Kundalini and God-realization

[Freawaru]

Hi All,

recently I came across this part of the Uddhava Gita:



The Farewell Message of Lord Krishna

Lord Krishna, on the eve of His departure from the arena of this world, after finishing the difficult task of establishing righteousness (Dharma), gave His last parting discourse to His cousin brother Uddhava, who was also His dearest devotee and follower. At the end of a long sermon comprising more than one thousand verses, Uddhava said: O Lord, I think the pursuit of yoga as You narrated to Arjuna and now to me, is very difficult, indeed, for most people; because, it entails control of the unruly senses. Please tell me a short, simple, and easy way to God-realization. Lord Krishna, upon Uddhava's request, gave the essentials of Self-realization for the
modern age as follows:

(1) Do your duty to the best of your abilities for Me, without any selfish motive, and remember Me at all times --- before starting a work, at the completion of a task, and while inactive. (2) Practice looking upon all creatures as Myself in thought, word, and deed; and mentally bow down to them. (3) Awaken your dormant Kundalini power and perceive --- through the activities of mind, senses, breathing, and emotions --- that the power of God is within you at all times and is constantly doing all the work using you as a mere instrument.


Does this make sense to anyone?

(BTW the "Me" in this text, i.e. Lord Krishna, is - for Vedics - a synonym for God - just as Jesus Christ is for Christians.)

[CFTraveler]

(1) Do your duty to the best of your abilities for Me, without any selfish motive, and remember Me at all times --- before starting a work, at the completion of a task, and while inactive. (2) Practice looking upon all creatures as Myself in thought, word, and deed; and mentally bow down to them. (3) Awaken your dormant Kundalini power and perceive --- through the activities of mind, senses, breathing, and emotions --- that the power of God is within you at all times and is constantly doing all the work using you as a mere instrument. Frea: If you could refresh my memory- what aspect of God was Krishna supposed to be? (I know he was a king, and he was depicted as blue, and for some reason I associate him with God as man but I'm not sure- it's been years since my eastern religions classes and I don't remember.) Then I can give a more fleshed out opinion. (Other than the obvious God is everywhere and mindfulness is key, etc.)

[Freawaru]

Ah, good question. The Hindus actually do not agree on this with each other. They seem to all agree that Krishna and all the other avatars (Rama, Buddha, etc) are one and the same - just different incarnations during different times.

Krishna himself said in the Bhagavad Gita that he is Brahman. But the general lore is that he (and the other avatars) is an incarnation of Vishnu (interesting, he does not agree to this in the Bhagavad Gita, calling Vishnu a half-god).

As to how much the avatars are God there is also a discrepance between the different Hindu schools and teachings. Some say Krishna is fully Brahman, just a personified version, others say that they are just aspects of God, not having full access to all of the Divine though being ONE with it.

In the teaching of Swami Prabhupada Brahman is the delocalized, unpersonified Divine, Atman the localized unpersonified Divine and Krishna the personified Divine. Other Hindus do not believe that the Divine can be a personality in the first place.

Personally I see an analogy to the question wether Jesus IS God or not. He himself said "I and my Father are ONE" but also "my Father is greater than me" and "neither the angels nor the Son knows, only the Father does" (quoting form memory).

[Wolf_Thor]

It seems fairly self-explanatory. What is it that you'd like to know specifically?

[Wolf_Thor]

I can say, based on my experience, the single most important thing relating to kundalini is the breath.
In yoga there is much talk of the central channel sushumna. Channeling the breath (life-force) along this different path, you learn another way to breathe. With practice, you can clearly feel it- it's very much like a second breath. So, you learn to distinguish the "surface breath" from the "subtle breath".
And you can feel the current moving along your spine when the central channel is being used (generating the subtle breath).

It is said that the goal is to attain a circular breath. I've once had this experience happen to me spontaneously. And I'm currently trying to achieve it through conscious, willful effort.

[Freawaru]

It seems fairly self-explanatory. What is it that you'd like to know specifically?

My own Path started with asamprajnanta-samadhi (didn't know this name for it at the time). The experience of The Beyond, The Fourth, Unio Mystica or whatever it is called. I would describe it as being without all concepts of my mind.

While in many other Paths these kind of experiences happen only after many years of practice, they happend spontaniously for me right at the beginning (I was 12 years old). I had practiced maybe half a year of hatha yoga regularily and succded intentionally with various low samadhis (merging with music, merging with body limbs, etc) and samatha. The vipassana came naturally, too. A simple switch of perspective but leading to the same strange Beyond as the asamprajnanta-samadhi.

From what I read recently I am on the so-called "Direct Path", that - in contrast to a Cosmological Path - begins with jumping back and forth between samsara and enlightment states (http://www.sunyaprajna.com/Advaita/Atmananda.html) .

When people, who are on the Cosmological Path reach these enlightment states they are usually prepared for it and it is controlled and stabilized. Not so for me. So now I am trying to get the "missing pieces", if you know what I mean.

Krishna was asked for a way without "controlling the senses" but at least in my case the vipassana was reached after the contol of the senses (if I understand the phrase correctly).



(1) Do your duty to the best of your abilities for Me, without any selfish motive, and remember Me at all times --- before starting a work, at the completion of a task, and while inactive.


To REMEMBER Krishna already implys to know Krishna, does it not? In the Bhagavad Gita Krishna said that not everybody remembers Him and when dying people go to where they remember, this can be a place of relatives and spirits, etc or Him.

He also talks about "without selfish motive" and in my experience selfishless is a result of the control of the senses (especially the inner senses) that leads to either an annihilation of the I-function or a detachment from it. So basically, I do not see how this advice from Krishna can be used without at least once been able to control the senses so that the detachment and vipassana can be reached.

It might be different for other people and other Paths, this is why I ask. Looking for missing links.

[Freawaru]

I can say, based on my experience, the single most important thing relating to kundalini is the breath.
In yoga there is much talk of the central channel sushumna. Channeling the breath (life-force) along this different path, you learn another way to breathe. With practice, you can clearly feel it- it's very much like a second breath. So, you learn to distinguish the "surface breath" from the "subtle breath".
And you can feel the current moving along your spine when the central channel is being used (generating the subtle breath).

It is said that the goal is to attain a circular breath. I've once had this experience happen to me spontaneously. And I'm currently trying to achieve it through conscious, willful effort.

I do not recall any experience of this other breath. The few asanas I practiced from a book adviced to concentrate on different body parts (usually close to the spine) during the different asanas. No energy rising like in NEW or focus on chakras. I also experiemented with different kinds of breath but except feeling relaxed and good I do not recall any sensation until I would either begin to concentrate on an object or observe my mind. I think my awareness of energy is completely underdevelloped, if Kundalini would rise I would probably not even be aware of it :-( (I never even remember the upward Path to the Beyond, only the fall down into my personality again).

Could you please describe the sushumna technique you use?

[Wolf_Thor]

It seems fairly self-explanatory. What is it that you'd like to know specifically?

My own Path started with asamprajnanta-samadhi (didn't know this name for it at the time). The experience of The Beyond, The Fourth, Unio Mystica or whatever it is called. I would describe it as being without all concepts of my mind.

While in many other Paths these kind of experiences happen only after many years of practice, they happend spontaniously for me right at the beginning (I was 12 years old). I had practiced maybe half a year of hatha yoga regularily and succded intentionally with various low samadhis (merging with music, merging with body limbs, etc) and samatha. The vipassana came naturally, too. A simple switch of perspective but leading to the same strange Beyond as the asamprajnanta-samadhi.

From what I read recently I am on the so-called "Direct Path", that - in contrast to a Cosmological Path - begins with jumping back and forth between samsara and enlightment states (http://www.sunyaprajna.com/Advaita/Atmananda.html) .

When people, who are on the Cosmological Path reach these enlightment states they are usually prepared for it and it is controlled and stabilized. Not so for me. So now I am trying to get the "missing pieces", if you know what I mean.

Krishna was asked for a way without "controlling the senses" but at least in my case the vipassana was reached after the contol of the senses (if I understand the phrase correctly).



(1) Do your duty to the best of your abilities for Me, without any selfish motive, and remember Me at all times --- before starting a work, at the completion of a task, and while inactive.


To REMEMBER Krishna already implys to know Krishna, does it not? In the Bhagavad Gita Krishna said that not everybody remembers Him and when dying people go to where they remember, this can be a place of relatives and spirits, etc or Him.

He also talks about "without selfish motive" and in my experience selfishless is a result of the control of the senses (especially the inner senses) that leads to either an annihilation of the I-function or a detachment from it. So basically, I do not see how this advice from Krishna can be used without at least once been able to control the senses so that the detachment and vipassana can be reached.

It might be different for other people and other Paths, this is why I ask. Looking for missing links.

Honestly, for me, I've found that all of these rules that you so often hear tend to get in the way more than anything. That is not to say that they do not have great value. But, based on personal experience, I've come to strip away and drop all of the rules and concepts that don't seem to serve me any longer. I do my practice as if I were doing any exercise. I remain open and I try not to get too attached to any concepts that come into my mind. For a time, they might be useful for where you are. But when it's time to drop them, they must be dropped.
The teachings of others can be of great benefit to us. But if you reach a point when those teachings are causing conflict within yourself, that may be a sign that it's time for you to take that next step and go beyond the teachings. Because remember, those teachings remain static, while you, on the other hand, continue to grow and evolve.

Freawaru said:

It might be different for other people and other Paths, this is why I ask. Looking for missing links.
This makes me happy, Freawaru! :D

[Wolf_Thor]

I can say, based on my experience, the single most important thing relating to kundalini is the breath.
In yoga there is much talk of the central channel sushumna. Channeling the breath (life-force) along this different path, you learn another way to breathe. With practice, you can clearly feel it- it's very much like a second breath. So, you learn to distinguish the "surface breath" from the "subtle breath".
And you can feel the current moving along your spine when the central channel is being used (generating the subtle breath).

It is said that the goal is to attain a circular breath. I've once had this experience happen to me spontaneously. And I'm currently trying to achieve it through conscious, willful effort.

I do not recall any experience of this other breath. The few asanas I practiced from a book adviced to concentrate on different body parts (usually close to the spine) during the different asanas. No energy rising like in NEW or focus on chakras. I also experiemented with different kinds of breath but except feeling relaxed and good I do not recall any sensation until I would either begin to concentrate on an object or observe my mind. I think my awareness of energy is completely underdevelloped, if Kundalini would rise I would probably not even be aware of it :-( (I never even remember the upward Path to the Beyond, only the fall down into my personality again).

Could you please describe the sushumna technique you use?

When you practice regular energy raising for long enough, one thing that should be noticed is a distinct shift in your breathing pattern. At first it may even feel like you're suffocating, but that's not the case at all. In the beginning, this shift was all I noticed- it wasn't until about 2 years afterwords that I noticed clearly a separate breath. Once you can feel this subtle breath, it’s just a matter of focusing on it and trying to develop it, which is a lot more difficult than it sounds.

[Freawaru]

My pleasure, Patty :-D

[Freawaru]

Thank you, Wolf Thor, I will look out for the second breath :-)

As to moving beyond the teachings, yes and no. It is the other way round for me. I never had a teacher - except for the internal one of course. And this internal teacher tells me for some years now to compare and study the scripture of the different religions and paths.

I am not quite sure what this understanding scripture excercise is usefull for . We will see... ;-)