Fear as driving force...

[Reav3R]

Greetings,

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There could be many causes for a spontanous projection, such as excitement and extreme emotions. And spontanous projection, hence the name, is often instant and without the need for relaxtion/trance and other stuff.

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As we know, fear is one our prime senses and is pretty easy to induce. It is also an emotion. Fear will eventualy turn into physical excitement and takes over the mind and body which would make a perfect condition for spontanous projection.

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So here's the question: Can a panic episode be deliberately triggered to achieve an OBE? Can extreme fear be used to force the astral body out?

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Best Regards,
Reav3R

[CFTraveler]

I'm sure it can, but once again, there are more fun methods. Like the old 'hitting your toe with a hammer to get rid of a headache' thing, when there are less painful ways.

[Reav3R]

Is there any consequence?

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I mean you certainly know that you faked the fear but your subcon doesn't. So it can potentially act out on the fear and manifest its source (a monster i.e.) which could as a result affect the experience.

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Anyway... I'd (basically) like to know the pros and cons to this method.

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Has anyone here ever tried this?!

[ButterflyWoman]

I spent years trying to rid myself of fear and panic/anxiety disorder. I cannot imagine why anyone would want to induce such a thing, for any purpose. To me, it would be like cleaning your teeth with a dagger, or deliberately making yourself sick in order to lose weight. It migh work, but why would you want to do it that way?

[Frater.Akenu]

Is there any consequence?

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I mean you certainly know that you faked the fear but your subcon doesn't. So it can potentially act out on the fear and manifest its source (a monster i.e.) which could as a result affect the experience.

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Anyway... I'd (basically) like to know the pros and cons to this method.

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Has anyone here ever tried this?!

There are actually a couple of things that could go wrong.
First of all, implanting fear into your subconsciousness will make you to lose control over it, you never know when such strong fear could manifest and throw you out of your body, in certain cases this situation could be very, very dangerous.
Next thing is that such a strong fear that throws you out of your body really exists, but it is usually fear that the person feels, it's a sort of defense mechanism and it is there for a purpose. If you plant such fear into your sub-c you risk that this fear will follow you into the astral plane, I would also guess that the most common outcome of this would be demonic possession (in this case it would be a fear manifested into demonic form).

And most importantly, your fears are the only thing that can actually harm you in Astral, I usually advice people to do the opposite thing, to get rid of their fears before they go projecting around.

[Reav3R]

Yes, what you say is true. I think I may have misrepresented my idea by taking a direct route. It's not my entire idea to just deliberately induce an extreme fear then wait for an exit and hope for a happy OBE (rinse and repeat).

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I agree that fear is, as a defence mechanism, there for a purpose. But it is essentially an emotion. "Pure" fear alone isn't based on any logic and is just a mere sense. And like you said, fear is the only thing that can do harm. Also, fear is internal so the worst kind of fear (nightmare) has to come from sub-con (because it "knows" the worst fear).

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My idea is like taking a vaccine; deliberately injecting yourself with a virus, in order to gain resistance/immunity. The more you watch horror movies, the less you are terrified by them.

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When an accident is so terrible that causes a mental breakdown, mind (sub-con) has the ability to trigger an associated (often extreme) defence mechanism (such as amnesia) to deal with the subject. Now combine a vaccine with a breakdown and you'll get fear immunity.

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Hulk says: "Wanna know how I avoid getting angry? I'm always angry!". If you feel pain in your arm and cut it. You can't feel pain anymore because you no longer have the means (your arm) to do so. If you constantly smell a perfume for an hour, your body gets used to it and won't feel it anymore. The examples go on...

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And the last thing to clarify is "the" fear (the kind I mean). Imagine your worst nightmares, horrifying demons alongside sickness (and divorce and death and ...) and make them real. The type of fear that can make you forget your name (not literally). In trance state (and dream), emotions can buildup easily. Make the word "fear" come alive.

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Now what I'm saying is to devour the fear, to feel it take over and to become it. By experiencing the worst type of fear, you know that there's no worse and by surviving it you know that you can take it. If you can take the worst kind of fear then fear becomes meaningless. By constantly staying in fear, you can't become terrified because you already are (and you realize that it can't destroy/kill you so it becomes meaningless). By deliberately injecting yourself with fear, you increase your resistance (and the conclusions go on...).

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I hope I made my point clear because I can't explain my idea better than this...I wasn't actually hoping for an answer. I'm looking to know your ideas on this. I thought presenting my idea alongside a questions works better...

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Best Regards,
Reav3R

[heliac]

My idea is like taking a vaccine; deliberately injecting yourself with a virus, in order to gain resistance/immunity. The more you watch horror movies, the less you are terrified by them.

I think i get you here. you want to habituate yourself to fearful experiences over time. This makes a lot of sense all though i would advise starting small and building your way up in intensity of the experience. Confronting/overcoming fears will help with projection as well as a host of other things in general. i would also advise, once you get there, and if this is your cup of tea, to get to know your body's reaction to the fear of death by doing safe but "dangerous" activities. Things like roller coasters, sky diving, rock climbing/rappelling, bungee jumping. Depending on how you are your body may react similarly to an OBE. i get the feeling during OBEs your body at times thinks it is dying. The intense fear associated to the OBE is similar to a death experience.
Some people don't get too much fear at all from OBEing though. Also, one thing to note. Don't assume that by increasing the frequency of exposing yourself to fearful experiences you will automatically become braver. Take note of what you learned about yourself during the fearful experience.



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When an accident is so terrible that causes a mental breakdown, mind (sub-con) has the ability to trigger an associated (often extreme) defence mechanism (such as amnesia) to deal with the subject. Now combine a vaccine with a breakdown and you'll get fear immunity.

This hasn't been my experience with fear at all. Fear is like an adhesive, you remember things quite detailed surrounding the event.Having a bit of fear is great for recall and memory download. Having a major fearful experience is also great for recall, but just horrible to have.On the other hand there are additional powerful emotions that are great for recall, love, ecstasy, joy, etc...
It makes sense to remember things better surrounding a fearful experience in that as a defense mechanism you will want to remember what to avoid/confront in the future. If you are constantly forgetting fearful experiences what is stopping them from occurring over and over and over...



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Hulk says: "Wanna know how I avoid getting angry? I'm always angry!". If you feel pain in your arm and cut it. You can't feel pain anymore because you no longer have the means (your arm) to do so. If you constantly smell a perfume for an hour, your body gets used to it and won't feel it anymore. The examples go on...

Fear is a great teacher. Please be careful that you are not numbing yourself from fear instead of learning from it.



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And the last thing to clarify is "the" fear (the kind I mean). Imagine your worst nightmares, horrifying demons alongside sickness (and divorce and death and ...) and make them real. The type of fear that can make you forget your name (not literally). In trance state (and dream), emotions can buildup easily. Make the word "fear" come alive.

I guess this is possible if you have a really good imagination. It is nice to do this sort of thing with positive emotions too.



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Now what I'm saying is to devour the fear, to feel it take over and to become it. By experiencing the worst type of fear, you know that there's no worse and by surviving it you know that you can take it. If you can take the worst kind of fear then fear becomes meaningless. By constantly staying in fear, you can't become terrified because you already are (and you realize that it can't destroy/kill you so it becomes meaningless). By deliberately injecting yourself with fear, you increase your resistance (and the conclusions go on...).

You either are terrified or you are not or you have mixed feelings. If you are constantly in a state of fear, you are going to be a fearful person, not someone who can manage or own it.

[ButterflyWoman]

Imagine your worst nightmares, horrifying demons alongside sickness (and divorce and death and ...) and make them real.
I don't have to imagine that. I've gone through a period of transformation so profound that it DID include pretty much EVERYTHING I was afraid of. Death, divorce, loss of family, loss of sanity, poverty, you name it.

As I said, I cannot imagine wanting or intending to induce such a state. I experienced it in material reality because of the anger and fear and other stuff I had in my subconscious (it's more in-depth than that, but that's it in a nutshell).

My very real experience with fear is that it is extremely powerful, that it can and does shape your reality in major ways, and that it is nearly impossible to control. As I wrote, I spent years shedding it, and learning how to live without it. I don't recommend using fear (or anger, for that matter) for any purpose. It's too volatile.

I do, however, want to express my gratitude for this thread. In considering this, I have seen the answer to a question that has been in my mind for a while. So, thank you. :)

[heliac]

I don't have to imagine that. I've gone through a period of transformation so profound that it DID include pretty much EVERYTHING I was afraid of. Death, divorce, loss of family, loss of sanity, poverty, you name it.

As I said, I cannot imagine wanting or intending to induce such a state. I experienced it in material reality because of the anger and fear and other stuff I had in my subconscious (it's more in-depth than that, but that's it in a nutshell).

My very real experience with fear is that it is extremely powerful, that it can and does shape your reality in major ways, and that it is nearly impossible to control. As I wrote, I spent years shedding it, and learning how to live without it. I don't recommend using fear (or anger, for that matter) for any purpose. It's too volatile.

I do, however, want to express my gratitude for this thread. In considering this, I have seen the answer to a question that has been in my mind for a while. So, thank you. :)


Yea i agree looking for divorce, death, loss of sanity doesn't sound like a good idea.

Reav3R (http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/member.php?6039-Reav3R),


If you are aware of fears that are holding you back from projecting it may be worth it to confront them. Although going out of your way to impose extreme mental stress on yourself doesn't sound like too good of an idea. It sounds self defeating and is not the same as overcoming an unwanted fear through controlled exposure.

[ButterflyWoman]

If you are aware of fears that are holding you back from projecting it may be worth it to confront them.
Agreed. Find them, accept them for what they are, and release them. Generally, once you acknowledge a fear, you see it for what it is and it will start to dissolve.

[Frater.Akenu]

Reav3r: The case stands, implanting the fear into your sub-c is very dangerous thing to do. If you want to make resistance to fears send me a pm and I will tell you how to do it, but basically what you want to achieve is learn "TO DARE", one of the qualities of sphinx. You can never really get resistance for any kind of fear, new types are created every now and then, but after learning TO DARE, you will learn how to easily overcome any situation when it arrives (you won't panic)

[ButterflyWoman]

Frater.Akenu, I'm sending you a PM. I'm not very bound by fear any more, but I'd like to know more. :)

[CFTraveler]

And when he replies, I'd like a copy.
Or, if it's appropriate to do so, (Akenu) you can write something about it in the Mysticism forum, if for public consumption.

[ButterflyWoman]

Or, if it's appropriate to do so, (Akenu) you can write something about it in the Mysticism forum, if for public consumption.
That'd be excellent.

[Frater.Akenu]

Actually I would like to avoid posting this publicly, I hope ButterflyWoman now understands why :)

[ButterflyWoman]

I do. And good call. ;)

[Reav3R]

Actually I would like to avoid posting this publicly, I hope ButterflyWoman now understands why :)

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Did you tell her something different than what you told me?


I do. And good call. ;)

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I don't... And I'm kinda confused. Was the formula something special or secret? I don't think I quite get the point. Could one of you please explain a bit more (in pm).

[Frater.Akenu]

I do. And good call. ;)

Don't tell me you used similar process :-/

[Reav3R]

Thank you Akenu for your suggestion.

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Again, I'd like to clarify that I don't "have" any problems regarding fear and I wasn't actually asking a question. I just wanted to say something that popped into my mind...I'm not looking for methods to fight my own fear "here" because I have no fear (I'm generally interested in new methods I don't know for things).

[CFTraveler]

Actually I would like to avoid posting this publicly, I hope ButterflyWoman now understands why :) Ok, it's why I phrased it the way I did. :)

[Frater.Akenu]

Thank you Akenu for your suggestion.

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Again, I'd like to clarify that I don't "have" any problems regarding fear and I wasn't actually asking a question. I just wanted to say something that popped into my mind...I'm not looking for methods to fight my own fear "here" because I have no fear

Maybe we have just a communication problem here.


Yes, what you say is true. I think I may have misrepresented my idea by taking a direct route. It's not My idea is like taking a vaccine; deliberately injecting yourself with a virus, in order to gain resistance/immunity. The more you watch horror movies, the less you are terrified by them.

*
When an accident is so terrible that causes a mental breakdown, mind (sub-con) has the ability to trigger an associated (often extreme) defence mechanism (such as amnesia) to deal with the subject. Now combine a vaccine with a breakdown and you'll get fear immunity.

*
Hulk says: "Wanna know how I avoid getting angry? I'm always angry!". If you feel pain in your arm and cut it. You can't feel pain anymore because you no longer have the means (your arm) to do so. If you constantly smell a perfume for an hour, your body gets used to it and won't feel it anymore. The examples go on...


So, let's focus just on the idea of implanting fear to the sub-consciousness without any related ideas and questions.
One of my friends was very skeptical when it came to hypnosis and suggestions. Once, just for fun, he used an auto-suggestion method he had found in some book in the library and he suggested to himself that he wants to sh*t himself. This episode resulted in 2 months long digestive problems experience. I haven't asked him about details of the suggestion but I really doubt he wanted to keep doing so for full 2 months, I think even once was too much but the point is, once you implant anything in your sub-consciousness, you will have problems in getting rid of it.

[Reav3R]

Maybe we have just a communication problem here.So, let's focus just on the idea of implanting fear to the sub-consciousness without any related ideas and questions.One of my friends was very skeptical when it came to hypnosis and suggestions. Once, just for fun, he used an auto-suggestion method he had found in some book in the library and he suggested to himself that he wants to sh*t himself. This episode resulted in 2 months long digestive problems experience. I haven't asked him about details of the suggestion but I really doubt he wanted to keep doing so for full 2 months, I think even once was too much but the point is, once you implant anything in your sub-consciousness, you will have problems in getting rid of it.lol good one but still, couldn't he get rid of it the same way he got it?

[ButterflyWoman]

Don't tell me you used similar process :-/
Hah! No, not even close. :) I just agree that what you sent me is probably best kept as a private communication, rather than putting on a board where any random person can read it and maybe try it, without appropriate framework, preparartion, etc. ;)

[Frater.Akenu]

lol good one but still, couldn't he get rid of it the same way he got it?
That would be great, wouldn't it? Subconsciousness isn't a toy, it's part of your organism and it creates about 90% of your personality. Take it just like your arm, breaking bones in your arm takes less time than healing the bones (why, it's just reversed process of breaking bones, right?) and after cutting your arm off you have about 0% chance of growing it back, it's the very same thing with your sub-c.
Main reason is that sub-c is a network, when you are putting something there, you are putting it into one place. But getting rid of it means going through all nodes where the information was distributed.

[Reav3R]

That would be great, wouldn't it? Subconsciousness isn't a toy, it's part of your organism and it creates about 90% of your personality. Take it just like your arm, breaking bones in your arm takes less time than healing the bones (why, it's just reversed process of breaking bones, right?) and after cutting your arm off you have about 0% chance of growing it back, it's the very same thing with your sub-c.Main reason is that sub-c is a network, when you are putting something there, you are putting it into one place. But getting rid of it means going through all nodes where the information was distributed.So you basically can go into hypnosis (correct part of speech?) and then implant the idea that you don't know what fear is, then come out and fear is history. Easy as that. Right? Fear can't grow back because of what you said.

[Frater.Akenu]

So you basically can go into hypnosis (correct part of speech?) and then implant the idea that you don't know what fear is, then come out and fear is history. Easy as that. Right? Fear can't grow back because of what you said.

Ok, try to imagine it as 100 computers connected together and sharing information, by implanting the information of horrific dream you upload this information to the first computer. Then the message starts spreading and each computer containing this information will start affecting your conscious mind (yes, sub-c does affect consciousness a lot).
Then you implant another suggestion: "I know no fear", if we consider the amount of communication needed to spread this information among the whole network, it takes some time and you have no assurance that it will arrive on every computer (message can change during the time), it can also affect you in very unpleasant way if you lose fear of death and then you might just jump from the building or try to stop a train with your hands, that's why suggestions have to be well planned and very specific, you never know when they can fulfill.

[Reav3R]

Ok, try to imagine it as 100 computers connected together and sharing information, by implanting the information of horrific dream you upload this information to the first computer. Then the message starts spreading and each computer containing this information will start affecting your conscious mind (yes, sub-c does affect consciousness a lot).Then you implant another suggestion: "I know no fear", if we consider the amount of communication needed to spread this information among the whole network, it takes some time and you have no assurance that it will arrive on every computer (message can change during the time), it can also affect you in very unpleasant way if you lose fear of death and then you might just jump from the building or try to stop a train with your hands, that's why suggestions have to be well planned and very specific, you never know when they can fulfill.
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I'm not seeing the point with "won't spread" part. Why is it any different than wanting to **** yourself? Also you want to lose your fear not your mind! You're afraid of stopping a train with your hand but you also know (logically) that it's an insane idea. Let me make an example: You're afraid of snakes but you know they're poisonous, would you catch one with bare hands?

[CFTraveler]

I think you answered your own questions- some ideas will take more than others, since some have more of a hold on the subconscious than others, and some people's subconscious minds are easier to program than others.
So it's not a matter of the difference between not feeling fear or not soiling themselves, since they are so different (fear is a natural emotion that can arise from many situations, while the soiling example was specific to one situation.) It's just more complicated than that. Many variables.

[Frater.Akenu]

Exactly, CFTraveler, many variables :).

[ButterflyWoman]

Yup. And those many variables make for an incredibly unpredictable situation which could go all sorts of ways.