The reason good and evil exist...

[Reav3R]

Greetings,

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In this thread, I want to go ahead and try to explain the reason good and evil exist. What I say is based solely on what I think and comprehend. In other words, this is what I think and therefore I have no source/evidence/etc.

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The universe is made of pairs; contradictions some might say. Modern science has proven that almost anything in our physical world is made of two parts; from living beings to electric charge. But why eveything has to have an opposite? Why is there positive and negative energy? Why good and evil exist? The answer is balance; pairs exist in order to achieve balance.

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In order for a scale to maintain balance, two opposite objects (opposite because they're placed on two hands of the scale) with same value (weight in this case) are required. That's the case with everything! Without balance, universe will collapse. Nothing is stable without balance.

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Imagine the whole universe as a huge scale. It "has" to maintain balance to survive; without balance it will collapse. What does it need? It needs to create pairs so they can provide balance! Negativity is there to balance out positivity. Evil exists to balance out good. Simple as that!

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Light has no meaning without darkness, without chaos there is no order. That pretty much sums it out. There is no alternative. It is impossible to gain balance with on object "alone" on a scale. Stability lies in the hands of balance and balance is made of pairs.

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Best Regards,
Reav3R

[SiriusTraveler]

Well I'd like to quote Robert Monroe here. He found this out during his most profound OBE's in which he found a highly evolved entity which he connected with. This to is my opinion on how i FEEL it is.

There is no good, there is no evil,
There is only expression.

The whole message read like this though:

We know this well. It can be said in your words.
There is no beginning, there is no end,
There is only change.
There is no teacher, there is no student,
There is only remembering.
There is no good, there is no evil,
There is only expression.
There is no union, there is no sharing,
There is only one.
There is no joy, there is no sadness,
There is only love.
There is no greater, there is no lesser,
There is only balance.
There is no stasis, there is no entropy,
There is only motion.
There is no wakefulness, there is no sleep,
There is only being.
There is no limit, there is no chance,
There is only a plan.
This is as we know it to be.

Edit:
Ok, I'll try to elaborate but forgive me if it sounds confusing.
If I think of that there is only expresion I think of it as we express ourselves in various ways as we are ever changing, because thats what the soul does. It changes, experiences and becomes more complete by experiencing an infinite variety of possibilities. So if I were to kill someone that would not be evil IMO, it would be an expression. It would feel horrible, but I cannot think of it in terms of evil.
So then I think that evil is a word and an expression of something that doesn't feel good and really bad to most of us humans. An expresion of a feeling you could say, that we have adopted.

I think that the things you write about balance (light and dark, chaos and order etc.) are things that have to do with our focus in 3 dimensional reality. These things can be real to a great extent here in this reality that we are focused in right now.
An illusion based on our beliefs and on our focus here in this dimension, and also because of the need for expression. That doesn't necessarily make it so in other dimensions and realities.

[Reav3R]

Well said Sirius, and thanks for the meaningful quote. While it makes a lot of sense and is supposed to be from a highly advanced being, it doesn't change the fact that "different" expressions do exist.

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I used the word pair excessively to convey this meaning. What we know as good and evil might be an illusion but the fact that they're not the same and often opposite is not. The fact that universe is made of contradictions and diferences is not an illusion: "There is motion and change". So what reason could be for this?

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In order to have motion, change and plan we need point A and point B; these two can't be the same so in essence we need difference. And difference can make pairs and opposites. See my point? If balance is an illusion then the whole "big picture" would be utterly meaningless. What reason is there for difference if not balance?

[SiriusTraveler]

Oh darn, I wrote that wrong.. balance is no illusion. I take that back, offcource :)

Well, the reason for motion and change as I see it is because of the constant evolving nature of the universe/multiverse/everything/god etc. Thats what everything does, it evolves. Our soul evolves through this current experience and so does God/All that is. It feels like motion and change = evolution/becomming more complete/the nature of god. As I see it at least.

Suffice to say, I get you original post.

[Reav3R]

What you say is so meaningful and teaching but you're not providing enough information related to my point in order to agree or disagree with me.

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We have motion because universe is evolving, yes but it needs to be stable first in order to continue evolving and for that it needs balance. Being an illusion doesn't mean two things are the same.

[SiriusTraveler]

But in what way do you mean the universe becomes stable? And are you talking about our current 3 dimensional reality we are experiencing?

Im thinking that balance just is, it always is and it always has been.

Edit: Again sorry, I need to read first without posting :)

Then I guess I can aggree with you on some points. If I think of balance as a property of "All That Is" then that balance is maintaned by the things you describe (chaos and order, light and dark) but some of these things are false as in I don't think they exist as a property of something at all, but are just illisions of our 3 dimensional focus (like good and evil). Do you get what I'm saying here?
Im not such a good explainer :)

[Korpo]

The Universe, however, seems not to be a scale. I would say the analogy falls short.

Similarly, a balance of two things is not the middle or one of identical quality. A scale can be balanced if a large mass is on one side and a very small mass is on the other if the length of the arms differ.

Having said this, a state of balance can exist between extreme disparities in quantity even in the scale example.

To take it further, I don't think evil is a full opposite of good. Evil in my view could be the absence of good, which is not a thing in itself, just as darkness is not a thing, but light is. Light is a particle/wave while darkness is its absence. This is no dualism, because there are no two things - there's a thing and its absence. You can measure the amount of light, but you cannot measure its absence. You can take a light source into a room, but there's no source of darkness that could do the same. You could argue (logically, not physically) that there was darkness in the room before the light arrived and after it went, but that would imply that darkness has no source and again would not be the opposite of light.

Having said that, also the light analogy falls short, as I would think that evil is resistance to being good. Evil is in my opinion an act of will, a misguided and misinformed approach to reality. It is not the complement to the nature of good, it's going against the very grain of the Universe itself.

Similarly, I would not equate chaos and evil. Nor is order inherently good. They are without any moral implication.

From my point of view these are illegitimate inferences and transferences, where attributes present in one thing are simply assumed to have this and that opposite. Similarly it is assumed that because one pair of things has properties these transfer to another wholly different pair of things. These are logical fallacies or pitfalls.

As you see from my short remarks, another worldview as mine can as easily exist on similar observations yet be fundamentally different if you followed my implications. The thing is you can not disprove my worldview or prove your own since both are based on observations and inferrences which are not provable. Similarly I can comment on your observations but not prove you wrong or myself right. If logic could explain these things to satisfaction, I'd tend to think it already would have.

[Reav3R]

But in what way do you mean the universe becomes stable? And are you talking about our current 3 dimensional reality we are experiencing?


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By stable I mean exist. If there is no balance, there is no meaning (already said why) and if there's no meaning, there's no existance (should I explain why?). Simple as that. I don't mean the physical, I mean the whole universe. In order to "exist", it needs "balance".


The Universe, however, seems not to be a scale. I would say the analogy falls short.

Similarly, a balance of two things is not the middle or one of identical quality. A scale can be balanced if a large mass is on one side and a very small mass is on the other if the length of the arms differ.

Having said this, a state of balance can exist between extreme disparities in quantity even in the scale example.


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I think you misunderstood my point. I agree with what you say. What I mean is that in order to get balance, we need "difference", be it duality, trinity or anything. It just can't be one...

[Korpo]

PS - the subject of the thread is "The reason good and evil exist... ". In response to that I want to add:

Good and evil exist because there's free will to chose between them. Good and evil however exist only in relation to a system of values. Whether they ultimately exist in some independent manner within the fabric of the Universe would be certainly worth pondering.

[SiriusTraveler]

I have to aggree on most parts with Korpo here. Its to bad I can only think these things myself and not formulate them into words. Im not such a good explainer.


This is no dualism, because there are no two things - there's a thing and its absence.
But this can still be qualities of balance in my opinion. As balance, perhaps, is that amongst other things.

[Korpo]

Sirius, I agree, but the quality of the statements "Good and evil are dual opposites." and "Evil is the absence of good." and "Evil is willful resistance against being good." is fundamentally different, especially in the implications people would take away from them.

[Reav3R]

PS - the subject of the thread is "The reason good and evil exist... ". In response to that I want to add:

Good and evil exist because there's free will to chose between them. Good and evil however exist only in relation to a system of values. Whether they ultimately exist in some independent manner within the fabric of the Universe would be certainly worth pondering.

Now this is what I have to disagree (but not disprove; obviously) with. I believe what we know as "free will" is an illusion. If parallel universes exist then we're experiencing "all" of the different possibilities simultaniously.

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The only choice we have is this: which of the many possibilites we want to experience with our current conciousness. Nothing more. I also believe the time itself is an illusion too (can't explain because I'm using my cellphone and the explanation fills a book).

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The only thing that exists is existance itself and existance itself needs balance. Difference is required for balance. Beyond that, everything is an illusion...

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"Good and evil are dual opposites." and "Evil is the absence of good." and "Evil is willful resistance against being good."

Totally disagree with all three.

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Good and evil are "not the same" and they exist because universe needs difference in order to achieve balance and continue its existance.

[SiriusTraveler]

Well the evil - good thing I have explained what I think about, that they are just illusions based on our need for expresion.


Now this is what I have to disagree (but not disprove; obviously) with. I believe what we know as "free will" is an illusion. If parallel universes exist then we're experiencing "all" of the different possibilities simultaniously.
I believe that free will exists to this degree, also written about in "Seth Speaks: Eternal Validity of The Soul": Everyone is here and now, in this reality, but also in an infinite number of other realities. These work together, the soul experiences these simultaneously. Imagine that our thoughts stream into these other realities we are not experiencing so that the other you perhaps dreams or gets a sudden hunch of something. That you can then chose to act uppon that dream or hunch. That is what free will is IMO, that we have infinite variety of choises that somehow, in a wierd way, is limited. that which we don't do in this one personality, the other you's do in the other ones. So that the soul can get the total sum of these as one experience.

Ok, that didnt have anything to do with your original post, but I snusk this in there anyway.

[Reav3R]

Yes we have "free" will to some degree but it's just not as "free" as 99.9% of us think. This is not absolute freedom...

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My theory on this subject is worth another topic on itself which I don't feel like posting today because I'm (always) using my cellphone. :D

[IA56]

WoW...this is a difficult subject. It is so big that I only can say...to be able to face evil you have to go or find a place in you that do not be affected by emotions...I have this place but it have scared me so much because I am afraid if I spend too much time in this place in me I soon do not feel anything, I know somehow feelings do not dissapare, but it did frighten me a lot...

Evil in my book is to be afraid total fear and it is a survival skill...

[Reav3R]

WoW...this is a difficult subject. It is so big that I only can say...to be able to face evil you have to go or find a place in you that do not be affected by emotions...I have this place but it have scared me so much because I am afraid if I spend too much time in this place in me I soon do not feel anything, I know somehow feelings do not dissapare, but it did frighten me a lot...

Evil in my book is to be afraid total fear and it is a survival skill...

Have you read my first post?! Because this wasn't a question (again :D) and I fail to see the relevance between what you say and what I said. :S

[IA56]

Have you read my first post?! Because this wasn't a question (again :D) and I fail to see the relevance between what you say and what I said. :S


Sorry, No I did not read your first post, I will now...I did only react inside of me and where I am now...sorry

[IA56]

Yes, in one level this is to be as you say, but there are so many layers upon this so it depends from what view you express you from...in duality this is this way, but then when you leave the dual worlds it does not be this truth and in the non-dual worlds have other scales so to speak and work´s from other law´s.





Greetings,

*
In this thread, I want to go ahead and try to explain the reason good and evil exist. What I say is based solely on what I think and comprehend. In other words, this is what I think and therefore I have no source/evidence/etc.

*
The universe is made of pairs; contradictions some might say. Modern science has proven that almost anything in our physical world is made of two parts; from living beings to electric charge. But why eveything has to have an opposite? Why is there positive and negative energy? Why good and evil exist? The answer is balance; pairs exist in order to achieve balance.

*
In order for a scale to maintain balance, two opposite objects (opposite because they're placed on two hands of the scale) with same value (weight in this case) are required. That's the case with everything! Without balance, universe will collapse. Nothing is stable without balance.

*
Imagine the whole universe as a huge scale. It "has" to maintain balance to survive; without balance it will collapse. What does it need? It needs to create pairs so they can provide balance! Negativity is there to balance out positivity. Evil exists to balance out good. Simple as that!

*
Light has no meaning without darkness, without chaos there is no order. That pretty much sums it out. There is no alternative. It is impossible to gain balance with on object "alone" on a scale. Stability lies in the hands of balance and balance is made of pairs.

*
Best Regards,
Reav3R

[SiriusTraveler]

I can try to sum up my thoughts about this, and note that this what I believe.

The reason good and evil exists is, amongst other things, because we as humans wants to put labels on certain experiences. It does not exists because of the property balance. The thing that exists is instead expresion. The need for expresion is something that is needed for everything to evolve. Everything expresses itself in infinite variety of ways and so some things got labeled good and evil because we expressed it in this 3 dimensional focus we are in at the moment. When we leave this experience we will see that good and evil does not exists in the way we think it does now.

Perhaps thats finally an answers to the original posters discussion for my part :)

[SiriusTraveler]

Also have to say that its a very interesting discussion!

[Reav3R]

Yes, in one level this is to be as you say, but there are so many layers upon this so it depends from what view you express you from...in duality this is this way, but then when you leave the dual worlds it does not be this truth and in the non-dual worlds have other scales so to speak and work0…7s from other law0…7s.

Again I'd like to clarify that duality was just an example I provided. I don't mean that "eveything" (outside of physical included) is made of two absolute opposites. I think you haven't read the rest of the posts after the first. :D But anyway... thanks for sharing your idea.

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I can try to sum up my thoughts about this, and note that this what I believe.

The reason good and evil exists is, amongst other things, because we as humans wants to put labels on certain experiences. It does not exists because of the property balance. The thing that exists is instead expresion. The need for expresion is something that is needed for everything to evolve. Everything expresses itself in infinite variety of ways and so some things got labeled good and evil because we expressed it in this 3 dimensional focus we are in at the moment. When we leave this experience we will see that good and evil does not exists in the way we think it does now.

Perhaps thats finally an answers to the original posters discussion for my part :)

Thank you for sharing your idea.

[CFTraveler]

I came on to this subject late- I had some initial thoughts but I see the conversation has evolved, so I'll keep them to myself.

[Reav3R]

I came on to this subject late- I had some initial thoughts but I see the conversation has evolved, so I'll keep them to myself.

Why don't you share them with us and participate in the discussion? Worst that could happens is disagreement which is not bad (because it leads to more ideas). :)

[CFTraveler]

Sure. I just didn't want to 'bust in' with my opinions/ideas.
Back to the initial premise:

The universe is made of pairs; contradictions some might say. Modern science has proven that almost anything in our physical world is made of two parts; from living beings to electric charge. But why eveything has to have an opposite? Why is there positive and negative energy? Why good and evil exist? The answer is balance; pairs exist in order to achieve balance.
-The universe is not made of pairs. We tend to polarize everything (that is, evenly divide them because of our language tendencies) and mistakenly think that everything is made of two, but two is only a way one thing can be divided. Anything can be segmented in many ways, the poles are only the extremes of the one thing. It's a matter of perspective.
Electricity is simply electrons moving from one atom to another (electric flow). Once an atom loses an electron it's called 'positive' (you could call it yellow, for example, and get a completely different mental picture of current) and pulls electrons out of the next atom, and so on until they all get reassigned and balance is achieved. But the act of removing the electron and putting it on that there atom (in the battery poles, for example) is a deliberate act of division, and the natural counterpart is a lot more chaotic. So for example, a bunch of electrons getting knocked off a bunch of atoms by friction (like lightning, for example) and resulting in a big thunderbolt is a lot less 'evenly divided'. So once again, we take an atom, take the electron away and leave protons and neutrons unbalanced doesn't make it 'evenly divided', it makes it unstable. The assignment of polarity is a human mental construct. Wow that was long.



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In order for a scale to maintain balance, two opposite objects (opposite because they're placed on two hands of the scale) with same value (weight in this case) are required. That's the case with everything! Without balance, universe will collapse. Nothing is stable without balance.- This is probably true from a physical standpoint- there is at least one theory that postulates this in cosmology, and there evolutionary theory postulates a similar theory (entropy vs. evolution=reality).



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Imagine the whole universe as a huge scale. It "has" to maintain balance to survive; without balance it will collapse. What does it need? It needs to create pairs so they can provide balance! Negativity is there to balance out positivity. Evil exists to balance out good. Simple as that!- No, I don't agree here. This is because we have arbitrarily decided that evil is the opposite of good (we assign opposite value to something that is conceptual). But in reality both concepts of good and evil are culturally based, and my good may be your evil, if we have different backgrounds, so the 'polar opposite' theory is just that, a way to assign equal and opposite value to any two expressions of the same thing (color, emotion, circumstance) in accordance to our personal belief- and pit it against itself. Is this valuable? Yes, when this type of conceptualization is used to transmute a less desirable quality to a more desirable one. But it can also be dangerous, when we try to turn this assignment into a 'law' or 'rule'- rules of morality are a good example of this. When you decide something is 'bad' and make rules agaisnt it, black and white thinking results, and that is not a good thing most of the time.
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Light has no meaning without darkness, without chaos there is no order. That pretty much sums it out. There is no alternative. It is impossible to gain balance with on object "alone" on a scale. Stability lies in the hands of balance and balance is made of pairs.- I think you hit the nail on the head with the first concept, but disagree with the conclusion. Polarization is our way of making sense of the world, but it's not a 'truth'- polar opposites exist but it is not the only things that exist, and meaning is given by the experiencer. We need darkness to appreciate the light, but meaning is only given to it by the observer, it is not an inherent or necessary. Chaos is something that I don't think really exists, I think pattern can always be found in what looks like chaos- but that is my belief. Order is also something we assign, and we have to be there to see or create order.
I think there is no scale to begin with. We create the scale and then look at the universe from it's perspective. Our ability to divide the world as 'inside' and 'outside' gives us the language of division, and we categorize the world in opposites. They have to complement each other because they were one (are one) and we divided them equally in the first place.

Once again, with a few exceptions (such as the language or electricity things) most of what I wrote is my opinion and perspective. Your mileage may vary.

[Reav3R]

Thank you for your long and thorough explanation but I've already answered all the points you've made.

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Still I think what you just said is a more relevant question (language!!!!) to my answers. Sorry for confusion!

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Anyway to sum it up, I do NOT Say that everything is made of pairs, I just made an example. What I say is this:

Good and evil exist because they're not "the same" and universe needs difference to continue existing. Some call it good, some call it virtue. Call it whatever you like.

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My point is that they're not the same. Universe (the whole) is made of difference not pairs...

[CFTraveler]

Thank you for your long and thorough explanation but I've already answered all the points you've made.

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Still I think what you just said is a more relevant question (language!!!!) to my answers. Sorry for confusion!

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Anyway to sum it up, I do NOT Say that everything is made of pairs, I just made an example. What I say is this:

Good and evil exist because they're not "the same" and universe needs difference to continue existing. Some call it good, some call it virtue. Call it whatever you like.

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My point is that they're not the same. Universe (the whole) is made of difference not pairs... It's why I was reluctant to post the whole thing, but I had to express myself linearly. I tend to want to explain why I come to the conclusions I come to.
I agree with the point- we divide because we exist, we perceive because we exist, it's just a side effect of having a point of view, and if the notion of existence being a consequence of consciousness is true, then it just has to be that way.

[Reav3R]

As a side note: I usually twist the language deliberately to first create an artistic reading and second subcounciously invoke others hidden feeling on the subject. I also tend to write in different colors (the reason is irrelevent) but I can't do that with cellphone.

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For instance I used the word "pair" excessively but taking the description into account and combining it with the word "opposite", I wanted to put emphesize on "difference" not duality (which I later said). I just wanted to see if others can point it out or no...

[CFTraveler]

Well, you have to realize that 'duality' and 'polarity' are amazingly entrenched in most western society, even in metaphysics. Which is why I went on my rant.

[dreaming90]

I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon.
The Buddha

[Reav3R]

The Buddha

I fail to see how your quote is relevent...

[CFTraveler]

Right and Wrong are expressions of duality, the dragon changes as it writhes. The Buddha got it.

[IA56]

:thumbsup:

[Sinera]

I admit to only have read the initial post and it immediately makes me think of this:

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl201/images/philosophy_as_quest/yin_yang_small.gif

[IA56]

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I think you misunderstood my point. I agree with what you say. What I mean is that in order to get balance, we need "difference", be it duality, trinity or anything. It just can't be one...

Well, I again do react without reading the whole thread, so I hope it is okay.
My experience of what I call dividerline where the JHWH did meet me up, and I could so clear feel the line between where we incarnate and what I call "home" where I will become all with the ONE and in there is everything but not as in duality but all is there in other existence then as you say in pairs....but in ONE and there is total balance without pairs.
I have no word´s to express it but I think this is the nearest I can express it .

[Reav3R]

Well, I again do react without reading the whole thread, so I hope it is okay.
My experience of what I call dividerline where the JHWH did meet me up, and I could so clear feel the line between where we incarnate and what I call "home" where I will become all with the ONE and in there is everything but not as in duality but all is there in other existence then as you say in pairs....but in ONE and there is total balance without pairs.
I have no word´s to express it but I think this is the nearest I can express it .

God/source con "created" the universe, beyond that it is unthinkable. God is self aware so he can think, if he can think and he can create then he IS difference, so he IS balance. Is what I say confusing?

[dreaming90]

Right and Wrong are expressions of duality, the dragon changes as it writhes. The Buddha got it.
Right. Dualistic thinking divides actions into "right" and "wrong." There is no objective law on what is right and wrong-- we make it up as we go, often with poor consequences.

I admit to only have read the initial post and it immediately makes me think of this:

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl201/images/philosophy_as_quest/yin_yang_small.gif
Lao Tzu understood the problem of dualistic thinking as well. :)

Robert Bruce wrote an article on this issue of good and evil, I believe it's available for reading right on the front page of AD. He uses the illustration of a child being eaten by a tiger-- from the human's perspective, the tiger is "evil" for doing such a thing, but from the Tiger's perspective, it was a much-needed meal for its hungry cubs. Where is the evil?

[Reav3R]

Again I have to say that I myself do NOT think dualistic. I believe in difference...

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In other words, balance is made of "difference". As long as there is more than "one", balance can be gained. God had conciousness so "there was" more than "one". Sorry for uber confusion again, couldn't have said easier.

[IA56]

God/source con "created" the universe, beyond that it is unthinkable. God is self aware so he can think, if he can think and he can create then he IS difference, so he IS balance. Is what I say confusing?

Well, yes little bit confusing it is, but okay, so he is balance, yes, and this is very confusing because I can´t express it what it is, so if you try to express this then you got my attention.....please go on with this what you call difference once more with other word´s if you have.

[IA56]

Again I have to say that I myself do NOT think dualistic. I believe in difference...

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In other words, balance is made of "difference". As long as there is more than "one", balance can be gained. God had conciousness so "there was" more than "one". Sorry for uber confusion again, couldn't have said easier.

Can it be that there is the polarities, the plus world and the minus world, and you can choose between them to live in?? is this the free will ??

As i understand that the God is both polarities and it is why death occures, and I see it as a good force, for example that you do not have to live in one form more than a sertain time, it would be very hars to have to live rest of your life in one form so to speak or in one "hard" life where you suffer a lot.

[ButterflyWoman]

In my experience, observation, and reflection, the question, itself, is deeply flawed, because it assumes that "good" and "evil" DO, in fact, exist. Context, however, is everything.


Right and Wrong are expressions of duality, the dragon changes as it writhes. The Buddha got it.
Yes. This.

[Reav3R]

Can it be that there is the polarities, the plus world and the minus world, and you can choose between them to live in?? is this the free will ??


I don't think polarity/duality could "exist". Free will is an illusion manifested by conciousness, the meaning itself is flawed. Everything is made of difference which is maintaining balance. There are infinite variety of consequences, all experienced at the same time by soul. Think of your "current" conciousness as a thread of a multicoe CPU. Functioning independently but it is actually part of a whole without realizing so it can play against itself (AI Vs. AI)... (confusing again?)

[IA56]

I don't think polarity/duality could "exist". Free will is an illusion manifested by conciousness, the meaning itself is flawed. Everything is made of difference which is maintaining balance. There are infinite variety of consequences, all experienced at the same time by soul. Think of your "current" conciousness as a thread of a multicoe CPU. Functioning independently but it is actually part of a whole without realizing so it can play against itself (AI Vs. AI)... (confusing again?)

No not at all confusing, I was feeling it like this about the infinity or the ONE..and when it was said to me, NO ONE can go wrong, it only take´s different time for each of us to wake up and find the way home, there is no wrong path´s...and then I felt when it was said...that I was not ready yet to come home throug the gate...I felt that my ego was not ready to give up the singularity so to speak....and yes, we fight against us self´s and our own cruelty and blame other´s when we can´t take responsibillity..