophia of Christ; Jesus teaches to project out of the body as angels and he appears on the street in the form of a child. He projects to a heavenly realm and returns and projects to the future , also. The Bible is filled with magick . If used to heal, to learn , to see, to fly this is not ill , this is not evil. It is only when magick is used to harm that it is evil.


The three magi were magickians. King Solomon was a magickian. Magick is integral to the Bible. The Bible is written by many authors, as you know from being a thumper. And these authors have varying degrees of Divine Inspiration and write in conflict with each other.

The Catholic church teaches that it is a blessing to see one's deceased grandmother in a dream but it is risky to evoke spirits and that is frowned upon and warned against. The interpretation of dreams is rife through the OT and the NT this is something most Christians would not take exception to. The visiting of spirits and angels is also present. How then shall we see them and hear them if we do not learn to do so?
Matthew 13:15-16
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.

But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

We were created to become in the image of the Elohim, it is our reason for being. One place to find your answer is in the Bible itself. There are passages of the Bible that invite the human to become the magickian. Ecclesiastes has been called the Biblical Emerald Tablet as have other verses which promote becoming closer to God through meditation, prayer and visions.

http://forums.riverofenlightenment.com/index.php/topic,1892.0.html
http://forums.riverofenlightenment.com/index.php/topic,310.0.html