Is Rawn's TMO blasphemy and can a Christian practice Hermetics?

[agapelove]

I am a 28 year old male and was raised in a very fundamentalist Christian home by very strict but loving parents. I feel especially drawn to Hermetics and yearn to be closer to God through the Hermetic exercises, but I am also a devout Christian.

Rawn says in regard to Hermetics and religion, "In and of itself, it holds no religious doctrine yet is amenable to almost any." There are a few things I'm trying to get clear in my own mind and I would love to have your always helpful thoughts to help me better understand some of these things.

TMO seems, on the outside, to be blasphemy. In the Christian world view, only one man, Jesus of Nazareth, could say, "I am IHVH-ADNI, master of all the ages, this is truth!" To quote Colossians 2:9, "For in him [Christ] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily."

Another passage, also from Colossians 2, brings up a few more questions about Hermetic practices and remaining faithful to Christ. Here's the quote:

"See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy...according to human tradition, according to the [I]elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him [Christ] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority...Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and false humility...intruding into those things which are not seen...taking his stand on visions he has seen...which fill them with foolish pride."

On the outside, this seems to be specifically prohibiting working with the spirits as in the later stages of IIH and in PME.
Also, "intruding into those things which are not seen...taking his stand on visions he has seen...which fill them with foolish pride," seems as though it may reference Step VIII and IX astral and mental wandering, as well as the Step VII astral exercises.

I know I must be missing something, that I lack understanding--hopefully you can shed some light and bring this all together.

Thank you for your help

[GMAN12]

Of course! Anyone can practice hermetics because after all it is universal and isn't a religion. Jesus was a mystic, yet he also said we could accomplish the same miracles. You should talk to Aunt Clair. She met Jesus a couple of times as well as other beings which share a close rank to him as well. Things that will take you away from accomplishing your goals is thinking that impossible really means impossible. Of course it has to be a word because it would be "impossible" if it weren't. I was scared at first because I was so much into my religion, but it doesn't take hold of me strongly like before and my fears are washing away. Of course religion also leads to God, but personal realization takes it up another 1,000,000 fold.

[GMAN12]

Also it is not blasphemy

[CFTraveler]

Let me give you my insight: It has been said that Jesus didn't say I am God, he said God is God. This is because the word for God he used was "I am"- the Tetragrammaton. So he wasn't proclaiming himself 'God', he was saying "Being" is God. This is why the gnostic gospels (and parts of the accepted bible) say that God is inside and outside of you.
As to blasphemy, you have to consider what the word means. The hermetics (the original hermetics, not every one that practices hermetics) saw their calling as following in Jesus' footsteps- which is what he wanted us to do- follow him and learn from him.
Or at least that's what I think.

[agapelove]

GMAN--could you please explain why saying, "I am Lord God master of all the ages, this is truth," isn't blasphemous? The Hebrew transliteration is "Ani - Yod Heh Vav Heh Adonai - Ribbono Shel Olam - Amen." I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it. The Bible seems pretty adamant that claiming to be God is blasphemy, in fact that is the reason they crucified Christ.

GMAN--also, your first reply didn't quite answer the question for me. If you re-read my post I quote some scripture. What I'm really asking is whether or not someone can practice Hermetics without violating principles laid down in the New Testament, especially the Pauline epistles.

CFT--I do believe Jesus claimed to be uniquely God in the flesh (although this argument has been going on for millennia, so I don't think we'll come to a final determination here, and I don't want to start a war or anything). An example of this is in Matthew 26:

"And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?”
They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”

Jesus is referencing Daniel 7, He is claiming to be God, to be the cloud rider in that passage. The reason they killed Christ was because He claimed to be God. He was executed for blasphemy. When He tells Caiaphas that He is the cloud rider, Caiaphas knew exactly what Christ was saying--that He was God. Caiaphas then tore his clothes and needed no further evidence.

Either Jesus was lying, crazy, or God.

[GMAN12]

Jesus foretold it himself that he was going to die before that. It was meant to happen. Still you do not know the meaning of "I Am" as CFT told you. I still don't think the bible is perfectly translated nor does it really teach anything. It is like a textbook of history and a set of rules. Why follow them? We have free will. Of course, it is all your decision if you want to do it anyways. Programming of how you were brought up will be the only thing stopping you.

[SoulSail]

Either Jesus was lying, crazy, or God.

Hi agapelove,

We haven't been introduced yet so please pardon me jumping the gun a bit.

I want to point out that your quote, a quote commonly handed around in Christian circles, and widely popularized by C.S. Lewis, does not, in fact, close out all alternatives. I encourage you to take a close look and you may find that other options abound.

With that said, I want to be cognizant of house rules and others here and at least attempt to avoid a divisive debate on the merits of Jesus and His Church. I have all respect for who we was/is and His family. My comment isn't an invitation to debate, only a suggestion to ponder other options.

Regards,

Soul

[CFTraveler]

Ditto on that. Agapelove, if you indeed wanted some thoughts on whether practices are blasphemous or not, we have shared ours- however, we're not here to defend them or to argue over our interpretation (or yours) on them. So if this thread devolves on whether we should continue to practice or not or some kind of religious indictment on them, then I will lock this thread and it will be the end of it.

[IA56]

GMAN--could you please explain why saying, "I am Lord God master of all the ages, this is truth," isn't blasphemous? The Hebrew transliteration is "Ani - Yod Heh Vav Heh Adonai - Ribbono Shel Olam - Amen." I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it. The Bible seems pretty adamant that claiming to be God is blasphemy, in fact that is the reason they crucified Christ.

GMAN--also, your first reply didn't quite answer the question for me. If you re-read my post I quote some scripture. What I'm really asking is whether or not someone can practice Hermetics without violating principles laid down in the New Testament, especially the Pauline epistles.

CFT--I do believe Jesus claimed to be uniquely God in the flesh (although this argument has been going on for millennia, so I don't think we'll come to a final determination here, and I don't want to start a war or anything). An example of this is in Matthew 26:

"And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?”
They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”

Jesus is referencing Daniel 7, He is claiming to be God, to be the cloud rider in that passage. The reason they killed Christ was because He claimed to be God. He was executed for blasphemy. When He tells Caiaphas that He is the cloud rider, Caiaphas knew exactly what Christ was saying--that He was God. Caiaphas then tore his clothes and needed no further evidence.

Either Jesus was lying, crazy, or God.

My take on this is....Jesus did come as a teacher/healer...but how to say this to be understood in right way, so who is the blasphemyst if not those who reacted in wrong way, who did not be able to let Jesus speak up, but killed him to show their power and was afraid to loose power, and did not at all hear or understand what Jesus said....to learn to know your self is to see how you react to other´s it is a good pointer to know what you have to work on in yourself....

And still we are arguing over his word´s and how to interpret them....incredible!!

Love
ia

[agapelove]

First of all, my apologies to everyone--this thread got off track fast. Let me outline what I'm not trying to do, and then re-frame the original question.

1.) I am not trying to convert anyone to Christianity--in fact, it's quite the opposite.
2.) I am not trying to argue the merits or veracity Christianity--traditional or otherwise--in this post.

What I'm asking relates to my other post about the Greek words used for magic in the New Testament.

Basically, I want to know how someone who:

1.) Takes the Bible at face value and believes that the Bible, in its original autographs, is the inspired and inerrant Word of God.
2.) Who believes that our current Bible is the complete canon, that books like Enoch etc. are not inspired and were not deliberately left out as some sort of conspiracy.
3.) Who believes that what separates man from God is personal sin.
5.) Who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is both unique and the only time that God has been manifested in the flesh.
6.) Who believes in the literal, physical death, burial, and bodily resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.
7.) Who believes that Jesus has reconciled believers to Himself through His finished work on the cross.
8.) Who believes that we are all "...dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202&version=ESV#fen-ESV-29216a)] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202&version=ESV#fen-ESV-29216b)] 4 But[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202&version=ESV#fen-ESV-29217c)] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

My question is how does someone with this belief system work magic into their worldview?

An example:

The Bible, when taken at face value, clearly prohibits things like contacting the dead. So, since the Bible doesn't specifically prohibit astral projection, then it's fine as long as you don't use it to contact the dead.

Is that logic sound or faulty?

Another example:

The Bible prohibits charms and talismans. Is this prohibition against superstition or against magic proper?

In other words, is it saying, "Don't put your faith in it because it's just a piece of wood or stone or a four-leaf clover."

OR

Is it saying that the using the energies required to make an effective talisman is inherently wrong/evil/sinful etc...

I'm looking for someone who can take the point of view of a fundamentalist Christian or a 1st century Christian and "lawyer" in magical practices without redefining the plain text meaning of Judeo-Christian scripture.

So to summarize, this post is not about defending or rejecting Christianity; the question is:

How does someone who believes in Christianity practice magic without redefining the plain text meaning.

[agapelove]

Also, if TMO is not blasphemy, then what is?

How would you define "blasphemy?"

[CFTraveler]

Since this became a discussion of religion (or against it) I am locking this thread. Please read the rules regarding religions in this forum.