Why is this seemingly acceptable?

[Donald McGlinn]

I am blown away that snapping off someone's arm and displaying it in church is somehow acceptable. I find it morbid and disturbing what is done in the name of religion.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-10/catholics-flock-to-see-a-remarkable-relic/4306244

[CFTraveler]

This is fairly normal in Catholic custom- I don't know about any other religion that has saints (Anyone know if they do something similar in Tibetan Buddhism? They have so many similar beliefs, I wonder if they have relic worship) but in Catholicism a Saint's body part is 'special' and is probably thought to be as magical as the person was in life. So it really doesn't surprise me, as it's a carry over from medieval times, and all kinds of things were acceptable in medieval times, as you probably know.

p.s. It's not done "in the name of religion", it's done because of belief in supernatural powers. It's a totally different thing.

[ButterflyWoman]

This custom goes back to Rome, and before that, Greece. Orthodox Christianity is a very, very Roman religion. The veneration of physical remains of saints (heroes, in the Greek custom, which the Romans adopted, but which later became saints) is ancient.

I don't know if any other religions do this. Some have saints and heroes and so on, but I don't know about the veneration of physical remains, to be honest. I can't think of any just offhand. Might be a fun thing to research, though.

[DarkChylde]

This is fairly normal in Catholic custom- I don't know about any other religion that has saints (Anyone know if they do something similar in Tibetan Buddhism? They have so many similar beliefs, I wonder if they have relic worship)

In Islam we don't "worship" relics directly but there is practice that itself directly translates to "Holy Veneration".
We have many many saints , patrons , prophets , sufi babas , peers mureeds and disciples wherein whose items and relics (locks of hair , apparel , sandals , nails , staffs et al) receive utmost deification and included in many parts of different ceremonies (its a very little known fact that other than 5 times worth of daily prayers Islam is actually a very ritual based religion).
A small example would be that one of my grandmothers "most venerated" rosary has beads are that are made of clay where Muhammad had once resided in Mecca , it "taken out" once a year on Muhammad's birthday where one is allowed to press it to ones cheek and forehead as a part of larger "ritual".

Personally if you compare this to other activities of faith (euchrist to name one) this comes somewhat more innocuous.

[SiriusTraveler]

To me its just strange to watch a rotten arm laying there. Its dead meat in a glass case. Why worship it? I mean they too believe in life after death - hence the soul etc. My point is that if they believe in life after death and that the spirit leaves the body, why worship a dead arm.
Dont get me wrong, I get why they do what they do but to me its not worth much looking at an old arm and sometimes I just need to question stuff like this.

[IA56]

I don´t eighder understand this kind of worshipping, but I have never understood ritual thing´s so to speak.
I am happy I can believe what feels right to me, and I try as much as I can to live and let live so to speak, everyone is to take responsibillity of it´s own thinking and belief, and as far as I know, different things goes on in different places, and because I do not understand don´t mean it is wrong per se, and off course I wonder too...WHY....and I hope some day to get an answere...I hope that day to understand the answere I get :-)...so I can keep it as knowledge in my core...and grow.

BUT...

I also hope that knowing will help me be in and practis PUL....as I know ....LOVE is also to put limits what is not healthy ...and I am thinking if this kind of worshipping is healthy...and if not...then it will end....eventually.

[ButterflyWoman]

To me its just strange to watch a rotten arm laying there. Its dead meat in a glass case. Why worship it?
Well, I feel the same way. But I wasn't raised in a traditionally Orthodox tradition. If I had been, it would probably make more symbolic sense. To me, yeah, it's a rotting piece of flesh. The toe bone of St Whatisface shouldn't have any more mystical power than anything else, but it comes from very ancient times when the idea that matter might be endued with godly or magical power made more sense. The ancient mind (and the Medieval one) was a good deal more mystically inclined, I think.

[SiriusTraveler]

Yeah, exactly my thoughts to. That explains a great deal about why.

[Beekeeper]

So am I the only one who laughed out loud? And I teach in a Australian Catholic school. If the damned thing toured its way to our place, I'd have a hard time containing myself, even though St Francis is one of my favourites as far as saints go!

Strangely, something from my girlhood popped into memory today. We were always reminded of the saint Maria Goretti, who was deemed an appropriate role model for little girls because she resisted attempted rape and was subsequently stabbed so many times that she would not recover. Then she had the good nature to forgive her attacker. I'm scratching my head now wondering why being a victim of attempted rape makes you a saint and why anyone would want to hold up such a saint for little girls to venerate.

[IA56]

So am I the only one who laughed out loud? And I teach in a Australian Catholic school. If the damned thing toured its way to our place, I'd have a hard time containing myself, even though St Francis is one of my favourites as far as saints go!

Strangely, something from my girlhood popped into memory today. We were always reminded of the saint Maria Goretti, who was deemed an appropriate role model for little girls because she resisted attempted rape and was subsequently stabbed so many times that she would not recover. Then she had the good nature to forgive her attacker. I'm scratching my head now wondering why being a victim of attempted rape makes you a saint and why anyone would want to hold up such a saint for little girls to venerate.

I feel urged to say something here, I am sorry it will not come out right, but I will give it a try.....

Mostly all this kind of 0ld Knowledge what is not written down properly with the time will "fall out" the core and it leves the opportunity for missunderstanding and falsly way to interpret the meaning of the happening or it´s message...

To forgive is the key here...as I was told....to forgive all the way to eternity....it does not mean to forgive the action or the act...but the person who did it....there are so many actings what is nessessary for the evolution of the actor what is not easy to understand at earth level...but make´s much more sense at other levels so to speak.....

And when there is left out the outermost purpose or meaning it is not understandable at all..because all levels has it´s own purpose and truth....but the outermost one of the truths is to forgive everything ...and this is a very tough to do on the deepest level of our subconsius, but when this is done at the deepest level of us...then it will change even natur too...and healing happens at all levels...and this is therefore so important to understand but very hard to tell in right words to be understood right.... I am afraid I will be missunderstood but I dared to try .......

[CFTraveler]

I just want to comment, that one of the tests for sainthood is the disinterment of the body after a number of years and making sure it does not rot- if it rots it's not a saint. So chances are, the arm isn't a piece of rotten flesh- it's more than likely mummified and not 'too' gross.
I once visited a relic in the Cathedral of San Juan (I don't remember which Saint they have there) but you really couldn't see anything, or at least I don't remember what he looked like.
Funny how memory works.

[ButterflyWoman]

I was intrigued, so I looked it up. It's the relic of Carlos Manuel Rodriguez Santiago, the first Puerto Rican ever to be beatified. Apparently, he's still only Blessed and not Sainted, though according to Wikipedia, the odds are high that he'll eventually become a saint.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Manuel_Rodr%C3%ADguez_Santiago

Interesting stuff you pick up around this place, sometimes. :)

[CFTraveler]

I was thinking about that time- I was about six or seven years ago, and we were visiting our families. We decided to all get together and go to the castles (El Morro and San Cristobal) and while we were there, we decided to pop inside the Cathedral to look at the architecture, and I remember walking to the niche in which he is, I remember looking inside the 'cage' where the coffin (or box, or table) was, and I remember reading the placard and wondering how they could have a corpse there in the heat (no central air, but it's usually not hot because of the sea breeze, unless it's summertime.) I remember walking around the walk with everyone, and I also remember seeing how my grandma was getting frail, and starting to lose it. I remember seeing her standing looking mildly confused, in my mind as if it were yesterday- but I can't remember what the dead guy looked like, or even if it was a body or a skeleton or anything.
Like I said earlier, memory is interesting.
But I digress.

[Beekeeper]

To forgive is the key here

I have no problem with forgiveness and only mentioned it to be fair. I just think that the choice of saint was a poor one.

[ButterflyWoman]

Thinking a bit more about this.

There are still people who see various material substances or objects as being inherently magical or spiritual. Some people view and experience crystals/stones this way. Some people experience various mystical results from running water. Some people experience mystical effects from essential oils or incense. Is it really such a stretch to think that people might experience what they consider to be miracles from being in the presence of a saintly relic?

[SiriusTraveler]

Yeah.. just felt dumb,because I have a necklace that I think works in a certain "magical" way :S. Shouldn't be so fast to judge other beliefs.
But the more I think of it the more I believe that "magical" effects doen not come from the object itself, but instead from the belief in the magical properties. Im saying that belief = placebo effect. Not always perhaps, but many times. I certainly believe in the body and mind's capacity to heal and do other stuff so it wouldn't be a stretch to say that it could be placebo.

Hmm, why do I get deja vu by writing this... have to check my earlier posts so that Im not repeating msyelf.

Edit: Nope, didnt write that before. Oh well :)

[ButterflyWoman]

I have some enchanted/blessed/magical jewellery and other items, too. I think it's my own belief in them that makes them work, frankly. The key is not actually the object or substance or whatever, but the energy of believe behind it. The object just creates a kind of "window" through which reality can move and flow and change.

[CFTraveler]

We're cocreators with Source. Everything we call magic is the channeling of that awareness, or the making it automatic.
.02

[DarkChylde]

howcome there are are no living saints around these days?

or at least those with prominent status of sainthood (if you consider the delcaration of beatitude to be cardinal following death only)

[CFTraveler]

We can't know that, can we? I'm sure there are.

[DarkChylde]

googling "living saints" isn't substantive at all , i'd even settle for a paucity of anecdotal evidence .

i think the biggest hurdle here is separating the hype and the hyperbole from the veritable .

there must* be several candidates undergoing the process of canonization i'm sure ...but i find it genuinely very odd that there is no list (or even a compendium of sorts) of living people up and viable for candidacy in sainthood.
How remarkably sad.

[CFTraveler]

I'm not talking 'official religion sanctioned' saints. I'm talking about people that spend their entire lives helping others, sometimes exhibiting 'above what you expect from a regular human' characteristics. People that seemingly go through incredible hurdles only to get something positive out of the experience, and then strive to make other people's lives easier in some way.
If a person needs a religious organization to be considered a saint, chances are, there is some type of integrity transaction that happened, and it's a sad state indeed.
But that's just my opinion, as what I commented two posts ago.

[DarkChylde]

i'm inclined to agree (as in the lines get blurry when you think about "utmost altruism" and "sainthood")
and again if you add "real life heroes" in the throw that further obfuscates ,for instance the team and people "Extreme Makeover Home Edition" .

[ButterflyWoman]

We're cocreators with Source. Everything we call magic is the channeling of that awareness, or the making it automatic.
Agreed. And things like ritual (magickal or religious, which, as far as I can see, are pretty much the same thing in almost all respects), prayer, the use of sacred or otherwise mystical/symbolic objects, and so on are just ways in which the ego-self can open up and allow things to happen.

[sono2]

A few years back I was faced with a bizarre example of religious cognitive dissonance when a short documentary was shown at a temple I used to attend. It featured the funeral of one of the gurus; he was to be placed upright in a salt lined pit. But the body was kept above ground for however many days, & paraded around, strapped upright onto a chair with the legs in lotus position.

All well & good so far, but the commentator kept referring to "His Transcendental Body", when said transcendental object was clearly beginning to show signs of decomposition! I didn't know whether to laugh or cry; especially as the main lesson just before the film stressed that we are not the body. . . !

[DarkChylde]

A few years back I was faced with a bizarre example of religious cognitive dissonance when a short documentary was shown at a temple I used to attend. It featured the funeral of one of the gurus; he was to be placed upright in a salt lined pit. But the body was kept above ground for however many days, & paraded around, strapped upright onto a chair with the legs in lotus position.
All well & good so far, but the commentator kept referring to "His Transcendental Body", when said transcendental object was clearly beginning to show signs of decomposition! I didn't know whether to laugh or cry; especially as the main lesson just before the film stressed that we are not the body. . . !

hahaha! omg too funny :lol2: