Forced to Kill

[GMAN12]

If I were forced to kill someone who is harming me or my family or if I had to go to war, would that be on me? This is a very important question as I would feel better to know because although I don't want my vibration to go down, I also don't want to die early in my life.

[BDeye]

This is a very difficult question to answer. I have had several of the woman in my life attacked by men with the means and the intent to kill. If I had of been there, I would have retaliated on instinct. Would I have used lethal force, if necessary.

I think the best way to avoid dying early in life though, is to avoid situation where death has high probability and also avoid putting myself in situation where I have to kill (war). Still sometimes it can land up on your doorstep. You have to then decide whether the situation warrants lethal force. I can say that I don't care less, if it comes to the safety of my soul or the promise lowering a my spiritual attitude, when it comes to protecting the life of my loved ones or an innocent that doesn't have the ability to keep themselves from harm.

I loathe violence and want to live a life in peace so I cultivate that sort of a surrounding, but when the zombie-alien army attacks, I would have to fight back.:thumbsup:

[eyeoneblack]

I have a little different standpoint. I have nobody to protect except myself, and I would rather be killed than to kill - no matter what. I hope to enter my next translation with no blood on my hands (the poor critters I exterminated when I was a kid with a shotgun not withstanding).

I have violated about every religious tenet when I was young and even older than young. I'm done with violence and moral indiscretion - I hope. I would not kill a person who would kill me. I just wouldn't.

[BDeye]

EOB, I think this is an admirable standpoint and some of the people that I admire most in my life practiced a life of non-violence, under any circumstances. It's a way that I wish I was strong enough to follow, because most certainly it takes a lot more strength not to retaliate. I'm just caveman when it comes to family.

As for my own safety, it's a question I could not honestly answer. I think if someone were coming at me with a weapon I would defend myself, the level of force I use would depend greatly on the individuals commitment to ending my life. Though if I could, I would seek out a spot in the world where the probability of violence was remote.

The removal of somethings life from this universe is an act that is irrevocable (whether it be human or other) and is something that you carry with you forever. I don't kill, not from a moral standpoint or in the hope of a spiritual reward, but because the sight of something in distress is like razor blades across my soul. If I see something in distress through the actions of another individual, I have to stop it, with the level of force appropriate to the situation.

I do believe that we will see a world without violence but there are issues we will have to overcome before this is a manifested reality.

[BDeye]

(Just wanted to add this is a white flag) This can be a touchy topic so please let's not get angry. I think it's a good question and so far the responses have been measured and civil. EOB as I said, your approach is one that I truly admire and attempt to cultivate in myself. It's very difficult to overcome the instinctual urge to protect family, with what may sometimes be an overreaction. I think as beings we are evolving all the time and hopefully we will reach a level, where the aggressive drive which pushes us forward as a species, will no longer manifests as an unnecessary urge to harm other living beings.

[eyeoneblack]

I totally appreciate where you're coming from, BDeye.

[GMAN12]

I thank all you who replied. I think myself I wouldn't be able to kill a person, yet if in the most extreme instances I possibly would. My state is known for people killing themselves. In fact it is the no. 1 Killer in my state. Ironic it is Hawaii though.

[Gemma]

I have a very mixed viewpoint relating to killing.

Just a couple of examples about insects/arachnids even though I realise this is more about killing humans.

I have arachnophobia, and for years throughout my childhood, teens and up to my mid 20's, the sight of a medium-sized spider would terrify me to the point where I wouldn't even go into the room. If I had to be in that room, I would either get as much distance between myself and the spider, or if that wasn't possible I would try to kill it, preferably at range. I eventually got to grips with my fear to the point where I could sit fairly calmly whenever there's a medium-sized spider in the room. Small ones no longer bother me and I've started to observe them closely, and I've even admired their beauty, and felt great love for them. For the first time ever, last year I was able to capture a medium-sized spider using a glass and a magazine, and release it outside. I still felt some fear but it didn't drive me to kill. Sadly, large spiders still terrify me.

In the UK we get craneflies during the summer. Here they are pretty large. I used to be terrified of them because they looked too much like a spider with wings. I used to flap and get myself into a state whenever one was flying around the room, and often I've swatted them to death, out of terror and disgust. Craneflies no longer bother me. I refuse to kill them now except for the unlucky ones who manage to injure themselves to the point where they struggle on the floor for ages before dying. I will put those out of their misery, out of compassion.

BUT, when it comes to humans and larger animals, I have mixed feelings.

In general I wouldn't kill a human being. It is not my right to do that unless I was in a position where it's either kill or be killed. The same would be true if I witnessed any person being attacked and I thought their lives were in mortal danger. I would use lethal force if I felt I had to. It's basic survival.

However, when it comes to war, I believe we all have a choice, including the politicians who start wars. I can only speak for my own country but British soldiers are not forced to join the Army. That's a career choice, which they make knowing full well they're likely to cause someone else's death whilst on tour. They are trained to kill on command. Documentaries have been made showing the training of these soldiers, they often talk about the reasons for joining up and the justifications they make to themselves for killing are sad to hear. It's amazing (not in a good way) what they come out with on camera. It's safe to say that if I had the option of joining the Armed Forces that I wouldn't make that choice. As it happens, I don't have that option.

There are other situations where people may kill another. Desperation arising from fear is a part of survival in some cases. A group of starving people might kill one member just so that they can eat. Maybe a parent will kill their baby because they're so poor and desperate that they can't see past the perception of not having enough resources to feed another mouth. I refuse to judge these people. I'm not in their shoes, and if I was, who's to say I wouldn't kill out of desperation?

Human euthanasia I have no moral/ethical issue with. IMO it should be legalised.

When it comes to animals, I feel it's not wrong to hunt animals for food, but to take more than we need especially for profit feels wrong on every level. We need to respect nature a lot more than we do (speaking for myself as well).

I believe that fear is at the root of most killings in this world. Sometimes compassion is the motivation.

And so on.

[GMAN12]

I also believe human euthanasia should be legalized as well. I know lots of people who are starting to commit suicide, but I know they would feel much better and once they are 18, they can do what they want.

[CFTraveler]

Human euthanasia? You mean murder?

[Gemma]

I mean, someone who is in agony due to an illness, who is not able to administer the drugs required to end their life by themselves. We do it for our pets if they're suffering an injury or an illness that reduces their quality of life because it's kinder to do that, so why not with humans who are in a similar position, if they explicitly requested it?

In my mind, to murder a person means to kill them against their will. E.g. a gunman goes on the rampage in a diner or a suicide bomber, etc.

That's the difference in my mind.

[CFTraveler]

Sorry, but for me to legalize euthanasia is to open a very dangerous door. Assisted suicide is one thing, killing someone else because they're suffering is another. I do agree that a person should be allowed to choose life or death, but euthanasia is giving someone that is not the patient the power to end their life, according to possibly subjective criteria, and this scares me.

[GMAN12]

I would like to contradict you at this moment CFT. If it is the will of the person, the person giving the euthanasia will not be the person who caused the death, but freed a spirit. Murder is different from Euthanasia in which like Gemma said is forced onto the person and done because of anger or the increase of ego, but I feel euthanasia is a type of service.

[CFTraveler]

But you realize that euthanasia and assisted suicide are not the same thing, right?

[Gemma]

It is in my book.

But, there are different contexts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia

So it can obviously mean different things to different people.

[heliac]

I don't know if anyone is ever really forced to kill. If you are in a position to do so there will be a choice at some point. I could see how killing when faced with a predator could be justified. Predators can't be reasoned with.

[IA56]

Euthanasia to humans in my world is forbidden, I see this in this way, if a human suffers it is our duty to comfort and help, I see this as a test for us who see a person be ill or in pain or agony and wanting to get help to be killed, all our suffering is given us for a reason, and should be cleared out and help the person who suffers...both will learn something out of it....the sufferer the most, we grow only through pain, and the helpers have get a good time to practis both patience and mercy and love.

I understand that we do this to animals maybe because we do not have as much of knowledge how to mend them or help them so we see it as a mercyful act to kill them, I feel it is very sad.

Love
ia

[ButterflyWoman]

I don't know if anyone is ever really forced to kill. If you are in a position to do so there will be a choice at some point.
Agreed. You can allow yourself to be killed, or to simply not fight back and let what happens, happen. I'm not saying people SHOULD do that, but you are never forced to kill. You can refuse to participate.

However, and I know I'll get howls of disapproval at this, I don't see death as that horrible a thing. No, I don't approve of murder, because it has a ripple effect in society as a whole, and causes a great deal of pain and misery that the world could do without. But death comes to EVERYONE, sometimes before you're even born, sometimes after a long and horribly painful life that you would have rather not lived at all, and every variation in between. Death is just part of life, part of the cycle. The preoccupation with death seems somewhat ridiculous to me, and I believe it's rooted in most people's own fear of death (very few people have truly overcome that fear, and it drives an awful lot people, sometimes in strange directions).

[IA56]

Agreed. You can allow yourself to be killed, or to simply not fight back and let what happens, happen. I'm not saying people SHOULD do that, but you are never forced to kill. You can refuse to participate.

However, and I know I'll get howls of disapproval at this, I don't see death as that horrible a thing. No, I don't approve of murder, because it has a ripple effect in society as a whole, and causes a great deal of pain and misery that the world could do without. But death comes to EVERYONE, sometimes before you're even born, sometimes after a long and horribly painful life that you would have rather not lived at all, and every variation in between. Death is just part of life, part of the cycle. The preoccupation with death seems somewhat ridiculous to me, and I believe it's rooted in most people's own fear of death (very few people have truly overcome that fear, and it drives an awful lot people, sometimes in strange directions).

Nodding...I totally agree.

Love
ia

[Frater.Akenu]

If you are attacked and you are alone, just run away, if you can, worse scenario is when someone close to you is with you and you are uncertain whether he/she could run away, in that case use whatever force you see fit to stop the attack.

[BDeye]

If you are attacked and you are alone, just run away, if you can, worse scenario is when someone close to you is with you and you are uncertain whether he/she could run away, in that case use whatever force you see fit to stop the attack.:thumbsup: Totally agree.

[IA56]

If you are attacked and you are alone, just run away, if you can, worse scenario is when someone close to you is with you and you are uncertain whether he/she could run away, in that case use whatever force you see fit to stop the attack.

Yes off course...

Love
ia

[DarkChylde]

i think this also has a lot to do with power tactics , a lot of people (beg your pardon ; i need to use a coarse word) "get off" on the thrill of killing someone , i used to think this was something one would expect mostly in movies but it's far much more common than people realize.

sometimes killing someone in self defense doesn't mean your'e out of trouble ,a lot of people get indicted simply for self preservation unless there is pre-existing evidence the aggressor was set out murderous intent.Having a court issued restraining order doesn't cut it either , most of the time you need evidence that is admissible to law.

ultimately it all boils down to sheer hard luck , if someone is "forced" to kill (regardless what the driving "force" was) , if your number is up then it's up.
You can take self-defense classes , carry a tazer , carry a firearm , but none of that matters , in the very end , when someone somewhere dies , you can't get them back.

This is extremely heart wrenching but loss leaves you feeling like that , no matter which way you cut a situation , your'e not getting the person back.Passage of time doesn't help , you just learn to accept reality and live with it.

[Frater.Akenu]

I would say that killing in self-defense is pretty rare and usually unintentional (killing more by mistake). You know, to intentionally kill someone, you have to get the drive, you have to provoke yourself to the right state of mind where empathy is switched off and killing intent is the only real drive. People that usually attack you also need this state to truly kill you, they have to stalk you for some time and provoke themselves, why? Well, because if things don't go as they expected, they actually could get killed, hurt or imprisoned, it's quite an adrenaline if you think about it. Only exceptions are people heavily on drugs or total maniacal sociopaths :D.

You can actually get a great deal of information on http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/
regarding the behavior of criminals, how to recognize them, what drives them, how to defend yourself and most importantly, how to prevent the assault.

[DarkChylde]

regarding the behavior of criminals, how to recognize them, what drives them, how to defend yourself and most importantly, how to prevent the assault.

a very excellent point indeed and one i missed the mention of.

you can worry about loved ones every time they step out , keep tabs , keep and eye out , but ultimately in a face off you need to make sure you and your family know how to identify such people.

If push comes to shove being armed won't cut it , make sure you and your family know how to "read" a situation and recognize "criminals" - their vibe , their intent , their motives and their drive (i cannot stress enough on the importance of this)

consider this "life insurance" - do as much as you can to recognize high risk , and make sure your family does too : 1)situations 2)people and 3)areas.

[BDeye]

If push comes to shove being armed won't cut it , make sure you and your family know how to "read" a situation and recognize "criminals" - their vibe , their intent , their motives and their drive

Excellent point, being proactive will save a lot of strife.

[DarkChylde]

also it's very worth while to mention that kids should be educated about this all as early as possible (imo)

before getting a driver's license , my father (a very highly decorated military ex-official) used every opportunity he got to hone my radar on my this , he would pick someone for an example and would just randomly tell me that's that "shady" person you thoroughly steer clear off , that helped a lot till my radar on this situations finally took off on it's own.

my mother (she used to work in demographics) would similarly randomly quiz me on bus routes , maps , and phone numbers (and i had to know each one) ; there was no sass back , lip or backtalk on this one , i was expected to know all this information and there were no two ways about it.Period.

Instill in your kids that they need to "trust their gut" on things like this , things are seldom what they seem , give your family the proper tools to make sure they "develop" instinct on this , work with that instinct and make sure you never end in a place where your'e saying "i thought stuff like that happened to other people only"

[BDeye]

Again very good points, I do this with my sisters kids everyday. Keep their eyes open being priority and then in the case of an event they also have a drill to follow, where the safe points are and suchlike.

[DarkChylde]

i do this my neighbor's kids , yesterday i was telling them how to read number plates on a car , i was shocked to see they couldn't even tell which car were out of city which ones were local.
some time even before that i was telling them to give people absolutely no information at all when anyone other than expected company arrives asking questions that seem innocuous "what time does your dad leave home mostly? and when does your mom get home?" (they have no idea on how crooks case a joint)- again blank slates.

that's not good parenting (at least not in my book sorry to say) , this is one area you just don't cut any slack and nothing withstanding , i don't care how it goes against the all important "cool" factor in teens even.

[BDeye]

Yeah it's very scary, my niece and nephew are very young still, so I try make little attention games for them, what type of car is that and so on. I do it when they're watching movie(all the time), make them count how many people are in the scene, what colour their clothes are how many cars are in the background. I think if we can increase their awareness, attention and memory and send them out into the world with the best weapon(the gray mass between their ears) we're taking a step in the right direction.

[DarkChylde]

mine are pre-teens i used to baby sit them when they were mere kids , they are getting more and more with the hip , cool stuff ,they think that living in an upscale posh locale renders them immune to crime , assault or murder since we have patrol and night guards.

I don't think they see life in total peripheral view just yet , to the depraved mind , busting a cap in some unsuspecting victim screaming "where's your fancy body guard and patrol now!, who's going to save you now!" (they don't understand they make more "delicious" target that way)

I just want to exert as much influence as I can before the teen zone takes off full swing.

[BDeye]

Yes it's very difficult to instill that sort of conditioning into an adult or young person if the intention to learn these skills isn't there. If from a young age it can be made enjoyable for them, then hopefully in later life it can become second nature. Something I had to learn the hard way, wish I'd been trained in this mode of thinking when I was a child, having to do it with my swiss cheese of a brain is proving quite difficult now. Still a good mindset to adopt though.

[Tutor]

it's the kinda thing that is speculative until you are in it, afterwards ya know the answer to the question. force to kill has the first priority of saving lives, even if that means one loses their own life saving others. this is the honorable premise of any type of warring. if it is not the priority, then the premise is murder, without regard to life at all. like hunting, if ya eat it, i reckon it is honorable.

bd i agree with ya. you meet in the world just exactly what you are within. now there is a topic that would scare anyone at any age. to know without a shadow of a doubt what is in deed dwelling within any of mankind. is it good or bad? well that depends on what ya meet in the world, having further indications as to how a meeting works out. that 'works out' may be taken in two ways.

hell, i wont even hurt a poisoness snake, i catch it, take it somehwere remote and away from people, release it. done three copperheads that way, they were under my concrete stoop as i jackhammered it out for to pour a new patio. usually there is a way to keep from killing even the most dangerous of life's offerings, iff'n ya have a heart to mindfully practice respect for life.