Is this path worth the risk?

[Energize]

Hi Folks,

I've been reading Robert's "Practical Self Defense Handbook".
Wow. Heavy stuff. A number of questions and comments have arisen for me, and I decided to start this thread to get some answers and discussion happening if possible.

To my knowledge, I haven't had much in the way of psychic/spooky/metaphysical events happen to me. I've had maybe a handful of events, but for the most part, I've been living very much in the physical reality. So, a bit of a 'Noob'.
:shock:

I have been reading about these kind of spiritual subjects for many years, but I have gotten to the point where I want to experience an astral projection...I want to 'prove' to myself that there is more to everyday existence, and I'm not on some wild-goose-chase. Additionally, I want to get closer to a true spiritual experience and evolve. With that in mind, about 6 months ago I began to meditate regularly, and now I'm reading about raising my energy and astral projection, in earnest.

However, reading about Robert's bad experiences (I haven't completely finished the book yet), and reading that by developing your inherent abilities to astral project and your psychic capabilities, you may be opening yourself up to attacks...this has given me pause!

I think it's a good idea to pursue spiritual and consciousness evolution, but I also have my family to consider. The thought that I might inadvertently be attracting negs into our home and our lives repels me. Reading about the frequency with which Robert has experienced negs and that his family and children were affected makes me very concerned.

So, not having had any obvious trouble like this in my life so far, I'm wondering if it's worth it to continue along this avenue of development. Life is challenging enough.

I'd appreciate any insights.

P.S. I have other questions in relation to this, but first things first. ;)

[ButterflyWoman]

Short answer: Yes, in ways that cannot be described.

More complicated answer: The path chooses you, not the other way around. People love to think they chose it, because ego always thinks it's large and in charge, but it's not actually about you, or me, or anyone else. It's about the One (Consciousness, Self, God/dess, Brahman, Universal Awareness, whatever term you like), and when Awakening or at least increased awareness or expanded experience is what is to manifest, that's what manifests, and you, or I, or whomever is just the vessel for that.

You can go ahead and try to back out, and it might work (assuming the path was actually about dabbling, which is okay, and there's nothing wrong with that! It's a valid experience!), but I can tell you I spent many years trying to ignore or drown out or disengage or otherwise avoid my mystical side, and it never did work. Once I embraced it, I understood that I never did choose, never could have chosen. It is what it is, I am what I am, and, as a Buddhist might say, I am That.

This might be a little deep or weird sounding (or, heaven forbid, all guru-speak, yuck), but that's okay. My perspective is pretty far gone from the mundane these days, and even though I try to put things in terms people will understand, it doesn't always work. :) Just consider it food for thought, I suppose. ;)

[Energize]

Hi ButterflyWoman! I really like your words. :-)
I don't think I'll ever back out of exploring this mystical stuff. Even though some things I read make me raise an eyebrow - or even both.

Although I am still under the illusion of my little ego self (heh heh!), I do like the idea that my deep interest is caused by the One consciousness. A powerhouse of goodness helping me along. Like the affirmation from the book - "I am powerfully protected".

However. As a relative 'greenhorn', I'm still heavily involved with pragmatism. I don't want to transform my home into some kind of Amityville because I started astral projecting. Ignorance may indeed be bliss if the alternative is exposing your kids to negs.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen anyway, even if someone wasn't exploring the astral and developing their psychic abilities, but I want to assess if I'm increasing the risks to myself and my family.

[CFTraveler]

I just want to comment on a few things:
With astral projection specifically, you do not 'open' yourself to anything. I don't know how many times I've said it before, but I'll say it again and again- projecting is like putting on seeing goggles before jumping in a pool full of fish. You already are in the pool of fish regardless of whether you use the goggles or not. The only difference with the goggles is that you can see what's in the water.
Robert's problems with possession started when he exorcised a demon from a child, and he told the demon to take him instead- and that is exactly what the demon did. This is a very specific thing that he was doing, you don't invite demons in by projecting, or any such thing.
Even when you project and suffer a paradigm change, the only change that can happen is that you accept what you see as 'objective reality', and some don't, I believe what you experience in projection is only partially 'outside of you'- but that is another subject, that we can attack in another post.
Most of the people that suffer negative entity problems do so independently from the practice of astral projection- in many cases, including my own, the neg attacks came first, and conscious deliberate projection was learned to help counteract or fight back.
About the only people that I have known that have suffered attacks from 'doing something esoteric' were people that dabbled with Ouija boards or attempted to do black magic on someone else, and instead ended up with a problem.
If anything, people with neg problems are often afraid to try, or end up learning a long time after having the problem, and once they've gotten over the fear, since they have the problem regardless.

-However- if you have a fear associated with OBE, you should try to deal with it before learning, because dollars to donuts you will manifest the problem so you can get over it- the subconscious (or superconscious) is merciless that way.;)

[Energize]

Yeah, that totally makes sense. If we are really sharing our existence with multiple realities, individuals and creatures, better to see than be blindfolded!

Very interesting, this aspect of the astral being partly objective and partly subjective; created by thought. I've read about it many times. A little difficult for me to imagine how anyone could 'navigate' such a fluid environment, and whether objective reasoning and decision making could be usefully applied. I'm sounding like a dusty professor heh heh, but I do want to make some practical use of my eventual explorations. Difficulties encountered in remembering the events concerns me too in this regard. But as you said...for another thread.
;)

I don't have any specific fear about the astral, apart from a natural feeling of tension about the unknown. And of course my imagination sometimes presents possible scarey scenarios I might encounter. "Go away imagination, you're not helping!"

I would like to be reasonably educated about what I might be getting myself into though. And wow, some of the extreme stuff I've read about on this site and others, sound serious. Sheesh!

Seeing the occasional unsavory character or disturbing image while in the astral I can brace myself for - but bringing stuff back to everyday reality? No thanks! The whole family walking around with big packs of negs hanging off them.

I hadn't planned on using a Ouija board or practicing black magic though, so that's a positive. :P

P.S. don't mistake my lighthearted tone to mean I don't treat the subject with proper respect. :|

[Energize]

One additional aspect - in Robert's handbook, I got the impression that increasing your psychic abilities or 'sensitivities' could make you more susceptible to attacks - from here or beyond - and maybe make you a more desirable target for such attacks. Any insights regarding this would also be helpful.

[CFTraveler]

I can't speak for the handbook but I have read both editions of AD and even though he talks about negs and attacks he does say that he doesn't think projecting makes them see you- other practices, especially in the ones where you evoke and invoke may be different. It has been years since I gave the old edition a good reading, but in the new one he says that your fear is your biggest obstacle. I do suggest you scan the 'ask RB' subforum to see if he has mentioned this (or has been asked this) lately.

[eyeoneblack]

I love your avatar and have more to say, but I can't just know. Stay tuned. I don't care what boards and threads we're interested in; we are a community and connected in more ways than we know. You are new and so welcome! As the English say, "Carry on!"

[Energize]

Awesome, thanks eyeoneblack!
Looking forward to hearing what you've got to say.
Been seeing your posts around the place...and enjoying reading them.

[Energize]

I've been reading more of Robert's handbook.

The impression I'm getting now is that neg attachments can be caused by external (exposure to people and environments) and internal influences (core negative images and experiences), rather than astral projection itself.

However, the idea persists that being psychically 'sensitive' can expose you to greater risks or make you a more attractive target. I've heard that meditation, energy work and OBE can activate people's psychic senses.

Can anyone shed some light on this matter?

[Eyeswideopen]

Thank you so much for saying that Eyeoneblack, it's so important to fit it and you made my heart smile. If indeed we are more connected than we think then I am so pleased to be a part of it as everyone on here is helpful warm encouraging and friendly. I am grateful to have stumbled upon Roberts site.

Meanwhile nice to meet you Energize, I am finding your curiosity threads really enjoyable.

[newfreedom]

I've heard that meditation, energy work and OBE can activate people's psychic senses.

your not wrong ..... Energize...... i have had OBE's, done meditations and energywork and my sense's blasted open in spring 2006....... and continue to increase as the years go by.

Why is this something you wouldn't want ?


i was desperate for it :mrgreen:xX

[CFTraveler]

However, the idea persists that being psychically 'sensitive' can expose you to greater risks or make you a more attractive target. That's because it's a 'non judgemental' excuse to try to convince people not to explore. In more 'old' times, some groups would say that 'it's against God' or 'it's against some sacred rule' as an excuse to keep your senses 'off', but that doesn't cut it anymore. So the new and improved excuse is that it 'makes you more attractive to negativity' or some other type of fearbased logic. This is probably because it makes you more aware, and they're confusing 'awareness' with 'attractiveness', which isn't that surprising.

I've heard that meditation, energy work and OBE can activate people's psychic senses.

Can anyone shed some light on this matter? Of course. What meditation, and the trance practices associated with projection training does is bring the conscious mind into unconscious states, where typically the subconscious mind is in charge.
What 'psychic perception' is, is simply seeing what is there already, in energy form, or in the 'information' that is in the non-temporal state- the 'info' is there, but not in immediate ordinary timespace for the senses to see.
Your energy body is your organ of perception. That's why we sometimes have precognitive dreams or dreams in which we meet the recently deceased. Sure, all of this comes from memory, but not all this memory comes from the physical senses.
So a lot of this interaction is there in your memory but not accessible, or later to be remembered as a 'hunch'.
But when you meditate or cultivate trance, you are bringing your conscious awareness into a state in which the information is there, for you to perceive objectively (like you're in it and it's around you) instead of as a 'hunch' or 'idea'- it's right in front of you.
When your psyche gets used to your accessing trance states and perceiving the information, whether it's symbolic or not, the subconscious 'relaxes' and lets down some of the barriers it had previously put up to protect itself from your trauma, should you see something that you either didn't want to see, shouldn't see, or just don't believe it is possible for you to see. This is a big one. So if you cultivate practices that allow you to see what's in your subconscious, your subconscious will get the message that it's ok to see, and will allow you to see.
So yes, these practices will allow you to develop what comes naturally to you (some people tend to clairvoyance, others to clairaudience, and others to precognition, for example). But being able to 'see' doesn't mean that 'others' will all of a sudden be attracted to you. That's movies stuff.

[Energize]

Nice to meet you too Eyeswideopen! I'm glad you're enjoying the threads. Funny how my mind works though, heh heh. When I'm writing I get into it, but afterwards my (ego?) mind starts to worry that I might be sounding foolish and causes me moments of low level anguish. "Shoosh ego, I'm busy!"
;)

CFTraveler, awesome info, thank you for writing. It makes sense that psychic senses are natural. Hey maybe more natural than all our other senses! I imagine that as a sense, it could be just as useful as our physical ones for navigating through life - and consciousness. Your rational approach is dampening my concerns.
:angelic:

newfreedom! Wow, I'm intrigued! As a person starting out on this path, I'm very interested in your experiences. Did you have any experiences before you explored all this, or was it new to you? Why did you want it so much, and what do you like about it? (If I had a tail, it would be wagging furiously)

[Energize]

CFTraveller, I just came across a thread you posted in 2010 called "Warning" (http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/showthread.php?9886-Warning):

This was packed full of much of the info I've been seeking in this thread.
I'd like to get a little more specific with my inquiry.

Firstly, regarding attacks from negs of the more serious kind (and I'd certainly class ones that cause major problems in physical reality to be serious)...just confirming: to your knowledge, it seems that there is no direct correlation between astral projection and these serious neg problems/attacks? I get the impression that really nasty stuff is extremely rare, and when present it was usually already there in the first place.

Regarding the more garden variety of neg. Do most people encounter them quite quickly (eg. early on in their explorations)? Are there lots of them? I mean, are you constantly dodging negs or withstanding extreme fear? I used to have the impression (perhaps naively) that the astral was by and large a happy place to explore, but in that post you are saying that people will definitely experience extreme fear. Repeatedly.

A guest post here (http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/showthread.php?193-Understanding-this-is-very-real) says "You can travel in the astral plane alone your whole life and never even begin to touch everything that exists there, so naturally don't be shocked if you don't see any negative spirits or demons on your journey, as most of you won't." ...So some people might never have a fearful or negative experience??

I've also read some rather bizarre (to a relative newbie like myself) accounts about people who claim to have been abducted while astral traveling by demonic aliens and such. As outlandish as these accounts seem to me (as someone who has no experience - apologies to any authors, no offense intended), a concerning aspect of these is that they say it happened 'out of the blue' as it were - no black magic rites or anything.

Finally, has anyone got some examples of scarey things they have experienced while astral projecting, and how they dealt with it?

I know I may seem to be hammering this subject, but I would sincerely like to find out more. I reckon if astral projecting was mainly fearful encounters, people wouldn't do it. If 'regular' scarey scenarios come up, and it's only mental (not physical or dangerous), then I guess I have nothing to fear, except, um, fear itself.

[CFTraveler]

I don't have time to answer your question fully, but I'll touch on it briefly:

Firstly, regarding attacks from negs of the more serious kind (and I'd certainly class ones that cause major problems in physical reality to be serious)...just confirming: to your knowledge, it seems that there is no direct correlation between astral projection and these serious neg problems/attacks? I get the impression that really nasty stuff is extremely rare, and when present it was usually already there in the first place. That is my impression and experience, yes.


Regarding the more garden variety of neg. Do most people encounter them quite quickly (eg. early on in their explorations)? Are there lots of them? I mean, are you constantly dodging negs or withstanding extreme fear? I used to have the impression (perhaps naively) that the astral was by and large a happy place to explore, but in that post you are saying that people will definitely experience extreme fear. Repeatedly. I think it depends. I had neg problems at forty (and none before that, and I've been projecting since I was quite young. But some people have more than others.
Regarding fear, fear is an obstacle that will be tested if it's present. I don't know who doesn't have any fear- so it's not that fear can't happen, it's that it depends on the person. I began to have fear (for reasons that I won't go into here, because they're personal) at forty, and I was tested at forty. I got over it and the problems either disappeared or became rare and 'no big deal'.

[DarkChylde]

...increasing your psychic abilities or 'sensitivities' could make you more susceptible to attacks - from here or beyond - and maybe make you a more desirable target for such attacks. Any insights regarding this would also be helpful.
interesting, i stumbled upon this when working the energy routines in Geneive L.Paulson's book "Kundalini and it's chakras" , it's an unpopular , rarely read book (i wonder why) , anyway in the book one starts with the upper to lower chakras (weird right?)
now you see the author wrote the book in a very effacing sweet tone of humility devoid of any brash assumptive authority but wrote something like this "whatever the 3rd eye can do? believe me the 5th can do far better" (that really stood out to me) , she wrote that in uncharacteristic steel-like certitude , as if an extraordinarily beautiful woman would spurn away a suitor with a mere gesture of a hand saying "i don't have the time of day for this actually"
After working the upper circuits (there are no exercises for the ajna chakra in her book ! hahaha!!) i realized something was awry , at the time the person i was with picked up on it almost immediately , it started with little comments like "why don't you say it , i want us to be more comfortable with each other etc etc" (problem was i didn't want to get any more comfortable then the stage we were at already and was deliberating certain things), then my family started picking up on certain things (which lead me to believe i had become a more expressive ,confident a more "articulate" person (my god im so vain :roll: ).Then a few (very very) specific things happened that finally made me understand i was "broadcasting" my dominant thoughts before i pulled the plug on the energy work.

I'm meandering from the thread's subject matter here somewhat i reckon.

"Dion Fortune - Guide of Practical Psychic Self Defence" is the absolute total last word on this particular subject , every single word in that book is twice it's weight in reagent grade platinum - i swear by this book , there was a time in my life when I came across people far more spiritually developed then myself , people who took on malice for the sheer thrill it affords ,genuine vicious ill-intent , i'm proud to say i held the fort just fine :-)

[Energize]

That is my impression and experience, yes. Okay, good!
CFTraveler, I don't want to press you for detailed information about what I imagine was a distressing time for you...but when you say you were 'tested', what do you mean - a higher self test set for you or something? If we are all tested (as we all have fear to some degree), what factors do you think determine whether it is just a mental thought form of some kind versus a malicious entity?


Hi DarkChylde, thanks for your reply. Had a look at "Kundalini and it's chakras" on Amazon, and it had a few poor reviews - people disagreeing with her info, including how many major chakras there are in fact and where they're located! I haven't looked too closely at the whole Kundalini thing yet, because I don't think I'm ready for it (not properly informed about it). Very interesting about your experience of broadcasting your thoughts! Makes me think of descriptions I've read regarding the afterlife, where deception is not possible because thoughts are mainly transparent (might be the 'higher' realms only, because I have read about deception being practiced in the astral).

I read some preview pages of Dion Fortune's Guide of Practical Psychic Self Defense, and I bought the Kindle version. Thanks for the tip DarkChylde!

I read one of Bruce's articles where he questions the information gained by channeled spirits, including ones from the turn of the century. Good to know and be wary, but I must admit I have enjoyed reading various books from the early 20th century. I've found them useful as an overview of astral and psychic subjects. And I must admit I'm charmed by the slightly quaint way they had of speaking - oddly formal. Strange era - I associate it with magic and seances and ecotoplasm and spooky carnivals heh heh!

[CFTraveler]

CFTraveler, I don't want to press you for detailed information about what I imagine was a distressing time for you...but when you say you were 'tested', what do you mean - a higher self test set for you or something? If we are all tested (as we all have fear to some degree), what factors do you think determine whether it is just a mental thought form of some kind versus a malicious entity? All of the above. I looked for old posts in which I explained what was happening, but I couldn't find any. I thought I had put keywords in them to explain, but searching with the ones I could find got me nothing. So suffice it to say that it started out with horrific experiences that resembled et abductions (around the time I turned forty, FWTW), which prompted me to do some research. After figuring out that the experiences were not physical (as once I woke up from an 'abduction' attempt next to another person, who did not notice- showing that I was in a trance and being pulled out of body)- which then pointed me to looking into the OBE phenomenon, which I had been having for years (since I was a child- but not like this- this was so different it just never occurred to me that it could be related) which got me to find Robert and MAP, where I learned about PSD and the deliberate induction of OBE, and once I learned to OBE and do energy work I was able to control what was happening to me.
Then the experiences changed, when I got over my fear, and I was able to meet the entity that was doing this face to face, and the experiences changed from learning not to be afraid, to many other wonderful things.
Even though it's been years since my experiences were negative, I do not feel the original experiences were negative anymore- now I see them as a 'crash course' in projection, which my HS, for some reason, fifteen years ago decided I needed to learn.

[ButterflyWoman]

I do not feel the original experiences were negative anymore
*nodnod* I can identify with that completely. Not so much with OBE, but in many, many other ways.

[Energize]

Wow. That is truly astonishing CFT. You must have been really freaked out at the time, poor thing.

By the way, I did continue to read your journal today (on my iphone while waiting to pick up my sons from school), but I couldn't spot anything, so I guessed it must have happened before you wrote the journal.

Despite my calling ET stuff outlandish a couple of posts above [sheepishly looks at the ground], I have actually done a fair amount of reading (and watched tons of TV shows!) about this stuff. I have heard skeptics say it's just a combination of bad hypnosis regression techniques and mass media influences. I have heard people suggest it's a physical reality, others suggest it's from another dimension - still others say it's both. As fascinated as I am with the subject, there is just so much wild stuff being thrown around about it, I find it difficult to sort truth from conjecture and fantasy - and I won't even mention hoaxers or government conspiracies here.

So you're saying it was probably extraterrestrial in origin, and not simply an inhabitant of the lower astral or something? And you communicated with it? What in the world would its motivation be to mess with people? My first assumption if it was an astral neg, would be simply malice. How did the experiences change to something wonderful? I'm really confused and extremely fascinated, so please forgive me for pressing you for more information.

Most of the ET abduction accounts I've read are extremely unsavoury, like some kind of space nazis. But there may even be multiple races visiting in different ways, with totally different agendas. Once again, there's just so much wild stuff out there in the media, I feel a bit flaky even looking at it. I prefer reading and watching accounts that are either scientifically minded (not that there's much empirical evidence mind you), or eyewitness accounts of strange craft by the public - especially mass sightings by multiple witnesses.

I also recall a scene from one of Whitley Strieber's books where he winds up having a dance with his tormentors - I never did quite understand what was happening there. I know it's not very spiritually advanced of me, but I think I'd be harbouring a bit of resentment.

[Energize]

BFWoman, did you have negative experiences at one time? Was it to do with Kundalini awakening or something? I've heard that that kind of thing can have negative effects, but I haven't been able to find out exactly what those effects are as yet! I get the impression of people talking about it in hushed tones, but no one actually says what it does. I've only been able to find warnings that people should only undertake a deliberate attempt while under the guidance of a pro. I'm guessing maybe a flood of psychic impressions or something that make people feel like they're losing it?

[ButterflyWoman]

BFWoman, did you have negative experiences at one time?
Most of my life was negative experiences. :)


Was it to do with Kundalini awakening or something?
Well, that wasn't pleasant, and it took a long time, but the Kundalini awakening and the transformation that came from it was what actually fixed a lot of the stuff that was causing the negative experiences.


I've heard that that kind of thing can have negative effects, but I haven't been able to find out exactly what those effects are as yet!
Spend some time going through the Kundalini forum here. There's quite a lot of information there.


I get the impression of people talking about it in hushed tones, but no one actually says what it does.
It's extremely personal and individualised. I had a complete breakdown, and I'm not kidding about that. Lost everything that was important to me. Not a pleasant time in my life. But transformation, metamorphosis if you will, is not an easy process.


I'm guessing maybe a flood of psychic impressions or something that make people feel like they're losing it?
In my case, a complete undoing and rewiring and I really DID lose it. Seriously.

BUT... I was a very dysfunctional, screwed up person. Some people have an easier time of it. I don't think many have worse. I don't suppose there is too much worse than what I went through. I can think of a couple of things that could have been added (homelessness, for example), but I have rarely heard of anyone having as difficult a time of it as I did. (That sounds weirdly like I'm bragging. I don't intend that at all. I'm just making an observation. I had a very, very rough transition, for a lot of reasons. Not everyone does.)

Basically, a full Kundalini awakening will strip away all your illusions until you realise that you and everything you hold dear, believe, want, dream of, love, hope for, and otherwise cherish is also an illusion. That process can be pretty unpleasant. Then, of course, there's a period of adjustment which can take some years, as well.

But back to the original question: Yes, it was worth it. In ways that cannot be described, but only experienced.

[CFTraveler]

It began long before I started my journal. Prob. in 1998 or 9, continued until 2005, when I learned to stop it by doing energy work on myself. Long story and for another theme.

So you're saying it was probably extraterrestrial in origin, and not simply an inhabitant of the lower astral or something? And you communicated with it? No, I said exactly the opposite. At first I thought I had gone crazy at forty. Then I thought maybe it was ET stuff. Then I realized it was nonphysical and mostly related to negative entities, and then came to think (don't want to say 'believe', because at fifty-five I still don't know enough about the universe to believe anything) that it is more of a 'life path direction' kind of thing, maybe my Higher Self or guides or something, considering how my life has turned out. Or is turning out.

[Energize]

Just want to say thank you so much ladies for taking the time to discuss and share your knowledge. It's very refreshing to actually talk with someone about these subjects, rather than just read books, heh heh!

CFT. Ah! So it was reminiscent of an ET experience, but turned out to be more non-physical. I'm very curious about how it was transformed for you. Did you communicate with the entity? Did you essentially free yourself from what was happening to you? Did the interactions with the entity transform into positive ones, or was it that you simply learned enough about the non-physical to allow you to experience the positive aspects of the universe?

BFW, I will read the forum about Kundalini. My impression of the phenomenon is that it's a rapid (comparatively anyway) and powerful transformation. I also get the impression that it has a lot to do with a partial or total 'destruction' of the ego.

This concept of being striped back to bare consciousness is one that fills me with joy and fear at the same time. If our natural state of being or consciousness is being at peace and often filled with the joy and the power of true spirit, then the result could be a desirable one. Sometimes I get the slightest hint of what that might be like (memories of between life existence perhaps). But the feeling of attachment I have to my identity is fairly strong, which I suppose is natural for most people. Hence the fear of death and maybe the source of many distressing near death experiences (although I don't think all distressing NDE's are only ego based anymore).

This conundrum is illustrated for me when I consider the concept that people may go through many many lives. Apparently often with members of the same extended soul group. So while I identify myself as a man, a father, a husband and a son in this life, in another life I might also be a niece, an uncle, a mother, a lover, a brother or a friend to these same souls. Okay, it seems weird to consider I might be my son's little sister or something in another life, but it does force you to have a closer look at how you identify yourself, your ego, and how temporary it may be.

And this is perhaps the heart of the matter - that the transformations we are talking about are revealing the part of the consciousness that continues throughout - the core. The nature of that core consciousness is one I ponder often. I think I'm working towards eventually getting more in touch with this state, but I feel I need my ego to function in the world. Responsibilities, work, family, daily routine. Hopefully I can achieve some breakthroughs without letting down those that depend on me.

"You listening, Higher Self??"
"I hear you Dude."
:-)

[ButterflyWoman]

My impression of the phenomenon is that it's a rapid (comparatively anyway) and powerful transformation.
Powerful, yes. Rapid? Well, it depends on how you define that. And for some people it's faster than for others. I can't even say how long it took because I'm not sure when it began (I can pinpoint the moment that I gave permission/intention for it to happen, though I had no clue what "Kundalini" was or anything else like that), but sometime around 1990 or a bit earlier. As for how long it took... Again, hard to say. It's not an all-in-one thing. It's like getting older. You keep doing it until you die. :) There's also an adjustment period because the new way of experiencing the world is very different, and the old ways become unusable, even if you try to hang on to them. I've heard from numerous sources that the adjustment period is generally around ten years or so, though, of course, that's an ongoing thing, so your adjustment increases all the time.

This is why I don't like the term "enlightened" (aside from the fact that I don't know what "enlightened" actually means to anyone else and the fact that it's extremely "loaded" with presumptions and assumptions and dogma). I like "awakening" because it's an ongoing thing. Once you're fully awake, you have to get on with it, and that, too, is a process...


I also get the impression that it has a lot to do with a partial or total 'destruction' of the ego.
Yes. Thought you're correct to put "destruction" in quotes. Ego never leaves, it's a necessary tool for navigating the material reality as far as I can tell. Ego is just forced to get over itself, which does feel like destruction (fortunately, for me, the clear understanding that I didn't really exist was actually kind of a relief, rather than a horrible shock; for some people it's quite agonising).


But the feeling of attachment I have to my identity is fairly strong, which I suppose is natural for most people.
Yes. Completely normal.


And this is perhaps the heart of the matter - that the transformations we are talking about are revealing the part of the consciousness that continues throughout - the core.
It's even more and even bigger than that. I tried several times to think of an analogy or metaphor, but I sound like a not-very-skilled wannabe Zen master when I try to explain it. That which can be described is not the Dao. :)


The nature of that core consciousness is one I ponder often.
Here's a seed. Where and what is "the internet"? Where does it exist? How does it exist? Consciousness is not dissimilar. (In a metaphorical, wannabe Zen mastery kinda way, I mean.)


I think I'm working towards eventually getting more in touch with this state
It's not about you. It's about the Consciousness. Consciousness reognises Itself through you (or me, or anyone, really). You don't get in touch with it, you become more transparent so that what truly is becomes aware of Itself.


I feel I need my ego to function in the world.
Yes, but you need it as a tool, not as who you really are. ;) It's an interface, nothing more. It's not you.


Responsibilities, work, family, daily routine.
Yes, well, most of us have those. ;) Chop wood, carry water. Or, in my case, cook meal, do laundry.


Hopefully I can achieve some breakthroughs without letting down those that depend on me.
They're on their own journey, but in the long run, they're no more real than you or I. In fact that realisation was one that really upset me, far more than knowing I was an illusion. Thinking of them as illusions, that was hard. All part of the adjustment.

[Sinera]

Most of the ET abduction accounts I've read are extremely unsavoury, like some kind of space nazis. But there may even be multiple races visiting in different ways, with totally different agendas. Once again, there's just so much wild stuff out there in the media, I feel a bit flaky even looking at it.
I recommend Dolores Cannon's books on this topic. She's doing regressions for many decades now and she deals also exclusively with UFO and ET (abduction) topics. There are several books, all with transcripts of hypnotic regression cases. A thrilling read, but not necessarily always negative, it's maybe even outrageously surprising in the end for some abduction victims. And yes, accordign to her findings, there are multiple races and multiple 'projects' going on as it seems. Also a kind of 'overall project' to bring mankind ahead.

Here's one book:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Custodians-Abduction-Dolores-Cannon/dp/1886940045/

[CFTraveler]

CFT. Ah! So it was reminiscent of an ET experience, but turned out to be more non-physical. I'm very curious about how it was transformed for you. Did you communicate with the entity? Yes, once I got over the fear.

Did you essentially free yourself from what was happening to you? Yes.

Did the interactions with the entity transform into positive ones, or was it that you simply learned enough about the non-physical to allow you to experience the positive aspects of the universe? Both. The learning came after the experience, but I was able to put a name on it. But we'd get into mysticism here.

[Energize]

BFW, when you went through the most difficult time of your awakening, was the pain you experienced mainly from the chaotic process, or did you experience neg activity as well? Do you astral project at all now, and if so, do you experience neg thought forms or entities? I wonder if someone who has had an awakening deals with negs differently.

Hey Volgerle, thanks for the book recommendation. Looks like a good one. And in electronic format too. I find that the shipping price for book stores is often more than the price of the book. I do most of my reading on an iphone anyway (busy life).

CFT, please tell me about the mysticism aspect. I feel like I'm entering new territory as far as the nature of negs and how to view them / deal with them. It surprises me a little that the experience and interaction could transform into a positive one. How can mysticism be applied to understanding these experiences?

I've often thought that any consciousness made by The Great Spirit (and I assume it's a benevolent deity), would not be left to implode in darkness. Surely there's a spark of the Source in every living being and would eventually be redeemed somehow. I imagine that most negs would be misguided creatures tortured by their own ignorance and mistakes. From a lofty enough perch, I guess they could even be viewed with pity and compassion. But from my limited perspective, part of me thinks of them like rabid dogs - sure they used to be someones pet, but now they are a dangerous menace.

[DarkChylde]

Hi DarkChylde, thanks for your reply. Had a look at "Kundalini and it's chakras" on Amazon, and it had a few poor reviews - people disagreeing with her info, including how many major chakras there are in fact and where they're located!

How odd , that's exactly how i got my 5th eye working - with the amusing little tale afore mentioned .
Kundalini plateaus are a very boring lull , everything comes to a halt , this book broke mine - i'd say i got my buck's worth of a bang.


Very interesting about your experience of broadcasting your thoughts! Makes me think of descriptions I've read regarding the afterlife, where deception is not possible because thoughts are mainly transparent (might be the 'higher' realms only, because I have read about deception being practiced in the astral).
After life had zilch to do with with what i was talking about , i was simply overriding my thoughts via telepathy onto ambient people from an over activated chakra.

[CFTraveler]

CFT, please tell me about the mysticism aspect. I feel like I'm entering new territory as far as the nature of negs and how to view them / deal with them. It surprises me a little that the experience and interaction could transform into a positive one. How can mysticism be applied to understanding these experiences? Look up Goetia. I'm not advocating anyone getting into anything (unless it's their thing) but the idea of these cosmic beings appearing to someone to test them with their demonic aspect is interesting and jibes with some of my experiences.
So when I say mysticism, I'm talking about a specific type of mysticism, besides the general mystical approach, which many of us here have, whether they realize it or not. :)

[ButterflyWoman]

BFW, when you went through the most difficult time of your awakening, was the pain you experienced mainly from the chaotic process, or did you experience neg activity as well?
All of the above, plus years of dissociated and suppressed pain, rage, frustration, and other negative emotions (I just come from that kind of family, sorry to say).


Do you astral project at all now
Occasionally. It's not something I seek out, generally speaking. I don't see or feel much need, but I was never into it in a big way, anyway. Most of the time it was not conscious and not deliberate. I can phase pretty much at will, but I mostly don't. There are more interesting ways to spend my time, because for me, the mystical stuff is just catalogued as more "stuff", and I've already been there and done that. My focus is elsewhere now.


do you experience neg thought forms or entities?
Never. They wouldn't bloody dare. Seriously.

You know how certain people around here are all on about how we create our own reality? That. I don't create that sort of thing any more, consciously or unconsciously. There WAS a time when I had nightmares more often than not, and many of those nightmares were shockingly vivid and nearly lucid, and they often involved demons and various other evils like Nazis and hired assassins pursing me and so forth. I was creating all of that, because of my state of mind. The material and/or astral is not that unlike dreaming, in that we create this, too, but it moves a lot more slowly than a dream (dreams are extremely fluid; the astral is more fluid than material, and the material is the slowest of all).


I wonder if someone who has had an awakening deals with negs differently.
They don't exist in my reality. That's about it. I'm sure they exist in other peoples' reality, and I recognise that and respect it, but in mine, well, been there, done that, not doing it any more.


The Great Spirit (and I assume it's a benevolent deity)
Define "benevolent". It's wholly contextual.

And here's another seed: Creation is Self-Creating, and therefore the Creator and the Creation are one and the same. (May not make sense now. As I said, it's a seed. Maybe it'll grow into something. Or not.)

[DarkChylde]

Look up Goetia.

......a glimpse of CF's dark side http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/raccoon/fire-raccoon-emoticon.gif (http://emoticoner.com/)

sorry couldn't resist .....tee hee hee
http://www.pic4ever.com/images/onion055.gif

[Energize]

I realise this thread is branching out a bit from the original topic in some ways, which was the risks of negative experiences/effects of astral projection, energy work and psychic development. I should probably start some separate threads to explore some of the topics raised in more depth, but I am really enjoying the conversations here and learning from you all, thank you.

DarkChylde, what is the "5th eye"? I had a quick hunt for it, but couldn't find a definition. Is it a separate chakra, or a more expanded third eye or something? Heh heh, after reading your post above I had the amusing image of going to the shops dressed in a black robe covered in runes, surrounded by 3 meter tall monsters. "Ah, be a sport and grab that bottle of chillies from the top shelf there?"

ButterflyWoman, are you saying that you have been able to somehow filter out negative influences in the astral, or is it that if you encounter negative spirits you are able to kind of brush it off? Why would a potential negative entity not dare mess with you?

CFTraveler, I did a little searching on Goetia, and it seemed centred arround invocation and evocation. Are you saying that maybe you somehow (unconsciously?) 'summoned' this entity (or it was done for you), in order to purge certain aspects of yourself?

[DarkChylde]

DarkChylde, what is the "5th eye"? I had a quick hunt for it, but couldn't find a definition. Is it a separate chakra, or a more expanded third eye or something?

In the book the Genieve says to take the Kundalini energy and circulate it within the cranium in certain form specific schematics , she then describes the signs/symptoms/sensations experienced when the 5th Eye opens "inside" the brain (which i felt word to word exactly as said to have been experienced) and then decided to proceed with the rest of the exercises.
I have no idea why she calls it the 5th eye (i doubt the number has anything to do with it) but its entirely separate for the traditional mid-forehead-3rd-eye/ajna chakra but maybe similar in designation that it's the face/optic plexus.
According to the author her Kundalini process was facilitated by ascended masters & most of the exercises aren't of her own invention , she makes no specific mention of exactly who these entities were and why they were involved in here Kundalini.
I also picked up how to activate the Bindu Chakra at the base of the skull above the nape in the same chapter and include it in the activation of the maxillary plexus .

I remember reading also how to sit in primary lotus of intention and have Shiva throw a divine lightening bolt at Sahasrara to incur its activation , my exact reaction at that was "WTH?!" ......:shock: so i decided to move onto the rest of the book.

[CFTraveler]

CFTraveler, I did a little searching on Goetia, and it seemed centred arround invocation and evocation. Are you saying that maybe you somehow (unconsciously?) 'summoned' this entity (or it was done for you), in order to purge certain aspects of yourself?
No. Goetic practitioners do, but I don't. What I was getting at is that sometimes these beings show up and when they do, it's to teach you a lesson. Aunt Clair has extensive knowledge on the subject, and one of the things she talks about is that when they are in 'season' (or you are in season, lol) they will appear in their demonic aspects. This means you're at some sort of developmental stage (aren't we all) and have a lesson to learn. You then recognize this need (of learning) and instead of being scared (the first lesson) ask them to show their angelic side and teach you the lesson you're supposed to learn, and learn it, without the fear and drama. I did this instinctively, and came through to the other side of it. I now tend to think that's what happened to me, given some of the aspects of what happened to me (which again, are personal, and won't go into here.)

[ButterflyWoman]

ButterflyWoman, are you saying that you have been able to somehow filter out negative influences in the astral, or is it that if you encounter negative spirits you are able to kind of brush it off? Why would a potential negative entity not dare mess with you?
The "wouldn't dare" was actually tongue-in-cheek. ;)

I'm saying that these things simply do not exist in my reality any more, at least, nowhere near me or anything I experience. I have no doubt that they can exist, have encountered them in various ways throughout my life, but not now. I don't have those kinds of nightmares now, sleeping, waking, in a trance, or in any other way. I've had enough baddies and meanies in my reality, and I don't create (allow) them any more. In my reality they do not exist. (A lot of things don't, in fact. This is the power of dissolving attachments and releasing beliefs.)

[Energize]

DC, jeeez, sounds quite technical. I've only just started on basic energy visualisations, heh heh. "Okay Shiva, chuck a bolt at my Shasrara, I'm wide open!" :tongue:
"Um, Higher Self? I'm only kidding about the Shiva thing okay?"
"Yeah Dude, I know that."
:-)

CFT, that's made it much clearer for me thanks. I'd sincerely like to think that all such negative interactions/entities have a bright side, but I'm still a bit dubious. I hope I don't have to deal with anything extreme in my explorations...but regardless, the pushing aside of fear and the request to reveal their angelic side does stand out to me. Thank you for sharing your experience.

BFW: Oh, okay, LOL! So it wasn't "Mmhm, dat's right, I gotch yo pain right here - come get some!" :whip:
I'm thinking of starting a new thread to ask you some specific questions about how your consciousness has changed since undergoing your experiences. Any idea what forum I should use to talk about such things? "Psychic/Spiritual Experiences & Development" maybe?

[ButterflyWoman]

Well, people can ask, but my reality is so far removed from the default one that almost everyone has that my answers mostly sound like wannabe Zen master babble.

I actually recommend you do a search on these forums for "sissies" (I'd do it for you, but my internet connection is super crappy slow at the moment). There's a thread around here, a very, very long one, with a title that's something like "Enlightenment (not for sissies)" or something along those lines. It'll take you considerable time to read through the entire thing, but I very much recommend it. It's quite... well... enlightening. A lot of the hostile reactions, the things that the one who was awakening had to say, a lot of other stuff. Very much worth the effort, but I don't recommend reading it all in one sitting. It's very, very long. ;)

[Energize]

Well, that is one of the most unlikely words I would have guessed I'd be searching for on this forum, but I found it here (http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/showthread.php?3003-Beyond-Enlightenment-Warning-Not-for-Sissies&highlight=sissies). Heh heh! Thanks BTW.

[eyeoneblack]

The "wouldn't dare" was actually tongue-in-cheek. ;)

I'm saying that these things simply do not exist in my reality any more, at least, nowhere near me or anything I experience. I have no doubt that they can exist, have encountered them in various ways throughout my life, but not now. I don't have those kinds of nightmares now, sleeping, waking, in a trance, or in any other way. I've had enough baddies and meanies in my reality, and I don't create (allow) them any more. In my reality they do not exist. (A lot of things don't, in fact. This is the power of dissolving attachments and releasing beliefs.)

And...

a title that's something like "Enlightenment (not for sissies)

Ditto on both counts!

I've noticed over the past several years that my reaction to a Real Life meanie is that whatever they say totally escapes me - just flies over (or under) me. The so-called assault on my person does not register.
I was asked a while back by a 'therapist' about having nightmares. I told her I would have go back 20+ years to find one. She wasn't interested in that, even though I would have described it, given a chance.

The "enlightenment not for sissies" is very much a part of it. Probably the only way to really get bullet-proof. But if you take it too far IRL people become offended. Everyone wants to be taken SERIOUSLY and I just don't really do that anymore.

But, like I said, I'll see that therapist again. :mrgreen:

[Energize]

That's kinda kool. Impervious! :)

Oddly enough, it's been many many years since I've had a nightmare too eyeoneblack.
If I had to guess, I'd say that at some stage, I had a lucid dream or something, and learned (or was taught?) that you don't need to let it affect you...or even have them. I've read somewhere that nightmares are just an urgent message from your unconscious mind. Perhaps it's just that nothing too urgent has been coming through. Steady as she goes Capt'n.

By the way, I'm 7 pages into that enlightenment thread. The concept is fascinating. I'll start a new thread shortly to ask questions, but in the meantime just let me say that it seems a bit bleak. While reading Thomas Campbell's "My Big TOE: Awakening", I've come across the concept of God being almost a 'thing', kind of mechanistic in a way (I'm not expressing it well, need more time). But the concept of no one being real, no love, nothing...seems a bit nihilistic, debilitating, devoid of hope. Either I'm not understanding it correctly yet, or my ego is writhing under the spotlight. A loveless God in an empty void playing with finger puppets? Aw man, what a bummer. But whatever the truth is - I guess it is what it is. Just not sure what it is yet.

Ironically, this morning I found myself extra aware - of my wife, my sons, of our dog. I felt very aware of them as conscious, sentient beings, and feeling love for them. Just an illusion? Just my ego clinging to the dream? Hmm, dunno.

[ButterflyWoman]

You need to realise this, and your ego is NOT going to like it.

It's not about your ego. It's not about what your ego does or does not do. In fact, this entire process is subtractive, it takes AWAY from your ego. You ego right now is all, "hot damn, I'm gonna get enlightened!" or whatever, but that's actually impossible. It'd be like a cartoon drawing grabbing a pencil and erasing bits of itself and redrawing them. It's not possible. Ego wants to pretend it's doing this or that or the other, but it isn't. It may be aware of all sorts of things, sure, and sometimes those awarenesses make the process easier because ego doesn't freak right the heck out or it's more willing to go along with the program, but ego is no more in change than the cartoon character is.

So all this worry about clinging to this or releasing that... It's just ego trying to do something (or not do something) it has no power to do or not do. Ego can be a very entertaining thing to watch, so full of big ideas and brilliant plans. Like a little kid with a toy steering wheel, pretending to be driving the car, maybe even believing they're driving the car....

;)

[Energize]

Thanks BFW.
Because I've found this subject so fascinating, I've started a new thread about awakening, here (http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/showthread.php?15837-Extreme-sports-Awakening).