logical justification for walking on water, pk, telekinesis, etc...

[thedevil]

All philosophy, mathematics, physics, etc... is based on logical proof such as the theory of gravity or theorems and postulates in math

- the mind is the self (I think therefore I am)

- it is abstract and scientifically not well understood. It is generally thought to be the collection of impulses, nerves, etc... and the activity thereof but if that were true then it should be logical to deduce that with enough complexity a machine could also thhink yet the biggest super computers on earth are said to contain the awareness of a bug and there are many animals such as elephants that are understood to have much larger brains yet are apparently not self aware the only possible conclusion could be that the brain. Is a tool for the mind-spirit that is the self just the same as a calculator is a tool. The mind is a spirit because it is energy that perceives its own awareness and is likened to a fire that constantly consumes knowledge, information, experience, etc... without tiring or ceasing

- the mind is the self (I think therefore I am)

- it is abstract and scientifically not well understood. It is generally thought to be the collection of impulses, nerves, etc... and the activity thereof but if that were true then it should be logical to deduce that with enough complexity a machine could also thhink yet the biggest super computers on earth are said to contain the awareness of a bug and there are many animals such as elephants that are understood to have much larger brains yet are apparently not self aware the only possible conclusion could be that the brain. Is a tool for the mind-spirit that is the self just the same as a calculator is a tool. The mind is a spirit because it is energy that perceives its own awareness and is likened to a fire that constantly consumes knowledge, information, experience, etc... without tiring or ceasing

- - the mind controls the brain and central nervous system and in turn the entire body etc... in a non aware being such as a machine or insect actions are automatic and more or less dependent on programming in the sentient mind however actions are consciously considered and then acted upon. For example the hand moving.

- the universe is like an ocean. If a single drop of water were to fall into the ocean it would disturb the entirety of that ocean. The self is like the single drop of water in the vast ocean. In order for the self to move within the ocean all other "drops" must be moved/relocated the mind is what moves the self and the self in turn moves all of existence therefore the self actually moves all of existence and thought is controlling what is considered to be reality... this so called reality is equivalent to a dream in which one must become lucid/aware and not fall into ignorance/false awakening or be controlled by fear, etc...,,

[heliac]

- it is abstract and scientifically not well understood. It is generally thought to be the collection of impulses, nerves, etc... and the activity thereof but if that were true then it should be logical to deduce that with enough complexity a machine could also thhink yet the biggest super computers on earth are said to contain the awareness of a bug and there are many animals such as elephants that are understood to have much larger brains yet are apparently not self aware the only possible conclusion could be that the brain. Is a tool for the mind-spirit that is the self just the same as a calculator is a tool. The mind is a spirit because it is energy that perceives its own awareness and is likened to a fire that constantly consumes knowledge, information, experience, etc... without tiring or ceasing


Ooh as i was reading this part, i remembered something from a neuroanatomy class i took. About the elephant having a big brain but not big intelligence or awareness. Apparently research is starting to show that intelligence/self awareness has more to do with neural complexity than size.

Elephants are VERY intelligent and socially complex animals. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they were self aware. Another animal that shows sentience is dolphins. so much so that it seems that dolphins give each other names. I think there was an article on this somewhere on AD.

Anyways, as far as a logical justification for walking on water. I won't be able to take that action on faith, it is something i would need to see to believe, as well as any other Pk feat. Or if someone who has shown they can do these type of things could show me how to do it myself, that would be preferable.

[CFTraveler]

I think elephants are as intelligent as we are, it's just that we measure intelligence in an anthropocentric way- and they just are too different than we are and don't talk the way we do. (They communicate with each other, on a different hearing scale, so we can't hear what they are saying to each other- using their trunks to produce subsonic sounds and their ears hear so much more than we do).
They remember things that happened fifty years ago (do you?) and know exactly where their ancestors, even the ones they never met, are laid to rest. They also recognize each other even if they haven't seen each other for a long time, and are extremely self-sacrificing for the good of the herd.
So the notion that they are not self aware is artificial, IMO.

[thedevil]

I can definitely see the wisdom in your posts Heliac & and CFTraveler but I think it would also stand to reason that we should be able to create an artificial awareness yet the sad truth is even the largest of supercomputers that fill a whole room and contain all of human knowledge and more
Still do not have self awareness so really those are all just speculations although I will admit I do feel Much the same way deep down I want to refrain from assuming anything as I want to be as devoted to the truth as possible. I will also like to note that some years ago there was some experiments
in Germany where rat brains were grown into and on a microchip which should be proof that the brain and machine/electronic circuit are perfectly compatible and to me that seems like further proof that the brain and mind are two separate things and the brain is little more than an organic calculator.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=ms-android-google&source=android-home&sky=mrdr&site=webhp&q=rat+brains+grown+on+microchip&oq=rat+brains+grown+on+microchip&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=13810l47058l0l47951l29l29l0l19l19l0l363l235 4l0.3.5.2l10l0&mvs=0

[heliac]

Why do you think we should be able to create artificial awareness? Maybe we can and we just are not there yet. I agree that we can't assume that we know all the answers. I guess there could be some missing pieces when it comes to creating artificial awareness.Just because there are missing pieces doesn't mean we have to automatically come to a conclusion that mind and body are separate.

my 2 cents on that.

[CFTraveler]

in Germany where rat brains were grown into and on a microchip which should be proof that the brain and machine/electronic circuit are perfectly compatible and to me that seems like further proof that the brain and mind are two separate things and the brain is little more than an organic calculator. Oh, I agree that the brain is an interface for a 'higher mind' (aka superconscious mind), but my point was that I believe animals also interface with this Superconscious Mind also, it's just that we are self aware only of ourselves, and thus tend to separate ourselves from other organic beings, thinking we're the only ones.

As for my working hypothesis (or provisional belief, if you like,) it's that the whole of reality is a projection of Mind (being God's Mind, or Superconscious Mind), and we're bits of this awareness having an experience of separation, which is one way to experience.
So the separation is of awareness or perception.

[thedevil]

Oh, I agree that the brain is an interface for a 'higher mind' (aka superconscious mind), but my point was that I believe animals also interface with this Superconscious Mind also, it's just that we are self aware only of ourselves, and thus tend to separate ourselves from other organic beings, thinking we're the only ones.

As for my working hypothesis (or provisional belief, if you like,) it's that the whole of reality is a projection of Mind (being God's Mind, or Superconscious Mind), and we're bits of this awareness having an experience of separation, which is one way to experience.
So the separation is of awareness or perception.


I agree with most all of what you say I think.

Specifically I tend to believe its like you say that we are only aspects of God's mind. In this sense thought is ironically much more tangible than what most perceive to be solid reality.

In true "reality" for example nothing is actually "solid" persay as all is energy. Thought/awareness is like a pure energy

I am sure you also know from Geometry that there is no such thing as a straight line also. That's because all "reality" is curved such as in the case of the earth spinning, atoms spinning, milky way spinning, universe, etc... everything is actually spherical in nature and straight lines are an illusion (think of pi 3.1415926... and how such a perceivably fundamental facet of existence is so mysterious and not well understood). So, as you would deduce, most things are illusory misconceptions about the nature of reality. I like how its described in Buddhism as mindfulness and Maya (illusion) and Brahma (truth/spirit/God)

[Archimedes]

All philosophy, mathematics, physics, etc... is based on logical proof such as the theory of gravity or theorems and postulates in math

- the mind is the self (I think therefore I am)

- it is abstract and scientifically not well understood. It is generally thought to be the collection of impulses, nerves, etc... and the activity thereof but if that were true then it should be logical to deduce that with enough complexity a machine could also thhink yet the biggest super computers on earth are said to contain the awareness of a bug and there are many animals such as elephants that are understood to have much larger brains yet are apparently not self aware the only possible conclusion could be that the brain. Is a tool for the mind-spirit that is the self just the same as a calculator is a tool. The mind is a spirit because it is energy that perceives its own awareness and is likened to a fire that constantly consumes knowledge, information, experience, etc... without tiring or ceasing

- the mind is the self (I think therefore I am)

- it is abstract and scientifically not well understood. It is generally thought to be the collection of impulses, nerves, etc... and the activity thereof but if that were true then it should be logical to deduce that with enough complexity a machine could also thhink yet the biggest super computers on earth are said to contain the awareness of a bug and there are many animals such as elephants that are understood to have much larger brains yet are apparently not self aware the only possible conclusion could be that the brain. Is a tool for the mind-spirit that is the self just the same as a calculator is a tool. The mind is a spirit because it is energy that perceives its own awareness and is likened to a fire that constantly consumes knowledge, information, experience, etc... without tiring or ceasing

- - the mind controls the brain and central nervous system and in turn the entire body etc... in a non aware being such as a machine or insect actions are automatic and more or less dependent on programming in the sentient mind however actions are consciously considered and then acted upon. For example the hand moving.

- the universe is like an ocean. If a single drop of water were to fall into the ocean it would disturb the entirety of that ocean. The self is like the single drop of water in the vast ocean. In order for the self to move within the ocean all other "drops" must be moved/relocated the mind is what moves the self and the self in turn moves all of existence therefore the self actually moves all of existence and thought is controlling what is considered to be reality... this so called reality is equivalent to a dream in which one must become lucid/aware and not fall into ignorance/false awakening or be controlled by fear, etc...,,

Good statement, to simplify, our physical vehicle (our body) is an antenna for the source consciousness. We are energy not physicality, yet for some reason we only associate with it!!!!!!!! Why?

[Archimedes]

I think you would like to read the book "The Biology of Belief". This book is written by a renowned cell biologist on cellular behavior. the behavior pattern in my opinion is that of a receiver. A good book for anyone here!

[ButterflyWoman]

I don't have any comment on walking on water. I've never seen it, nor do I have any experience of it. I do have some thoughts on elephants, though. ;)


Another animal that shows sentience is dolphins. so much so that it seems that dolphins give each other names. I think there was an article on this somewhere on AD.
I may have mentioned it. ;)

Elephants also recognise their dead. If they come across the bones of a dead elephant, they very carefully pick up the bones, particularly the skull, and examine them very carefully. They run their trunks all over the skull, and there's some indication that they can recognise not only that it's a deceased elephant, but if it was was one they knew, part of their own herd or family. They probably have names, as well, but we can't understand elephant language. Oh, and they paint, not only things they've been taught, but their own unique compositions. Some of their paintings are actually pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk

http://www.elephantartgallery.com/

I think any creature that intentionally creates art as a form of self-expression has to be self-aware.

In fact, some birds have been shown to have a degree of self-awareness, about that of a human toddler. It's all pretty self-centred and based on things like physical comfort, boredom, etc., but they do show clear awareness and capability to carry on conversations. Also, I seem to recall a bird (maybe a magpie, can't remember now) which absolutely recognises its own reflection, which is something humans can't manage until they're about four or so. Again, it's self-awareness. I think a lot more animals have self-awareness than historically credited to them. Even my little pet mice, which are not especially complex creatures, communicate to me and other family members and to each other (things like, "Hey, my food dish is empty, fill it up!" and "Hey, you stopped petting me, pet me more!" and so on). I don't know if it's really self-awareness, but it's definitely awareness and response to their environment in sometimes surprisingly sophisticated ways.

[Archimedes]

Ooh as i was reading this part, i remembered something from a neuroanatomy class i took. About the elephant having a big brain but not big intelligence or awareness. Apparently research is starting to show that intelligence/self awareness has more to do with neural complexity than size.

Elephants are VERY intelligent and socially complex animals. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they were self aware. Another animal that shows sentience is dolphins. so much so that it seems that dolphins give each other names. I think there was an article on this somewhere on AD.

Anyways, as far as a logical justification for walking on water. I won't be able to take that action on faith, it is something i would need to see to believe, as well as any other Pk feat. Or if someone who has shown they can do these type of things could show me how to do it myself, that would be preferable.

I agree with what you said about elephants/dolfins

The mere fact that elephants morn other deceased (pack) elephants shows great awareness, and loving care. I trait that homo sapiens sometimes display.