Jesus Christ is ‘creative transformation’

[ButterflyWoman]

"So what does it mean to be the Christ? [...] Christ is creative transformation, which is the essence of God."

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/03/05/jesus-christ-is-creative-transformation/

Interesting piece of interpretive theology for those interested in such things. I happen to agree with it, for the most part. Christ is not about a person, it's about the transformation, going from "son of man" (i.e., purely human, with human drives and ideas and views) to being "son of God" (with a much broader understanding and a different image of self and of Self).

Anyway, I thought a couple of people here might enjoy reading that, so there it is. ;)

[IA56]

Yes, Jesus was the first human to tell that there is no death, he did bring the information what it takes to develop so called higher consiusness, and that we are not our bodies.

[ButterflyWoman]

I wouldn't say he was the first. Socrates came close to it, certainly. Buddha was all about transformation, too (though not necessarily in those words), and his teachings predate Jesus by several hundred years. Some Hindu sacred writings teach basically the same thing. Krishna comes to mind here, actually (particularly his encounter with Arjuna on the "battlefield").

In fact, throughout the New Testament there are plenty of indications that early Christians did, indeed, understand that "becoming Christ" had to do with transformation. They would symbolically die and be reborn as something new (this having little to nothing to do with the modern Christian concept of "born again").

The trouble with these teachings is that literal-minded people and those who Just Don't Get It always take the teachings of sages and mystics and the Awakened and turn them into something else. But that's another rant. ;)

[IA56]

You are right Butterflywomen, but he did bring it togeather as living rules to stop the barbarian living way, that they have to change living/feeling/acting ways too....I am pretty sure he was the first to tell he have seen Gods face :-)....and making this to be possible for everyone.....He did sure tell about PUL and how to practis it.

[ButterflyWoman]

he did bring it togeather as living rules to stop the barbarian living way
I wouldn't call first century Judaism barbaric, especially. And I don't think he was laying down rules, either. He was teaching, trying to get people to see and understand something that most of them didn't get and couldn't see. In fact, he specifically said that ALL of the law (i.e., rules) could be condense down to "love", which isn't a rule at all. (Paul later wrote more or less the same thing, though with very different words.)

In fact, Mohammed was the one who was trying to unite a bunch of barbaric tribes into a peaceful, productive people. Islam means, literally, peace. And it DOES have a lot of rules. :)


I am pretty sure he was the first to tell he have seen Gods face
Possibly. I haven't read every ancient scripture to know who might else have said something similar.


He did sure tell about PUL and how to practis it.
So did Buddha. And Krishna. And Socrates, for that matter. :)

I'm not arguing about the greatness of Jesus. I've got no problem with him at all, and that's putting it mildly. But I am an ancient historian, and one with a strong interest in sacred writings of all cultures. So I hope nobody thinks I'm putting down Jesus. I'm just making an observation based on rather a lot of study of things ancient.

[IA56]

:-) No no I am not thinking you put down anybody ..you are so dear...:-)

[Sinera]

Islam means, literally, peace.
This can be heard often from Muslims themselves, but isn't the ethymological literal meaning rather 'submission' and 'obedience' (to Allah)? Peace could of course be one possible interpretation or consequence out of this submission, but it is not literal, imv.

[IA56]

Now I will put my head on line of fire when saying this....The God/Allah are by religion meant as the same, right??...but that is not the infinity because God/Allah are the gate-keepers into the infinity or to the ONE...So off course they are very important ...

[ButterflyWoman]

This can be heard often from Muslims themselves, but isn't the ethymological literal meaning rather 'submission' and 'obedience' (to Allah)?
Possibly. Every Muslim I've ever known has told me it means "peace", but I don't speak Arabic, so you might be correct.

[ButterflyWoman]

Now I will put my head on line of fire when saying this....The God/Allah are by religion meant as the same, right??
Muslims consider that the Christian interpretation of God and the Jewish interpretation of God are all interpretations of Allah, yes. Jews and Christians don't always see it that way, though. In fact, Mulsims trace their ancestry to Abraham, the same as Jews do, though the descent is not from Issac but from Ishmael, the child Abraham had with his wife's maid (which the wife initiated because she couldn't have children, or so she thought....).

My view is that God is everything, all the time. Think of it like the sky. If you hold up a piece of paper with a Yahweh-shaped hole in it, you see, through the hole, the sky (God). If you hold up a Jesus-shaped opening, you see the sky through Jesus. If you hold up any shape or design or filter, you still see the sky, you still see God. But, hey, I'm a heretic. ;)

[IA56]

Muslims consider that the Christian interpretation of God and the Jewish interpretation of God are all interpretations of Allah, yes. Jews and Christians don't always see it that way, though. In fact, Mulsims trace their ancestry to Abraham, the same as Jews do, though the descent is not from Issac but from Ishmael, the child Abraham had with his wife's maid (which the wife initiated because she couldn't have children, or so she thought....).

My view is that God is everything, all the time. Think of it like the sky. If you hold up a piece of paper with a Yahweh-shaped hole in it, you see, through the hole, the sky (God). If you hold up a Jesus-shaped opening, you see the sky through Jesus. If you hold up any shape or design or filter, you still see the sky, you still see God. But, hey, I'm a heretic. ;)

Haha...you are right....the Sky does not have anything with this world to do...but Jesus and Allah has...haha...so they are the one´s who are wretched/mad at us...not the infinity...:-)...so this is why the bible can be taken so litterally..but still it has nothing to do with the Sky you are talking also about as I name infinity...:-)...and all and everyone are happy in theire own way to view the world....haha....

Cheers as some of you use to say :-)

[CFTraveler]

Hi Y'all. Just enjoying this thread.

[Sinera]

Is this 'creative transformation' concept in your view the same as the concept of "Christ Consciousness" which I very often hear being talked about in esoteric (or new age) circles? There are even CC-meditations and all that. It is similar to other mystic traditions. I'm not a Wiki-fan , but here we go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_consciousness

[IA56]

WoW..never read about Wiki about this...I got exhausted only to see so many explanations there are...huh!! Everyone should find something to hung on to ....I understand now more why I read so little, or was said that I do not have to read, this explanes it totally to me...haha...I am on very joyful mode today, and only want to laugh at everything...haha...sorry, not meant to offend anyone....:-)

[CFTraveler]

I noticed how in the Wiki article they made 'collective consciousness' a subset of philosophy and not of psychology. Not biased at all, are they?[/sarcasm]

[ButterflyWoman]

Is this 'creative transformation' concept in your view the same as the concept of "Christ Consciousness" which I very often hear being talked about in esoteric (or new age) circles?
Probably. But the article I linked to was about the work of a theologist, so there's that framework around it.

Personally, I don't put much stock in labels. I agree that the whole notion of transformation is really at the heart of what Jesus was trying to convey. That's mostly been lost in Orthodox Christianity and its many offshoots, in my opinion, where the emphasis is put on how you act rather than who you are. You're supposed to "act like Christ" rather than "being Christ". It's a real shame, because it's a brilliant message, and one I've found to be entirely and completely valid (and I had the experience before I knew about the transformation message; only recognised it in retrospect).

[Sinera]

That's mostly been lost in Orthodox Christianity and its many offshoots, in my opinion, where the emphasis is put on how you act rather than who you are. You're supposed to "act like Christ" rather than "being Christ".
I know from statements and some discussions with some Christians that there is even a weaker form of interpretations among many believers who range from orthodox views to the level of fundamentalist / literalist: It's just about the club membership. ;)

Hence I'd conclude and summarise tentatively these 3 levels (applies maybe to all religions):

"follow Christ" = fundamentalist (membership level, includes "being saved by confession of faith")
"act like Christ" = orthodox (deeds level, 'karmic' level)
"be(come) (like) Christ" = mystic (being level / transformative level)

makes sense?

[dreaming90]

Has anyone here (other than me) read The Spiritual Hitchiker's Guide to the Universe by Paul Rademacher (sp)? I believe that the author is now the president over at The Monroe Institute, but this book chronicles his going to seminary, becoming a pastor, leaving the ministry after discovering TMI, etc. He has some very interesting views on the teachings of Jesus and the archetypal Eden story. Very similar to Eckhart Tolle.

As someone who was raised as a "good Christian" and read the Bible cover to cover many times, I found it enlightening.

[IA56]

No I have not read about The Spiritual Hitchiker´s Guide by Paul Rademacher....He is not any longer the president of the Monroe Institute it is a women president today. It was Paul who guided me to Robert Bruce and to this comunity, I did email with him for short period telling him about my experiences and he did help me find RB.

I have experienced the power of faith....when I was abused in 1980-81 I had to put all my faith in him the abuser, and I was asked several times (my higher self) who I do believe in, and I always answered P...so they had to educate me about our indestructable core and take my fear away so I dared to put an end to the abuse...I asked also why they(my higher self and other helpers) do not take away this abuser, they told me that it does not work that way, they do educate me and booster my strength so I am able to do the work by my self but they can not interfere by theire hand´s so to speak.

Later when I met who called him Shaman I was invaded by all kind of spirits some of them I could see some was only like energy dots and sound like cricets when they comunicated with each others.....at this time I found Jesus to be very powerful allied ..the words of him come to me....they who dares to touch and harm the small one´s will be answering to him...even all hair is counted on your head, so valuble you are to our father in heaven..The Shaman told me that I do not ever have to say sorry or to forgive anyone, I got answere here too from a spirit who come purple/violet colore with gold strings in...and IT said...you shall forgive all the way to infinity.....Now I also remembered me drawing pentagrams those what RB has taught for protection.I was like 9 yrs old when drawing these pentagrams for protection...

What I am trying to say here is to give the honor to them who is worth to be honored....and I found all our saint´s, prohets etc to have done very good work trying to give the directions how to reach back home to infinity.

Please tell about the book you talk here about, I would appreachiate it very much, thank you.

[ButterflyWoman]

I know from statements and some discussions with some Christians that there is even a weaker form of interpretations among many believers who range from orthodox views to the level of fundamentalist / literalist: It's just about the club membership. ;)
Indeed. My mother was always more about the social aspect of being part of the club than about really communing with God. It's part of what made me eventually become entirely non-religious, or, rather, omni-religious. ;)

I like your breakdown of belief/faith. I think it works for pretty much all religions, too.

[IA56]

Indeed. My mother was always more about the social aspect of being part of the club than about really communing with God. It's part of what made me eventually become entirely non-religious, or, rather, omni-religious. ;)

I like your breakdown of belief/faith. I think it works for pretty much all religions, too.

Yes, this is the problem or fault many think it is enough to be a member of a comunity/church and it is enough, that the pastor are like negotiation a free ride to heaven, when all is for personal development, and has to be done by self.
Somehow our churches does not be clear on this matter, they does bind members to the comunity and do not guide them for personal development. I remember when I was a member of the church there was many who was so interested to hear about my view they found me so "in love" with God and they wanted to hear more about how it is possible, they them self had "inhereted" theire belief, it was not own disscovery...So I was also told not to stagnet in dogmas, and I found church not to be any growing place for me, and soon after this I went through the roof of religion into the infinity, and I am happy to dared to leave the church comunity and walk in the cold alone....Now I have the total infinity and ALL is in there.

[ButterflyWoman]

I never really "left" any church. I just kind of outgrew it. Not in a derogatory or mean way, but as my awareness became less and less limited, I just realised there was no point at all in observing the rituals and so forth (and I'm not the sort of person who likes to join social clubs, so that wasn't something I needed or wanted, especially with my mother's example). I view religion with great interest and warmth and I have genuine interest in it. I still study aspects of Christianity regularly (textual criticism, Biblical archeology and history, etc.), and I am still captivated by the Bible, which is, after all, a collection of ancient sacred texts (ancient history major ;)). But I just got to where I didn't need any of it, and I thought, "Oh, this is all fine and good and if it works for you, I'm happy for you, but it's not for me". For me, the real meaning behind and within the rituals was obvious, and I could no longer put any stock in the rituals, or participate in them, without feeling slightly foolish. I mean, it's OKAY, there's nothing wrong with any of it, but I can commune with Christ without the bread and grape juice (or wine, if I happened to attend the right kind of church ;)). I can go directly to God, without any club members to help me. God is ever-present, always, for me. In fact, I am One with God; God is ME, and therefore, I am God (though with a much more limited viewpoint, obviously ;)).

Which, of course, is part of what Jesus was teaching. That you don't need a priest as a go-between, that you don't need to be religious, and that the religious are often the biggest hypocrites of all, and that they're mostly the blind leading the blind. I so totally get that now. Which is why I'm still interested in Jesus. He knew what he was talking about. ;)

[IA56]

Yes...nodds in agreement....:-)

[Sinera]

I read this article (http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/10/waking-up-hurts-2484960.html) "Waking Up Hurts" and was reminded of this thread, especially by its last paragraphs. This website actually is more of a sometimes dubious conspiracy type but with occasional good articles, also on spirituality. It's actually been linked from the David Icke site which I am reading stuff on sometimes.

I find his writing very 'inspirational' (despite his strange options for capitalization of words) and what he says about Jesus in the end strikes a chord for me:


The world is based on the ego lie of separation which necessitates salvation schemes and atonement rituals which Jesus routinely condemned in public. They strung him up as quickly as possible and crucified him as a dangerous heretic. Later, he became the poster boy for blood sacrifice. This is an example of how the Truth is weaponized. Jesus had great credibility among the people, he was intensely loved, he was the greatest mouthpiece the Pharisees and Rome could ever hope for, so he became the “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”. In this way, the ego lie was kept in place and Jesus was used like a nail in that coffin. The ego lie is the most fundamental premise of the world, which is why we have scientific materialism, the idea that consciousness comes from the brain, and religious superstition which imagines parental deities who must be placated and obeyed, a clearly childish context. An adult context would be heart felt love communion with That, not mommy-daddy appeasement rituals.
- Robert Cinque

:thumbsup:

[ButterflyWoman]

Wow, that's a good article. A lot of the things the author says are the same things I've said, and, yes, this is ego-based, but the fact that the author writes things I might write, and clearly knows what it is to be in that state of awakening makes me feel like less of a freak (told you it was egoistic, but there it is). So glad you shared the link. Thank you.